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LuxuryTravelled
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RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:22 am

There is a rumour that the IAG group will be buying the C-Series (CS300) to be spread across the group, including 10 to Aer Lingus, as well as Vueling and British Airways. Little detail so far though. Worth keeping an eye on.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:34 am

Could be for replacing A319s or possibly for BA CityFlyer to expand into other cities in the uk
 
by738
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:29 am

And if true, Unless there is some queue jumping, im guessing deliveries wouldnt be for at least 2-3 years. Hasnt this rumour surfaced before with regard BALCY ops as a replacement for A318.
 
TC957
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:29 am

I'd love to see if this comes to fruition. BA CityFlyer have suddenly discovered they can make good use of their E190's on weekend leisure routes away from LCY and the CS300 would be a logical step up in capacity. EI too, should make good use of them where an A320 is just too big.
 
BestWestern
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:35 am

With rumours that EI will be using the SSJ this summer into Gatwick (ex WX), there is a need for a smaller jet for EI.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BAWLGW
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:14 am

TheGeordielad wrote:
Could be for replacing A319s or possibly for BA CityFlyer to expand into other cities in the uk


BA want to replace A319s with A320neos eventually. CS300 would be probs to grow BA CityFlyer and new UK regions ops.

In the future I see BA CityFlyer growing to include the BA LGW base, operating short and longhaul W patterns from LCY and LGW to MAN, EDI, BHX, STN, ORY and BRS.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:16 pm

Would be a great fit, BA and EI in particular. Haven't heard any rumours myself but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
 
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LTU932
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Has the CS300 been certified for the steep approach into LCY?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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deltadawg
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:19 pm

Seems to be a good fit. Can you sight any sources or is it just what you heard from your sister's best friends cousin that works as a ground crewman that knows someone in the front office? :stirthepot:

In terms of climbing into and out of LCY isn't that almost the same as Toronto Billy Bishop? If so, I think the CS300 would be ok as it was basically designed around the YTZ specifications. Feel free to correct me. Hope to see if this rumor is true.
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BrianDromey
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:33 pm

The CS300 marketing website suggests 150Y at 30" pitch, which would be in keeping with the rest of the IAG airlines pitch. 160Y could also be achieved with a second overwing exit and 28" pitch. BA's A319 are already 28-29" behind the overwing exit.

The CS300 has a few things going for it;
1) IAG have signalled that they want to phase out the A319 to focus on A320/321 size aircraft. The CS300 could offer them A320/321 comparable CASM but with fewer seats to fill, raising RASK, which they will love.
2) IAG is very focussed on conserving capital and Im sure the financing for a blue-chip group like IAG on 20-50 frames would be attractive.
3) Long term IAG would be the only major European group without a jet aircraft in the CY150 size range.
4) The 3rd LHR runway will open up significant opportunities for IAG, but also significant threats. They may need aircraft smaller than the A320 to open new routes and to build frequencies on established routes. If the 3rd runway doesn't happen they need to be able to redeploy aircraft elsewhere. Low capital cost CS300s seem perfect for use out of UK, Irish and Spanish regional airports.
5) If convertible to the CS100 this would be an obvious replacement for the ERJ's, particular the E170s.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:38 pm

Interesting rumour although isn't Willie Walsh already on record as saying the CS300 is "too much aircraft for Cityflyer" ?
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:26 pm

One member on Twitter is claiming to have heard it from two separate sources:

https://twitter.com/michaelkelly707/sta ... 2277793792

It would be interesting if this was to increase UK regional flying by IAG airlines.

There has been a significant increase in IAG's presence in UK regional airports since IAG was formed six years ago. However, it is somewhat scattergun and could do with a least a coherent marketing message to the travelling public.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:41 pm

Bombardier said that there would be a major order for the jet sometime in 2017. They mentioned that the order would be similar in size to the Air Canada order, so if it is IAG, that could be an order for 40 or so jets.
 
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Channex757
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:57 pm

BA won't buy it.

The CS300 doesn't use containerised baggage therefore it would be useless at LHR.
 
rdc1000
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:10 pm

Well, even if it is true, you can rule out CityFlyer from taking them. There is no intention of certifying them for London City as they physically won't fit, even with the new infrastructure being provided. The CS100's length means it will only just fit and the tail height will be close tot he runway side slopes...the CS300 will not fit at all on this basis.

Cityflyer's current weekend ops from other airports is simply to make use of spare parked aircraft resources during the weekends when LCY is shut. They wouldn't give the carrier the aircraft to fly form other airports because it wouldn't be compatible with the core business.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:25 pm

Who says that CityFlyer wouldn'f fly them exclusively outside of LCY?
 
Clydenairways
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:26 pm

I don't see much logic in the rumour either, too small for BA LHR, too big for LCY, EI could use it but it's too close to the A320, an E190 would be a better fit for them. IB no, vueling maybe, IB express maybe.
 
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:30 pm

Channex757 wrote:
BA won't buy it.
The CS300 doesn't use containerised baggage therefore it would be useless at LHR.

They don't rotate all their aircraft through LHR.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Channex757
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
BA won't buy it.
The CS300 doesn't use containerised baggage therefore it would be useless at LHR.

They don't rotate all their aircraft through LHR.

The only planes up for replacement at the moment are some of the Airbus narrowbodies at LHR. The Embraers are not that old and won't be going anywhere for a while yet.

BA uses the LD3 and LD3-45 containers at Terminal 5. If a plane can't handle those then it's off the menu. They can accommodate the odd one like the JetTime leased in one, but any kind of big fleet buy would cause too much trouble with the T5 systems. Even a retrofit wouldn't work as the CS300 is too narrow.
 
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:04 pm

Channex757 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
BA won't buy it.
The CS300 doesn't use containerised baggage therefore it would be useless at LHR.

They don't rotate all their aircraft through LHR.

The only planes up for replacement at the moment are some of the Airbus narrowbodies at LHR. The Embraers are not that old and won't be going anywhere for a while yet.

BA uses the LD3 and LD3-45 containers at Terminal 5. If a plane can't handle those then it's off the menu. They can accommodate the odd one like the JetTime leased in one, but any kind of big fleet buy would cause too much trouble with the T5 systems. Even a retrofit wouldn't work as the CS300 is too narrow.


They're leaving the fleet, but the 767s can only handle the LD2 container (and the one-class ones are still in the fleet---the Worldwide fleet was retired except for one that moved to OpenSkies).

As for the CSeries, I don't believe that that can handle cargo containers, although if one were developed for it, that would be a game changer.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:04 pm

Channex757 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
BA won't buy it.
The CS300 doesn't use containerised baggage therefore it would be useless at LHR.

They don't rotate all their aircraft through LHR.

The only planes up for replacement at the moment are some of the Airbus narrowbodies at LHR.

But why are you assuming replacement though?

Granted, all we have to go on is a rumor and a tweet, but nothing thus far says that these can't be for net growth/expansion.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:21 pm

I can't see BA introducing a new fleet type at LHR for short-haul. It's been heading for an all Airbus short-haul fleet for some time.

This looks like expansion in new markets to me.
 
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Channex757
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:55 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
They don't rotate all their aircraft through LHR.

The only planes up for replacement at the moment are some of the Airbus narrowbodies at LHR.

But why are you assuming replacement though?

Granted, all we have to go on is a rumor and a tweet, but nothing thus far says that these can't be for net growth/expansion.

Expansion from where though?

I really don't see them going back to the regions, and until the third runway is a definite then they remain slot limited at LHR. IAG won't place any expansion order of any size until they know they have somewhere to operate them from and slots to do it with. It will happen but so far there's no certainty or dates for the work to even start.

LCY is also extremely limited in stands. Gatwick will remain the preserve of Airbus narrowbodies, probably brought in as they cascade from LHR. That's been the case for a long time now. BA won't want to make large investments at LGW. I'm not even sure the CS300 will physically fit at LCY.

Methinks someone has applied some wishful thinking to the situation, but BA is a non-starter. I could see EI finding them useful though.
 
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Channex757 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Gatwick will remain the preserve of Airbus narrowbodies,

How much of that fleet is leased though? The "new" G-GATx series and ex BD birds for sure. I think the CS would be perfect for LGW. As you say, there is no precedent ever for throwing money at Gatters, but if they seriously want to compete with the LCC's maybe this is the answer. Could they even transfer flying to Cityflyer like the old days? They can probably find a way to use a 100 on a once daily basis ex LCY for BA1/2 too if they need to (if the flight is kept of course). After all, that is what Odyssey were proposing. It would also be more efficient than the 319 on any LHR route.

Dont forget the huge BBD fleet over at Nostrum, I can see plenty being used in Spain too by Vueling, connect the UK regions to MAD and the sunspots to smaller EU airports..
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LHRFlyer
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:34 pm

It's worth remembering that IAG having four airline brands which could operate this aircraft significantly reduces the risk of one airline trying it out it not working.

If it doesn't work for any one of BA, EI, IB or VY, then the aircraft can easily be reallocated to another group airline. At a corporate level it's a big selling point of IAG to other potential target airlines.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:44 am

YW already operates a lot of CRJs so there is a lot of BBD experience at MAD and it could work well for I2 and even some CS100s for YW.
 
Andy33
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:06 am

Two things to look at:
Until recently Aer Lingus operated A319s. These were disposed of after they joined IAG (not because they were life expired, they were transferred to Vueling). Now the shorthaul fleet is entirely A320/A321. There is a significant operation using ATR72s by Stobart Air under contract as Aer Lingus Regional, mostly between Ireland and UK regional airports. In terms of the current routes, IAG obviously see A319 or CS300 planes as too small for EI mainline requirements, and equally obviously a CS300 is far too big to take over from an ATR72 if they brought the regional flying in house.
So if the rumour of 10 CS300s for EI is true, we're looking at new routes. Where?

Then BA mainline. There's a declared intention to both upgauge and "densify" (dreadful word, they mean add extra seats to) the Airbus fleet on shorthaul (somewhat at odds with the replacement of the seven-strong 767 shorthaul fleet by A321neos next year, but who said airlines had to be consistent). Currently there are 44 A319s. 11 of these (the newest in the fleet) are ex-BD and permanently based at Gatwick. The 33 original BA planes move about between LHR and LGW allocations. Between 14 and 16 of these are due to be replaced by new A320neo and A321neos over the next three years, and these planes are on order. So the fleet replacement plan is already started (and there are lots of A320neo series options to continue it). They obviously believe they have too many A319-sized planes, otherwise they'd have ordered A319neos as replacements already.
So maybe there's a possibility of removing the ex-BD A319 fleet from LGW and replacing it entirely with CS300s. Gatwick uses loose-loaded baggage. And all those ex-BD planes are leased. Other than that it is a matter of new routes again - the also-leased G-GATx A320s are 177 seaters, (just upseated from 171) and you can't get 177 people on a CS300, surely.
Then there's BA Cityflyer. The BA pilots scope agreement prevents Cityflyer from operating out of LGW or LHR other than for things like weather diversions. It also prevents Cityflyer operating planes with more than 99 seats. And that's before the fact that CS300s won't physically fit LCY airport.

As recently as November IAG published their fleet plan up to the end of 2020 for the benefit of their investors, and there were no CS100s or CS300s. Of course what they hope to order for delivery in 2021 is another matter, however they invariably seek the consent of shareholders before placing major plane orders.
 
BAWLGW
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:48 am

Andy33 wrote:
Two things to look at:
Until recently Aer Lingus operated A319s. These were disposed of after they joined IAG (not because they were life expired, they were transferred to Vueling). Now the shorthaul fleet is entirely A320/A321. There is a significant operation using ATR72s by Stobart Air under contract as Aer Lingus Regional, mostly between Ireland and UK regional airports. In terms of the current routes, IAG obviously see A319 or CS300 planes as too small for EI mainline requirements, and equally obviously a CS300 is far too big to take over from an ATR72 if they brought the regional flying in house.
So if the rumour of 10 CS300s for EI is true, we're looking at new routes. Where?

Then BA mainline. There's a declared intention to both upgauge and "densify" (dreadful word, they mean add extra seats to) the Airbus fleet on shorthaul (somewhat at odds with the replacement of the seven-strong 767 shorthaul fleet by A321neos next year, but who said airlines had to be consistent). Currently there are 44 A319s. 11 of these (the newest in the fleet) are ex-BD and permanently based at Gatwick. The 33 original BA planes move about between LHR and LGW allocations. Between 14 and 16 of these are due to be replaced by new A320neo and A321neos over the next three years, and these planes are on order. So the fleet replacement plan is already started (and there are lots of A320neo series options to continue it). They obviously believe they have too many A319-sized planes, otherwise they'd have ordered A319neos as replacements already.
So maybe there's a possibility of removing the ex-BD A319 fleet from LGW and replacing it entirely with CS300s. Gatwick uses loose-loaded baggage. And all those ex-BD planes are leased. Other than that it is a matter of new routes again - the also-leased G-GATx A320s are 177 seaters, (just upseated from 171) and you can't get 177 people on a CS300, surely.
Then there's BA Cityflyer. The BA pilots scope agreement prevents Cityflyer from operating out of LGW or LHR other than for things like weather diversions. It also prevents Cityflyer operating planes with more than 99 seats. And that's before the fact that CS300s won't physically fit LCY airport.

As recently as November IAG published their fleet plan up to the end of 2020 for the benefit of their investors, and there were no CS100s or CS300s. Of course what they hope to order for delivery in 2021 is another matter, however they invariably seek the consent of shareholders before placing major plane orders.



In regards to BA CityFlyer's pilot agreements, BA have moved and changed the goal posts so many times in recent history (LGW Cabin Managers and Pursers, LHR CSD and Pursers, introduction of MF amongst others), I really don't think pilot agreements is something you can hang your hat on. We never thought BA would move to the South Terminal at LGW or introduce Buy On Board, but they are doing it and BA are surprising us all at the moment, for the best may I say, so who knows!?

Are we sure it can't fit into LCY? Contradicting reports atm
 
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BBDB85
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:28 am

BAWLGW wrote:
Are we sure it can't fit into LCY? Contradicting reports atm


CS100 can (Swiss will use them for their Zurich-LCY route later this year), CS300 cannot.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:20 am

BestWestern wrote:
With rumours that EI will be using the SSJ this summer into Gatwick (ex WX), there is a need for a smaller jet for EI.


Is this not more likely to be the 'possibility' of the odd SSJ doing EI Regional services in EI livery operated by Cityjet/Stobart fleet ?
 
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BBDB85
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:24 am

JannEejit wrote:
Interesting rumour although isn't Willie Walsh already on record as saying the CS300 is "too much aircraft for Cityflyer" ?


This is what he also said (back in February 2016):

And despite the Bombardier CSeries programme having run into huge problems, with orders way below expectations, putting potentially thousands of jobs at risk across the group, Walsh revealed he hasn't ruled out IAG placing an order.

"We've looked seriously at the CSeries. In fact I visited the facility in Montreal 14 months ago to have a look at the aircraft and they let me fly the simulator, so I'm very familiar with what they're doing," the former Aer Lingus pilot said.

"The 300 Series is probably just on the small side for what we could use for the likes of Heathrow and Gatwick.

"But one of the options we still haven't rule out is the possibility of using the aircraft on the London City airport, where we have a fleet of 18 Embraer aircraft.

"It's something we could well do in the future. We would give it serious consideration."

He also confirmed: "We did look seriously at the CSeries for a low cost subsidiary Vuelling in Barcelona, but again there were two aspects against us - one was the timing issue and the other was just how many aircraft are they going to sell. We need to have spare aircraft and a certainty of supply."

The IAG boss - a committed cost-cutter and once irreverently referred to as 'Slasher Walsh' - said it was an ambitious move by Bombardier to try to move into the territory held by Boeing and Airbus, but added: "Its aircraft is hugely impressive and, from a technology point of view, I really liked it."


http://www.irishnews.com/business/2016/ ... s--413395/
 
seansasLCY
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:30 am

JannEejit wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
With rumours that EI will be using the SSJ this summer into Gatwick (ex WX), there is a need for a smaller jet for EI.


Is this not more likely to be the 'possibility' of the odd SSJ doing EI Regional services in EI livery operated by Cityjet/Stobart fleet ?


The Cityjet/Stobart merger was called off. Cityjet don't currently have any contracts with EI. Stobart are acquiring Ejets and so maybe they will operate some of these for EI in addition to their Flybe routes. However there is rumours of Cityjet operating the SSJ to LGW for EI this summer. If you read the book by the founder of Cityjet you'll see he never got along with EI so who knows how it'll work.
 
BHXLOVER
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:57 am

TC957 wrote:
I'd love to see if this comes to fruition. BA CityFlyer have suddenly discovered they can make good use of their E190's on weekend leisure routes away from LCY and the CS300 would be a logical step up in capacity. EI too, should make good use of them where an A320 is just too big.


EI have Stobart to do all their Aer Lingus regional flights. Surely if anything, Stobart Air would buy them.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:58 am

Mmm.. Too much of a "rumour" for me.. Just my two cents of course, who am I after all.. I personally would love to see the lovely new Canadian jet adorned in an Union Jack...
Not sure about other IAG subsidiaries, but I highly doubt we'll see a BA order, as much as I love the looks of the CS... BA is not an airline to play with oddballs and fleet planning.. Vueling seems happy with the A320 family, and besides the very few A319 mainly operated in/out of FLR, they are also adding larger 321s...
As far as BA is concerned:
1) CityFlyer was, is and will be an -LCY only operation, no way they are expanding into other airports, and certainly not at LGW. Besides, they have new-ish Embraers and are very happy with them.
2) BA if anything are up-gauging their intra-Europe flying, so if anything they are moving to operating more A320/321s with denser seating, and less and less 319s, so not a chance they are looking at a 120-seater, and especially not for LHR flying...
3) LGW stays with A320s (cheaper, second hand ones BTW) and would surely not see BA flying any smaller equipment there short-haul. Not a chance.
4) BA are committed to Airbus for mainline, and will stay with them. They are a very focused airline in terms of fleet planning, long-term commitment and cost saving. You don't see them "toying" with ideas of new types easily..
5) BA are not going to expand into the Regions as many here suggest (wishful thinking). They have no need and no desire. It would be a blood bath for them as the market is by now effectively all in the hands of LCCs.
6) personally when and if the BA A318 comes up, I would either see BA moving to a franchise operation, or quietly having the BA1/2 operation die a silent death... I don't see them buying a random type is small numbers just for what is essentially a very niche and extravagant operation (even more so in the post-Brexit days).
 
tomkell92
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:18 pm

The CS100 would make more sense for BA CityFlyer, although I doubt that they would opt for this aircraft.
They currently operate E170's and E190's. Buying this aircraft would mean re-training all the crew.

Furthermore, BA CityFlyer are currently limited to carrying a maximum of 100 PAX per aircraft (insider knowledge), so with both versions of the C-Series seating more than 100, then they won't be able to operate this aircraft - unless either the restriction gets lifted or they have a very spacious cabin configuration.

Also, neither version of the C-Series are currently certified to operate in/out of LCY, but I suspect that certification will come soon enough - especially if Swiss plan on operating from LCY with their CS100.
Tom
 
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:54 pm

My view is that both EI and IB Group could use the C Series, quite apart from BA.

There is a big gap between the ATR and A320 in EI's fleet for UK and near Europe destinations. This would be well filled by a 100-130 seater such as the C Series, whilst allowing the operation of thinner routes into mainland Europe.

Over at Iberia I can see the C Series fitting in well with Vueling, enabling them to take over routes currently operated by Air Nostrum with the CR9 or CRK.

rdc1000 wrote:
Well, even if it is true, you can rule out CityFlyer from taking them. There is no intention of certifying them for London City as they physically won't fit, even with the new infrastructure being provided. The CS100's length means it will only just fit and the tail height will be close tot he runway side slopes...the CS300 will not fit at all on this basis.


No that's completely inaccurate. The potential issue for the CS300 being certified at LCY surrounds runway performance not ground parameters.

The CS100 is 35m long, shorter than the 36.2m long ERJ 190s which currently self maneuver onto the original stands. The reason the CS100 can't use these original stands the tail height of 11.5m. The newer stands are significantly larger, meaning the 38.7m long CS300 would be capable of self maneuvering onto these parking stands and would be significantly shorter than the 12.5m high A318 which already parks here. Both the CS100 and CS300 have the same tail height.


Dan
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JannEejit
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:43 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
With rumours that EI will be using the SSJ this summer into Gatwick (ex WX), there is a need for a smaller jet for EI.


Is this not more likely to be the 'possibility' of the odd SSJ doing EI Regional services in EI livery operated by Cityjet/Stobart fleet ?


The Cityjet/Stobart merger was called off. Cityjet don't currently have any contracts with EI. Stobart are acquiring Ejets and so maybe they will operate some of these for EI in addition to their Flybe routes. However there is rumours of Cityjet operating the SSJ to LGW for EI this summer. If you read the book by the founder of Cityjet you'll see he never got along with EI so who knows how it'll work.


Ah right, I hadn't realised the Cityjet/Stobart deal was off. What was it, monopoly concerns or something else ?
 
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JannEejit
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:48 pm

BBDB85 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Interesting rumour although isn't Willie Walsh already on record as saying the CS300 is "too much aircraft for Cityflyer" ?


This is what he also said (back in February 2016):

And despite the Bombardier CSeries programme having run into huge problems, with orders way below expectations, putting potentially thousands of jobs at risk across the group, Walsh revealed he hasn't ruled out IAG placing an order.

"We've looked seriously at the CSeries. In fact I visited the facility in Montreal 14 months ago to have a look at the aircraft and they let me fly the simulator, so I'm very familiar with what they're doing," the former Aer Lingus pilot said.

"The 300 Series is probably just on the small side for what we could use for the likes of Heathrow and Gatwick.

"But one of the options we still haven't rule out is the possibility of using the aircraft on the London City airport, where we have a fleet of 18 Embraer aircraft.

"It's something we could well do in the future. We would give it serious consideration."

He also confirmed: "We did look seriously at the CSeries for a low cost subsidiary Vuelling in Barcelona, but again there were two aspects against us - one was the timing issue and the other was just how many aircraft are they going to sell. We need to have spare aircraft and a certainty of supply."

The IAG boss - a committed cost-cutter and once irreverently referred to as 'Slasher Walsh' - said it was an ambitious move by Bombardier to try to move into the territory held by Boeing and Airbus, but added: "Its aircraft is hugely impressive and, from a technology point of view, I really liked it."


http://www.irishnews.com/business/2016/ ... s--413395/


Yes, I came across that article too in an attempt to find some evidence of WW suggesting he thought the CS was too big for Cityflyer operations, perhaps I read that on here somewhere too ? So the jury appears to be out, we'll see what happens but I'm also at a loss as to where IAG would place the aircraft, certainly within a BA or EI context, where the Airbus model seems ideal for their operations. Unless as suggested BA are attempting to run a regional airline again and EI are going to bring their regional network back in-house. ?
 
jrfspa320
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:32 pm

I highly doubt BA will order a replacement for the cityflyer fleet yet, its way too young, and 2nd hand embraers don't sell particularly well.
If I were them I'd be waiting to see what effect crossrail has on city airport, as then you will be able to reach heathrow from canary wharf in not much more time than going to city. I think it will be the end of the JFK flights, European network may well be okay.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:37 pm

Posters seem quite certain that the A319 is too small. I don't believe that is the case. The 319 is too expensive, on a per seat basis, compared to its larger siblings. It is entirely possible that the 150-160 seat CS300 would open up new markets to LHR, MAD, DUB, FLR, BCN hubs that an A320 is just too large for.
BA still have 25 or so A319s to replace one the initial A320NEOs are delivered. The CS3 could be a 1-for-1 replacement for the A319 across the group. That's well over 50 frames before any expansion or new possibilities were explored.
 
Jerry123
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:16 pm

It could be for Vueling. Operate to more regional airports across Spain and the UK that the A320 is too large for from BCN ORY and AMS and maybe increase frequency on a lot of the routes it already does. Ie BCN-CWL from 4 weekly A320 to 6 weekly CS300. But wouldn't the A319neo be more compatible with its current fleet?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:50 am

Channex757 wrote:

BA uses the LD3 and LD3-45 containers at Terminal 5. If a plane can't handle those then it's off the menu. They can accommodate the odd one like the JetTime leased in one, but any kind of big fleet buy would cause too much trouble with the T5 systems. Even a retrofit wouldn't work as the CS300 is too narrow.


What do they do for the smallest airplanes? The CS 100 cannot be the smallest plane that flies into Terminal 5?????
 
jrfspa320
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:23 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:

What do they do for the smallest airplanes? The CS 100 cannot be the smallest plane that flies into Terminal 5?????


Smallest aircraft is the A319 which is containerized
 
Andy33
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:15 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:

BA uses the LD3 and LD3-45 containers at Terminal 5. If a plane can't handle those then it's off the menu. They can accommodate the odd one like the JetTime leased in one, but any kind of big fleet buy would cause too much trouble with the T5 systems. Even a retrofit wouldn't work as the CS300 is too narrow.


What do they do for the smallest airplanes? The CS 100 cannot be the smallest plane that flies into Terminal 5?????

Heathrow has 4 terminals in use at present. T5 sees only BA and Iberia mainline aircraft (apart from the occasional wet-lease as Channex757 mentions) and the smallest aircraft they use is an A319 (containerised). Indeed the only mainline aircraft either flies that are smaller are the pair of A318s, and these don't operate out of LHR.

There are very few planes at Heathrow below A319/73G size, none of them fly for any IAG airline.
KLM use their Cityhopper subsidiary on a few flights into T4, flying E190s or Fokker 70s, but their other flights are mainline.
Flybe are due to start some UK domestics with Q400s out of T2 in a couple of months.
Occasional Brussels Airlines or Swiss flights into T2 may be on RJ85/100 or CS100 size planes.
 
drgmobile
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:40 am

I would be surprised to see IAG make a big capital investment in aircraft until more is known about the outcome of Brexit arrangements. As an organization whose operations are split into UK and EU markets, there are a lot of questions to be answered.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:51 pm

drgmobile wrote:
I would be surprised to see IAG make a big capital investment in aircraft until more is known about the outcome of Brexit arrangements. As an organization whose operations are split into UK and EU markets, there are a lot of questions to be answered.


IAG is pretty well positions for Brexit, honestly. With both UK and EU airlines that are already run mostly separately, the biggest issue will be currency fluctuation, most likely.

I think it's likely the UK stays in ECAA but I would say worst case is a full Open Skies agreement and even then not much will change as it's not like they do any UK domestics on an EU AOC or vice versa.
 
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nikeson13
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:29 pm

Now being reported by UK newspapers: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/british-airways-owner-lined-up-to-buy-c-series-jets-from-bombardier-35447950.html
Maybe they wouldnt be used a whole lot from LHR, but BA has showed much more interest outside of LHR recently with LGW and MAN adds.
Nikolas
 
vv701
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:42 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Posters seem quite certain that the A319 is too small. I don't believe that is the case. The 319 is too expensive, on a per seat basis, compared to its larger siblings. It is entirely possible that the 150-160 seat CS300 would open up new markets to LHR, MAD, DUB, FLR, BCN hubs that an A320 is just too large for.


Cause and affect. The cause is that the 319 is too small. The affect is that the cost per seat is higher for the 319 than for larger aircraft.

BA announced an order for 39 319s and 20 320s in August 1998. They confirmed the order on 26 October of that year. However they only took delivery of 33 of the 319s. They converted their order for the last six to additional 320s. With the shortage of LHR slots I cannot see this trend to move to larger aircraft that started way, way back being reversed for BA at LHR.

Reversed? Excepting the eleven 319s previously operated by BD no aircraft smaller than a 320 has entered service with BA at either LHR or LGW for more than fifteen years. That was when the last of the 33 319s, G-EUOI, entered service on 14 November 2001. Since then BA has leased or bought 95 single-aisle, short-haul aircraft to operate out of either LHR or LGW. The smallest type amongst these 95 frames is the 320. So I think the chances of seeing the CS300 operating for BA (or any other IAG airline) at LHR at least before any third LHR runway is opened are lower than very remote. And I do not see IAG ordering any aircraft as a result of any plan to build a third LHR runway until construction actually starts. In the interim there are but two ways of increasing the number of passengers carried at LHR. They are either higher load factors or by upguaging to a larger aircraft. I think that not using smaller aircraft at LHR is self evident. My view is that, although possible, we are also unlikely to see any IAG airline operating the CS300 out of BCN, DUB, FLR or MAD. After all IAG hold 80 paid-for options on 320 series family aircraft in addition to the 20 on firm order..

So what was WW on about? Could he be reminding Airbus that further option uptakes and additional future IAG orders for more 320 series aircraft are not a foregone conclusion?
 
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JannEejit
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:42 pm

nikeson13 wrote:
Now being reported by UK newspapers: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/british-airways-owner-lined-up-to-buy-c-series-jets-from-bombardier-35447950.html
Maybe they wouldnt be used a whole lot from LHR, but BA has showed much more interest outside of LHR recently with LGW and MAN adds.


That Belfast Telegraph article reads like the reporter used this thread as his source ! :lol:
 
wezgulf3
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Re: RUMOUR: IAG to purchase CS300?

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:19 pm

Could BA set up a LCC with the Cseries?

Wes...

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