iFlyDTW wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

NK extended the booking schedule and we have gotten OAK, MYR, BOS and MSP into November, I think this year NK will do MSP year round for sure, I'm not sure about BOS, OAK is too new to tell but it's already been upgauge to an A321 this summer, and MYR has no chance of staying through the holiday season. We also may be seeing some end of summer and winter adds coming up soon too, rumors are strong about SAN.

This whole statements makes much sense. NK can do so much at DTW, they seem to have done well targeting markets with large amounts of PDEW, MCI and MSY were failures when they first started, but they continue to mature, same goes for BWI and PHL, they need time to mature. They will never be MCO or LAX, but they will eventually perform better. I recently embarked on Spirit to Tampa and it was a great ride. I believe you have mentioned BDL, EWR and SAN as being the next few routes for NK, but what about PHX or PDX?

From what I've observed, NK is very optimistic about DTW, which it remains it's 2nd and only 1 of 2 "hubs". SAN I believe will happen this year for the winter season on the A321 (sharklets), SAN is a huge hole in DTW's market when you relate to PDEW and the route being a monopoly, AAG would likely be the 3rd carrier on SAN. It would be the opposite for PDX, I think Alaska would do PDX on the A319, and then NK would jump into it, that's the trend I'm observing after adding OAK and SEA. PHX is less likely because of F9 already being in it. BDL would be an A319 easily, EWR could be an A321. I'm remaining optimistic that we will see more additions this year including BNA or AUS on the A32S, that's no question.

Detroit is not a hub for Spirit it's just a focus city like LAS,ORD,DFW and IAH and has about as many flights as a lot of the NK stations. The only true Spirit hub is FLL

klm617 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

This whole statements makes much sense. NK can do so much at DTW, they seem to have done well targeting markets with large amounts of PDEW, MCI and MSY were failures when they first started, but they continue to mature, same goes for BWI and PHL, they need time to mature. They will never be MCO or LAX, but they will eventually perform better. I recently embarked on Spirit to Tampa and it was a great ride. I believe you have mentioned BDL, EWR and SAN as being the next few routes for NK, but what about PHX or PDX?

From what I've observed, NK is very optimistic about DTW, which it remains it's 2nd and only 1 of 2 "hubs". SAN I believe will happen this year for the winter season on the A321 (sharklets), SAN is a huge hole in DTW's market when you relate to PDEW and the route being a monopoly, AAG would likely be the 3rd carrier on SAN. It would be the opposite for PDX, I think Alaska would do PDX on the A319, and then NK would jump into it, that's the trend I'm observing after adding OAK and SEA. PHX is less likely because of F9 already being in it. BDL would be an A319 easily, EWR could be an A321. I'm remaining optimistic that we will see more additions this year including BNA or AUS on the A32S, that's no question.

Detroit is not a hub for Spirit it's just a focus city like LAS,ORD,DFW and IAH and has about as many flights as a lot of the NK stations. The only true Spirit hub is FLL

False, it's a hub because back before the move to FLL the choice was not to dismantle it, there's too many customers in Detroit to have lowered it to Focus city, it may be 4th in terms of flights, but it still a hub.

I continue to believe there will soon be a second carrier flying between DTW and SAN. My guesses would also be AAG and NK. Of course it could happen that both start the route.

I think Spirit is close because historically, at least in SAN, they have served a city as a direct one-stop r/t -- via LAS for example -- then they add nonstop service. O'Hare was done this way from SAN, and NK does have a direct, no change roundtrip now between SAN and DTW (via LAS.) SAN-FLL (via IAH) is another possibility, I think.

I was rather surprised to see NK announce SAN-BWI recently -- a route already served by 2 cx -- rather than SAN-DTW. But the year is young so it could still very well happen in 2017.

AS also makes sense to me since they are picking up a lot of markets from SAN that have no current service, or perhaps a single carrier. DTW has that status, plus the bonus of DL being that single existing carrier in the market. I don't think AAG would mind at all setting up service from one of their growing focus cities in CA to a DL hub!

The problem I see with AAG right now is somewhat limited aircraft, along with a very long list of routes they want to jump on; I just don't know how high SAN-DTW would be on that list.

bb

SANFan wrote:

I continue to believe there will soon be a second carrier flying between DTW and SAN. My guesses would also be AAG and NK. Of course it could happen that both start the route.

I think Spirit is close because historically, at least in SAN, they have served a city as a direct one-stop r/t -- via LAS for example -- then they add nonstop service. O'Hare was done this way from SAN, and NK does have a direct, no change roundtrip now between SAN and DTW (via LAS.) SAN-FLL (via IAH) is another possibility, I think.

I was rather surprised to see NK announce SAN-BWI recently -- a route already served by 2 cx -- rather than SAN-DTW. But the year is young so it could still very well happen in 2017.

AS also makes sense to me since they are picking up a lot of markets from SAN that have no current service, or perhaps a single carrier. DTW has that status, plus the bonus of DL being that single existing carrier in the market. I don't think AAG would mind at all setting up service from one of their growing focus cities in CA to a DL hub!

The problem I see with AAG right now is somewhat limited aircraft, along with a very long list of routes they want to jump on; I just don't know how high SAN-DTW would be on that list.

bb

The only issue is AAG shows no desire to grow in the Detroit market. There have been several rounds of additions and all of them snubbed Detroit so I really don't hold much stock in them adding anything but their single SEA flight during the summer.

This whole thread has gotten a whole lot of stupid with the hub d$%@-measuring envy and butthurt, the WCAA witch-hunt, revisionist history and other tangential arguments.

The reality is that:
1) DL at DTW is going to grow in conjunction with the global/national/regional economy and GDP
2) the overall market is mature and low-growth in comparison to other coastal markets that have higher growth
3) actions (or inactions) by specific carriers is due to the finite amount of resources where each airline has to consider the strategic investment of resources (planes) that will in theory provide the best return on investments

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole thread has gotten a whole lot of stupid with the hub d$%@-measuring envy and butthurt, the WCAA witch-hunt, revisionist history and other tangential arguments.

The reality is that:
1) DL at DTW is going to grow in conjunction with the global/national/regional economy and GDP
2) the overall market is mature and low-growth in comparison to other coastal markets that have higher growth
3) actions (or inactions) by specific carriers is due to the finite amount of resources where each airline has to consider the strategic investment of resources (planes) that will in theory provide the best return on investments

While one and two maybe true to an extent that doesn't mean the WCAA should be out there busting their ass try to get new entrants. What you stated means that yes their job might be a bit more difficult it means they have to work twice as hard to achieve what is a fare and level playing ground for both airlines and passenger. But on number 3 you are incorrect what is happening is in the big markets airlines are dumping capacity to get a bigger share of the market, brand recognition and the like keeping fares much lower while the people in the middle of the country pay artificially high fares due to capacity control subsidizing these markets with the high fares they pay. You can't tell me that there is enough demand out of BOS for 3 flights a day by the ME3 and 3 flights and sometimes four from BOS-KEF. Sometimes you have to create a market by adding the flights first just as many carriers do but if the WCAA is not out there selling this market as a potential growth market by the ever climbing passenger number and the like because they are content sitting on their Delta laurels. Get real the isn't one dedicated cargo flight out of one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country and there is a reason for that they built the big areotroplis as a cargo hub and they have lost cargo service instead of gaining it as YIP is just about dead. So while there are challenges in this market I agree it doesn't mean you roll over and play dead it means you try harder. I'd like to know how many meetings that the WCAA has had with QR, FI and WW out of curiosity.

Does anyone have the O/D passenger percentage number verses the connecting passenger numbers for CLT, ATL and DTW

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'd like to know how many meetings that the WCAA has had with QR, FI and WW out of curiosity.

That information isn't usually accessible to the public.

P1 MBL-MDW MAY 0.5>1.1 JUN 0>1.5 JUL 0>3 AUG 0>3 SEP 0>1.3 OCT 0>1.0


Great to see Manistee getting bumped up the 3 dailies in the summer.

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole thread has gotten a whole lot of stupid with the hub d$%@-measuring envy and butthurt, the WCAA witch-hunt, revisionist history and other tangential arguments.

The reality is that:
1) DL at DTW is going to grow in conjunction with the global/national/regional economy and GDP
2) the overall market is mature and low-growth in comparison to other coastal markets that have higher growth
3) actions (or inactions) by specific carriers is due to the finite amount of resources where each airline has to consider the strategic investment of resources (planes) that will in theory provide the best return on investments

While one and two maybe true to an extent that doesn't mean the WCAA should be out there busting their ass try to get new entrants. What you stated means that yes their job might be a bit more difficult it means they have to work twice as hard to achieve what is a fare and level playing ground for both airlines and passenger. But on number 3 you are incorrect what is happening is in the big markets airlines are dumping capacity to get a bigger share of the market, brand recognition and the like keeping fares much lower while the people in the middle of the country pay artificially high fares due to capacity control subsidizing these markets with the high fares they pay. You can't tell me that there is enough demand out of BOS for 3 flights a day by the ME3 and 3 flights and sometimes four from BOS-KEF. Sometimes you have to create a market by adding the flights first just as many carriers do but if the WCAA is not out there selling this market as a potential growth market by the ever climbing passenger number and the like because they are content sitting on their Delta laurels. Get real the isn't one dedicated cargo flight out of one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country and there is a reason for that they built the big areotroplis as a cargo hub and they have lost cargo service instead of gaining it as YIP is just about dead. So while there are challenges in this market I agree it doesn't mean you roll over and play dead it means you try harder. I'd like to know how many meetings that the WCAA has had with QR, FI and WW out of curiosity.

There are cargo flights. By all three of the largest air freight companies in the world. But I do actually agree that more needs to be done to attract cargo service, that doesn't get talked about enough.

Whether it's extending the runway at YIP or building sufficient warehouse and handling capability at DTW, I think it's about time the metro area had some more freighter flights, I have to imagine the market is there for something more, in fact I'm still surprised that LH Cargo pulled out, given the continued investment by the auto industry in the area.

Interesting notes regarding DL service for DTW, these are subject to change.
-A321 on PDX cut back to 739, PDX will remain in a mid winter hiatus into 2018, should be worried of a possible AS entrance.
-A321 scheduled 2x daily to ATL through the summer.
-Less 757 and A320 flying, more 717, M90 and 737 flying.
-MEX on DL will be a 757 through the summer.
-CUN extended to year round, 4x weekly through the summer.
-All M90 to FLL, 717 to MIA.
-SNA remains 73W.
-SAV will go on a winter hiatus.
-SRQ once weekly from daily.
-MUC remains summer seasonal.

thedetroitpole wrote:

Stuttgart would be he next logical add for DL, but there's no way that they will do it since MUC did not go the way Delta wanted it to. DL international additions are likely done with the exception of GDL and HKG.

How was MUC supposed to go? DL never mentioned that this route would be year-round. I find it interesting that MUC has almost as many O&D passengers as AMS. Granted AMS is a hub connecting hub, but for as much connectivity as there is, the fact that MUC has almost as much traffic as AMS, indicates that MUC should be able to work year round. It also goes to show you how little of the traffic on DTW-AMS is local.

hjulicher wrote:

How was MUC supposed to go? DL never mentioned that this route would be year-round. I find it interesting that MUC has almost as many O&D passengers as AMS. Granted AMS is a hub connecting hub, but for as much connectivity as there is, the fact that MUC has almost as much traffic as AMS, indicates that MUC should be able to work year round. It also goes to show you how little of the traffic on DTW-AMS is local.

The press release doesn't discuss seasonality but it was definitely loaded as year-round service. The original target was business traffic but summer season indicates that wasn't the case.

compensateme wrote:

hjulicher wrote:

How was MUC supposed to go? DL never mentioned that this route would be year-round. I find it interesting that MUC has almost as many O&D passengers as AMS. Granted AMS is a hub connecting hub, but for as much connectivity as there is, the fact that MUC has almost as much traffic as AMS, indicates that MUC should be able to work year round. It also goes to show you how little of the traffic on DTW-AMS is local.

The press release doesn't discuss seasonality but it was definitely loaded as year-round service. The original target was business traffic but summer season indicates that wasn't the case.

I think the only reason Delta threw us this bone is because there was word that Lufthansa was on the verge of adding DTW-MUC and they didn't want to lose that market knowing of the very high O/D between the 2 cities. I think the reason this is only operated during the summer again to preserve the loads on the ATL-MUC flight if you offer a nonstop half the year then the customers mind is directed towards Delta when flying from Detroit to Munich so in the low season those passenger will be routed over ATL to preserve that flights viability in the slow winter months Does anyone know the O/D between ATL-STR verses DTW-STR.

klm617 wrote:

I think the only reason Delta threw us this bone is because there was word that Lufthansa was on the verge of adding DTW-MUC and they didn't want to lose that market knowing of the very high O/D between the 2 cities. I think the reason this is only operated during the summer again to preserve the loads on the ATL-MUC flight if you offer a nonstop half the year then the customers mind is directed towards Delta when flying from Detroit to Munich so in the low season those passenger will be routed over ATL to preserve that flights viability in the slow winter months Does anyone know the O/D between ATL-STR verses DTW-STR.

I doubt LH seriously considered DTW-MUC. DL launched service because the route was requested by the local business community; unfortunately, it didn't work out, but DL is operating it on behalf of the seasonal tourist market.

MUC is the nearest major airport to the start (or finish) of many of the Viking River Cruises.

There's speculation going on in another thread saying AS may start something from DTW soon, but I disagree, 2017 isn't the year for AS in DTW, don't forget DTW is still a young station and needs more time for its SEA flight to mature, in the meantime I think PDX is what AS would be looking at from DTW, I suspect a 2018 announcement and start.

flymco753 wrote:

There's speculation going on in another thread saying AS may start something from DTW soon, but I disagree, 2017 isn't the year for AS in DTW, don't forget DTW is still a young station and needs more time for its SEA flight to mature, in the meantime I think PDX is what AS would be looking at from DTW, I suspect a 2018 announcement and start.

DTW is arguably the largest market that offers growth potential to other airlines (and growth doesn't have to be finite growth but rather reallocation of traffic). Jetlanta might insist that 'nobody's wants' the market but I disagree - these are for-profit companies after all.

compensateme wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

There's speculation going on in another thread saying AS may start something from DTW soon, but I disagree, 2017 isn't the year for AS in DTW, don't forget DTW is still a young station and needs more time for its SEA flight to mature, in the meantime I think PDX is what AS would be looking at from DTW, I suspect a 2018 announcement and start.

DTW is arguably the largest market that offers growth potential to other airlines (and growth doesn't have to be finite growth but rather reallocation of traffic). Jetlanta might insist that 'nobody's wants' the market but I disagree - these are for-profit companies after all.

Problem is there is really only one airline that sees that and it's NK. Most airlines would disagree and say that they'll just waste money at DTW and I hope they change their minds.

Quick Data Point for Delta Hub Traffic Flow Discussions-Cost Per Emplanement

ATL: $2.86
DTW: $9.86
MSP: $6.17
SLC: $3.92
CVG: $9.18
JFK: $24.62
LAX: $14.07
SEA: $10.12
BOS: $14.54

NK update. OAK has been up sized to an A321 and the results are looking good so far. In the current station area BDL, EWR, and SAN seem the most likely. For new stations BNA and AUS, I think they both will be coming soon no doubt. JAX, CLT, RDU, MEM, STL, and SMF are possibilities. Have you guys seen the new Spirit hangar at night?

I was looking at seat maps for a few weird flights like the 757 that goes to IND, it appears the flight remains relatively full, only about an average of 15 seats open, which isn't bad for DTW-IND on a 757.

I was looking at ALB and it depends on the day, there could be 60 seats open on an A320 or an A319 that's oversold, tonight and last night the flights were and are full.

Aside of these 2 flights, BDL has been full or oversold the last few weeks without the snowstorm, I wouldn't be surprised to an addition on NK, I think it'd have to start seasonally if so.

As I've said a few times, BDL will come seasonally.

Another interesting question, do you guys see WN adding HOU at any time? I think HOU would do well in servicing connections to Central America. Something is strange with WN and Michigan, I know FNT has a short lifespan but GRR, I mean they've had a bunch of Florida routes and they've been cut, DTW used to have TPA, RSW and MCO, why did WN pull out of these markets? I talked to a few WN guys and they keep telling me the nonstop MCO flight on Saturdays is always full with both passengers and bags and a lot of people go through ATL and BWI to get to Florida, it's kind of strange to me.

GSP psgr wrote:

Quick Data Point for Delta Hub Traffic Flow Discussions-Cost Per Emplanement

ATL: $2.86
DTW: $9.86
MSP: $6.17
SLC: $3.92
CVG: $9.18
JFK: $24.62
LAX: $14.07
SEA: $10.12
BOS: $14.54

Completely meaningless. CPE is not a check the airlines cut per passenger but rather the total costs paid / enplanements. Given the amount of traffic flowing via ATL, naturally it has a low CPE.

I'd bet the actual costs paid by DL at MSP and DTW are pretty darn similar --- at DTW, it's the other airlines (North Terminal) that get boned.

Who is coming to DTW first? WOW or Icelandair? Could DTW support both?

flymco753 wrote:

I was looking at seat maps for a few weird flights like the 757 that goes to IND, it appears the flight remains relatively full, only about an average of 15 seats open, which isn't bad for DTW-IND on a 757.

I was looking at ALB and it depends on the day, there could be 60 seats open on an A320 or an A319 that's oversold, tonight and last night the flights were and are full.

Aside of these 2 flights, BDL has been full or oversold the last few weeks without the snowstorm, I wouldn't be surprised to an addition on NK, I think it'd have to start seasonally if so.

Seat maps aren't necessarily good indication of much, and even loads when average systemwide load factors are in the mid/high 80% range. Only off-peak and off-days are anything less than full. Airlines are very good at managing their fare buckets and inventory to get full flights.

Add to the fact its spring break period with many people in the Midwest and Northeast flying to sun & fun markets. IND also have 1st and 2nd round NCAA games this week and next week, driving up demand for the market.

As for NK on DTW-BDL, I'm not really sure it works for NK. There is almost no leisure demand on this route. Its a business-heavy market and also for DL a big connection route as BDL doesn't have many nonstops to secondary markets. BDL works for NK to fly to sun markets.

iFlyDTW wrote:

Who is coming to DTW first? WOW or Icelandair? Could DTW support both?

I think for the Detroit market Icelandair would be better but my gut tells me it's going to be WOW Air. I really don't think the market can support both but if this really is a hub for Spirit like you say I think a hook up between WOW and Spirit could be a very good thing for both. But in reality though probably neither will ever serve Detroit. To be quite honest I think the window of opportunity has passed to get either one of these airlines in Detroit just as it has passed to gain a flight from the ME3 or Turkish.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I was looking at seat maps for a few weird flights like the 757 that goes to IND, it appears the flight remains relatively full, only about an average of 15 seats open, which isn't bad for DTW-IND on a 757.

I was looking at ALB and it depends on the day, there could be 60 seats open on an A320 or an A319 that's oversold, tonight and last night the flights were and are full.

Aside of these 2 flights, BDL has been full or oversold the last few weeks without the snowstorm, I wouldn't be surprised to an addition on NK, I think it'd have to start seasonally if so.

Seat maps aren't necessarily good indication of much, and even loads when average systemwide load factors are in the mid/high 80% range. Only off-peak and off-days are anything less than full. Airlines are very good at managing their fare buckets and inventory to get full flights.

Add to the fact its spring break period with many people in the Midwest and Northeast flying to sun & fun markets. IND also have 1st and 2nd round NCAA games this week and next week, driving up demand for the market.

As for NK on DTW-BDL, I'm not really sure it works for NK. There is almost no leisure demand on this route. Its a business-heavy market and also for DL a big connection route as BDL doesn't have many nonstops to secondary markets. BDL works for NK to fly to sun markets.

DTW is a hub for Spirit so they could offer east west connections over Detroit just as DL from BDL. Also don't discount the number of people that just want to visit family at a reasonable fare not everyone is looking at traveling for vacation. I think businesses are always looking for cheaper alternatives when they have fly their employees around the country on business.

I suspect that it's too late for ME3 carriers to arrive in Detroit, particularly with the regressive, acrimonious foreign policy direction of the Trump administration. For me it's not an economic judgment, but a political one. The openness and global collaboration that allowed the ME3 and other carriers to expand global networks in the past 15 years are closing as nationalism shifts geopolitics. I also don't see somebody like Qatar feeling like the Detroit region, saddled as it is with stupids and homebodies, is particularly conducive to developing a market even if opportunities exist (and they definitely do). AF, LH, DL, and RJ all have it covered. Can you imagine all the shitwits from Macomb County boarding a Qatar flight!? (just an amusing though experiment...)

As for transatlantic LCC, I like the idea of linking up to Spirit. I could see one of the Scandi airlines making it actually attractive and feasible for more people in Detroit to go to Europe—people who wouldn't necessarily consider it right now, when it's much easier to get cheap flights to all those Walmart destinations in Florida (or Vegas).

^ All of that sounds snarky as hell (and it is), but it's also objectively true. This is the sort of thing that the WCAA is constantly fighting klm617: it's not appeasing DL, it's trying to appeal to airlines for new routes when all they have to offer is the FOX News and reality TV-watching demographic.

reasonable wrote:

I suspect that it's too late for ME3 carriers to arrive in Detroit, particularly with the regressive, acrimonious foreign policy direction of the Trump administration. For me it's not an economic judgment, but a political one. The openness and global collaboration that allowed the ME3 and other carriers to expand global networks in the past 15 years are closing as nationalism shifts geopolitics. I also don't see somebody like Qatar feeling like the Detroit region, saddled as it is with stupids and homebodies, is particularly conducive to developing a market even if opportunities exist (and they definitely do). AF, LH, DL, and RJ all have it covered. Can you imagine all the shitwits from Macomb County boarding a Qatar flight!? (just an amusing though experiment...)

As for transatlantic LCC, I like the idea of linking up to Spirit. I could see one of the Scandi airlines making it actually attractive and feasible for more people in Detroit to go to Europe—people who wouldn't necessarily consider it right now, when it's much easier to get cheap flights to all those Walmart destinations in Florida (or Vegas).

^ All of that sounds snarky as hell (and it is), but it's also objectively true. This is the sort of thing that the WCAA is constantly fighting klm617: it's not appeasing DL, it's trying to appeal to airlines for new routes when all they have to offer is the FOX News and reality TV-watching demographic.

Let me clarify— I suspect that the data do in fact support a case for one or more ME3 carriers, as well as LLCs. I'm sure if you ask the folks at WCAA what their moonshot is they'd say Emirates, British/retain VA, and more to Asia. But contrary to what people here say, it's not a simple matter of "if it's going to be profitable airlines will launch it." That is the reason I'm always snarking on Detroit, suggesting that despite data showing breadth in the Detroit market, it's probably not going to show depth. For that, the region needs to come out of the shadows a bit, create new international connections economically and culturally, and diversify economically a bit (things look good on this front). Most importantly, folks in the suburbs have to stop voting against regional collaboration (like the transit millage). SE Michigan's own people keep it lingering in regionalism. That's why the depth is shallow.

reasonable wrote:

reasonable wrote:

I suspect that it's too late for ME3 carriers to arrive in Detroit, particularly with the regressive, acrimonious foreign policy direction of the Trump administration. For me it's not an economic judgment, but a political one. The openness and global collaboration that allowed the ME3 and other carriers to expand global networks in the past 15 years are closing as nationalism shifts geopolitics. I also don't see somebody like Qatar feeling like the Detroit region, saddled as it is with stupids and homebodies, is particularly conducive to developing a market even if opportunities exist (and they definitely do). AF, LH, DL, and RJ all have it covered. Can you imagine all the shitwits from Macomb County boarding a Qatar flight!? (just an amusing though experiment...)

As for transatlantic LCC, I like the idea of linking up to Spirit. I could see one of the Scandi airlines making it actually attractive and feasible for more people in Detroit to go to Europe—people who wouldn't necessarily consider it right now, when it's much easier to get cheap flights to all those Walmart destinations in Florida (or Vegas).

^ All of that sounds snarky as hell (and it is), but it's also objectively true. This is the sort of thing that the WCAA is constantly fighting klm617: it's not appeasing DL, it's trying to appeal to airlines for new routes when all they have to offer is the FOX News and reality TV-watching demographic.

Let me clarify— I suspect that the data do in fact support a case for one or more ME3 carriers, as well as LLCs. I'm sure if you ask the folks at WCAA what their moonshot is they'd say Emirates, British/retain VA, and more to Asia. But contrary to what people here say, it's not a simple matter of "if it's going to be profitable airlines will launch it." That is the reason I'm always snarking on Detroit, suggesting that despite data showing breadth in the Detroit market, it's probably not going to show depth. For that, the region needs to come out of the shadows a bit, create new international connections economically and culturally, and diversify economically a bit (things look good on this front). Most importantly, folks in the suburbs have to stop voting against regional collaboration (like the transit millage). SE Michigan's own people keep it lingering in regionalism. That's why the depth is shallow.

I think that the entrance of a Europe on low cost carrier will create a new market here that doesn't exist at the moment those in that market t are driving to ORD or YYZ. I have seen the list that the WCAA are targeting for new service and it's even more unrealistic than the destinations we bring up here that's why nothing ever happens and you are correct BA and EK are pipe dreams. They also have a direct connection listed to DEL and BOM their best option for this is Jet Airways being they are a Skyteam member. A perfect opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone would be DTW-MAN-BOM or DTW-MAN-DEL but again they are not targeting the right options there isn't even a mention of Dublin on their list which is a closer realty than the markets they are targeting. They need to get out there and do some public opinion polls and ask the people what would serve them best and work from there. But again I stand by my statement that the choices they make has to do a lot with appeasing Delta but we can agree to disagree on that. As many state the Detroit market is no longer about the city of Detroit it's about the surrounding areas now and the focus has to be away from serving the city to serving the region and if people look deeper this is a very wealthy region that's looking to go places given the right options and the right price which Delta is not doing in this market far to little capacity and far to high prices in a lot of markets out of DTW.

reasonable wrote:

^ All of that sounds snarky as hell (and it is), but it's also objectively true. This is the sort of thing that the WCAA is constantly fighting klm617: it's not appeasing DL, it's trying to appeal to airlines for new routes when all they have to offer is the FOX News and reality TV-watching demographic.

I suspect the poster you mentioned is one of the Faux News and reality TV-watching minions...

He/she/it is certainly the source of a huge percentage of the faux speculation and conspiracy theories on A.net.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

As for NK on DTW-BDL, I'm not really sure it works for NK. There is almost no leisure demand on this route. Its a business-heavy market and also for DL a big connection route as BDL doesn't have many nonstops to secondary markets. BDL works for NK to fly to sun markets.

Actually I disagree about BDL not working for DTW, but I agree that majority of the market is business. PDEW on DTW to BDL is around 300 in the winter and peaks at 450 in the summer, which sets pretty good standards, I would say we should wait and see how NK works in BDL before excluding it because there's a leisure market, it's only a summer seasonal trip though so that's what it would start out as. There is a risk of DL going 6 daily and all A320's since the second mods include TV screens, than they deploy basic economy and NK could be screwed.

I've observed a lot of things when NK adds a route, NK takes passengers away from other airlines. My friend who travels to San Francisco on a monthly basis already began purchasing tickets to OAK because of a much better round trip deal. I feel like it's an entirely different customer base though, but in Detroit there's a fine line between people who use NK and F9 verse people who use AA, DL and UA.

Well with about six months until the Summer 2018 additions begin to be announced what do you think the chance of any of these happing might be or are they all DOA.

DTW-MAN DL
DTW-DUB DL
DTW-KEF FI WW
DTW-DOH QR
DTW-WAW LO
DTW-ICN KE
DTW-AMS KL

Or any other suggestions you might have

This conversation just loops in the same speculative eddy over and over again.

Maybe there can be a discussion on what kind of growth the region would need to experience to bring these wet dreams to reality.

reasonable wrote:

This conversation just loops in the same speculative eddy over and over again.

Maybe there can be a discussion on what kind of growth the region would need to experience to bring these wet dreams to reality.

\
The region right now is in the top ten in the country as far as growth so it's not disposable income that is the problem. The real problem in this region is the lack of commitment to make some of these routes happen let's be real if WW thinks it can make PIT work year round than Detroit is a no brainer with a much larger population base and at their fares don't tell me they couldn't get takers in Detroit to make a DTW-KEF flight successful. The problem is all the negative feed back this market always gets even on the forum for the most part when there is any suggestion made about bringing something new into this market it's always poopooed while markets that already have over capacity where yields are low already always get comment why does this airline fly here or when is this route going to be started and everyone rallies around that idea. Let's be real here one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country without a single dedicated cargo flight and PIT gets twice weekly QR cargo flights and no one sees anything wrong with that. You may all be content with giving all the revenue to ORD that DTW is losing but I for one think someone is sleeping on the job. So it's not the economic growth that is the problem it's the lack of vision and commitment to go out in the market place to land these new flights. MSP has 2 hub carriers and there is rumor of a third while this airport sit's on it's Delta laurels. What happened to the commitment to bring EK into the Detroit market all that fanfare with the petition and then silence all of a sudden why not keep pushing that intuitive in the public sector with conviction because again the ball was dropped. So if we want to get something new in this market that's going to benefit the Detroit area we need to rally around the airport and keep pushing the positive intention out there and just maybe something will happen but I assure you as long as we keep throwing negativity out there nothing is going to happen. For every no there is a yes and for every can't there is a can so let change our perspective on how we view this market and just maybe something good may happen.

klm617 wrote:

Well with about six months until the Summer 2018 additions begin to be announced what do you think the chance of any of these happing might be or are they all DOA.

DTW-AMS KL

Or any other suggestions you might have

Do you have any idea on what a JV is and what "metal neutral" means?

The main reason right now as to why DTW probably doesn't have EK is because of the travel ban and the works of getting EWR-ATH removed so it puts the airline in a bad spot. I guarantee you with the trafffic DTW has going to Dubai, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka you could fill a 773. For the Middle East and West Asia, Mumbai and Delhi are the top travel destinations from DTW, AMM has good traffic too, enough for RJ to fly to an non partner airport like ORD, JFK, etc.

DL's DTW-GRU flight went from daily to 3x weekly, I know the reason isn't because of the lack in volume from DTW, but is it because of the weak economy in Brazil? If DL dropped it do you think LATAM could pick it up? They'd provide connections on the Brazil end.

klm617 wrote:

reasonable wrote:

This conversation just loops in the same speculative eddy over and over again.

Maybe there can be a discussion on what kind of growth the region would need to experience to bring these wet dreams to reality.

\
The region right now is in the top ten in the country as far as growth so it's not disposable income that is the problem. The real problem in this region is the lack of commitment to make some of these routes happen let's be real if WW thinks it can make PIT work year round than Detroit is a no brainer with a much larger population base and at their fares don't tell me they couldn't get takers in Detroit to make a DTW-KEF flight successful. The problem is all the negative feed back this market always gets even on the forum for the most part when there is any suggestion made about bringing something new into this market it's always poopooed while markets that already have over capacity where yields are low already always get comment why does this airline fly here or when is this route going to be started and everyone rallies around that idea. Let's be real here one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country without a single dedicated cargo flight and PIT gets twice weekly QR cargo flights and no one sees anything wrong with that. You may all be content with giving all the revenue to ORD that DTW is losing but I for one think someone is sleeping on the job. So it's not the economic growth that is the problem it's the lack of vision and commitment to go out in the market place to land these new flights. MSP has 2 hub carriers and there is rumor of a third while this airport sit's on it's Delta laurels. What happened to the commitment to bring EK into the Detroit market all that fanfare with the petition and then silence all of a sudden why not keep pushing that intuitive in the public sector with conviction because again the ball was dropped. So if we want to get something new in this market that's going to benefit the Detroit area we need to rally around the airport and keep pushing the positive intention out there and just maybe something will happen but I assure you as long as we keep throwing negativity out there nothing is going to happen. For every no there is a yes and for every can't there is a can so let change our perspective on how we view this market and just maybe something good may happen.

DTW - Hub for Delta and Spirit
MSP - Hub for Delta and Sun Country (not sure who you think the 3rd is)

And I don't feel that the feedback regarding DTW getting new service isn't always negative. But possibly out of being realistic. Spirit did just build a new mx hanger at DTW, so that has possibilities.

Do you think an airline is going to forgo expansion to DTW because they hate it? Seriously!!? If an airline sees there being a chance of making money, IMO I would think they would jump at the chance. As far as FI and/or WW, they are stretched pretty thin as far as a/c right now. But more are being added soon. So who knows what could happen. Also, do you communicate with WCAA at all? There may be deals in the works, but they just have yet to be released to the public.

johns624 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Well with about six months until the Summer 2018 additions begin to be announced what do you think the chance of any of these happing might be or are they all DOA.

DTW-AMS KL

Or any other suggestions you might have

Do you have any idea on what a JV is and what "metal neutral" means?

Yes I do it means nothing to the end customer it is a cooperate term only. Again if metal neutral means as you say DL is operating 3 A332 on DTW-AMS take 2 of those and replace them with a KLM A332 if it's metal neutral than what's the difference same plane and the customer will appreciate the upgrade in inflight service on those 2 flights. Pull the 2 AMS-ATL KLM flights and move them to DTW and let Delta have all the AMS-ATL flights on their own metal if it's all the same but in reality it isn't.

reasonable wrote:

This conversation just loops in the same speculative eddy over and over again.

(1) Please explain how this differs from the lion's share of threads on a.net -- DL ORD/LAX, DL fleet renewal, 757MAX, etc. are topics that appear almost weekly, and formulate the core of the forum.

(2) Please offer an explanation to the question I've asked you several times before -- why make these comments in the DTW threads but no other?

Maybe there can be a discussion on what kind of growth the region would need to experience to bring these wet dreams to reality.

Ridiculous.

The lowest fares for weekend travel from DTW to LON during the peak summer travel season are about $1700 for one-stop flights (high enough that lower fares combining multiple tariffs & multiple stops are available for a couple hundred less). From YYZ, they're $700 (and nonstop is available for $1000); from ORD, multiple options around $1000; from MSP, FI is $1100. You seriously don't believe DTW could be a sustainable market for FI? A small faction of the market is already driving to YYZ & ORD for lower fares and others who simply would not otherwise go will be enticed to make the trip. That's just one example.

And gas for growth ... Do you think DL launched SEA/ORD in attempt to grow the market? What about UA DTW/SFO? It's pretty ignorant to believe that every single route is launched to grow a market.

Reality is, there IS growth potential at DTW status quo:
- It's the largest market from LAX without competition from more than one legacy (and, unsurprisingly, the highest average fares);
- It has among st the least LCC exposure of major markets;
- etc.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

reasonable wrote:

This conversation just loops in the same speculative eddy over and over again.

Maybe there can be a discussion on what kind of growth the region would need to experience to bring these wet dreams to reality.

\
The region right now is in the top ten in the country as far as growth so it's not disposable income that is the problem. The real problem in this region is the lack of commitment to make some of these routes happen let's be real if WW thinks it can make PIT work year round than Detroit is a no brainer with a much larger population base and at their fares don't tell me they couldn't get takers in Detroit to make a DTW-KEF flight successful. The problem is all the negative feed back this market always gets even on the forum for the most part when there is any suggestion made about bringing something new into this market it's always poopooed while markets that already have over capacity where yields are low already always get comment why does this airline fly here or when is this route going to be started and everyone rallies around that idea. Let's be real here one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country without a single dedicated cargo flight and PIT gets twice weekly QR cargo flights and no one sees anything wrong with that. You may all be content with giving all the revenue to ORD that DTW is losing but I for one think someone is sleeping on the job. So it's not the economic growth that is the problem it's the lack of vision and commitment to go out in the market place to land these new flights. MSP has 2 hub carriers and there is rumor of a third while this airport sit's on it's Delta laurels. What happened to the commitment to bring EK into the Detroit market all that fanfare with the petition and then silence all of a sudden why not keep pushing that intuitive in the public sector with conviction because again the ball was dropped. So if we want to get something new in this market that's going to benefit the Detroit area we need to rally around the airport and keep pushing the positive intention out there and just maybe something will happen but I assure you as long as we keep throwing negativity out there nothing is going to happen. For every no there is a yes and for every can't there is a can so let change our perspective on how we view this market and just maybe something good may happen.

DTW - Hub for Delta and Spirit
MSP - Hub for Delta and Sun Country (not sure who you think the 3rd is)

And I don't feel that the feedback regarding DTW getting new service isn't always negative. But possibly out of being realistic. Spirit did just build a new mx hanger at DTW, so that has possibilities.

Do you think an airline is going to forgo expansion to DTW because they hate it? Seriously!!? If an airline sees there being a chance of making money, IMO I would think they would jump at the chance. As far as FI and/or WW, they are stretched pretty thin as far as a/c right now. But more are being added soon. So who knows what could happen. Also, do you communicate with WCAA at all? There may be deals in the works, but they just have yet to be released to the public.

AS has been brought up many times as wanting to use MSP for an east west mini hub. I beg to differ with you on DTW being a hub for NK it's more of a focus city. Sun Country is a true hub carrier at MSP because they are focused on building that market while Spirit is not focused on building up Detroit their scope is all over the place and we are fourth on the rung as far as departures go. That's right as far as FI and WW go but that's because they have added just about every where else except DTW again this airport is not beating anybody to the finish line when it comes to new service. I think the reason Detroit gets overlooked is because of lack of vision and poor marketing not because of any economic reason that people try to throw out there. So what your saying is PIT has a better chance of success than Detroit would with a larger population base who's customers travel quite frequently by car or train to Chicago and Toronto to get affordable fares because of the artificially high fares out of Detroit to Europe sorry that doesn't wash with me that's just bad marketing.

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

\
The region right now is in the top ten in the country as far as growth so it's not disposable income that is the problem. The real problem in this region is the lack of commitment to make some of these routes happen let's be real if WW thinks it can make PIT work year round than Detroit is a no brainer with a much larger population base and at their fares don't tell me they couldn't get takers in Detroit to make a DTW-KEF flight successful. The problem is all the negative feed back this market always gets even on the forum for the most part when there is any suggestion made about bringing something new into this market it's always poopooed while markets that already have over capacity where yields are low already always get comment why does this airline fly here or when is this route going to be started and everyone rallies around that idea. Let's be real here one of the biggest manufacturing bases in the country without a single dedicated cargo flight and PIT gets twice weekly QR cargo flights and no one sees anything wrong with that. You may all be content with giving all the revenue to ORD that DTW is losing but I for one think someone is sleeping on the job. So it's not the economic growth that is the problem it's the lack of vision and commitment to go out in the market place to land these new flights. MSP has 2 hub carriers and there is rumor of a third while this airport sit's on it's Delta laurels. What happened to the commitment to bring EK into the Detroit market all that fanfare with the petition and then silence all of a sudden why not keep pushing that intuitive in the public sector with conviction because again the ball was dropped. So if we want to get something new in this market that's going to benefit the Detroit area we need to rally around the airport and keep pushing the positive intention out there and just maybe something will happen but I assure you as long as we keep throwing negativity out there nothing is going to happen. For every no there is a yes and for every can't there is a can so let change our perspective on how we view this market and just maybe something good may happen.

DTW - Hub for Delta and Spirit
MSP - Hub for Delta and Sun Country (not sure who you think the 3rd is)

And I don't feel that the feedback regarding DTW getting new service isn't always negative. But possibly out of being realistic. Spirit did just build a new mx hanger at DTW, so that has possibilities.

Do you think an airline is going to forgo expansion to DTW because they hate it? Seriously!!? If an airline sees there being a chance of making money, IMO I would think they would jump at the chance. As far as FI and/or WW, they are stretched pretty thin as far as a/c right now. But more are being added soon. So who knows what could happen. Also, do you communicate with WCAA at all? There may be deals in the works, but they just have yet to be released to the public.

AS has been brought up many times as wanting to use MSP for an east west mini hub. I beg to differ with you on DTW being a hub for NK it's more of a focus city. Sun Country is a true hub carrier at MSP because they are focused on building that market while Spirit is not focused on building up Detroit their scope is all over the place and we are fourth on the rung as far as departures go. That's right as far as FI and WW go but that's because they have added just about every where else except DTW again this airport is not beating anybody to the finish line when it comes to new service. I think the reason Detroit gets overlooked is because of lack of vision and poor marketing not because of any economic reason that people try to throw out there. So what your saying is PIT has a better chance of success than Detroit would with a larger population base who's customers travel quite frequently by car or train to Chicago and Toronto to get affordable fares because of the artificially high fares out of Detroit to Europe sorry that doesn't wash with me that's just bad marketing.

Where did you hear about MSP becoming a mini-hub for AS?

2 flights to SEA
1 flight to PDX
2 flights to SFO
1 flight to SAN
1 flight to ? (they are either adding a future flight somewhere or will have an a/c on the ground for 17 hours)

That hardly makes it a mini-hub or even a focus city. There was a rumor years ago about a merger with AS/SY. But with all the $$$ AS just spent to purchase VX that is highly unlikely.

While DTW might not being a booming airport like SEA or DEN, I wouldn't say it's shrinking, but is more just growing slowly. Maybe you should communicate your concerns to WCAA. If the public doesn't speak to them they would never know what the public is looking for in future airline service.

[quote="klm617"][quote="lavalampluva"]I beg to differ with you on DTW being a hub for NK it's more of a focus city. Sun Country is a true hub carrier at MSP because they are focused on building that market while Spirit is not focused on building up Detroit their scope is all over the place and we are fourth on the rung as far as departures go./quote] NK is a hub to DTW, always has and always will. DTW has so much NK loyalty that's why it hasn't gone anywhere, and with the new hangar they will be adding more flights now that the RONs can be stored in a good spot. No worries NK is definitely going to keep the momentum for Detroit, the only question is what's next, I don't know if itll be new stations or what.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

DTW - Hub for Delta and Spirit
MSP - Hub for Delta and Sun Country (not sure who you think the 3rd is)

And I don't feel that the feedback regarding DTW getting new service isn't always negative. But possibly out of being realistic. Spirit did just build a new mx hanger at DTW, so that has possibilities.

Do you think an airline is going to forgo expansion to DTW because they hate it? Seriously!!? If an airline sees there being a chance of making money, IMO I would think they would jump at the chance. As far as FI and/or WW, they are stretched pretty thin as far as a/c right now. But more are being added soon. So who knows what could happen. Also, do you communicate with WCAA at all? There may be deals in the works, but they just have yet to be released to the public.

AS has been brought up many times as wanting to use MSP for an east west mini hub. I beg to differ with you on DTW being a hub for NK it's more of a focus city. Sun Country is a true hub carrier at MSP because they are focused on building that market while Spirit is not focused on building up Detroit their scope is all over the place and we are fourth on the rung as far as departures go. That's right as far as FI and WW go but that's because they have added just about every where else except DTW again this airport is not beating anybody to the finish line when it comes to new service. I think the reason Detroit gets overlooked is because of lack of vision and poor marketing not because of any economic reason that people try to throw out there. So what your saying is PIT has a better chance of success than Detroit would with a larger population base who's customers travel quite frequently by car or train to Chicago and Toronto to get affordable fares because of the artificially high fares out of Detroit to Europe sorry that doesn't wash with me that's just bad marketing.

Where did you hear about MSP becoming a mini-hub for AS?

2 flights to SEA
1 flight to PDX
2 flights to SFO
1 flight to SAN
1 flight to ? (they are either adding a future flight somewhere or will have an a/c on the ground for 17 hours)

That hardly makes it a mini-hub or even a focus city. There was a rumor years ago about a merger with AS/SY. But with all the $$$ AS just spent to purchase VX that is highly unlikely.

While DTW might not being a booming airport like SEA or DEN, I wouldn't say it's shrinking, but is more just growing slowly. Maybe you should communicate your concerns to WCAA. If the public doesn't speak to them they would never know what the public is looking for in future airline service.

The rumor mill is churning out DCA and LGA from MSP on AS

One facet of the Detroit international market is that LH chooses to fill their plane up with cheap competitive fares to India, but chooses not to compete on fares to Europe out of Detroit, probably because Delta has little competitive advantage on these India tickets, and they don´t want to go fully at it with Delta in their hub city. The India market out of Detroit is competitive and only about $100-200 more than Chicago, New York or Toronto. Because there is no ME3 in Detroit, this helps LH still capture business travel to Europe and make still good money on what European tickets they do sell with their duopoly with Delta while making average or slightly better profits to India than other LH markets selling tickets to India. I noticed in Chicago, the cheapest LH tickets to India are typically through MUC on their weaker demand flight there on an A340.

I booked my Christmas ticket to Africa out of JFK which was $1100 cheaper than Detroit for a good ticket, and $650 cheaper than a very inconvenient routing. Occasionally, Jet Blue and Turkish or Icelandair have a decently priced ticket out of Detroit to Europe, but it usually entails spending 8 or more hours in Boston, due to flight timings and availability.

The bleeding of international travelers out of DTW to ORD, JFK, EWR, YQG, and YYZ is real.

compensateme wrote:

(1) Please explain how this differs from the lion's share of threads on a.net -- DL ORD/LAX, DL fleet renewal, 757MAX, etc. are topics that appear almost weekly, and formulate the core of the forum.

(2) Please offer an explanation to the question I've asked you several times before -- why make these comments in the DTW threads but no other?

Ridiculous. :roll:

1. I only follow this thread, so can't speak to this.
2. ^

I think you misread my wet dreams comment, and I didn't clarify: mostly, I was referring to klm's idea of DTW-AMS on KLM, MAN/DUB on DL, etc. The same conversation over and over, mostly based on wish.

I agree with you compensateme that there is huge potential in the DTW market. I'd like to quantify it both current state and projectively to understand what it would take for a carrier like KLM to insist on bringing its brand to Detroit, or EK starting DXB (well, not now thanks to Trump), or LH adding DUS, or whatever the hell it is. It would be great if this thread weren't just people wishing but was focused on how innovations in the region's economy could help actualize growth in the DTW market...

Puissance wrote:

One facet of the Detroit international market is that LH chooses to fill their plane up with cheap competitive fares to India, but chooses not to compete on fares to Europe out of Detroit, probably because Delta has little competitive advantage on these India tickets, and they don´t want to go fully at it with Delta in their hub city. The India market out of Detroit is competitive and only about $100-200 more than Chicago, New York or Toronto. Because there is no ME3 in Detroit, this helps LH still capture business travel to Europe and make still good money on what European tickets they do sell with their duopoly with Delta while making average or slightly better profits to India than other LH markets selling tickets to India. I noticed in Chicago, the cheapest LH tickets to India are typically through MUC on their weaker demand flight there on an A340.

I booked my Christmas ticket to Africa out of JFK which was $1100 cheaper than Detroit for a good ticket, and $650 cheaper than a very inconvenient routing. Occasionally, Jet Blue and Turkish or Icelandair have a decently priced ticket out of Detroit to Europe, but it usually entails spending 8 or more hours in Boston, due to flight timings and availability.

The bleeding of international travelers out of DTW to ORD, JFK, EWR, YQG, and YYZ is real.

This whole statement is accurate, I know of at least 10 people from my travel group that decided to fly from YQG, make a connection in YYZ than continue to Vienna. More and more people are choosing Air Canada both out of DTW and YQG, for example, I know a Chinese family in Ann Arbor who goes to Shanghai at least 6 times per year and instead of using Deltas direct flight theyve been flying either out of YQG or DTW on Air Canada and either making one connection in Toronto or 2 stops and fly Pacific from Vancouver. Its real, its happening, I think Hainan could do DTW to PVG and Wow could do DTW to KEF, than you have to problems solved, next would be Latin America and the Caribbean.

reasonable wrote:

compensateme wrote:

(1) Please explain how this differs from the lion's share of threads on a.net -- DL ORD/LAX, DL fleet renewal, 757MAX, etc. are topics that appear almost weekly, and formulate the core of the forum.

(2) Please offer an explanation to the question I've asked you several times before -- why make these comments in the DTW threads but no other?

Ridiculous.

1. I only follow this thread, so can't speak to this.
2. ^

I think you misread my wet dreams comment, and I didn't clarify: mostly, I was referring to klm's idea of DTW-AMS on KLM, MAN/DUB on DL, etc. The same conversation over and over, mostly based on wish.

I agree with you compensateme that there is huge potential in the DTW market. I'd like to quantify it both current state and projectively to understand what it would take for a carrier like KLM to insist on bringing its brand to Detroit, or EK starting DXB (well, not now thanks to Trump), or LH adding DUS, or whatever the hell it is. It would be great if this thread weren't just people wishing but was focused on how innovations in the region's economy could help actualize growth in the DTW market...

The economy is not the problem the problem rests rests on the shoulders of the airport authority to do their homework and market the region and this airport effectively. While markets all over the country are expanding service options this airport attracts barely nothing. I could even understand the protection of Delta and it's yields in this market if it was committed in growing Detroit but that's not the case as it continues to move international traffic away from Detroit in favor of SEA and ATL and to a lessor extent SLC and MSP.