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dtw2hyd
Posts: 8826
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:39 pm

sxf24 wrote:
As to he PR angle, Bloomberg has some of the best aviation journalists of any mainstream publication. I trust they wouldn't write a fake story.

I guess you haven't read masterpieces by Bloomberg in India and Middle East. In these regions journalists will plant stories for free food. Now anybody with access to newswire can plant a story and it shows up on our mainstream media next morning.

sxf24 wrote:
Also, I suggest you edit your post unless you can prove there is an airline spending more on publicity than leases.

Do a crude math. 240 planes x avg $1Million/plane/month x 12 months is $2.88 Billion less than $3.2 Billion/year marketing and publicity budget.
All posts are just opinions.
 
bourbon
Posts: 171
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:58 pm

keesje wrote:
FGITD wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I have two questions:

1). Since this happened in SEA with Boeing's HQ just down the road - why didn't they just get it directly from Boeing?

2). IF this is true about DL - it's completely immature. Please correct me if I'm wrong - but as far as I'm aware DL has no 777 flights ex-SEA currently, so even if it was their last part they have no immediate need for it and could easily sell it to EK for a profit and just order another one.



Boeing might not have one immediately available. I'm sure they could source I've pretty quickly, but it's not as simple as just driving down to the shop to pick one up.

Also, think on the larger scale. Maybe no flights for Delta 777s in that immediate area, but parts do travel. If that's the last one, you don't want to give it away just in case anything should happen


- something happened. AOG, 300 people waiting while you order to uninstall a part. Probably a fatneck mngr that never expected this to become public, now biting his lip while trying to hide behind a procedure.

Once that part is out the door of DL stores it is Emirates' part. Delta cannot request it back once it has left. A contract was signed. The part most certainly would not have been removed had it been installed. If removed it would have had to go back to DL in ATL and go through inspection and be deemed serviceable to get back into DL stock.

If it was Delta's last part and they decided not to give it up that part never left Delta's hands in SEA Stores.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1064
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
As to he PR angle, Bloomberg has some of the best aviation journalists of any mainstream publication. I trust they wouldn't write a fake story.

I guess you haven't read masterpieces by Bloomberg in India and Middle East. In these regions journalists will plant stories for free food. Now anybody with access to newswire can plant a story and it shows up on our mainstream media next morning.


Ah, the "if you disagree with the reporting it must be fake news," defense. Tough to have any type of reasonable discussion with that type of logic.

dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Also, I suggest you edit your post unless you can prove there is an airline spending more on publicity than leases.


Do a crude math. 240 planes x avg $1Million/plane/month x 12 months is $2.88 Billion less than $3.2 Billion/year marketing and publicity budget.


Who has a $3.2 BILLION marketing budget?!?
 
737max8
Posts: 700
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:00 pm

If only Boeing was a giant Wal-mart of airplane parts like some seem to think...this happening in SEA is just purely a coincidence.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3997
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
As to he PR angle, Bloomberg has some of the best aviation journalists of any mainstream publication. I trust they wouldn't write a fake story.

I guess you haven't read masterpieces by Bloomberg in India and Middle East. In these regions journalists will plant stories for free food. Now anybody with access to newswire can plant a story and it shows up on our mainstream media next morning.

sxf24 wrote:
Also, I suggest you edit your post unless you can prove there is an airline spending more on publicity than leases.

Do a crude math. 240 planes x avg $1Million/plane/month x 12 months is $2.88 Billion less than $3.2 Billion/year marketing and publicity budget.


According to their 2016 report
Leases were 8,085 m AED ($2.2bn)
Sales and marketing 5,893 m AED ($1.6bn)

Depreciation and amortisation (I guess mostly on owned aircraft) 8,000 m AED ($2.17bn)

Fred
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bourbon
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:12 pm

coolian2 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
If Delta had simply said no, that's fair play. To install the part, then demand to yank it? That's pathetic.


Which is a big part of why the story the way Emirates tells it is rather hard to believe. What legal authority does Delta have to demand the part be removed after it's been installed? Even if it hadn't been installed, but had been handed over to Emirates' possession, I'm struggling to understand how even refusing to process the payment would have given Delta authority to do so.

"We aren't going to continue the lease arrangement and require return immediately"

If the part is out the door it is simply not possible for Delta to require it to be returned immediately. Loan Borrow agreement was signed which is a contract between the carriers. If Delta did in fact demand it be returned (which I find it hard to believe) it would be industry suicide for them. No other airline in the world would assist them in an AOG situation. Airline TechOp's departments do not care about other airlines being a competitor. They care about getting their aircraft off the gate for an on time departure or minimal delays and in order to do that they rely on the help of other airlines.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:13 pm

sxf24 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
As to he PR angle, Bloomberg has some of the best aviation journalists of any mainstream publication. I trust they wouldn't write a fake story.

I guess you haven't read masterpieces by Bloomberg in India and Middle East. In these regions journalists will plant stories for free food. Now anybody with access to newswire can plant a story and it shows up on our mainstream media next morning.


Ah, the "if you disagree with the reporting it must be fake news," defense. Tough to have any type of reasonable discussion with that type of logic.


What proof Emirates or Bloomberg presented here against Delta? Until then it is fake news.

It is the unfortunate side effect of globalization and 24 hr news cycle, just because they were previously reputed brand names doesn't change the way their franchises operate locally, it just gives them a global platform.
All posts are just opinions.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:31 pm

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
Link/Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -300-spare

Another meat cleaver thrown in the Delta vs Emirates / ME3 battle:

"Mechanical fault stalled Seattle-Dubai service for six hours"

"Gulf carrier says U.S. rival located part but wouldn’t sell it"

" A Boeing Co. 777 due to depart the American city at 9 a.m. on Feb. 2 was held up by a mechanical issue requiring the replacement of a minor hydraulic component, Emirates says. While the part was sourced from Delta’s local engineering office and installed on the plane, a senior manager at the U.S. carrier’s Atlanta base later ordered that it be removed, it claims."

Last time a Delta B777 sat at a gate blocking the QR inaugural DOH-ATL flight which was operated with an A380 (1 time deal only)


This is a pile of BUNK!! If they bought the part from Delta? Then Delta can't do a THING about their problem nor cause them a PROBLEM!!
If they Borrowed the part from Delta? Then they have to have access to Delta's spares Pool...Then Delta has to give them the part !! If they Haven't Joined the spares Pool??
Then Delta doesn't have to give them JACK!! Airlines have agreements like this all over the world, None of it is automatic and NOBODY OWES you their parts.
This is all done by agreement and at MAGSA Rates, Sometimes at 15% down and 1% per day for as long as you have the part.
United makes GOOD money doing this up to and including Jet Engines and Landing Gear. Nothing is for Free!
 
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keesje
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:22 pm

bourbon wrote:
keesje wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Boeing might not have one immediately available. I'm sure they could source I've pretty quickly, but it's not as simple as just driving down to the shop to pick one up.

Also, think on the larger scale. Maybe no flights for Delta 777s in that immediate area, but parts do travel. If that's the last one, you don't want to give it away just in case anything should happen


- something happened. AOG, 300 people waiting while you order to uninstall a part. Probably a fatneck mngr that never expected this to become public, now biting his lip while trying to hide behind a procedure.

Once that part is out the door of DL stores it is Emirates' part. Delta cannot request it back once it has left. A contract was signed. The part most certainly would not have been removed had it been installed. If removed it would have had to go back to DL in ATL and go through inspection and be deemed serviceable to get back into DL stock.

If it was Delta's last part and they decided not to give it up that part never left Delta's hands in SEA Stores.


Very unlikely & this obvious was not about the money. If it was/is a highly critical partnumber, Delta would have more than just one on stock. The fact that it fits more aircraft types makes it unlikely Delta couldn't have had one back AOG in their warehouse in hours (EK had one in hours).

It seems in this case Delta is caught red handed and has dreamed up a sobbing story about not giving up their last precious part to protect humanity.. But that's probably not what many want to hear about an arab airline. Alternative facts come to the rescue & pls. move on.

Does anyone have the partnumber? then we can find the truth pretty quickly ;)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
77H
Posts: 1572
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:37 pm

toobz wrote:
I have to laugh...same DL haters coming out again. It's DL's part and they can do whatever they want with it. Simple as that.


And the same DL defenders backing the airlines moves no matter what? It's not like a company has ever lied to save face after doing something that looks bad. I wonder what your stance would be we inserted AA/UA instead of DL. What if it was DL that needed the part and AA/UA didn't supply it.

Perhaps everything happened exactly as DL claims, maybe not but it certainly looks fishy on both sides.
The bottom line is, airlines compete on a commercial scale but when it comes to safety they are all one. If nothing else, this sets a terrible precedent that feuding airlines start withholding parts.

77H
 
sxf24
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I guess you haven't read masterpieces by Bloomberg in India and Middle East. In these regions journalists will plant stories for free food. Now anybody with access to newswire can plant a story and it shows up on our mainstream media next morning.


Ah, the "if you disagree with the reporting it must be fake news," defense. Tough to have any type of reasonable discussion with that type of logic.


What proof Emirates or Bloomberg presented here against Delta? Until then it is fake news.

It is the unfortunate side effect of globalization and 24 hr news cycle, just because they were previously reputed brand names doesn't change the way their franchises operate locally, it just gives them a global platform.


I'm not sure what type of proof you would expect to see. A video of the entire situation? A recording of phone calls? Copies of the maintenance records?

Perhaps the proof can be found in the same place where you read EK has a $3B+ marketing and PR budget.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:54 pm

I'm hearing some mixed messages, as it were, in the thread. Was the part "borrowed" or sold by Delta?

If it was sold, then as another poster stated, then it belongs to Emirates and Delta really couldn't demand it back. If it was "borrowed," then yes, Delta probably could as it was still their property, although it may not have been a wise PR move. As a non-aviation industry person, I'm curious if someone in maintenance or operations could fill us in on how the process actually works, when one airline requests a part form another. Do airlines have reciprocal agreements to provide spares, or is more of a gentleman's agreement?

Many thanks,

Bob
 
surfdog75
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:55 pm

This thread is a bunch of BS. Delta is under no obligation to help an airline that hasn't properly prepared to have spare parts available for its operation. If a DL 777 diverted to SEA and that part wasn't available because it was on an Emirates airplane then there definitely would have been a problem. Part of the price of your ticket is the reliability of the airline and the expense they've gone through to create a plan for any eventuality.
 
bobnwa
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:56 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Wow, that's very immature. Delta is starting to lose my respect with their childish behaviour.

Your reply was much more childish!!
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:26 pm

Go into your boss and tell him you are going to help out one of your big competitors by giving him a piece of equipment that will get him back in service. Add that you think it would be childish, immature, and morally bankrupt if you don't and he should consider that when making his decision.

Get back to me with the answer.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
This is what used to make the airline world go around; professionals helping each other out when the smelly stuff hit the spinning bits.


This imho is a hint at the future
and could be a subconcious reveal that he US Three seem to be sure that they will no longer need to kiss up to the ME Three even in day to day helpful cooperation ...
Expect massive table tilting by Trump to the advantage of all things American.

Then I am wondering about what the blowback will turn out to be.

Careful. You're going to pull a muscle with these contortions, even as often as you do this schtick. It was unfortunate for EK that the calendar said February 2 rather than January 2, because under the Obama administration Delta would have said just take it, it's on the house. :roll:

If the part was removed after EK installed it, then that's beyond dooshy. Yes DL has every right not to provide it in the first instance, but you have to be a major league apologist to condone demanding it back.
 
catiii
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:17 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
catiii wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

What Delta did (if the assertions in the Bloomberg article are true) is so egregiously immoral that no one should countenance their wickedness.

Delta could have refused to make the part available for any reason they chose. But they did not do that.

After they made the part available, and after it had been installed on the Emirates' aircraft, they caused it to be removed in a wicked, immoral, fit of spleen.

If this is "business as usual" I hoped the practice is limited to Delta, and that they be considered as a pariah within the airlines industry.


Wickedness? This is sarcasm, right?


No sarcasm. From the Bloomberg news article cited by OP:

"Qatar Air Chief Executive Officer Akbar Al Baker branded Delta “wicked” last year after the Doha-based carrier’s first flight to Atlanta with the Airbus Group SE A380 superjumbo was directed to a remote gate at the world’s busiest airport, leaving elderly and infirm passengers to disembark via temporary stairs rather than through the usual air-bridge."

Delta was wicked then in Atlanta and was also wicked just now in Seattle. I won't bother posting definitions from Webster's, but I just checked and the usage of "wicked" is appropriate.


Ah got it. You and AAB are prone to the same hysteria I see.
 
kennyomg
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:36 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Oh, please. no carrier accept other airlines PAX when they cancel flights due to bad WX. they do that to keep the seats for their customer's.

If your going to dog on DL then, at least let people who aren't in the industry know that's every airlines policy not just DL.
If DL had CNX the flight AA would't of take our customers.

Not in case of mass cxl due to wx, but they do take each others' customers. There was a reason DL terminated their interline agreement with AA 2 yrs ago, part of it was the huge difference between AA and DL cxl's and the number of AA pax DL carried as a result. But surely enough, to this day you can get rebooked on UA with a DL ticket, or AA with UA ticket, etc if you know what to say and push hard enough.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:01 pm

You all do realize that not all parts on an airplane are made by Boeing, it could be that Boeing only stocks it at Everett for planes being built.

I worked stores for US for 17 years, many parts are bought from other aerospace companies, not just Boeing.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:11 pm

Super Em wrote:
When the stores guy checks inventory they find out it was the last one. As per Delta rules, they cannot loan out their last part. They ask for their part back. Unfortunate but it happens..


Just for clarity, are you saying that you've seen parts installed on an aircraft and then taken back off after finding out it was the last spare they had? Not doubting it, but wondering if it really has happened that way in your experience?

conflats wrote:
Another point I was just thinking of is, Emirates is one of the largest 777 operators out there and the plane is assembled in Seattle.

Planes need spare parts and supposedly this flight would be carrying spare parts back to Dubai. On here previously there have been threads saying ek don't fly the A380 to SEA as it can't carry as much cargo as the 77W. I can't understand why they needed delta at all.


Even if everything you say is true, do you really believe that every day when their 77Ws take off from SEA that they have one of every spare part? Or that Boeing has every spare part in existence that might be needed on a 77W at the ready?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Sounds like a planted story. This is the result.of an airline spending more on publicity than aircraft leases.


By "planted" do you mean false? Because it'd seem odd that DL would be falsely quoted in the story and not be hitting back in the media as we speak.

WIederling wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
This is what used to make the airline world go around; professionals helping each other out when the smelly stuff hit the spinning bits.


This imho is a hint at the future
and could be a subconcious reveal that he US Three seem to be sure that they will no longer need to kiss up to the ME Three even in day to day helpful cooperation ...
Expect massive table tilting by Trump to the advantage of all things American.

Then I am wondering about what the blowback will turn out to be.


Please - just stop. Your anti-American diatribes have become so monotonous that they are ruining the otherwise positive interactions in some threads.

keesje wrote:
It seems in this case Delta is caught red handed and has dreamed up a sobbing story about not giving up their last precious part to protect humanity.. But that's probably not what many want to hear about an arab airline. Alternative facts come to the rescue & pls. move on.


Ditto.

surfdog75 wrote:
This thread is a bunch of BS. Delta is under no obligation to help an airline that hasn't properly prepared to have spare parts available for its operation. If a DL 777 diverted to SEA and that part wasn't available because it was on an Emirates airplane then there definitely would have been a problem. Part of the price of your ticket is the reliability of the airline and the expense they've gone through to create a plan for any eventuality.


I don't think it's about DL saying no to EK. I think it's about DL saying yes to EK, letting EK take/install a part, and THEN saying no to EK.

Every airline has maintenance issues come up where a spare part isn't available in their own stores. That's why they agree to work with their fellow carriers to help each other out in those situations. EK and DL apparently are part of that association. That is part of EK preparing for such situations.

I think it's very possible that the folks on the ground in SEA with DL decided to help EK out without considering that it was leaving them without a spare or worrying about being without a spare - one of the two. When someone up the chain found out about it, they said "NO!" While most would say "a deal is a deal", in this case it sounds like the DL guy in SEA went back to EK and said "Sorry - I made a mistake and will need it back". For whatever reason, if the part was already in EK's possession, they gave it back. It might not be anything bigger or more complicated than that. More like an unfortunate combination of circumstances than an outright decision to screw over EK, even if that sounds better to those of us who might enjoy seeing DL once again labeled the bad guy.

TVNWZ wrote:
Go into your boss and tell him you are going to help out one of your big competitors by giving him a piece of equipment that will get him back in service. Add that you think it would be childish, immature, and morally bankrupt if you don't and he should consider that when making his decision.

Get back to me with the answer.


It happens. In both my current job and in my previous jobs we've worked together on the ground level to help each other out. There will always be considerations from the top folks that might inhibit or encourage such behavior. For example, sometimes helping out a "competitor" over and over makes negotiating certain deals etc more "enjoyable", if you will.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
coolian2
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:14 pm

surfdog75 wrote:
This thread is a bunch of BS. Delta is under no obligation to help an airline that hasn't properly prepared to have spare parts available for its operation. If a DL 777 diverted to SEA and that part wasn't available because it was on an Emirates airplane then there definitely would have been a problem. Part of the price of your ticket is the reliability of the airline and the expense they've gone through to create a plan for any eventuality.

Spot the Delta employee!

Also if an airline only has one of something at a mini-hub, I'd ask how properly prepared their operation is.

Emirates clearly were able to source the part they needed fairly quickly, and it appears the majority of the delay was Delta arseholing them around.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:46 pm

sxf24 wrote:
I'm not sure what type of proof you would expect to see. A video of the entire situation? A recording of phone calls? Copies of the maintenance records?


I know this goes against a.net principles but a fact is something verifiable independently, one cannot plant a fake story and put thru a spin cycle supported by own social media warriors hoping that every one will start believing the fake story.

Once installed that part is pretty much useless to Delta because of inspection and re-certification process, it might as well ferry another spare from one of its warehouses.

This story has zero evidence and lot of holes.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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keesje
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:54 pm

Anyone who's been active in line maintenance/ AOG situations knows the frontline helps each other out when there's a real need & hundred of passengers / crew members are in a bad situation. Because you know they'll help when your passengers end up in a bad situation. The guy who did this intervention needs correction and most likely already got it. Behind the scenes.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:59 pm

keesje wrote:
Anyone who's been active in line maintenance/ AOG situations knows the frontline helps each other out when there's a real need & hundred of passengers / crew members are in a bad situation. Because you know they'll help when your passengers end up in a bad situation. The guy who did this intervention needs correction and most likely already got it. Behind the scenes.


I think that's probably a fair statement, at least in regards to the frontline folks. I'm assuming that the behind-the-scenes stuff depended on how much DL really cared one way or the other.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:18 pm

I love the people defending Delta saying they had "every right to" force Emirates to uninstall their part. Well yes duh, no one is saying Delta was under legal obligation to let them keep it, it's just a rude move indicative of their petty feud with the ME3. $6 billion profit and they're crying to the government to help them out... What a time to be alive
 
bourbon
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Again,

Whether borrowed or purchased, if Emirates walks out the door with the part it is NOT going back to DL in SEA. If the part has been installed on the aircraft it most certainly is NOT being removed by a mechanic in SEA. DL cannot tell a mechanic to remove a part from an aircraft that is not there own.

EMIRATES NEVER HAD POSSESSION of this part.
 
conflats
Posts: 39
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:50 pm

conflats wrote:
Another point I was just thinking of is, Emirates is one of the largest 777 operators out there and the plane is assembled in Seattle.

Planes need spare parts and supposedly this flight would be carrying spare parts back to Dubai. On here previously there have been threads saying ek don't fly the A380 to SEA as it can't carry as much cargo as the 77W. I can't understand why they needed delta at all.


[quote=''PlanesNTrains'']Even if everything you say is true, do you really believe that every day when their 77Ws take off from SEA that they have one of every spare part? Or that Boeing has every spare part in existence that might be needed on a 77W at the ready?[/quote]

Firstly, please don't attack me, I stated my questions and gave my opinion.

Secondly, Seattle is where the 77W is assembled... now I really find it hard to believe that the manufacturer of a product which is made close by does not have a stock of all parts for the aircraft in stock or are you saying that boeing only has the exact amount for aircraft assembly in stock and therefore they must order spare parts for anyone who may require them? And I don't believe they take off with every spare part but again I will say boeing makes the 777 in Seattle and I find it very hard to believe it would not have a part which a operator of the 737 had in stock.

A car which costs $25,000 and it needed a part.... any part any dealer would be able to get the part within 24hours if they didn't have it in stock. Your telling me that a multi million aircraft that needs a spare part in the city where it was assembled didn't have a stock?

It seems to me like its a story against DL to generate bad press, unless there is some other information I have not heard yet?
 
sxf24
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
I'm not sure what type of proof you would expect to see. A video of the entire situation? A recording of phone calls? Copies of the maintenance records?


I know this goes against a.net principles but a fact is something verifiable independently, one cannot plant a fake story and put thru a spin cycle supported by own social media warriors hoping that every one will start believing the fake story.

Once installed that part is pretty much useless to Delta because of inspection and re-certification process, it might as well ferry another spare from one of its warehouses.

This story has zero evidence and lot of holes.


A Delta spokesperson confirmed the story, which has now been reported on by Reuters. I don't know how many more facts you need. Perhaps a Tweet?
 
JBLUA320
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:24 pm

If Emirates was able to source the part from Alaska - an airline they partner with - why did they not go to Alaska in the first place? I would think that Emirates would want to try everyone else first before having to call on its fiercest critic.

The article also states that Delta refused a credit card payment that Emirates was trying to make. I would be interested in getting clarification on this. It could be that Delta's policy is not to accept credit cards for this sort of thing. It could also be that for whatever reason, the card didn't work.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:34 pm

Relying on your competition to stay in business.

Amateur hour in Dubai.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:51 pm

conflats wrote:
conflats wrote:
Another point I was just thinking of is, Emirates is one of the largest 777 operators out there and the plane is assembled in Seattle.

Planes need spare parts and supposedly this flight would be carrying spare parts back to Dubai. On here previously there have been threads saying ek don't fly the A380 to SEA as it can't carry as much cargo as the 77W. I can't understand why they needed delta at all.


[quote=''PlanesNTrains'']Even if everything you say is true, do you really believe that every day when their 77Ws take off from SEA that they have one of every spare part? Or that Boeing has every spare part in existence that might be needed on a 77W at the ready?


Firstly, please don't attack me, I stated my questions and gave my opinion.

Secondly, Seattle is where the 77W is assembled... now I really find it hard to believe that the manufacturer of a product which is made close by does not have a stock of all parts for the aircraft in stock or are you saying that boeing only has the exact amount for aircraft assembly in stock and therefore they must order spare parts for anyone who may require them? And I don't believe they take off with every spare part but again I will say boeing makes the 777 in Seattle and I find it very hard to believe it would not have a part which a operator of the 737 had in stock.

A car which costs $25,000 and it needed a part.... any part any dealer would be able to get the part within 24hours if they didn't have it in stock. Your telling me that a multi million aircraft that needs a spare part in the city where it was assembled didn't have a stock?

It seems to me like its a story against DL to generate bad press, unless there is some other information I have not heard yet?[/quote]

It was not an attack, it was a challenge.

I think that it boiled down to it being quicker, easier, and likely cheaper to turn to a carrier at SEA than to go through the Boeing channels. You mentioned 24 hours above, which I think would illustrate why it was probably faster and easier to just call up another airline and say "Can I get one of these from you guys?" It was also mentioned up-thread that Boeing doesn't instantly supply the part - there's a series of things that would take place, such as a formal procurement process, payment, sourcing, etc. That takes time, and for airline's and their passengers, time is the enemy.

Ultimately, had EK known that this would happen, they likely would have just gone with the Boeing alternative and that would be that. Instead, they sort of backed into the situation by first being told yes and then being told no. That's the breaks I guess.

I think the tone of my initial reply could have been better, but I think much of the thread explained why things went the way they did for EK and why perhaps there isn't one of everything always available.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 98
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:52 pm

JBLUA320 wrote:
If Emirates was able to source the part from Alaska - an airline they partner with - why did they not go to Alaska in the first place? I would think that Emirates would want to try everyone else first before having to call on its fiercest critic.


That;s one of the things that's weird about this story. Why go to someone you don't have a relationship with before going to someone you do? If the parts department was closed or the Alaskan maintenance staff had gone home, wouldn't they have a contact number the Alaskan on-call pager to get assistance from that partner or a supervisor who could assist them?

[quote="JBLUA320"The article also states that Delta refused a credit card payment that Emirates was trying to make. I would be interested in getting clarification on this. It could be that Delta's policy is not to accept credit cards for this sort of thing. It could also be that for whatever reason, the card didn't work.[/quote]

Or it was declined. Or that Delta didn't accept the credit card type. Or half a million other reasons.

If it was a payment dispute and Emirates wouldn't (or couldn't) pay, I could see Delta being justified in telling them to remove the part. But that's just speculation at this point.

There is definitely more to this story beyond what is in the article. I'd be interested to hear the details that are being left out.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:53 pm

JBLUA320 wrote:
If Emirates was able to source the part from Alaska - an airline they partner with - why did they not go to Alaska in the first place? I would think that Emirates would want to try everyone else first before having to call on its fiercest critic.

The article also states that Delta refused a credit card payment that Emirates was trying to make. I would be interested in getting clarification on this. It could be that Delta's policy is not to accept credit cards for this sort of thing. It could also be that for whatever reason, the card didn't work.


1. I think the fact that EK and DL are in the same terminal vs at opposite ends of the airport might play a part, though I don't know.
2. It sounds to me like it was less that the payment was declined and more that the agreement to sell was declined - again, I don't know.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:24 pm

keesje wrote:
Anyone who's been active in line maintenance/ AOG situations knows the frontline helps each other out when there's a real need & hundred of passengers / crew members are in a bad situation. Because you know they'll help when your passengers end up in a bad situation. The guy who did this intervention needs correction and most likely already got it. Behind the scenes.

Not really. I've had AOG aircraft where dozens of airlines have refused to sell or loan their part for one reason or another. At that point you source from a third party or the manufacturer and the plane sits. Sometimes for days. All the fluff about tech ops helping out other companies is silly. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. And frontline employees have absolutely no say on what gets borrowed or sold. Those decisions are made by departments higher up, who have way different priorities than rectifying someone else's bad situation.
 
conflats
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:26 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
conflats wrote:
conflats wrote:
Another point I was just thinking of is, Emirates is one of the largest 777 operators out there and the plane is assembled in Seattle.

Planes need spare parts and supposedly this flight would be carrying spare parts back to Dubai. On here previously there have been threads saying ek don't fly the A380 to SEA as it can't carry as much cargo as the 77W. I can't understand why they needed delta at all.


[quote=''PlanesNTrains'']Even if everything you say is true, do you really believe that every day when their 77Ws take off from SEA that they have one of every spare part? Or that Boeing has every spare part in existence that might be needed on a 77W at the ready?


Firstly, please don't attack me, I stated my questions and gave my opinion.

Secondly, Seattle is where the 77W is assembled... now I really find it hard to believe that the manufacturer of a product which is made close by does not have a stock of all parts for the aircraft in stock or are you saying that boeing only has the exact amount for aircraft assembly in stock and therefore they must order spare parts for anyone who may require them? And I don't believe they take off with every spare part but again I will say boeing makes the 777 in Seattle and I find it very hard to believe it would not have a part which a operator of the 737 had in stock.

A car which costs $25,000 and it needed a part.... any part any dealer would be able to get the part within 24hours if they didn't have it in stock. Your telling me that a multi million aircraft that needs a spare part in the city where it was assembled didn't have a stock?

It seems to me like its a story against DL to generate bad press, unless there is some other information I have not heard yet?


It was not an attack, it was a challenge.

I think that it boiled down to it being quicker, easier, and likely cheaper to turn to a carrier at SEA than to go through the Boeing channels. You mentioned 24 hours above, which I think would illustrate why it was probably faster and easier to just call up another airline and say "Can I get one of these from you guys?" It was also mentioned up-thread that Boeing doesn't instantly supply the part - there's a series of things that would take place, such as a formal procurement process, payment, sourcing, etc. That takes time, and for airline's and their passengers, time is the enemy.

Ultimately, had EK known that this would happen, they likely would have just gone with the Boeing alternative and that would be that. Instead, they sort of backed into the situation by first being told yes and then being told no. That's the breaks I guess.

I think the tone of my initial reply could have been better, but I think much of the thread explained why things went the way they did for EK and why perhaps there isn't one of everything always available.[/quote]

Apologies for my defensive reply I understand your point.


Does the handling agent would handle maintianence also? Or does ek have somebody employed at the outstation? The maintainence team would be responsible for getting a problem sorted no?
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:41 pm

First of all, if the flight was grounded by a part requiring replacement, it's a part that can't be "DIL" 'ed based on the MEL or CDL.
Whether the part is compatible with other aircraft types doesn't matter.

When it comes to airlines that are direct rivals and one isn't playing by the book., there is no such thing as a gentleman's agreement or industry standard.
Outstation maintenance is managed through contracts with local third parties, or if unavailable, by the airline itself.
If DL has a contract to supply AOG parts in SEA to EK, but didn't supply those services to EK's satisfaction, EK can feel free to find a new provider for those services at SEA.
Complaining about it in the news is not going to make EK more friends, quite the opposite.
Who would want to partner with an airline that's going to put you in the news at every delay that they get because of a malfunction of their plane?

EK needs to be careful because this way of communicating is frowned upon in this industry and EK doesn't belong to an alliance nor does it have many friends.
They better not try such a stunt with airlines like JAL, because they would take this as a grave insult and it could end up costing EK its Japan access.
Last edited by Waterbomber on Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:44 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
First of all, if the flight was grounded by a part requiring replacement, it's a part that can't be "DIL" 'ed based on the MEL or CDL.
Whether the part is compatible with other aircraft types doesn't matter.

When it comes to airlines that are direct rivals and one isn't playing by the book., there is no such thing as a gentleman's agreement or industry standard.
Outstation maintenance is managed through contracts with local third parties, or if unavailable, by the airline itself.
If DL has a contract to supply AOG parts in SEA to EK, but didn't supply those services to EK's satisfaction, EK can feel free to find a new provider for those services at SEA.
Complaining about it in the news is not going to make EK more friends, quite the opposite.
Who would want to partner with an airline that's going to put you in the news at every delay that they get because of a malfunction of their plane?

EK needs to be careful because this way of communicating is frowned upon in this industry and EK doesn't belong to an alliance nor does it have many friends.
They better not try such a stunt with airlines like JAL, because it could end up costing them an arm and a leg.


That may be true, but it isn't like DL hasn't been communicating every chance it can about EK et al I don't see it as a one-sided rivalry by any stretch.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:50 pm

"That may be true, but it isn't like DL hasn't been communicating every chance it can about EK et al I don't see it as a one-sided rivalry by any stretch."


So knowing that, EK shouldn't have tried to source the part from DL in the first place.
In any case, DL loses nothing here, EK is scewing itself. DL doesn't need EK's MX services in DXB, while EK is very likely to require assistance from DL in the future.
Trying to save face on a delay that is caused by failure of their own equiment is going to cost them access to DL's services. Was it really worth it?

It's not rare that significant AOG situations climb the hierarchy to have CEO's calling eachother over the "red phone" to resolve a situation.
 
toobz
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:02 am

worst decision EVER to let just anyone on this site without paying..aarrgh. Delta obviously had every good intention when they first gave it to an ME3 carrier. Right??? I mean, lets not be all emotional about this . They gave the part in good faith to a competitor that they clearly dislike. Why would they have done that if they are .."wicked" "evil" "childish" lol....DL company policy states that THEY ARE NOT TO GIVE THE LAST PART OUT. Somebody did obviously and here we go. You may not like it, but big bad DL had every right to do so. Next topic..
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:07 am

sxf24 wrote:
A Delta spokesperson confirmed the story, which has now been reported on by Reuters. I don't know how many more facts you need. Perhaps a Tweet?


Spokesperson confirmed it is Delta's policy not to lend LAST spare. No where that person told installed part was taken back.

Shoddy journalists write two different irrelevant statements in two different paras and let the readers imagination run wild.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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keesje
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:29 am

I think its likely there wasn't just 1 left & someone is trying to save face.
If EK releases the partnumber we'll know soon enough.
$300, multiple types, a hose, switch, oxygen bottle?

Refusing such a pn in this situation isn't normal at all.
And no AOG' don't go through HQ, specially $300,- ones.

Je.us, how would folks have reacted it EK did this to a DL aircaft at DXB.
You need little imagination.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Flaps
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:36 am

I borrow/swap/purchase parts and equipment with DL on an almost weekly basis. Never once have I had a problem and in the few times where one side or another said no it was because that part was the last in stock or that piece of equipment was needed for their operations at that time. Same story with AA, UA etc. The only carrier that is difficult to deal within this regard is WN and fortunately the only thing I've ever needed from them is a 737 tow pin. DL is actually the best to work with in this regard of all carriers, at least here.

I'm not buying this story as it flies in the face of everything I have experienced with DL. Sounds like EK crying wolf to me. .
 
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jnev3289
Posts: 636
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:08 am

Flaps wrote:
I borrow/swap/purchase parts and equipment with DL on an almost weekly basis. Never once have I had a problem and in the few times where one side or another said no it was because that part was the last in stock or that piece of equipment was needed for their operations at that time. Same story with AA, UA etc. The only carrier that is difficult to deal within this regard is WN and fortunately the only thing I've ever needed from them is a 737 tow pin. DL is actually the best to work with in this regard of all carriers, at least here.

I'm not buying this story as it flies in the face of everything I have experienced with DL. Sounds like EK crying wolf to me. .


What exactly does EK have to gain from this? They just randomly decided to attack Delta? Thats much more believable than the airline who put a damper on QRs inaugural A380 to ATL being spiteful to another ME3 right?
 
N415XJ
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:52 am

JetPilotMike wrote:
Bravo Delta! The ME3 are screwing the US3 over at every opportunity with their government subsidized flights from the US to all over the world. Very few people want to go to Doha or Dubai, yet they operate hundreds of the largest jets in the world. Since they have priced the US3 out of flying to the Middle East, there is very little chance Delta will need a part at their hub. Maybe Delta offered the part at a price they wouldn't agree to, so uninstalled it was!


Lol, I bet you think there's some sheikh in Dubai surrounded by golden furnishings and exotic animals eating caviar sandwiches sending cases of cash to EK Headquarters with a note that says "buy more A380s". Guess what? A lot of people want to go to Dubai- it's functionally the finnancial capital of the entire Middle East, and thus has a massive amount of business traffic in the financial services sector. Also, it's THE vacation destination for hundreds of millions of people who want the western mall/resort/waterpark experience but can't afford a trip to the US or Europe. But do you know where people want to go more? This is all increasingly true for Doha and Abu Dhabi. India, a country of over a billion people with a massive diaspora spread all over the world, which is the backbone of EK's business model. If anything, EK is holding Dubai up, not the other way around.
 
B757Forever
Posts: 916
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:21 am

Airlines typically have reciprocal loan / borrow / purchase agreements in place that are spelled out contractually. These agreements are far-reaching and cover a multitude of regulatory requirements each carrier must meet. These contracts spell out not only the cost by day / flight hour / cycle but also purchase and swap options, returns, continued serviceability after use, use of rotable parts only or use of expendables and key-repairables as well. These agreements also include acceptance of each others vendor supplied parts and the supporting airworthiness documents. Some carriers require back-to-birth records for any part installed on their aircraft, others require only an FAA 8130 certificate of airworthiness to accept the part. These are not simple transactions
I feel this story is much more complicated than what the average reporter understands. I suspect that DL and EK did not have a reciprocal agreement covering this part hence the EK technician offering to purchase with a credit card. I've never seen a loan / borrow executed with a credit card. Never. I suspect the part was acquired and installed before the logistics people on both sides determined there was not an agreement in place covering the part, causing it to be removed. All airlines, even rivals, work very hard to assist one another on the technical side allowing the marketing departments to duke it out if they wish. I'm certain there is more to this story, we just aren't getting all the details.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:21 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Delta has a history of not wanting to play well with others. It's totally within their rights to behave that way if they wish.

I see it less about DL vs ME3 & more about an unspoken obligation to keep passengers moving, even if it's not your own bird that's doing the lifting. It used to be a great industry with help from other carriers when needed, now it's more like, I got mine, so screw you even if it takes innocent passengers into a lengthy delay.

Just today, the fact that DL doesn't accept passengers from other carriers, we had family stuck in Virginia when AA cancelled their flight. So I have zero love loss for DL, but again, they are free to act in any manner they wish & let the public interpret the situation for themselves.


Oh, please. no carrier accept other airlines PAX when they cancel flights due to bad WX. they do that to keep the seats for their customer's.
2,600 flight were cancelled.

If your going to dog on DL then, at least let people who aren't in the industry know that's every airlines policy not just DL.
If DL had CNX the flight AA would't of take our customers.


It's still a great industry, and DL's policy is to help other airlines out if they can but their first priority is to look after their customers first.

i'm just going to paste below what happened.

Delta Spokesman Michael Thomas said the item in question was the last spare of its kind in Delta's Seattle inventory, company policy
requires that it keeps the last one on hand in case Delta needs it.


Oh please, other carriers DO accept passengers from other carriers very readily with weather or mechanical delays. DL several years back took the unprecedented move of refusing to take other carriers tickets for re-accommodation. That was a DL policy, not something started by any other carrier.

So YES, DL has taken a more self serving role in the industry & like I also said, it's their choice to do so, the public can choose who they fly with.
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B737900ER
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:36 am

keesje wrote:
I think its likely there wasn't just 1 left & someone is trying to save face.
If EK releases the partnumber we'll know soon enough.
$300, multiple types, a hose, switch, oxygen bottle?

Refusing such a pn in this situation isn't normal at all.
And no AOG' don't go through HQ, specially $300,- ones.

Je.us, how would folks have reacted it EK did this to a DL aircaft at DXB.
You need little imagination.

So you're going to get access to DLs parts inventory to check their stock allocation how?

And yes AOG does go through a desk at HQ. You can't just give out/away parts on a whim
 
ZeeZoo
Posts: 285
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:38 am

Don't mind me...I'm just settling in with some popcorn...
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
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Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:19 am

:thumbsup:


Its times like this I am so very proud of Delta. Way to go Delta, you earn my respect more and more. Why should they help out Emirates? Sorry but screw them. Why didn't they go to Alaska Airlines in the first place? I just love the fact that DL let them install the part only to remove it. Absolutely brilliant.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Emirates Says Flight Was Delayed After Delta Withheld $300 Spare Part

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:56 am

jumbojet wrote:
:thumbsup:


Its times like this I am so very proud of Delta. Way to go Delta, you earn my respect more and more. Why should they help out Emirates? Sorry but screw them. Why didn't they go to Alaska Airlines in the first place? I just love the fact that DL let them install the part only to remove it. Absolutely brilliant.


Yet another reason to avoid Delta. Thanks for the reminder.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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