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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
Well I think we have until the end of Ictober for anything new to be announced internationally from Detroit for next summer. AF and KL have not had a summer 2018 announcement yet there is speculation that AF is adding SEA could it be withing the rehlm of possibility that KL will take over on of the DL DTW-AMS flights in summer 2018
If KL does take one over it'll be the first of 4 flights on the 332 to replace the DL 332.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:25 pm

klm617 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
A microgap in the Delta network which would be great to have filled is the lack of a daylight flight to LHR from a major connecting hub (VS has one from Kennedy that is not all that well timed for connections). Based off AA's timing for ORD-LHR on AA90/91

DLXXX DTW-LHR 1000 2030 752
DLXXX LHR-DTW 0830 1215 752 (the return timing could be anything)

It's one mission DTW is much better positioned for than ATL; the longer hang time from the Southeast makes it a dicier operational proposition for LHR's curfew, and it is really better suited to a 752 due to likely loads. Would require some slot shuffling at LHR, though they'll have an extra flexible set from PHL.




I think a 0700 departure from LHR and a 1045 am arrival in Detroit would work well. I think in addition to this DTW-MAN is a big whole being for the most part MAN is cut of to one stop connections for a great deal of the DL/VS network without back tracking or out of the way routings. The problem is DL is not to keen on starting international routes from cities other than ATL or JFK. I do think you LHR idea is a good one they could at least give it a try.



Also Ireland is in the same situation unless you're going to the North or Southeastern US you are subject to back tracking or a double connect so another whole in the Delta network is an Ireland Detroit flight.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:30 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Well I think we have until the end of Ictober for anything new to be announced internationally from Detroit for next summer. AF and KL have not had a summer 2018 announcement yet there is speculation that AF is adding SEA could it be withing the rehlm of possibility that KL will take over on of the DL DTW-AMS flights in summer 2018
If KL does take one over it'll be the first of 4 flights on the 332 to replace the DL 332.



In the past KL has flown the third flight rotation the one arriving at around 3 pm and leaving at 7 pm
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
shoelessjoe
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 pm

...I can remember when Wardair started daytime service on YYZ-LGW, the "Dayliner" on the A310 - Canadian continued to operate it (and AC still does to LHR).

GSP psgr wrote:
A microgap in the Delta network which would be great to have filled is the lack of a daylight flight to LHR from a major connecting hub (VS has one from Kennedy that is not all that well timed for connections). Based off AA's timing for ORD-LHR on AA90/91

DLXXX DTW-LHR 1000 2030 752
DLXXX LHR-DTW 0830 1215 752 (the return timing could be anything)

It's one mission DTW is much better positioned for than ATL; the longer hang time from the Southeast makes it a dicier operational proposition for LHR's curfew, and it is really better suited to a 752 due to likely loads. Would require some slot shuffling at LHR, though they'll have an extra flexible set from PHL.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.

Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:14 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.

Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.



J1 tends to use primary airports, so if they go into Detroit it would probably be DTW. But, I doubt they will go into DTW in the near future, because any route from DTW would have competition from DL and J1, for the most part, avoids routes with competition.
ORD & IND

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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:51 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.

Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.


Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.
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11725Flyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:02 pm

klm617 wrote:
Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.


And we all saw how that worked out.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:09 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.

Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.


Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.

Oh, you poor thing. LGA is literally on Wall Street, SFO straddles downtown SF, and of course FRA is close to downtown as well.

There are very few cities with a second airport closer to Downtown, and most of them have main airport's that are very far away.

15 minutes at a good hour is better than what you can get for some "Downtown" airports like LGA (measured from midtown or wall street), SJC (with regards to the big tech HQs in Silicon Valley), and to GMP. 45mins in traffic is nothing.

If traffic is really a problem, you've got train tracks near the airport. Literally build a spur, and run some trains to downtown. Easy.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 am

Midwestindy wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.

Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.



J1 tends to use primary airports, so if they go into Detroit it would probably be DTW. But, I doubt they will go into DTW in the near future, because any route from DTW would have competition from DL and J1, for the most part, avoids routes with competition.

That's true as well. I was just focusing on the bigger of the two fallacies in his post.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:43 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Does it make sense for anyone to throw millions into reopening DET, when DTW has a lot of Gates and a lot of expansion space, and when FNT isn't that far away?
I'd say it doesn't. There may be a niche space for them in DTW, but reopening DET is DUMB.


Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.

Oh, you poor thing. LGA is literally on Wall Street, SFO straddles downtown SF, and of course FRA is close to downtown as well.

There are very few cities with a second airport closer to Downtown, and most of them have main airport's that are very far away.

15 minutes at a good hour is better than what you can get for some "Downtown" airports like LGA (measured from midtown or wall street), SJC (with regards to the big tech HQs in Silicon Valley), and to GMP. 45mins in traffic is nothing.

If traffic is really a problem, you've got train tracks near the airport. Literally build a spur, and run some trains to downtown. Easy.


So what you're telling me is you support the cost of adding the infrastructure of a rail line which is realty would probably cost more than DET upgrades to get it up and running your comment makes no sense at all.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:52 am

11725Flyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.


And we all saw how that worked out.


The idea was good it just was that Proair was not managed correctly. It's plan was flawed from the beginning because the aircraft it chose were to large. Had they gone with a Fokker F70 or F28 they might have been a bit more successful and they offered the $30 fares to GM employee's and their families which also killed revenue. There was also a push from the Northern suburbs to end the flights because of noise. Today if an airline were to start at DET the A319 would be the perfect plane to get started economically also a good choice would be the C series aircraft fits well with the short runway.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.

Oh, you poor thing. LGA is literally on Wall Street, SFO straddles downtown SF, and of course FRA is close to downtown as well.

There are very few cities with a second airport closer to Downtown, and most of them have main airport's that are very far away.

15 minutes at a good hour is better than what you can get for some "Downtown" airports like LGA (measured from midtown or wall street), SJC (with regards to the big tech HQs in Silicon Valley), and to GMP. 45mins in traffic is nothing.

If traffic is really a problem, you've got train tracks near the airport. Literally build a spur, and run some trains to downtown. Easy.


So what you're telling me is you support the cost of adding the infrastructure of a rail line which is realty would probably cost more than DET upgrades to get it up and running your comment makes no sense at all.

I strongly doubt it'll be more, since the tracks already exist two miles outside the airport, and the Amtrak station inside the city exists as well. Two platforms, a station building, and a few trains are far cheaper than a new terminal and renovate everything around DET.
And even if the train was costlier, it'd bring more good to more people, including the GM executive going to Tokyo and the tourist going to Florida.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:47 pm

Detroit needs mass transit, specifically a train system to the airport. If Detroit is a serious contender for Amazon and they do choose Detroit, someone has to build a rail system, I'd like to use MARTA as an example, starts at the airport and takes you to the city from there.
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jordanh
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.

Oh, you poor thing. LGA is literally on Wall Street, SFO straddles downtown SF, and of course FRA is close to downtown as well.
There are very few cities with a second airport closer to Downtown, and most of them have main airport's that are very far away.
15 minutes at a good hour is better than what you can get for some "Downtown" airports like LGA (measured from midtown or wall street), SJC (with regards to the big tech HQs in Silicon Valley), and to GMP. 45mins in traffic is nothing.
If traffic is really a problem, you've got train tracks near the airport. Literally build a spur, and run some trains to downtown. Easy.

So what you're telling me is you support the cost of adding the infrastructure of a rail line which is realty would probably cost more than DET upgrades to get it up and running your comment makes no sense at all.

I don't know why I bother to feed the troll... but sometimes I can't stop myself:

You are proposing that your city spend money it doesn't have to rebuild a run-down facility that might - might - attract one tenant, which tenant might offer a few domestic flights a day to limited destinations.

Others are suggesting it would be better for the metro area to spend money upgrading its transportation network with a project that would benefit multiple operators and large numbers of travelers flying from an airport that services infinitely more cities, around the world, and probably offer additional congestion relief to non-travelers in the area.

I am sure you cannot grasp the differences here... but the rest of us can. That is why everyone thinks you are really.... how can I say it?
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:31 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Oh, you poor thing. LGA is literally on Wall Street, SFO straddles downtown SF, and of course FRA is close to downtown as well.
There are very few cities with a second airport closer to Downtown, and most of them have main airport's that are very far away.
15 minutes at a good hour is better than what you can get for some "Downtown" airports like LGA (measured from midtown or wall street), SJC (with regards to the big tech HQs in Silicon Valley), and to GMP. 45mins in traffic is nothing.
If traffic is really a problem, you've got train tracks near the airport. Literally build a spur, and run some trains to downtown. Easy.

So what you're telling me is you support the cost of adding the infrastructure of a rail line which is realty would probably cost more than DET upgrades to get it up and running your comment makes no sense at all.

I don't know why I bother to feed the troll... but sometimes I can't stop myself:

You are proposing that your city spend money it doesn't have to rebuild a run-down facility that might - might - attract one tenant, which tenant might offer a few domestic flights a day to limited destinations.

Others are suggesting it would be better for the metro area to spend money upgrading its transportation network with a project that would benefit multiple operators and large numbers of travelers flying from an airport that services infinitely more cities, around the world, and probably offer additional congestion relief to non-travelers in the area.

I am sure you cannot grasp the differences here... but the rest of us can. That is why everyone thinks you are really.... how can I say it?



You have no clue you are preaching to the choir. I am a great believer in public transportation but the problem while you and I see it from the same perspective the rest of the region doesn't. If you look back in history you will see how General Motors and Firestone trashed the Detroit public transportation system in favor of people having their own cars.The problem is you still have that mindset in this region "I want my own car" it not a mindset that is easy to over come. Now if Detroit can land the Amazon contract they will have no choice but to develop a viable system which is a good thing but until that happens I assure you that the mass transportation in the Detroit area will remain status quo. As the system stands not it's unreliable for people who need to use the bus to get to work and there is little or no effort focused on fixing that because it's not a popular or relevant agenda to most who live in the tricounty area. I used to use the bus for my travels from work to home and what is a 15 minute was a 45 transit time on the bus because sometime i'd make the connection depending on traffic and sometimes I didn't but when every thing went right I could get home in 20 minutes which was acceptable but that was the exception more than the norm. The system has to be made reliable and that's the first step. So when you look at it in those terms and upgrade at DET to land a carrier there is more in the realm of possibility there than is for an adequate public transportation system to get you to the airport from the north and east side of Detroit. Just look at the transit times on the Smart Bus from say Troy to Metro Airport and you'll see how impractical and unreliable that journey might be.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So what you're telling me is you support the cost of adding the infrastructure of a rail line which is realty would probably cost more than DET upgrades to get it up and running your comment makes no sense at all.

I don't know why I bother to feed the troll... but sometimes I can't stop myself:

You are proposing that your city spend money it doesn't have to rebuild a run-down facility that might - might - attract one tenant, which tenant might offer a few domestic flights a day to limited destinations.

Others are suggesting it would be better for the metro area to spend money upgrading its transportation network with a project that would benefit multiple operators and large numbers of travelers flying from an airport that services infinitely more cities, around the world, and probably offer additional congestion relief to non-travelers in the area.

I am sure you cannot grasp the differences here... but the rest of us can. That is why everyone thinks you are really.... how can I say it?



You have no clue you are preaching to the choir. I am a great believer in public transportation but the problem while you and I see it from the same perspective the rest of the region doesn't. If you look back in history you will see how General Motors and Firestone trashed the Detroit public transportation system in favor of people having their own cars.The problem is you still have that mindset in this region "I want my own car" it not a mindset that is easy to over come. Now if Detroit can land the Amazon contract they will have no choice but to develop a viable system which is a good thing but until that happens I assure you that the mass transportation in the Detroit area will remain status quo. As the system stands not it's unreliable for people who need to use the bus to get to work and there is little or no effort focused on fixing that because it's not a popular or relevant agenda to most who live in the tricounty area. I used to use the bus for my travels from work to home and what is a 15 minute was a 45 transit time on the bus because sometime i'd make the connection depending on traffic and sometimes I didn't but when every thing went right I could get home in 20 minutes which was acceptable but that was the exception more than the norm. The system has to be made reliable and that's the first step. So when you look at it in those terms and upgrade at DET to land a carrier there is more in the realm of possibility there than is for an adequate public transportation system to get you to the airport from the north and east side of Detroit. Just look at the transit times on the Smart Bus from say Troy to Metro Airport and you'll see how impractical and unreliable that journey might be.

You're spewing garbage.
1) Transit from Troy may well be despicable, but its connections to DET aren't much better.
2) Most of this country has that car-owning fetish, but Transit connections to airports are growing. DEN, DFW, IAD, and so on all have Transit now, or will soon. If Texans, the most independent-minded group on the planet, can swallow a train with fixed schedules, so can Detroit (assuming the traffic really is bad).
3) DET could serve flights to the East Coast. Maybe it could hold flights to SFO, GDL, or LAX. But there's not a chance in hell it'll get a flight to the motor hubs of Japan or western Germany. The busy GM executive going there will find no use in DET, but plenty in a train to DTW.
4) The North and East Side of Detroit aren't where big business is. That'd be downtown. And even if we assume they do, there are pre-existing, active rail tracks from downtown Detroit beelining to both Pontiac and Sterling Heights, and beyond. Plopping stations there and in DTW, and buying trains, is cheaper than opening DET, operating it, and bribing an airline to hub it.
5) The odds of the NIMBYs accepting more traffic in DET are about 0.0005%. The chances of the NIMBYs accepting a train are higher.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:02 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
You're spewing garbage.


Hahaha.
 
hjulicher
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:32 am

klm617 wrote:
Absolutely it makes sense from downtown it's about 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour it can take 30 to 45 minutes from downtown to DTW. DET is a much more convenient option if you are a downtown business executive. Why do you think GM dumped so much money into ProAir because using DET over DTW was a much more attractive option for them.


No what would make more sense is to spend the limited resources on improving public transport from Downtown Detroit to DTW. If DTW is going to grow and attract new entrants, it's better for the air service to be concentrated at one airport than across three or four. Frankly speaking, metro Detroit suffers from 'over-sprawl' and will learn very soon how expensive it is to maintain all the water, garbage, roads, electricity services to these one story homes across an area larger than the state of Rhode Island! If there were a direct high-speed light rail line to DTW that took 15-20 minutes, there is then no need to have DET. That should be the vision!

I'm a metro Detroiter who now lives in Europe and if DTW and SE Michigan were to think outside the box, the best way would be to improve connectivity to the existing infrastructure we have in place rather than rebuild an airport that is landlocked and in dire condition.

In regards to the entire thread whether DTW-LON has room for another entrant, maybe it does, but there are larger fish to fry for BA, VS and DY. DTW should focus on gaining new connections to new cities to add to the breadth of options rather continue to concentrate on the top 5 O&Ds.

The WOW Air service to KEF will be proving in that it will not only add a new destination (KEF) but increase connectivity to Scandinavia and Northern Europe. My only concern is the timetable which doesn't allow for quick connections to most of WOW's European gateways but at their price-point, if it doesn't work it speaks volume regarding the local market and willingness to travel. This of course is changing as downtown Detroit becomes more hip and full of millenials.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:51 pm

^well said, and I think if Amazon were to persue Detroit they know that a rail system will be built, I wouldn’t mind seeing a rail that starts at the old train station, goes west, south and north. West all the way to Ann Arbor, South through the suburbs, and north through the suburbs similar to MARTA only it runs predominately N/S where Detroit transit would predominately run E/W.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:17 pm

Quick facts:

DTW-SNA upgrade to the 757 is scheduled over a month early, Feb 16 is the day the 757 will replace the 73W and daily service will commence in the last week of March. This has to speak about how well the flight is doing. I suspect if they're happy than SJC could happen sooner or later. Lets see how the slot allocation plays into DTW though.

LH is bringing the 744 in again this time in early March as opposed to mid-summer, it was a great sight to see at DTW this summer.

RSW in March will be the first DL Florida A321 route, as of right now there's no other A321's coming in at that time and the aircraft would sit on the ground for hours, it makes me think if they'll replace a few ATL flights or even TPA or FLL to turn them at DTW. Next summer DTW will begin seeing more 321's. SAN will be 4x daily A321, LAX will have 1, SEA will also have 1, PHX will have 2, with RSW seeing 321's as soon as March, I suppose TPA and FLL could be next for FL since the 757 is bigger and DL could use that on MCO.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:50 pm

Yeah I was wondering why they wouldn't make the flight daily after switching to the 757. In my opinion, 2018 doesn't seem so bad to me. I don't know if Spirit will add anything for the summer though, but they will add something eventually. So to review, we have: WOW air on A321 DTW-KEF x4 weekly, starts April 26th. (Isn't the departure at like 1:00 AM though?) AM back on MTY, daily ERJ 190, resumes March 1st. (It should last much longer this time with the codeshare in place.) Southwest adding seasonal X1 weekly TPA from March 10th. Nice but barely any flights. Frontier on the other side of New York; x3 weekly ISP. (Will it last?) Begins April 5th 2018. And finally Delta adding 767-300 service to CDG (from 19 May)along with DL 98/99 also becoming a 767-300. AMS also gets a 10% percent capacity upgrade. And then we say goodbye to the Air France A340.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:28 am

^We'll say Au Revoir on Feb 18 for a Feb 19 777, I'll try to be in Detroit for the Inagural. Even with CDG going down to 2x 76W's, with 2 76W's and a 777-200 that's still an impressive increase in seats for both CDG and AMS. I'm really excited to see the array of different widebodies next summer from all airlines, the A330-200/-300, 777-200ER/LR, 359, 744, 76W, and 788. International narrowbodies excluding the Cancun like destinations will be the 321, 73W, 757, 319, and 320. I'd like to see someone go in with the 77W, the first airline to do that will most likely be EK.

The departure on the KEF flight is at 12:50am, CBP can't be happy about that. I feel the same way with MTY though, the codeshare is what it needed, O&D fills the morning departures to Mexico just fine. F9 should've added TPA too, I'm still very salty about that. ISP will be interesting, I think it'll work out fine. TTN was in the same position when it first started, although it started daily on the 319.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:58 am

flymco753 wrote:
^We'll say Au Revoir on Feb 18 for a Feb 19 777, I'll try to be in Detroit for the Inagural. Even with CDG going down to 2x 76W's, with 2 76W's and a 777-200 that's still an impressive increase in seats for both CDG and AMS. I'm really excited to see the array of different widebodies next summer from all airlines, the A330-200/-300, 777-200ER/LR, 359, 744, 76W, and 788. International narrowbodies excluding the Cancun like destinations will be the 321, 73W, 757, 319, and 320. I'd like to see someone go in with the 77W, the first airline to do that will most likely be EK.

The departure on the KEF flight is at 12:50am, CBP can't be happy about that. I feel the same way with MTY though, the codeshare is what it needed, O&D fills the morning departures to Mexico just fine. F9 should've added TPA too, I'm still very salty about that. ISP will be interesting, I think it'll work out fine. TTN was in the same position when it first started, although it started daily on the 319.


My question is why wasn't the code share put on the last time they started it on May 1st of this year ?
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TerminalD
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:02 am

klm617 wrote:
My question is why wasn't the code share put on the last time they started it on May 1st of this year ?

I've been told that code share in competitive markets was delayed due to regulatory approval. I think on the Mexican DGAC side.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
^We'll say Au Revoir on Feb 18 for a Feb 19 777, I'll try to be in Detroit for the Inagural. Even with CDG going down to 2x 76W's, with 2 76W's and a 777-200 that's still an impressive increase in seats for both CDG and AMS. I'm really excited to see the array of different widebodies next summer from all airlines, the A330-200/-300, 777-200ER/LR, 359, 744, 76W, and 788. International narrowbodies excluding the Cancun like destinations will be the 321, 73W, 757, 319, and 320. I'd like to see someone go in with the 77W, the first airline to do that will most likely be EK.

The departure on the KEF flight is at 12:50am, CBP can't be happy about that. I feel the same way with MTY though, the codeshare is what it needed, O&D fills the morning departures to Mexico just fine. F9 should've added TPA too, I'm still very salty about that. ISP will be interesting, I think it'll work out fine. TTN was in the same position when it first started, although it started daily on the 319.



I'm just hoping and praying the WOW flight sticks. Not and optimal departure time but time will tell.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:56 pm

I think it will. I plan on flying WOW to Amsterdam or preferably Düsseldorf next year. Delta's flights to Europe really aren't affortable.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Does anyone else think the curb appeal for DTW is horrible? Compared to airports like BNA, MCO, even CLT and ATL, DTW looks bare and unwelcoming to a traveler. If the area had more trees and more appealing signs for the terminals and airlines I think it would be perfect. I don’t know how to post pictures but to compare MCO, there’s big, bright and noticeable signs as well as a decent landscape of trees whereas DTW’s signage has airlines out of order, bare landscape for the most part, and the signs that show the airlines is small and basic. If DTW wants to stand out with competitors, curb appeal needs to be fixed.
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reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:25 pm

Yes, it should be absolutely replete with trees. The car rental cluster should be consolidated and replaced with prairie. For that matter, the entire freeway between DTW and downtown should be a lush parkway. Why not?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm

reasonable wrote:
Yes, it should be absolutely replete with trees. The car rental cluster should be consolidated and replaced with prairie. For that matter, the entire freeway between DTW and downtown should be a lush parkway. Why not?
I know you're being sarcastic but to me this sounds perfect, quite similar to how MCO has a lot cattle farms in the area as you drive east off the north exit and in both directions from the south exit.
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reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:04 pm

No, I'm not being sarcastic! I'm dead serious.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:51 pm

Delta expands flagship A350 service to Europe and China
By spring 2018, Delta’s A350 will be offered on Detroit-Shanghai service and select Detroit-Amsterdam flights.
Delta has scheduled its flagship A350-900 aircraft on one of four daily flights between Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, effective March 31, 2018. Amsterdam will be the first trans-Atlantic destination for Delta's A350 aircraft, offering customers an elevated travel experience in every class of service throughout their flight. Delta will also deploy the A350 on Detroit-Shanghai service beginning April 19, 2018.

With the addition of Amsterdam, Delta will fly five international routes from Detroit using the A350. The first aircraft is scheduled to enter service later this month between Detroit and Tokyo-Narita on Oct. 30, with service to Seoul, Beijing and Shanghai starting Nov. 18, Jan. 17 and April 19 respectively.

The aircraft features the award-winning Delta One Suite and an all-new cabin of service in Delta Premium Select, as well as an enhanced Main Cabin. Delta is the North American launch carrier for the A350.

"The A350 on one of four daily Delta flights between Detroit and Amsterdam will be a great asset for its enhanced customer experience and the superb operating efficiencies it will bring," said Dwight James, Delta's Senior Vice President – Trans-Atlantic. "Amsterdam is our largest European hub and we're delighted that Delta customers and those of our joint venture partner, KLM, will be able to enjoy an all-new Delta in-flight experience between Europe and the United States."

Highlights of Delta's A350 include:

Delta One Suite

The award-winning Delta One Suites offer up to 32 customers a private, personal experience, with a full-height door at every suite for enhanced privacy and comfort. Each suite features a fully flat-bed seat with direct aisle access, as well as more stowage for personal items, larger in-flight entertainment screens and memory foam enhanced comfort cushions.

Delta Premium Select

Designed with comfort in mind, Delta Premium Select offers more personal space with up to 38 inches of pitch, seat width of 18.5 inches, seven inches of recline and adjustable leg and head rests. Customers will arrive well-rested thanks to upgraded pillows, blankets and amenity kits to give them all the travel essentials they need to settle in.

Main Cabin

Customers benefit from free seatback in-flight entertainment on high definition screens, in-seat power ports at every row and high capacity overhead bins. Meanwhile, the A350 features larger windows and optimized cabin pressure, temperature and humidity to help customers feel more refreshed after a long-haul flight.

​The aircraft is equipped with high-speed 2Ku internet connectivity and customers will have access to free mobile messaging while on board through iMessage, WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger.
 
BDL757
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:05 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
Delta expands flagship A350 service to Europe and China
By spring 2018, Delta’s A350 will be offered on Detroit-Shanghai service and select Detroit-Amsterdam flights.
Delta has scheduled its flagship A350-900 aircraft on one of four daily flights between Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, effective March 31, 2018. Amsterdam will be the first trans-Atlantic destination for Delta's A350 aircraft, offering customers an elevated travel experience in every class of service throughout their flight. Delta will also deploy the A350 on Detroit-Shanghai service beginning April 19, 2018.


Just waiting now to see how this will be spun as a bad thing for DTW, seeing as how DL neglects and isn't as committed to the Detroit market. :roll: :P
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:59 pm

BDL757 wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
Delta expands flagship A350 service to Europe and China
By spring 2018, Delta’s A350 will be offered on Detroit-Shanghai service and select Detroit-Amsterdam flights.
Delta has scheduled its flagship A350-900 aircraft on one of four daily flights between Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, effective March 31, 2018. Amsterdam will be the first trans-Atlantic destination for Delta's A350 aircraft, offering customers an elevated travel experience in every class of service throughout their flight. Delta will also deploy the A350 on Detroit-Shanghai service beginning April 19, 2018.


Just waiting now to see how this will be spun as a bad thing for DTW, seeing as how DL neglects and isn't as committed to the Detroit market. :roll: :P
This is awesome news, I'll miss the 747 but that's 9 350 frames which is impressive.
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jubguy3
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:46 am

BDL757 wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
Delta expands flagship A350 service to Europe and China
By spring 2018, Delta’s A350 will be offered on Detroit-Shanghai service and select Detroit-Amsterdam flights.
Delta has scheduled its flagship A350-900 aircraft on one of four daily flights between Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, effective March 31, 2018. Amsterdam will be the first trans-Atlantic destination for Delta's A350 aircraft, offering customers an elevated travel experience in every class of service throughout their flight. Delta will also deploy the A350 on Detroit-Shanghai service beginning April 19, 2018.


Just waiting now to see how this will be spun as a bad thing for DTW, seeing as how DL neglects and isn't as committed to the Detroit market. :roll: :P


Well, according to klm617, its probably the fact that KLM isn't taking over the route and the joint venture doesn't care about putting "premium" metal in detroit.

KLM isn't coming back. Teehee. And I say this as someone from SLC who got KLM in may of 2016... the flight is only 3x weekly seasonal but load factors are at 83%. DTW is just saturated with traffic to AMS
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:50 pm

I would like to see additional capacity to PVG and ICN. I doubt Korean air will come any time soon. What could be done is adding an extra x4 weekly A350 to ICN and x3 weekly to PVG. Thoughts? We need more frames of course...
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:04 am

I’m usually a positive poster when it comes to Delta but I will admit by now I was expecting some sort of good news for dtw from the joint venture with aero Mexico. I expected to see maybe gdl added. The only thing I will say is that dtw-cun is daily year round now so that’s good but I hope something more comes soon
 
BigTexFlyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:40 am

BenflysDTW wrote:
I would like to see additional capacity to PVG and ICN. I doubt Korean air will come any time soon. What could be done is adding an extra x4 weekly A350 to ICN and x3 weekly to PVG. Thoughts? We need more frames of course...


There are no more slots for PVG unless DL moves them from other cities to DTW.

KE will happen when KL happens, and thats about as likely as DTW-SCL happening.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:09 am

BigTexFlyer wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
I would like to see additional capacity to PVG and ICN. I doubt Korean air will come any time soon. What could be done is adding an extra x4 weekly A350 to ICN and x3 weekly to PVG. Thoughts? We need more frames of course...


There are no more slots for PVG unless DL moves them from other cities to DTW.

KE will happen when KL happens, and thats about as likely as DTW-SCL happening.
At this point, virtually any route other than what DTW has (internationally) is as likely as that, not very much at all. DTW is very well served and until WW stimulates some European markets, which may not even happen at all, than you might see DUB or BCN, but it’ll be on nobody but DL. WW has built itself virtually a perfect niche for this market for some time, or until some hypothetical big Barcelona based firm announced major operations in the area (very unlikely) it’ll be the same for some time. DL and AM has added the necessary capacity to make sure it’s either very difficult or non existent for a Mexican LCC to enter service.

OTOH, you can continue to see domestic growth fueled by Spirit. Spirit has found itself in a very good position with DTW, so expect domestic expansion to come from them in the future.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:15 pm

As we begin to close in on the last 2 months of the year, I'd say it's been a pretty good year for DTW. AM introduced daily flights to MTY and MEX, WW announced ultra low fares to connect DTW with Europe, Air France and Delta improved CDG service from 2 to 3x daily while AF increases capacity from an A340 to a 777, and DL running a 76W and 332 to add to total capacity, DL also increased the amount of seats going to LHR and AMS as well. The A350 is making its debut tomorrow on the NRT route, and overall DTW will be the official home of the A350 with a total of 8 daily frames. Lufthansa graced DTW's presence with the 744 this summer, and will be back earlier and longer next year. DTW was also a primary escape route for the hurricanes this year for both Florida and Puerto Rico, dealing with several humanitarian flights and flying full 747s to MCO to help people like myself escape what could have been potentially been the worst natural disaster for us since Andrew and Charley. Spirit also temporarily relocated their HQ from Miramar to DTW in order to keep their operations going. Domestically, DTW lost out on a lot, but gained some potentially important services like ISP on F9. WN will be adding TPA service for the winter and SNA seems to be a great performer, hence its increase to daily from a 73W to a 757.

As we look into the future, I think DTW's growth is going to be fueled by Spirit. I am pretty firm in believing that NK could add daily flights to BDL, PBI, SAN, PHX and PDX and considering new stations whatever they'll be.

I've fizzled out on AA adding LAX, but I think there's more potential for AS to fly LAX. I don't think it'll happen in 2018 because of the fact that AS has more fish to fry with DTW, like SAN or SFO, but I won't throw it out since it's a possibility.

I feel like since F9 left DTW out of the TPA expansion, that every market around DTW got TPA, but not DTW, it should undoubtedly be the next route F9 adds from DTW, because DTW-TPA is a much larger market than CMH/IND/MKE/MSP-TPA. It's much more significant because these airports all have just as much competition. F9 could've added AUS too, but they didn't so I feel F9's dedication to this market isn't there. I don't see F9 doing much with DTW in the future.

As I prepare my preliminary forecast on DTW for 2018, what other things do you see happening? In terms of expansion, the master plan calls for an 8 gate expansion on the south end of the D concourse which gives 3 options, as well as a new control tower and the ability for the C Concourse to handle jets like the 717, M88, 319, etc.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:28 pm

Did you mean that you were fizzled that AA did not add LAX?
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:42 pm

I think the only route DL will add any time soon is SJC. I doubt they will ever add BCN, MAD, DUB, MAN, or resume HKG. They could also increase YVR to daily. Rome and Munich have capacity to be served in the Winter, at least at 3-4 times weekly. Both routes are not only for lesuire travelers, as we already know. It would be great if NK grew to 40-45 flights by 2022 (5 years). New routes will come, but 2018 looks like a great year so far.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
As I prepare my preliminary forecast on DTW for 2018, what other things do you see happening? In terms of expansion, the master plan calls for an 8 gate expansion on the south end of the D concourse which gives 3 options, as well as a new control tower and the ability for the C Concourse to handle jets like the 717, M88, 319, etc.

None of those are going to happen in the short to medium term. They were included as options for future expansion in the revised master plan but not are firm commitments and none have funding secured.

In 2018 you should start to see demolition of the Smith & Berry terminals which will lead eventually to the 4 additional gates on the North Terminal. This is for 3 narrowbody gates on the north end, and 1 additional widebody/FIS capable gates on the South end. Plus will lead to a whole bunch more RON/hardstand positions, and improved deicing facilities.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:27 am

BenflysDTW wrote:
Did you mean that you were fizzled that AA did not add LAX?
No, my efforts in analyzing AA doing DTW-LAX is done, because I'm very convinced it won't happen.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:35 am

BenflysDTW wrote:
I think the only route DL will add any time soon is SJC. I doubt they will ever add BCN, MAD, DUB, MAN, or resume HKG. They could also increase YVR to daily. Rome and Munich have capacity to be served in the Winter, at least at 3-4 times weekly. Both routes are not only for lesuire travelers, as we already know. It would be great if NK grew to 40-45 flights by 2022 (5 years). New routes will come, but 2018 looks like a great year so far.
FCO was pretty full in terms of the passenger LF (from a source I won't disclose), no reason why FCO can't end in mid-November, I still think December, January and February are fairly slow months. The route will be returning March 25th next year. I also agree with you on SJC, but I think there's room for another try on SMF too. YVR went to 2x weekly this summer and those flights were full, it would be interesting to see it go daily if it does, there's definitely a market so you can't say YVR isn't served, but rather underserved.
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KDTWflyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:36 am

I'd love to see PTK in the northern suburbs get regularly scheduled passenger service. Delta already flies 757s in there for NBA charters and it can its a great location but alas, NIMBYs would probably not be down with it. If that will never happen that I'd like to see at a minimum FNT-DTW be restored to service because that was such a great connection option to DTW. Anybody in the northern burbs i.e. Clarkston, Lake Orion, Oxford, Rochester Hills, Oakland Twp, Wateford etc. can attest to FNT being much more convenient to fly out of.
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:27 pm

That’s good for FCO! Didn’t it start around mid April this year? I feel like every year it gets earlier and earlier. In 2015 it was May 1st when service resumed. Also, they use the A330-300 for the route when a few years ago it was a 767-300 l believe.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
[In 2018 you should start to see demolition of the Smith & Berry terminals which will lead eventually to the 4 additional gates on the North Terminal. This is for 3 narrowbody gates on the north end, and 1 additional widebody/FIS capable gates on the South end. Plus will lead to a whole bunch more RON/hardstand positions, and improved deicing facilities.


I believe it was four gates but reduced to three after they decided to make one widebody capable. I'm too lazy to look it up but the master plan repeatedly mentions that 29-gates will be more than sufficient to handle the airport's needs for the next 20+ years. Pretty amazing when you consider all the changes over the past 20 years (multiple expansions of the Davey Terminal, construction of Midfield, expansion of Midfield, construction of North, expansion of North, etc.)!!!

KDTWflyer wrote:
I'd love to see PTK in the northern suburbs get regularly scheduled passenger service. Delta already flies 757s in there for NBA charters and it can its a great location but alas, NIMBYs would probably not be down with it. If that will never happen that I'd like to see at a minimum FNT-DTW be restored to service because that was such a great connection option to DTW. Anybody in the northern burbs i.e. Clarkston, Lake Orion, Oxford, Rochester Hills, Oakland Twp, Wateford etc. can attest to FNT being much more convenient to fly out of.


PTK is horribly located in relative to the population center (unless you live in Waterford or Highland) and business district of Oakland County. Consider that if you live in Clarkston, PTK is a few minutes closer than FNT... unless you're traveling in rush hour traffic, then FNT is closer due to heavier congestion on M-59. And if PTK was serviced 3x a day, guess which times those would be? :) From the Auburn Hills bsuiness district, it's 25 minutes to PTK, 35 to FNT and 45 to DTW... just not much of an advantage (during rush hour, it's faster to FNT).

I live in Oakland Township and as I've gotten older, I've stopped traveling from FNT. Is it more convenient? Yes, but that convenience is lost when you make a connection... especially if that connection is hampered by congestion at ORD or weather at ATL, etc. Same problem would arise at PTK. And I've actually done a handful of flights from PTK over the years and don't see an advantage.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:43 pm

DL has an A321 scheduled on DTW-MCO on Christmas Day and New Years Day, as well as a ton of the FLL flights during the holiday season. I don't know about y'all but I think next year DL will probably deploy the A321 on some Florida routes as a permanent thing aside from your here an there MCO, TPA and FLL and a 2 month winter schedule to RSW.
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