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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

No, because airlines' network hub model in this country is turning into herding of passengers.


No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.


No one is asking for the same number of options. Every airport should get their fair share.

Eg, You cannot force most Detroit-India passengers through Chicago, New York or Boston and claim those cities have better "numbers".

Same with entire southern seaboard, everyone has to go through one huge hub. This will work until LH-LCCs start nibbling away feeder traffic.

"Everyone should have their fair share".
If everyone has their fair share, that requires right-sized nonstops between every city pair on the planet. Good luck feeling anything bigger than a Gulfstream on IND-GUM.
Now if we apply it less radically, you imply that all hubs should link to all spokes. That's got two implications:
1. Bye-bye, A350!
2. All airlines go bankrupt
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:44 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
...DTW doesnt have those options because its no where near the size of those markets.


No, because airlines' network hub model in this country is turning into herding of passengers.


No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.



No I never said that I understand that ORD os 3 times bigger but they have AI, EK,QR AND EK don't you think that Detroit warrants at least one of these options. ORD has FI,WW AND DY and Detroit has WW I'm cool with that by no means do I think DTW can support the service ORD has but I can support more than what it currently has.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:46 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
What hub are the people flying to who are flying on the Delta flight and again I state before FI was flying this there was no MSP-KEF market but over the years the route was made viable so viable that Delta jumped in on it.


DL jumped on this route because FI announced it. Simple as that. They NEVER would have flown KEF-MSP otherwise. You're exhausting.


Exactly there was no real market got MSP-KEF but Delta and FI created one by adding that flight same logic can be used for DTW-WAW . Everyone forget about the on ward connections from WAW to eastern Europe and Russia which it could carry out of Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:53 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.


No one is asking for the same number of options. Every airport should get their fair share.

Eg, You cannot force most Detroit-India passengers through Chicago, New York or Boston and claim those cities have better "numbers".

Same with entire southern seaboard, everyone has to go through one huge hub. This will work until LH-LCCs start nibbling away feeder traffic.


Nobody is forcing those people through those airports. You have LH, AF, DL, UA, AC, and DL/VS. Its not as if DTW is CLE or IND.



Yes they are due to price when you can fly out of ORD for $300 less and you have a family of 4 or 5 that is forcing someone to take to the road to make their trip economical. Unlike the USA and Europe most of the rest of the world is pretty price sensitive
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

No one is asking for the same number of options. Every airport should get their fair share.

Eg, You cannot force most Detroit-India passengers through Chicago, New York or Boston and claim those cities have better "numbers".

Same with entire southern seaboard, everyone has to go through one huge hub. This will work until LH-LCCs start nibbling away feeder traffic.


Nobody is forcing those people through those airports. You have LH, AF, DL, UA, AC, and DL/VS. Its not as if DTW is CLE or IND.



Yes they are due to price when you can fly out of ORD for $300 less and you have a family of 4 or 5 that is forcing someone to take to the road to make their trip economical. Unlike the USA and Europe most of the rest of the world is pretty price sensitive


Im not sure if you realize but you are arguing for re-regulation. You think you are entitled to the same fare as someone in another market. Overall, youre actually arguing that everyone, everywhere should be entitled to the same fare.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:02 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

In your post history, you seem to be advocating for re-regulation. Is this the case?


Now I don't advocate re-regulation although I think that's where we are now but rather than the government regulating routes and fares the airlines are doing that themselves at the moment. I don't believe that one carrier should be so big in a given market that they effectively eliminate all competition like many have said here as to why airlines do not enter Detroit because they don't want to go up against Delta and that's where I have the problem. I also believe that the airport is running interference for Delta by not aggressively but passively going after new entrants in the Detroit. They blew the QR deal but not be aggresive enouggh in landing those flights in Detroit when QR said repeatably they are adding Detroit. Some would say that QR never intended to add Detroit and that may be true but the airport should have pushed the envelope with them so they would either put up or shut upp but I don't think the airport really wanted QR here in the first place. No fast forward to now EI has stated they are bring on A321s to fly to cities that are within range Detroit surely being on of them let see what the WCAA does with this and if they fail this market again because EI is targeting beyond traffic from DUB and since DTW is not well connected to England without back tracking from AMS and the amount of traffic it could attract from southern Ontario going to England lets see if the airport blows this opportunity too as they have blown the opportunity to attract ME3 carrier as that window is now closed because of all the unrest in that region.


I cannot tell if youre severely overestimating the importance of the Detroit market, a conspiracy theorist, or you have some sort of grudge against the WCAA. The WCAA wants every carrier it can get, but DTW wont support most of them. Unless its an airport like JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, or IAD, airlines will not blindly enter a market. Even MIA has been on its hands and knees for years begging for a flight to Asia and theyve come up empty handed thus far. Its not because the airport authority in Miami is incompetent or playing payola with AA, its because the market cant support it yet.

Also, the hub and spoke model is a double edged sword. Detroit would not have near the amount of service it has now without Delta. Yes they make the fares higher when they have a market that is very loyal to them, but they are the ones providing the service so they get to decide what to charge.


I get that part but if someone wants to add Detroit they can run them out of the market. That's not how the free market works that's price fixing and creating a monopoly. I'll give you if Delta wants to operated DTW-PLN when no one else does OK but as soon as a competitor comes on it's unfair to dump capacity and run them out of the market. NO the WCAA doesn't want every airline it can get in this market they want to protect Delta and it's margins first and foremost. If an addition in the Detroit market aligns with Delta foals then yes they want them here but otherwise they run interference for Delta. Do you really think the airport cared when they lost BA service no because it had a positive effect on it's largest tenant and that right there is why BA will never serve Detroit again. It's not a conspiracy theory it's just the nature of politics in this day and age.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:04 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

No, because airlines' network hub model in this country is turning into herding of passengers.


No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.


No one is asking for the same number of options. Every airport should get their fair share.

Eg, You cannot force most Detroit-India passengers through Chicago, New York or Boston and claim those cities have better "numbers".

Same with entire southern seaboard, everyone has to go through one huge hub. This will work until LH-LCCs start nibbling away feeder traffic.



CORRECT !!!!!
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
SESGDL
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:42 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
What hub are the people flying to who are flying on the Delta flight and again I state before FI was flying this there was no MSP-KEF market but over the years the route was made viable so viable that Delta jumped in on it.


DL jumped on this route because FI announced it. Simple as that. They NEVER would have flown KEF-MSP otherwise. You're exhausting.


FI flew MSP-KEF years before DL started it.

Jeremy
 
SESGDL
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.


No one is asking for the same number of options. Every airport should get their fair share.

Eg, You cannot force most Detroit-India passengers through Chicago, New York or Boston and claim those cities have better "numbers".

Same with entire southern seaboard, everyone has to go through one huge hub. This will work until LH-LCCs start nibbling away feeder traffic.



CORRECT !!!!!


DTW gets more than its fair share. Without DL’s hub no way would DTW have anywhere near the amount of service it receives.

Jeremy
 
klakzky123
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:12 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
What hub are the people flying to who are flying on the Delta flight and again I state before FI was flying this there was no MSP-KEF market but over the years the route was made viable so viable that Delta jumped in on it.


DL jumped on this route because FI announced it. Simple as that. They NEVER would have flown KEF-MSP otherwise. You're exhausting.


Icelandair has been flying from MSP since the late 90s. Northwest and Delta ignored them for close to two decades.
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The other thing to consider with some of the ethnic travel is that people sometimes want to combine a stop-over in other cities to visit.

I know its anidotal but here are some personal examples:

Family friends like in Northern Oakland County, with many relatives still living in India. When they come to visit they fly Air India to ORD and tend to spend a day or day sight-seeing in Chicago before coming over to Michigan. They stay in the US 2-3 weeks at a time and the family from Michigan drives them to and from Chicago when they come to visit.

Another family with Indian relatives, they typically fly into NYC spend a few days there and then book a round-trip domestic ticket on DTW-NYC to come visit family here.

A guy I work with here takes the Amtrak to Chicago to fly home to India to visit family.

Guys I work with that come over from India 2-3 tmes a year tend to fly AA & QR through either MIA or DFW.

The only ones I know that are flying DL, AF, LH through AMS, CDG, FRA are people from here going to India for business.

Granted this is ofthe people I know that travel to/from India, which isn't a very big sample size.


Yes and they are doing this because of better fares and options at ORD and NYC. If DTW gad comparable service or options the wouldn't be doing what they do but because they are going to Chicago and New York anyone they add the side trips on you have it kind of revered.


How do you know that? Do you have any data to back this point up? Does DTW really have the draw to profitably bring in a 77W, 77L, or 789? Even if DTW could do that, would it likely be able to generate the competition required to get better rates?

Here's the other thing - NYC and Chicago are world-renown cities. If I'm coming to America to visit family, and I only have 2-3 weeks for my trip, I'd want to spend some time visiting one of those two cities.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Now I don't advocate re-regulation although I think that's where we are now but rather than the government regulating routes and fares the airlines are doing that themselves at the moment. I don't believe that one carrier should be so big in a given market that they effectively eliminate all competition like many have said here as to why airlines do not enter Detroit because they don't want to go up against Delta and that's where I have the problem. I also believe that the airport is running interference for Delta by not aggressively but passively going after new entrants in the Detroit. They blew the QR deal but not be aggresive enouggh in landing those flights in Detroit when QR said repeatably they are adding Detroit. Some would say that QR never intended to add Detroit and that may be true but the airport should have pushed the envelope with them so they would either put up or shut upp but I don't think the airport really wanted QR here in the first place. No fast forward to now EI has stated they are bring on A321s to fly to cities that are within range Detroit surely being on of them let see what the WCAA does with this and if they fail this market again because EI is targeting beyond traffic from DUB and since DTW is not well connected to England without back tracking from AMS and the amount of traffic it could attract from southern Ontario going to England lets see if the airport blows this opportunity too as they have blown the opportunity to attract ME3 carrier as that window is now closed because of all the unrest in that region.


I cannot tell if youre severely overestimating the importance of the Detroit market, a conspiracy theorist, or you have some sort of grudge against the WCAA. The WCAA wants every carrier it can get, but DTW wont support most of them. Unless its an airport like JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, or IAD, airlines will not blindly enter a market. Even MIA has been on its hands and knees for years begging for a flight to Asia and theyve come up empty handed thus far. Its not because the airport authority in Miami is incompetent or playing payola with AA, its because the market cant support it yet.

Also, the hub and spoke model is a double edged sword. Detroit would not have near the amount of service it has now without Delta. Yes they make the fares higher when they have a market that is very loyal to them, but they are the ones providing the service so they get to decide what to charge.


I get that part but if someone wants to add Detroit they can run them out of the market. That's not how the free market works that's price fixing and creating a monopoly. I'll give you if Delta wants to operated DTW-PLN when no one else does OK but as soon as a competitor comes on it's unfair to dump capacity and run them out of the market. NO the WCAA doesn't want every airline it can get in this market they want to protect Delta and it's margins first and foremost. If an addition in the Detroit market aligns with Delta foals then yes they want them here but otherwise they run interference for Delta. Do you really think the airport cared when they lost BA service no because it had a positive effect on it's largest tenant and that right there is why BA will never serve Detroit again. It's not a conspiracy theory it's just the nature of politics in this day and age.


BA served Detroit because Northwest wasn't allowed to fly to LHR. Bermuda II restrictions in combination with BA's slot portfolio gave it limitless opportunities to serve cities that really had no other options. If the US-EU Open Skies agreement were in effect in place of Bermuda II, NW would be the one flying direct to LHR just like DL is today. When it comes to LHR, citing anything before the US-EU Open Skies makes little sense. The market was regulated so differently that it simply isn't possible to compare it to today. And if you have to consider the fact that the JV with VS gives DL access to a solid base for UK point of sale. That makes it even harder to justify launching service to what is currently a DL fortress hub.

Plus BA is busy targeting new markets in the US that lack a direct flight to LHR. Why would they try and pick a fight with Delta and Virgin Atlantic when they could continue to launch in new places (Denver, Austin, Nashville, New Orleans, etc..)?
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:

If flights were allowed between the USA and Iraq you can bet your life somebody would be flying it same with BEY-DTW.

BEY-DTW, I could see that. But if flights were allowed from everywhere to everywhere, I think Iraqi airlines would flock to JFK first.



You do know that Iraqi Airways applied to fly DTW-BGW and even had an office in Southfield.

Huh. I did not know that. But Iraqi Airways is subsidized and the flight would fail without Iraqi gov money...
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

No, because airlines' network hub model in this country is turning into herding of passengers.


No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.



No I never said that I understand that ORD os 3 times bigger but they have AI, EK,QR AND EK don't you think that Detroit warrants at least one of these options. ORD has FI,WW AND DY and Detroit has WW I'm cool with that by no means do I think DTW can support the service ORD has but I can support more than what it currently has.

If it werent for Jet Airways focusing on 1-stops, I would have said 9W would be a better fit to DTW than AI, EY, EK or QR. A DTW-BOM flight would be only slightly longer than YYZ-BOM (which is operated on AC) AND shorter than ATL-BOM. But again, if 9W cant make EWR work....
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:42 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Every airport should get their fair share.

Sorry, that's not how successful businesses work.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No...its because Detroit is 1/3 the size of a market like Chicago. You cannot tell me with a straight face that somehow Detroit should have the same number of options.



No I never said that I understand that ORD os 3 times bigger but they have AI, EK,QR AND EK don't you think that Detroit warrants at least one of these options. ORD has FI,WW AND DY and Detroit has WW I'm cool with that by no means do I think DTW can support the service ORD has but I can support more than what it currently has.

If it werent for Jet Airways focusing on 1-stops, I would have said 9W would be a better fit to DTW than AI, EY, EK or QR. A DTW-BOM flight would be only slightly longer than YYZ-BOM (which is operated on AC) AND shorter than ATL-BOM. But again, if 9W cant make EWR work....



Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
[

Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.
So what? Jet Airways isn't in Skyteam. They have codeshares but that's it.


Which means they can route passengers onward from DTW they had no code share at EWR
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
[

Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.
So what? Jet Airways isn't in Skyteam. They have codeshares but that's it.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:12 pm

klm617 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
[

Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.
So what? Jet Airways isn't in Skyteam. They have codeshares but that's it.


Which means they can route passengers onward from DTW they had no code share at EWR


EWR along with YYZ are the largest markets to India from North America. They have so many options because its so big. EWR-India is over 1,000 PDEW.

DTW-India on the other hand is around 150 PDEW. Tell me why an airline should fly directly from DTW to India especially since DTW is no where near the largest unserved market as far as India is concerned. DFW, ATL, SEA, IAH, LAX, and BOS to India are all far larger and they have no non stop service to India.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So what? Jet Airways isn't in Skyteam. They have codeshares but that's it.


Which means they can route passengers onward from DTW they had no code share at EWR


EWR along with YYZ are the largest markets to India from North America. They have so many options because its so big. EWR-India is over 1,000 PDEW.

DTW-India on the other hand is around 150 PDEW. Tell me why an airline should fly directly from DTW to India especially since DTW is no where near the largest unserved market as far as India is concerned. DFW, ATL, SEA, IAH, LAX, and BOS to India are all far larger and they have no non stop service to India.


Again you are quoting numbers where the passenger gets on the plane at DTW and gets off in India that doesn't include the road traffic to YYZ and ORD bring a flight here and then we can talk about the real numbers in the Detroit India market. All those cities you mentioned already have an ME3 connection to cater to that market Detroit does not. There is NO economical service from Detroit to India only high priced skyteam and Lufthansa. The true number is NOT 150 a day.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:03 am

klm617 wrote:
Again you are quoting numbers where the passenger gets on the plane at DTW and gets off in India that doesn't include the road traffic to YYZ and ORD bring a flight here and then we can talk about the real numbers in the Detroit India market. The true number is NOT 150 a day.
What is the true number then? Actual published statistics, not your opinion or fantasy.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:55 am

klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:


No I never said that I understand that ORD os 3 times bigger but they have AI, EK,QR AND EK don't you think that Detroit warrants at least one of these options. ORD has FI,WW AND DY and Detroit has WW I'm cool with that by no means do I think DTW can support the service ORD has but I can support more than what it currently has.

If it werent for Jet Airways focusing on 1-stops, I would have said 9W would be a better fit to DTW than AI, EY, EK or QR. A DTW-BOM flight would be only slightly longer than YYZ-BOM (which is operated on AC) AND shorter than ATL-BOM. But again, if 9W cant make EWR work....



Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.

9W used to partner with UA though. I dont see your point
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Which means they can route passengers onward from DTW they had no code share at EWR


EWR along with YYZ are the largest markets to India from North America. They have so many options because its so big. EWR-India is over 1,000 PDEW.

DTW-India on the other hand is around 150 PDEW. Tell me why an airline should fly directly from DTW to India especially since DTW is no where near the largest unserved market as far as India is concerned. DFW, ATL, SEA, IAH, LAX, and BOS to India are all far larger and they have no non stop service to India.


Again you are quoting numbers where the passenger gets on the plane at DTW and gets off in India that doesn't include the road traffic to YYZ and ORD bring a flight here and then we can talk about the real numbers in the Detroit India market. All those cities you mentioned already have an ME3 connection to cater to that market Detroit does not. There is NO economical service from Detroit to India only high priced skyteam and Lufthansa. The true number is NOT 150 a day.


It might be 200 a day but that’s being generous. At most your market bleed may be 25%
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:01 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
If it werent for Jet Airways focusing on 1-stops, I would have said 9W would be a better fit to DTW than AI, EY, EK or QR. A DTW-BOM flight would be only slightly longer than YYZ-BOM (which is operated on AC) AND shorter than ATL-BOM. But again, if 9W cant make EWR work....



Yes but Detroit is a major skyteam hub EWR provided 9W passengers with zero on ward connections.

9W used to partner with UA though. I dont see your point


9W failed not because of a lack of connections on the US side at EWR - they partnered with UA so they couldve codeshared at EWR - but rather, 9W failed because of AI and UA flying EWR-BOM nonstop while 9W went to BOM via BRU.
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 pm

johns624 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Every airport should get their fair share.

Sorry, that's not how successful businesses work.


Was it that hard to accept the reality, rather than throwing some meaningless stats from a bygone era of paper tickets, handwritten BPs.

The consolidation at a hub makes it cheaper for a frame crew combination. The hub with that frame type gets first preference.

There may be 200 DTW-India passengers going through, ORD, JFK, BOS or even DFW daily, airlines can still prove there is no market. If there is market yields are not good, If yields are good there is no premium traffic.

An endless list of excuses.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:46 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Every airport should get their fair share.

Sorry, that's not how successful businesses work.


Was it that hard to accept the reality, rather than throwing some meaningless stats from a bygone era of paper tickets, handwritten BPs.

The consolidation at a hub makes it cheaper for a frame crew combination. The hub with that frame type gets first preference.

There may be 200 DTW-India passengers going through, ORD, JFK, BOS or even DFW daily, airlines can still prove there is no market. If there is market yields are not good, If yields are good there is no premium traffic.

An endless list of excuses.
That seems to be the largest issue with others is that when the possibility of having something, like a nonstop flight to India or one-stop via DXB than it turns into, “well this airport doesn’t have it so they’ll get it first” but when yields are crap at those airports and there’s a potential for opportunity at DTW, it’s something that can potentially happen. Don’t forget the market keeps growing and I’d like to make KEF as the notable route, the market has doubled in the last year alone and I think WOW is going to really stimulate a KEF market, not to the likes of MSP though.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:42 pm

With DL announcing JFK-SJC I now doubt they’ll add DTW, I was hoping that DTW could get east coast connections and through to SJC but JFK seems to have that covered with their new JFK flight. I also doubt AS will add it and WN will without a doubt not add it, so SJC plans for 2018 should focus for 2019. OTOH SMF could happen....
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:48 pm

I know it's a ways away but going through DL's June schedule it's showing interesting stuff.

Here's some notable increases:
HPN going from 3x CRJ to 2x CM9, 1x CG7
JFK from 3x CM9, 1x 717 to 3x 717 1x CM9
CLE is going from 4x all CR9's to 5x (2x 717, 3x CR9)
PVD, BDL, RDU, CLT are going completely mainline
BNA will get 2 73H's on top of 4 717's
MSY going from 1x CM9 2x 717 to 3x M90
AUS from 3x 319 to 2x 319 1x 73H
SAT from 1x 717 2x CM9 to 3x 717
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:28 pm

Finally, some increases. Hopefully some of the smaller regional routes will stop seeing cuts, so many cuts hurts can hurt connection loads.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:50 am

flymco753 wrote:
I know it's a ways away but going through DL's June schedule it's showing interesting stuff.

Here's some notable increases:
HPN going from 3x CRJ to 2x CM9, 1x CG7
JFK from 3x CM9, 1x 717 to 3x 717 1x CM9
CLE is going from 4x all CR9's to 5x (2x 717, 3x CR9)
PVD, BDL, RDU, CLT are going completely mainline
BNA will get 2 73H's on top of 4 717's
MSY going from 1x CM9 2x 717 to 3x M90
AUS from 3x 319 to 2x 319 1x 73H
SAT from 1x 717 2x CM9 to 3x 717


Thanks for a great analysis.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:51 am

BenflysDTW wrote:
Finally, some increases. Hopefully some of the smaller regional routes will stop seeing cuts, so many cuts hurts can hurt connection loads.
If they can handle it. ICT and ROA are two airports in particular that are shooting for daily RJ service to DTW which would of course be welcoming additions. COS also has published they’d like to fly to DTW but I don’t think DL will do it, it’d have to be F9.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:08 am

11725Flyer wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I know it's a ways away but going through DL's June schedule it's showing interesting stuff.

Here's some notable increases:
HPN going from 3x CRJ to 2x CM9, 1x CG7
JFK from 3x CM9, 1x 717 to 3x 717 1x CM9
CLE is going from 4x all CR9's to 5x (2x 717, 3x CR9)
PVD, BDL, RDU, CLT are going completely mainline
BNA will get 2 73H's on top of 4 717's
MSY going from 1x CM9 2x 717 to 3x M90
AUS from 3x 319 to 2x 319 1x 73H
SAT from 1x 717 2x CM9 to 3x 717


Thanks for a great analysis.
Some of my poorest analyzing actually, I could’ve listed a lot more than that lol.
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hjulicher
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:26 pm

Just for the record... Lufthansa will serve DTW with a higher density A330 until March 4, 2018. The aircraft configuration is 42C28Y185M. There will be no extra section for the NAIAS in 2018. (most likely as Frankfurt held the IAA this year).

As of March 5, 2018, LH will serve DTW with the 747, so it will switch even before the roll-out of the Summer flight plan.
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john7165
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:40 pm

Former Detroit Metro Airports CEO Jerry Nardone has been selected as the new CEO for Columbus (CMH). Does anyone have any thoughts on the job Nardone did while in Detroit? Why would someone leave one of the largest airports in the country to take over an airport considerable smaller?
 
Capn
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:47 pm

flymco753 wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I know it's a ways away but going through DL's June schedule it's showing interesting stuff.

Here's some notable increases:
HPN going from 3x CRJ to 2x CM9, 1x CG7
JFK from 3x CM9, 1x 717 to 3x 717 1x CM9
CLE is going from 4x all CR9's to 5x (2x 717, 3x CR9)
PVD, BDL, RDU, CLT are going completely mainline
BNA will get 2 73H's on top of 4 717's
MSY going from 1x CM9 2x 717 to 3x M90
AUS from 3x 319 to 2x 319 1x 73H
SAT from 1x 717 2x CM9 to 3x 717


Thanks for a great analysis.
Some of my poorest analyzing actually, I could’ve listed a lot more than that lol.

Would like to see you complete your analysis.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:46 pm

john7165 wrote:
Former Detroit Metro Airports CEO Jerry Nardone has been selected as the new CEO for Columbus (CMH). Does anyone have any thoughts on the job Nardone did while in Detroit? Why would someone leave one of the largest airports in the country to take over an airport considerable smaller?


More $$$ and the opportunity to lead development of CMH’s new terminal.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:57 pm

hjulicher wrote:
Just for the record... Lufthansa will serve DTW with a higher density A330 until March 4, 2018. The aircraft configuration is 42C28Y185M. There will be no extra section for the NAIAS in 2018. (most likely as Frankfurt held the IAA this year).

As of March 5, 2018, LH will serve DTW with the 747, so it will switch even before the roll-out of the Summer flight plan.
Impressive, I think in terms of business and local demand, FRA by far is the strongest European route DTW has.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:36 pm

Capn wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:

Thanks for a great analysis.
Some of my poorest analyzing actually, I could’ve listed a lot more than that lol.

Would like to see you complete your analysis.
HPN going from 3x CRJ to 2x CM9, 1x CG7, so essentially going from all single class RJ's to dual class is a big step because some routes like HSV or GSO of further distances both still only have single class RJ's, it shows DL's commitment to connecting HPN travelers through DTW. Not just HPN though, but the whole North East. PVD, BDL, ALB, SYR, ROC and to an extend ELM seeing increased service shows the commitment DL is making to connecting those passengers in Detroit as opposed to ATL or MSP when going west.

JFK from 3x CM9, 1x 717 to 3x 717 1x CM9 is also huge because for a while now, the route has barely seen mainline at times, to go mostly mainline, I think it's more or less showing DL's dedication to JFK. Not only that but B6 has great potential to serve this route so I'm sure DL is trying to prevent that.

CLE is going from 4x all CR9's to 5x (2x 717, 3x CR9) I find this significant because CLE as of a year ago had 4 flights during peak travel with no mainline. DL wants to get people from CLE to go through DTW because why not spend less time in the air if you're heading east or west?

BNA will get 2 73H's on top of 4 717's. BNA has seen as many as 2 of 6 flights in a dual class RJ, but going all mainline and tacking 2 73H's on it not only shows that DL is committed to getting people to transfer at DTW but it reflects the recent growth in service. WN will also be serving BNA with 2x daily 73H's so overall there's just a lot more capacity going to BNA, I think NK will jump in eventually.

MSY going from 1x CM9 2x 717 to 3x M90. The M90 is slightly smaller than the 739, and at 3x daily with no RJ's is probably just natural growth in terms of RJ-mainline with the drawdown in single class RJ's.

AUS from 3x 319 to 2x 319 1x 73H. Last year it was 3x 319, so this year they added a few more seats, but it again reflects the growth between city pairs so the need to use RJ's or 175's isn't needed.

SAT from 1x 717 2x CM9 to 3x 717. You take 2 RJ's away and replace them with mainline aircraft. Again I think this is just DL naturally growing with the drawdown in single class RJ's, I think it has to do little with local growth.

Going to 3x 321 on SAN as opposed to 3x 739/H is overall growth in seats, and may have somewhat something to do with market growth, but overall there's more seats. Same with LAX adding a 7th flight, more seats and increased market growth. PHX will even see more seats this summer, the 321 is only slightly smaller on the 757, something DL doesn't run from DTW-PHX in the summer.
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Capn
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:45 pm

Thank you flymco753,great work, hope you keep digging and keep your dream to be in Network planning. Its great to get paid for doing your passion.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:21 pm

Very cool stuff flymco753. Love all the detail. Is anyone going on Sunday for the last DL 747 scheduled departure? I’m also going on Tuesday next week for the last arrival. Does anybody on here know Delta’s 747 flight path for the farewell tour coming up?
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:33 pm

More Detroit cuts this week by your hub airline Delta while it continues to pile on in Atlanta.

DL DTW-FLL APR 6>5 MAY 5>4 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
DL DTW-ORD APR 8>7 MAY 8>7 JUN 8>7
DL DTW-PDX APR 1.4>1.0
DL DTW-TPA APR 6>4
DL LAX-DTW APR 7>6 MAY 7>6
AM DTW-MEX FEB 0.9>0.7 MAR 0.8>0.7 APR 1.0>0.7 MAY 1.0>0.7
DL ATL-DEN JUL 9>10
DL ATL-SFO JUN 8>9 JUL 9>10
DL SEA-ATL JUN 8>9 JUL 9>10
DL SLC-ATL JUL 9>10
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:31 pm

D8 is announcing new TATL flights with the 737 MAX DTW-DUB is well within range at 3488 lets keep our fingers crossed.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:58 pm

DY/D8 probably has 0 intentions of doing DTW at this time.

Yes there are cuts but DTW-FLL went all 757, DTW-TPA went all 739, DTW-ORD lost an RJ and gained a 717, PDX is going to happen, simply put it this way, AS is probably doing well during that time. AM’s MEX is a missedfile, and LAX lost a 739 and gained a 753, I don’t see much loss.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:07 am

klm617 wrote:
More Detroit cuts this week by your hub airline Delta while it continues to pile on in Atlanta.

DL DTW-FLL APR 6>5 MAY 5>4 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4


No change in capacity -- last summer, the route operated as 5xM90, next summer it's planned as 4x757. Less frequency, but the same number of seats. The 757 makes more sense, given South Florida is about the cheapest place you can fly from DTW this summer on a legacy carrier -- for example, DL's selling tickets from $89 or 7,500 miles, including most Saturday morning departures.

DL DTW-ORD APR 8>7 MAY 8>7 JUN 8>7


From 4xCR9, 717, 319, 2xM90 to 4xCR9, 3x717. Obviously a significant capacity cut but let's consider:
(a) Spring load factors were in the mid-60s on mainline and low 70s overall, making it one of the weakest routes by LF from DTW.
(b) DL cut the 10PM DTW-ORD departure -- this is one of my most traveled flights (probably a couple hundred flights over the past 15 years or so) and while it was convenient for me, I've long pondered how the flight survived -- whether it was operated by a CRJ or 757, my flights rarely had more than a handful of people (there were a whopping four people on my flight in May, and in spite of that, the FA still couldn't be bothered to perform a beverage service... but that's another thread).
(c) WN slashed its lowest fare in the market by half earlier this year, and that price reduction looks like it's going to stick.
(d) Most likely, eventually, the equipment will be adjusted, lessening the capacity hit.

DL DTW-PDX APR 1.4>1.0


DTW/PDX has operated as 1x daily (usually seasonal, and often excluding Saturdays) since circa 2008 with varying equipment. No change here. The additional flight was added as a result of AS's entry into the market, but both DL & AS have scaled back their plans. No argument from me that the market is underserved, but NK begins service in late April, filling in the void.

Regardless... not a change.

DL DTW-TPA APR 6>4


This past April, it operated as 2xM88, 739, 2x757, next April it's scheduled as 4x739. Yes, big capacity drop, but advanced bookings were likely poor -- April traffic is driven by grade school spring break and snow bird movement, many of whom would've secured their travel plans by now.

DL LAX-DTW APR 7>6 MAY 7>6


Appears to be an error, it's still scheduled as 7x, which is a significant capacity increase from this year (when it operated as 6x).

AM DTW-MEX FEB 0.9>0.7 MAR 0.8>0.7 APR 1.0>0.7


All new service is going to have teething issues. On the flip side, AM is committed to MTY.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:28 am

I wonder if today's cluster at ATL will lead to a rethink of capacity distribution between ATL and the three other trunk hubs at DTW/MSP/SLC. I've thought for awhile that a 1030 flight daily hub at ATL is....pushing it, especially with a lot of aging infrastructure at Hartsfield. ATL at something like 850 daily with modest increases at DTW, MSP, and SLC might be a wise long term operational decision. Think cutting a JAX-ATL and moving it to JAX- DTW, restarting service DTW-CHO/CRW/ROA/CAE/PNS; CVG-PIT/MSY/AUS. Fleshing out existing banks, adding some new spokes, upgauging certain departures,etc. Nothing earth shaking, just redundancy.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:32 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
I wonder if today's cluster at ATL will lead to a rethink of capacity distribution between ATL and the three other trunk hubs at DTW/MSP/SLC. I've thought for awhile that a 1030 flight daily hub at ATL is....pushing it, especially with a lot of aging infrastructure at Hartsfield. ATL at something like 850 daily with modest increases at DTW, MSP, and SLC might be a wise long term operational decision. Think cutting a JAX-ATL and moving it to JAX- DTW, restarting service DTW-CHO/CRW/ROA/CAE/PNS; CVG-PIT/MSY/AUS. Fleshing out existing banks, adding some new spokes, upgauging certain departures,etc. Nothing earth shaking, just redundancy.
DL opening a flow to South America through MCO is a good start because Asia is covered by both DTW and SEA whereas JFK and to an extend BOS covers TPAC. I think when everything is set in stone, MCO will be a good reliever for ATL in case of IROPs.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:34 pm

Looking through the Traffic Report for October, and doing some analyzing, DTW should be up almost or just over 1M again for 2017, with WOW flying to DTW next summer it'd be safe to say there's a possibility of a 2M increase for 2018.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:17 pm

I took a quick look at the numbers, and I see 2017 YTD through Oct, total passengers are up 276 K / 1%. over 2016 Jan-Oct. Oct 2017 was up 3.4% but that offsets other months earlier in the year that were less than 2016's totals.

Highly doubt they get 1 M more total passengers from 2016, that would require a pretty significant YOY comp in Nov & Dec. That would be close to 3% annual growth in total passengers but DTW is on-track for about a 1% growth through October in total passengers for 2017 over 2016.

WOW isn't going to drastically raise the numbers that much. At best, they would add an incremental ~56K total passengers in 2018 (0.16%) growth.
Its no more significant of an impact to total passenger count than for example NK adding an incremental MCO flight or DL an incremental A321 to SAN.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:37 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I took a quick look at the numbers, and I see 2017 YTD through Oct, total passengers are up 276 K / 1%. over 2016 Jan-Oct. Oct 2017 was up 3.4% but that offsets other months earlier in the year that were less than 2016's totals.

Highly doubt they get 1 M more total passengers from 2016, that would require a pretty significant YOY comp in Nov & Dec. That would be close to 3% annual growth in total passengers but DTW is on-track for about a 1% growth through October in total passengers for 2017 over 2016.

WOW isn't going to drastically raise the numbers that much. At best, they would add an incremental ~56K total passengers in 2018 (0.16%) growth.
Its no more significant of an impact to total passenger count than for example NK adding an incremental MCO flight or DL an incremental A321 to SAN.



1% growth is nothing compared to the overall growth in air travel this year. I'd say those are embarrassing results for an airport that is the 2nd biggest hub for one of the US3. Hopefully the WCAA will do a better job in 2018 at getting people to use DTW rather than driving to ORD or YYZ for their international travel.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:44 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I took a quick look at the numbers, and I see 2017 YTD through Oct, total passengers are up 276 K / 1%. over 2016 Jan-Oct. Oct 2017 was up 3.4% but that offsets other months earlier in the year that were less than 2016's totals.

Highly doubt they get 1 M more total passengers from 2016, that would require a pretty significant YOY comp in Nov & Dec. That would be close to 3% annual growth in total passengers but DTW is on-track for about a 1% growth through October in total passengers for 2017 over 2016.

WOW isn't going to drastically raise the numbers that much. At best, they would add an incremental ~56K total passengers in 2018 (0.16%) growth.
Its no more significant of an impact to total passenger count than for example NK adding an incremental MCO flight or DL an incremental A321 to SAN.



I think that Spirit at the moment is our only hope for any significant growth in this market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...

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