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Blimpie
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UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:08 pm

Original Reference: https://consumerist.com/2017/02/14/united-airlines-passenger-says-dog-died-after-flight-from-detroit-to-oregon/
Primary Source: http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/wayne-county/woman-blames-united-airlines-for-her-dogs-death-after-unexpected-20-hour-layover

WXYZ-TV reports that the woman blames United Airlines for the death of her Golden Retriever, named Jacob, after a stressful, unexpectedly long flight from Detroit to Portland, OR, where she had recently relocated.


I'll leave it to the members to make their own conclusions.

PS: If already posted, apologizes, didn't see it under a search.
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Flighty
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:32 pm

Flying outside the passenger cabin is relatively dangerous for pets. Deaths are not necessarily that uncommon.

It is much better to leave your pet at home.
 
9w748capt
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:43 pm

Or pay the premium and fly nonstop. I cannot imagine what the owner is going through - but the onus also has to be on the consumer to gauge the risks of putting your loved one in the cargo hold.
 
klm617
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:52 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Or pay the premium and fly nonstop. I cannot imagine what the owner is going through - but the onus also has to be on the consumer to gauge the risks of putting your loved one in the cargo hold.



There are no nonstop from DTW to PDX this time of year. Sounds like the dog was shipped unaccompanied.. I myself would have done something other than shipping the dog unoccupied perhaps picking the dog up myself and driving with him to his new home in Oregon. Sadly customer service is a thing of the past where no one really cares what a paying customer has to go through as everyone is to busy to care.
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:29 am

klm617 wrote:
There are no nonstop from DTW to PDX this time of year.


Damn, you're right! It's hard to believe that a such a major airport doesn't have service to DTW!?! Lexington has it but not DTW? Portland is definitely in the top 30 busiest in the US for sure and somehow doesn't have it. Man, that surprised me!
 
aviationjunky
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:42 am

All people who ship animals have to sign a liability waiver that states the animal can/will be subject to extreme weather conditions, prolonged delays for any reason, and/or cancellation of flights leaving the animal stranded. People don't understand that. It's not that customer service is a thing of the past, it's just that they signed that they agreed to the terms, and unfortunately, it happened. The people who handle animals don't feed, water, walk, or let the animal use the restroom ANYWHERE other than the crate being used for transportation. It has always been highly advised to use a animal moving service that specializes in the transportation of animals to new homes, instead of on planes where they aren't watched the entire time. Don't blame the airline. The owner knew of what could happen.
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mjoelnir
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:43 am

Did anybody commenting hear read the article?
 
N415XJ
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:47 am

klm617 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Or pay the premium and fly nonstop. I cannot imagine what the owner is going through - but the onus also has to be on the consumer to gauge the risks of putting your loved one in the cargo hold.



There are no nonstop from DTW to PDX this time of year. Sounds like the dog was shipped unaccompanied.. I myself would have done something other than shipping the dog unoccupied perhaps picking the dog up myself and driving with him to his new home in Oregon. Sadly customer service is a thing of the past where no one really cares what a paying customer has to go through as everyone is to busy to care.

The article says that she connected at ORD, but was told the dog wouldn't fit on her leg from ORD to PDX, so he was put on another flight almost a full day later. There is 0% responsibility on the owner here. Firstly, I have no idea why an animal doesn't take priority over other baggage. It's much more logistically complicated to lay over a pet rather than a bag. But in any case, airline protocol wasn't followed as she wasn't allowed to put food with the dog despite UA's policy not only allowing, but recommending it. I agree with you- this sounds like yet another case of a collection of disorganized numptys simply not knowing how to think on their damn feet.

By the way, driving that distance isn't something you can undertake lightly. It's 2,300 miles from Detroit to Portland. That's 35 hours of driving, most likely taking two or more days depending on how much stamina the driver has, which I can't imagine would be easy to fit into a working person's schedule. Also, a one-way rental and the gas to get there wouldn't be cheap. Also, there's the very real possibility of the pet (and the owner) being injured in a car accident, especially considering that they'd be driving on rural mountain passes in the winter. Transporting the pet on the plane is so much more cheap and convenient, and honestly should be an issue if everyone involved does their job correctly. The woman had every reason to believe her dog would safely get to Portland as her contract with United would have guaranteed, so I don't see how she can be seen as responsible at all here.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:04 am

Flighty wrote:
Flying outside the passenger cabin is relatively dangerous for pets. Deaths are not necessarily that uncommon.

It is much better to leave your pet at home.


She was moving to anew home taking her pet with her.
 
klm617
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:10 am

N415XJ wrote:
klm617 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Or pay the premium and fly nonstop. I cannot imagine what the owner is going through - but the onus also has to be on the consumer to gauge the risks of putting your loved one in the cargo hold.



There are no nonstop from DTW to PDX this time of year. Sounds like the dog was shipped unaccompanied.. I myself would have done something other than shipping the dog unoccupied perhaps picking the dog up myself and driving with him to his new home in Oregon. Sadly customer service is a thing of the past where no one really cares what a paying customer has to go through as everyone is to busy to care.

The article says that she connected at ORD, but was told the dog wouldn't fit on her leg from ORD to PDX, so he was put on another flight almost a full day later. There is 0% responsibility on the owner here. Firstly, I have no idea why an animal doesn't take priority over other baggage. It's much more logistically complicated to lay over a pet rather than a bag. But in any case, airline protocol wasn't followed as she wasn't allowed to put food with the dog despite UA's policy not only allowing, but recommending it. I agree with you- this sounds like yet another case of a collection of disorganized numptys simply not knowing how to think on their damn feet.

By the way, driving that distance isn't something you can undertake lightly. It's 2,300 miles from Detroit to Portland. That's 35 hours of driving, most likely taking two or more days depending on how much stamina the driver has, which I can't imagine would be easy to fit into a working person's schedule. Also, a one-way rental and the gas to get there wouldn't be cheap. Also, there's the very real possibility of the pet (and the owner) being injured in a car accident, especially considering that they'd be driving on rural mountain passes in the winter. Transporting the pet on the plane is so much more cheap and convenient, and honestly should be an issue if everyone involved does their job correctly. The woman had every reason to believe her dog would safely get to Portland as her contract with United would have guaranteed, so I don't see how she can be seen as responsible at all here.



The dog was traveling unaccompanied. I do agree if she was told it would fit on the plane from ORD to PDX it should of been put on that plane what ever it took after all it's a living animal not some piece of luggage. United totally dropped the ball and can't understand why they are giving this family a hard time. Even though a liability wavier was signed they deviated from the service they said they'd provide which in my eyes voids the liability waiver.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:32 am

Flighty wrote:
Flying outside the passenger cabin is relatively dangerous for pets. Deaths are not necessarily that uncommon.

It is much better to leave your pet at home.

Not really. The hold and the cabin are in the same pressure vessel. It could be the pilots weren't aware of the dog and maybe had the temperature too low.
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United1
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 am

Truly heart wrenching this occurred as pets are part of the family.

"The article says that she connected at ORD, but was told the dog wouldn't fit on her leg from ORD to PDX, so he was put on another flight almost a full day later. There is 0% responsibility on the owner here. Firstly, I have no idea why an animal doesn't take priority over other baggage"

Has nothing to do with priority over other luggage it has to do with kennel size...the dog was shipped in a #700 giant crate and those can not be loaded on a 737. The #700s can fit on a A319/320 however or any larger mainline aircraft. The agent in DTW should have caught that as it's on the UA PetSafe checklist...

UAX can't take over a #400 crate
UA mainline can take any size crate except the 737 which can only take the #500 or smaller.

https://www.pettravelstore.com/pet-crates/
Last edited by United1 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DualQual
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:39 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Flying outside the passenger cabin is relatively dangerous for pets. Deaths are not necessarily that uncommon.

It is much better to leave your pet at home.

Not really. The hold and the cabin are in the same pressure vessel. It could be the pilots weren't aware of the dog and maybe had the temperature too low.


The temperature of the cargo bin is not directly controlled. Pilots are supposed to know about animals but can't do anything about the cargo temp.
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CanesFan
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:45 am

As a pilot, I would never travel with a pet checked as cargo. I've glanced into pet containers many times as I've performed walk-arounds, and just about every time, the poor animal is absolutely terrified. Add in the potential for missed connections, rough handling, white noise, and the unthinkable possibility of a cargo smoke indication. No thank you, I'll find another way.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:59 am

United1 wrote:
Truly heart wrenching this occurred as pets are part of the family.

"The article says that she connected at ORD, but was told the dog wouldn't fit on her leg from ORD to PDX, so he was put on another flight almost a full day later. There is 0% responsibility on the owner here. Firstly, I have no idea why an animal doesn't take priority over other baggage"

Has nothing to do with priority over other luggage it has to do with kennel size...the dog was shipped in a #700 giant crate and those can not be loaded on a 737. The #700s can fit on a A319/320 however or any larger mainline aircraft. The agent in DTW should have caught that as it's on the UA PetSafe checklist...

UAX can't take over a #400 crate
UA mainline can take any size crate except the 737 which can only take the #500 or smaller.

https://www.pettravelstore.com/pet-crates/


She checked with the airline before the flight if the crate would fit on both flights.
 
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:07 am

My wife brought a Yorkie from Odessa, Ukraine to Houston, Texas on Turkish Airlines. Turkish Airlines' website says they transport lots of pets. There was about a 2 hour layover between the ODS-IST and IST-IAH legs. They required enough food and water be available in the crate for at least the expected travel time. They even allow animals to travel in the cabin, but only one may travel on any trip. Due to a cat that was booked prior to my wife's dog, her dog had to fly in the cargo hold. The IST-IAH leg was between 12 and 13 hours. The dog wasn't really happy about traveling so long in the cargo hold, but she seemed to be perfectly healthy.
 
CanesFan
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:08 am

I wonder if there was an unscheduled equipment change.
 
United1
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:17 am

CanesFan wrote:
I wonder if there was an unscheduled equipment change.


Quite possibly...I have no idea but its an unfortunate situation all around.
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ikramerica
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:20 am

Sounds like UA needs to update their policy and simply not allow large dogs on 737s. That way there isn't s problem when one requires a too large crate.

I remember when we moved to Florida and had to take our cats from EWR as a kid. AA A300 had typical mechanical in winter. After hours, flight was canceled and they had to rebook us the next day. Had to drive to our old home, let the cats loose, round them back up the next day (they were not easy to get back in carriers) then go back to EWR. Endured another A300 delay but finally made it. Then they had to transfer to an ATR to EYW. And arrive in an unfamiliar home.

We are lucky all five survived. But ultimately, they got to live in the tropics and were very happy for many more years.
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United1
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:34 am

ikramerica wrote:
Sounds like UA needs to update their policy and simply not allow large dogs on 737s. That way there isn't s problem when one requires a too large crate.

I remember when we moved to Florida and had to take our cats from EWR as a kid. AA A300 had typical mechanical in winter. After hours, flight was canceled and they had to rebook us the next day. Had to drive to our old home, let the cats loose, round them back up the next day (they were not easy to get back in carriers) then go back to EWR. Endured another A300 delay but finally made it. Then they had to transfer to an ATR to EYW. And arrive in an unfamiliar home.

We are lucky all five survived. But ultimately, they got to live in the tropics and were very happy for many more years.


UAs policy in general reflects what you suggested. They dont accept giant sized crates on the 737...
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prebennorholm
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:43 am

Airlines should refuse such transports altogether. Dogs cannot be transported like they were cats or canary birds.

Dogs are gregarious or herd animals. Members of their herd can be other dogs, other animals and/or humans. Being treated with what they consider torture by individuals, whom they do not consider herd members, is extremely stressful. Add hunger and thirst, and it is next to impossible to imagine to receive the dog at destination without at least mental destruction. This event ended with also physical destruction. It cannot be really surprising.

Here in Europe, if you transport pigs to the slaughterhouse the same way, you end up in prison. (I assume that it is the same in the US).

People who have dogs should learn that dogs are mentally very complex individuals which always seek security in the herd, and always establish a strict hierarchy in their social life. When they fail in this respect, they become desperate. Failing for any prolonged period of time, and it causes mental destruction, and sometimes physical destruction.

If such a transport should have a good chance to be successful, then the sender should spend at least five minutes on handing over the dog to an airline employee, who would load and also unload the dog, and hand it over to the receiver. A dog will happily drive a hundred miles in the trunk of a car, if only it was loaded by a trusted member of its herd.

And of course it should not suffer thirst and starvation. Airlines are not designed for such services, so they should stick to transporting humans, canary birds, cats and hamsters.
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77H
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:17 am

United1 wrote:
Truly heart wrenching this occurred as pets are part of the family.

"The article says that she connected at ORD, but was told the dog wouldn't fit on her leg from ORD to PDX, so he was put on another flight almost a full day later. There is 0% responsibility on the owner here. Firstly, I have no idea why an animal doesn't take priority over other baggage"

Has nothing to do with priority over other luggage it has to do with kennel size...the dog was shipped in a #700 giant crate and those can not be loaded on a 737. The #700s can fit on a A319/320 however or any larger mainline aircraft. The agent in DTW should have caught that as it's on the UA PetSafe checklist...

UAX can't take over a #400 crate
UA mainline can take any size crate except the 737 which can only take the #500 or smaller.

https://www.pettravelstore.com/pet-crates/


Pet bookings are often made a great deal out from the time the pet travels. At the time of booking, the flight may very well have been operated by a 320 series aircraft. Swaps happen all the time and sometimes relatively last minute. There are no airline-wide announcements that a swap has occurred. If this occurred there is relatively little the pet owner or airline can do but wait to put the pet on a flight that can accommodate the crate.

That said, food and water should have been given, it is policy that pets be in cages that have openings to administer food and water without opening the cage. Furthermore, the airline would not have medicated the dog. It an airline not a vet. The agent who made this claim was most likely from a third party vendor company making claims he had no insight into.

The vet in PDX advised that the dog probably died due to its stomach flipping from stress. Flying pets is stressful for animals even under the best of scenarios. It is understanding that pets are viewed as part of the family but just like with humans, sometimes unfortunate things happen. Not sure how the airline could do much more than they did. Perhaps call and ask the owner if the pet could double connect. Something like DTW-ORD-DEN/SFO-PDX. Though I'm not sure what policy is on that.

77H
 
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garpd
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:15 am

Only in America! Take your dog on a very stressful journey (and flying is stressful to animals because of the noise, cramped conditions, vibrations, etc) and it dies. Most everywhere else people will chalk that down to the stress and move on. Nope, in America you can make money from this by blaming someone else!
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klm617
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:13 pm

garpd wrote:
Only in America! Take your dog on a very stressful journey (and flying is stressful to animals because of the noise, cramped conditions, vibrations, etc) and it dies. Most everywhere else people will chalk that down to the stress and move on. Nope, in America you can make money from this by blaming someone else!


I don't think she's trying to make money here she's just upset with the lack of compassion from United. United could have resolved this without fan fare I think if they would have been a little more compassionate and aiding the customer in resolving this. This is a big problem in the industry with very little completion with all the consolidation the customer pretty much gets a middle finger when there is a disruption in travel or other issues that arise when traveling. I have run into this with Delta several times especially in Atlanta to the lack of apathy towards the customer. Hey you're in the service industry you signed up for this so do you jobs and take care of the customer when there is an issue don't just blow them off because you're to busy a lot of this is due to lack of training because lets face it training cost money and these day companies don't like to spend money on thongs that don't bring a direct return on investment and in this day an age the customer is pretty much captive because of lack of choice in many markets.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:17 pm

garpd wrote:
Only in America! Take your dog on a very stressful journey (and flying is stressful to animals because of the noise, cramped conditions, vibrations, etc) and it dies. Most everywhere else people will chalk that down to the stress and move on. Nope, in America you can make money from this by blaming someone else!



Sorry but if something like this happened to my dog and no one seemed to care I'd be pretty pissed to but then again I would not have done this with my dog as I am extremely concerned for her well being and there is to much left to chance when shipping a dog unaccompanied. I would have kept her by my side the entire journey one way of another. I would be curious as to what was the age of the dog being it was checked out to see if he was healthy enough to fly.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Blimpie
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:34 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
Airlines should refuse such transports altogether. Dogs cannot be transported like they were cats or canary birds.

Dogs are gregarious or herd animals. Members of their herd can be other dogs, other animals and/or humans. Being treated with what they consider torture by individuals, whom they do not consider herd members, is extremely stressful. Add hunger and thirst, and it is next to impossible to imagine to receive the dog at destination without at least mental destruction. This event ended with also physical destruction. It cannot be really surprising.

People who have dogs should learn that dogs are mentally very complex individuals which always seek security in the herd, and always establish a strict hierarchy in their social life. When they fail in this respect, they become desperate. Failing for any prolonged period of time, and it causes mental destruction, and sometimes physical destruction.

And of course it should not suffer thirst and starvation. Airlines are not designed for such services, so they should stick to transporting humans, canary birds, cats and hamsters.


I take it you've never had a cat before. I haven't had one yet in five decades that took to being in a cage (or a carrier) going from the house to the vet. Most cats I've had don't take to even staying in a house more than an hour or two.
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dfwjim1
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:13 pm

Don't airlines refuse to transport pets if the outside air temperature is above or below a certain point/ It seems like transporting a pet in cargo is not such a good idea in the middle of winter time.
 
raylee67
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:53 pm

Feel sad for the owner but honestly, things happen. It's like your incoming flight got delayed and you missed your connection. You have to wait for your next connection and it happens to be a 20 hrs wait. Or it's like you get bumped because your flight was overbooked. People has to understand that if these happen to people, these can certainly happen to pets, especially when they are traveling unaccompanied. I don't quite understand when she said "if they know it's risky, they would not have shipped her pet". This risk of "getting bumped" or "missing connection" should be inherently understood. Isn't that common sense?
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:11 pm

This entire story is COMPLETE BS and the story has changed too many times to count. You can read one of the early versions on United's Facebook page if its still there but basically United really didn't do anything wrong here. The dogs stomach flipped which can happen when a dog has severe stress which of course a dog flying in the hold can have! These are the chances you take when you ship your animals, there are ways to minimize the risk and these owners did NONE of them. The wanted to use the cheapest option and no the airline should be responsible, ridiculous!
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mham001
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:16 pm

There is current thread in Tech/Ops about this that explains the standard procedures.
 
nadavatar64
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:27 pm

Im sure this was an accident but I am still so sad about this cute little dog...
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:30 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
My wife brought a Yorkie from Odessa, Ukraine to Houston, Texas on Turkish Airlines. Turkish Airlines' website says they transport lots of pets. There was about a 2 hour layover between the ODS-IST and IST-IAH legs. They required enough food and water be available in the crate for at least the expected travel time. They even allow animals to travel in the cabin, but only one may travel on any trip. Due to a cat that was booked prior to my wife's dog, her dog had to fly in the cargo hold. The IST-IAH leg was between 12 and 13 hours. The dog wasn't really happy about traveling so long in the cargo hold, but she seemed to be perfectly healthy.


Are you sure about one pet in cabin policy? I know of someone who took two on TK.
 
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:58 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
My wife brought a Yorkie from Odessa, Ukraine to Houston, Texas on Turkish Airlines. Turkish Airlines' website says they transport lots of pets. There was about a 2 hour layover between the ODS-IST and IST-IAH legs. They required enough food and water be available in the crate for at least the expected travel time. They even allow animals to travel in the cabin, but only one may travel on any trip. Due to a cat that was booked prior to my wife's dog, her dog had to fly in the cargo hold. The IST-IAH leg was between 12 and 13 hours. The dog wasn't really happy about traveling so long in the cargo hold, but she seemed to be perfectly healthy.


Are you sure about one pet in cabin policyI? I know of someone who took two on TK.


Perhaps if they were pets that knew each other and were traveling with one owner, they may have allowed an exception. TK wouldn't even allow my wife's dog to move to the cabin for the IST-IAH leg. The restriction was due to the initial 1 hour leg from ODS to IST.

My wife doesn't ever want to have the dog fly anywhere again. It's rather expensive on an ongoing basis anyway. At $300 per trip, the cost of a roundtrip is about 2/3'rds the cost of a roundtrip human ticket. It also doesn't come with any baggage allotment.

TK didn't seem to have any time of year or weather restrictions on pet travel. Her Yorkie flew in August. It's hot at all the aiports involved at that time of year. The transfer between flights happened around noon at IST. The flight arrived in Houston round 19:30 local time, but it's still pretty hot in Houston at that time. My wife says that at the recommendation of a veterinarian, she gave her dog a sedative before checking her in for the flight.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:39 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
My wife brought a Yorkie from Odessa, Ukraine to Houston, Texas on Turkish Airlines. Turkish Airlines' website says they transport lots of pets. There was about a 2 hour layover between the ODS-IST and IST-IAH legs. They required enough food and water be available in the crate for at least the expected travel time. They even allow animals to travel in the cabin, but only one may travel on any trip. Due to a cat that was booked prior to my wife's dog, her dog had to fly in the cargo hold. The IST-IAH leg was between 12 and 13 hours. The dog wasn't really happy about traveling so long in the cargo hold, but she seemed to be perfectly healthy.


Are you sure about one pet in cabin policyI? I know of someone who took two on TK.


Perhaps if they were pets that knew each other and were traveling with one owner, they may have allowed an exception. TK wouldn't even allow my wife's dog to move to the cabin for the IST-IAH leg. The restriction was due to the initial 1 hour leg from ODS to IST.

My wife doesn't ever want to have the dog fly anywhere again. It's rather expensive on an ongoing basis anyway. At $300 per trip, the cost of a roundtrip is about 2/3'rds the cost of a roundtrip human ticket. It also doesn't come with any baggage allotment.

TK didn't seem to have any time of year or weather restrictions on pet travel. Her Yorkie flew in August. It's hot at all the airports involved at that time of year. The transfer between flights happened around noon at IST. The flight arrived in Houston round 19:30 local time, but it's still pretty hot in Houston at that time. My wife says that at the recommendation of a veterinarian, she gave her dog a sedative before checking her in for the flight.

I used to work for TK in IAH. Only 1 PETC (pet in cabin) allowed per flight. I would not send a pet as a checked item from IAH on any nonUA airline unless I had to, UA has their own animal facilities. After the animals container is checked by TSA, it is sent up a very steep belt to the bag room which is exposed to the elements; trust me, it is not a nice place to be on a normal day, let alone a Houston summer. The belt is so steep that one dog I checked in actually had its container flip end-over-end to do a 180! I was so mortified that I ran upstairs to the bag room myself to check on the dog myself and to right its kennel. Just prior to departure, my boss and I actually tied down the dogs in the bulk hold ourselves.

Another time I had to actually brace myself (with TSA permission) against a kennel that was heavy enough to not gain traction on the steep belt to go up. I can scratch off "ride conveyor belt" from my bucket list!

As someone who was an agent representing an airline on a vendors behalf, I would never have my animal be handled by a vendor. I have more horror stories if you'd like to hear, just shoot me a PM. I'd only take my animal as a PETC or if I'm relocating somewhere within the contiguous US, I'd just drive.
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CALTECH
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:41 pm

Flying a pet can be very stressful for the animal. Had one the other day, a Rottweiler, that tried to get out of his cage and ripped his paws open. There was blood everywhere in that cargo compartment. Some dogs are stressed, others are very calm and take the ride nicely and arrive safely. A neighbor had her German Shepherd twist it's stomach, also called bloat. The poor dog was at home with no stress. A few hours after noticing she was lethargic and her belly was swelling, it was too late when they arrived at the Vet's office. IDK, when a dog has a medical condition, is it the airline's fault ? Remember these incidents ? Are these incidents the airlines fault or the owners ?

Dog Bites Plane
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dog-bites-plane/

Continental to change Pet Safe Plan Concerning Dangerous Dogs
http://www.pettravel.com/blog/index.php/page/12/

American Airlines have banned over-aggressive dogs, after a pit bull terrier caused havoc in the cargo hold on a flight from San Diego to New York.
It turns out the dog did quite a bit of damage
The Boeing 757 was out of service for nine days after the dog escaped from its cage and gnawed through electrical cables the thickness of a garden hose.
The crew heard repeated thumping in the hold and discovered back-up radio equipment and some navigation aids were not working.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2199110.stm
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ikramerica
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:54 pm

Blimpie wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
Airlines should refuse such transports altogether. Dogs cannot be transported like they were cats or canary birds.

Dogs are gregarious or herd animals. Members of their herd can be other dogs, other animals and/or humans. Being treated with what they consider torture by individuals, whom they do not consider herd members, is extremely stressful. Add hunger and thirst, and it is next to impossible to imagine to receive the dog at destination without at least mental destruction. This event ended with also physical destruction. It cannot be really surprising.

People who have dogs should learn that dogs are mentally very complex individuals which always seek security in the herd, and always establish a strict hierarchy in their social life. When they fail in this respect, they become desperate. Failing for any prolonged period of time, and it causes mental destruction, and sometimes physical destruction.

And of course it should not suffer thirst and starvation. Airlines are not designed for such services, so they should stick to transporting humans, canary birds, cats and hamsters.


I take it you've never had a cat before. I haven't had one yet in five decades that took to being in a cage (or a carrier) going from the house to the vet. Most cats I've had don't take to even staying in a house more than an hour or two.

But cats are different. Their instinct when cornered or scared is to hide in a small dark space until they think the danger has passed. So while it is stressful to transport a cat, they are at minimum in a small, dark space and can "ride it out" and they will recover, no worse for wear, in a few hours, days, or maybe a week, depending on the cat's previous life experiences. Cats will also tend to shut down the desire to eat or drink, and unless it's super hot, will not dehydrate due to their body construction and their ability to concentrate urine (see camels). As long as the cat was properly hydrated before the journey, they will be fine after even 36 hours with no food or water, and only slightly dehydrated even after days. This is why a cat can be locked by mistake in a garage or a moving truck for days and then come out the other end just a little thirsty and a lot hungry. Happens all the time.

Dogs will not survive any such ordeal...
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ikramerica
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Or pay the premium and fly nonstop. I cannot imagine what the owner is going through - but the onus also has to be on the consumer to gauge the risks of putting your loved one in the cargo hold.



There are no nonstop from DTW to PDX this time of year. Sounds like the dog was shipped unaccompanied.. I myself would have done something other than shipping the dog unoccupied perhaps picking the dog up myself and driving with him to his new home in Oregon. Sadly customer service is a thing of the past where no one really cares what a paying customer has to go through as everyone is to busy to care.

Then fly DTW - SEA and then drive the rest. Never, ever connect with your large dog. Lesson learned, sadly.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:08 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:

Are you sure about one pet in cabin policyI? I know of someone who took two on TK.


Perhaps if they were pets that knew each other and were traveling with one owner, they may have allowed an exception. TK wouldn't even allow my wife's dog to move to the cabin for the IST-IAH leg. The restriction was due to the initial 1 hour leg from ODS to IST.

My wife doesn't ever want to have the dog fly anywhere again. It's rather expensive on an ongoing basis anyway. At $300 per trip, the cost of a roundtrip is about 2/3'rds the cost of a roundtrip human ticket. It also doesn't come with any baggage allotment.

TK didn't seem to have any time of year or weather restrictions on pet travel. Her Yorkie flew in August. It's hot at all the airports involved at that time of year. The transfer between flights happened around noon at IST. The flight arrived in Houston round 19:30 local time, but it's still pretty hot in Houston at that time. My wife says that at the recommendation of a veterinarian, she gave her dog a sedative before checking her in for the flight.

I used to work for TK in IAH. Only 1 PETC (pet in cabin) allowed per flight. I would not send a pet as a checked item from IAH on any nonUA airline unless I had to, UA has their own animal facilities. After the animals container is checked by TSA, it is sent up a very steep belt to the bag room which is exposed to the elements; trust me, it is not a nice place to be on a normal day, let alone a Houston summer. The belt is so steep that one dog I checked in actually had its container flip end-over-end to do a 180! I was so mortified that I ran upstairs to the bag room myself to check on the dog myself and to right its kennel. Just prior to departure, my boss and I actually tied down the dogs in the bulk hold ourselves.

Another time I had to actually brace myself (with TSA permission) against a kennel that was heavy enough to not gain traction on the steep belt to go up. I can scratch off "ride conveyor belt" from my bucket list!

As someone who was an agent representing an airline on a vendors behalf, I would never have my animal be handled by a vendor. I have more horror stories if you'd like to hear, just shoot me a PM. I'd only take my animal as a PETC or if I'm relocating somewhere within the contiguous US, I'd just drive.


The itinerary between ODS and IAH on TK is the shortest possible. It requires only 1 short connection with no change of airline. Any other itinerary requires at least 2 connections in Europe and at least one change of airline. Total travel time is closer to 24 hours or more rather than 16 to 17 hours on TK.
 
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:09 pm

In 1967 we moved to Southern CA from Wisconsin. Our chihuahua was sent as live freight on a NW flight from MSP to LAX. She and 3 other dogs in the cargo area were asphyxiated from dry ice in the same area. We filed a claim but it wasn't the same. If I ever have to fly with my animals now I'll be much wiser. My SIL brought a cat to us from MSP and they had a layover in DEN and had to wait several hours for the temp to cool down so the cat would not be harmed. Other than ears not popping she had a good flight.
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:27 pm

N415XJ wrote:
The woman had every reason to believe her dog would safely get to Portland as her contract with United would have guaranteed, so I don't see how she can be seen as responsible at all here.


It was said above that said contract contains liability waivers.
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:53 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Blimpie wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
Airlines should refuse such transports altogether. Dogs cannot be transported like they were cats or canary birds.

Dogs are gregarious or herd animals. Members of their herd can be other dogs, other animals and/or humans. Being treated with what they consider torture by individuals, whom they do not consider herd members, is extremely stressful. Add hunger and thirst, and it is next to impossible to imagine to receive the dog at destination without at least mental destruction. This event ended with also physical destruction. It cannot be really surprising.

People who have dogs should learn that dogs are mentally very complex individuals which always seek security in the herd, and always establish a strict hierarchy in their social life. When they fail in this respect, they become desperate. Failing for any prolonged period of time, and it causes mental destruction, and sometimes physical destruction.

And of course it should not suffer thirst and starvation. Airlines are not designed for such services, so they should stick to transporting humans, canary birds, cats and hamsters.


I take it you've never had a cat before. I haven't had one yet in five decades that took to being in a cage (or a carrier) going from the house to the vet. Most cats I've had don't take to even staying in a house more than an hour or two.

But cats are different. Their instinct when cornered or scared is to hide in a small dark space until they think the danger has passed. So while it is stressful to transport a cat, they are at minimum in a small, dark space and can "ride it out" and they will recover, no worse for wear, in a few hours, days, or maybe a week, depending on the cat's previous life experiences. Cats will also tend to shut down the desire to eat or drink, and unless it's super hot, will not dehydrate due to their body construction and their ability to concentrate urine (see camels). As long as the cat was properly hydrated before the journey, they will be fine after even 36 hours with no food or water, and only slightly dehydrated even after days. This is why a cat can be locked by mistake in a garage or a moving truck for days and then come out the other end just a little thirsty and a lot hungry. Happens all the time.

Dogs will not survive any such ordeal...


Cats are every bit as prone to psychological trauma as dogs. My current cat was a stray who will be in a sound sleep jump, and run if someone passes gas in the house. A truck drives by, the doorbell.... you name it. Left alone in a empty room more than five minutes will cry uncontrollably. Refuses to sleep in a cat bed, go in a box (even open top). Even a five minute trip to the vet in a carrier he is so traumatized that he trembles for ten minuets after coming out.
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:15 am

Revelation wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
The woman had every reason to believe her dog would safely get to Portland as her contract with United would have guaranteed, so I don't see how she can be seen as responsible at all here.


It was said above that said contract contains liability waivers.


Just by her decisions UA should be exonerated regardless of the waivers.

She basically took a breed that on a normal basis had a very good chance from developing a serious medical conditions and not only increased the chances it would happen but also eliminate the treatment to the mort serious of those conditions and make it 100% fatal. My sister family had a breed like that and they noticed it was he was distress and took the him to the vet. They could only perform an euthanasia at that point since the window to repair Torsion (stomach flip) is two hours and is only treatable by surgery. They never knew what caused it and the vet said that is fairly typical. Stress does increase the chances of this happening the chances the dog developing the condition however that breed has a 20%-40% of developing bloat (leading cause of a Torsion) or Torsion in it's lifetime. Once she checked poor animal in she sentenced it to death if the pet developed Torsion.

She was extremely irresponsible to increase the chances of a medical condition occurring and then eliminating the ability for the pet to survive the most serious condition. If this same decision making was done to a human being and they died there would be a very good chance the person who made this decision would be facing criminal charges. The dog died because of the decisions she made prior to check-in.
 
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garpd
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:33 am

klm617 wrote:
I don't think she's trying to make money here she's just upset with the lack of compassion from United. United could have resolved this without fan fare I think if they would have been a little more compassionate and aiding the customer in resolving this. This is a big problem in the industry with very little completion with all the consolidation the customer pretty much gets a middle finger when there is a disruption in travel or other issues that arise when traveling. I have run into this with Delta several times especially in Atlanta to the lack of apathy towards the customer. Hey you're in the service industry you signed up for this so do you jobs and take care of the customer when there is an issue don't just blow them off because you're to busy a lot of this is due to lack of training because lets face it training cost money and these day companies don't like to spend money on thongs that don't bring a direct return on investment and in this day an age the customer is pretty much captive because of lack of choice in many markets.



klm617 wrote:
Sorry but if something like this happened to my dog and no one seemed to care I'd be pretty pissed to but then again I would not have done this with my dog as I am extremely concerned for her well being and there is to much left to chance when shipping a dog unaccompanied. I would have kept her by my side the entire journey one way of another. I would be curious as to what was the age of the dog being it was checked out to see if he was healthy enough to fly.


There is no evidence that UA did not care, nor is there evidence they did anything wrong. We have her obviously biased word against theirs.

Dogs do not travel unaccompanied very well. This is known fact. This dog got into such a tizzy, its stomach twisted. Something observed to happen many, many, many times with dogs that get stressed. This is not the airlines fault. In fact, if anyone is to blame, it's the woman, for subjecting her pet to this stress.

This woman also cheaped out on a non direct flight. She should have paid for an land pet courier where they stop regularly to walk the animals and fuss over them a bit.

This is a money grab, plain and simple. She's been "inconvenienced" by her own choices, but via a service, so is now holding said service responsible.
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garpd
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:38 am

Blimpie wrote:
Cats are every bit as prone to psychological trauma as dogs. My current cat was a stray who will be in a sound sleep jump, and run if someone passes gas in the house. A truck drives by, the doorbell.... you name it. Left alone in a empty room more than five minutes will cry uncontrollably. Refuses to sleep in a cat bed, go in a box (even open top). Even a five minute trip to the vet in a carrier he is so traumatized that he trembles for ten minuets after coming out.


If subjected to prolonged mistreatment, yes this can and often will happen.
But cats DO travel better unaccompanied than dogs. I've had cats all my life. I've also moved home more often than I care to remember. The cats always had an easier time of it than any dog we had. They for sure put up a fight at times when trying to put them in the basket. But that's only because 99 times out of 100, the destination in the basket is the Vet and cats just do not like Vets.

You cannot take your cat and infer his/her actions speak for the species as a whole.
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B777LRF
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Re: UA Pax Claims Dog Died After Flight From Detroit To Oregon

Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:58 am

I've lost track of the number of times we've received a deceased pet. It's usually not the temperature what kills them, as the temperature in cargo holds can be held at a reasonable level even if there is no direct temperature control, rather they die of stress. As a lover of animals, I'd never subject my pet to airline travel - the chances of survival, whilst high, are not high enough for my liking. Additionally, having witnessed the loading and un-loading of countless animals, they are clearly distressed and stress out over the experience. Not something you'd do to loved one, pet or otherwise.

DualQual wrote:
The temperature of the cargo bin is not directly controlled. Pilots are supposed to know about animals but can't do anything about the cargo temp.


That certainly depends on the aircraft type and options ticked by the airline, when they bought the aircraft. Some aircraft types do have temperature control for cargo holds, others do not. And of those who have such control, it may be an optional extra.
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