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dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:00 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
Thank you for replying to my post. The number of questions in it you attempted to answer was exactly... zero

So if you are unable or unwilling to provide a source for your obviously in-depth knowledge of what went on here, here is another question... why do you think the rookie laden, error prone (your words not mine) European ATC system wants to "make an example" of Jet Airways specifically?


Do you have any other official statement to prove 9W official press release is false?

There are much busier air spaces in the world, but why pilots only lose contact over Europe frequently? Do your research and come back to discuss.

If a city, police and court system sets up a speed trap with an ulterior motive, there is not much drivers can do, someone will get hit with the ticket. That city also uses established rules.

Best option for 9W is to go to court and let Europe provide evidence no other plane lost comm for same or longer period. Otherwise it is a trap to train rookie pilots and grab money with a touch of discrimination.
 
User avatar
BartSimpson
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:19 pm

ei146 wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
manny wrote:
Found the pic of the pilot of this JET Airways aircraft:


How does the pic of the pilot add to the discussion - other than making this an online pillory?


manny is kidding, that picture is a joke.


(Hanging my head in shame...)

Honestly, I didn't recognised him until I saw the title of the jpg.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:29 pm

Quote from 9W Statement:
Communication was safely restored within a few minutes. As a precaution, the German Air Force deployed its aircraft to ensure the safety of the flight and its guests.
end of Quote

Now, this is anice, streamlined Bulletin from the Marketing department which does not hold up in real life and certainly not in court. Contact was lost over the Czech Republic already and from there to south of CGN we can esimate that between 40 and 60 minutes there was no contact with the flight. That is a bit more than just a few minutes. Jets are not scrambled for the safetey of the passengers but for the saftey of all, the passengers and those living underneath a flight path. I hope that 9W will be billed for the excercise. If they don't pay, the bailiff can order to impound an aircraft.

.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:

Europe should fix their ATC first rather than using the error prone system to train rookies and charge airlines.


Pardon? Substandard pilots should not be flying around for what, an hour(?) not hearing a thing on the COM1/2/3 and not thinking anything of it. Yes, there are sometimes a lot of frequency changes, which is even MORE of a reason to be even more unforgiving if you manage to fly for so long without getting a handoff. Stop blaming the ATC for well below par airmanship.

I work the airspace of, (and live under) one of the busiest intersections not that far from this "incident" and have 121.5 monitored on my console 24/7/365 and there is not as much chatter as is claimed out by you. I have never heard any sort of rubbish like birthday parties being arranged. Maybe that was your company freq?

Defending incompetence comes at a price.

And it's nothing to do with making an example, it wasn't the only intercept and they usually are not spread far and wide in the media like this.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:44 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:

Europe should fix their ATC first rather than using the error prone system to train rookies and charge airlines.


Pardon? Substandard pilots should not be flying around for what, an hour(?) not hearing a thing on the COM1/2/3 and not thinking anything of it. Yes, there are sometimes a lot of frequency changes, which is even MORE of a reason to be even more unforgiving if you manage to fly for so long without getting a handoff. Stop blaming the ATC for well below par airmanship.

I work the airspace of, (and live under) one of the busiest intersections not that far from this "incident" and have 121.5 monitored on my console 24/7/365 and there is not as much chatter as is claimed out by you. I have never heard any sort of rubbish like birthday parties being arranged. Maybe that was your company freq?

Defending incompetence comes at a price.

And it's nothing to do with making an example, it wasn't the only intercept and they usually are not spread far and wide in the media like this.


To prove these pilots are sub standard, you have to show the rest of the data. How many European pilots lose contact in a year?? Are they intercepted or fined, if not it is selective and discriminatory.

Now slowly time went up to an hour. Do you have official statement from Eurocontrol or Luftwaffe. Or making up as you go.

Courtesy BA pilot this video is clear evidence of how NATO is wasting money on these publicity stunts, proves our leader's theory.

Indians also can claim one of D- regs lost contact, invoice and impound.
 
225623
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:13 pm

Hi dtw2hyd,

we all agree that India
-has the greatest airlines in the world.
-has the best pilots you can find.
-produces the greatest, best selling, most modern and efficient airliners.
-operates the most efficient ATC in existence.
-has the most wonderful and greatest airports.
Anything else in and from any other country can just be inferior. These are the widely accepted true and real facts.
So therefore if anything goes wrong with an Indian airline, airplane or pilot involved, it naturally must be someone elses fault. Someone having any other opinion just clearly shows his prejudice and rasist mindset.

I suggest you try to get an update on what is known about the incident and on what the different sides stated on the occurance. The article on Simon's AVHerald might be a good starting point.

Thank you.
 
Lofty
Posts: 689
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:23 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:34 pm

If you loose contact with a flight, sending fighters up is only one option, you can ask aircraft near them to try their radio or if fitted you can ask the airline to use SATCOM or ACARS. As already said the fighters are used to carry out a visual of the aircraft and to carry out visual communications if radio coms are not working.
I guess the reason the BA crew filmed the incident would be if anything did happen to the aircraft it would assist the investigation to see what happened.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:


Pardon? Substandard pilots should not be flying around for what, an hour(?) not hearing a thing on the COM1/2/3 and not thinking anything of it. Yes, there are sometimes a lot of frequency changes, which is even MORE of a reason to be even more unforgiving if you manage to fly for so long without getting a handoff. Stop blaming the ATC for well below par airmanship.

I work the airspace of, (and live under) one of the busiest intersections not that far from this "incident" and have 121.5 monitored on my console 24/7/365 and there is not as much chatter as is claimed out by you. I have never heard any sort of rubbish like birthday parties being arranged. Maybe that was your company freq?

Defending incompetence comes at a price.

And it's nothing to do with making an example, it wasn't the only intercept and they usually are not spread far and wide in the media like this.


To prove these pilots are sub standard, you have to show the rest of the data. How many European pilots lose contact in a year?? Are they intercepted or fined, if not it is selective and discriminatory.

Now slowly time went up to an hour. Do you have official statement from Eurocontrol or Luftwaffe. Or making up as you go.

Courtesy BA pilot this video is clear evidence of how NATO is wasting money on these publicity stunts, proves our leader's theory.

Indians also can claim one of D- regs lost contact, invoice and impound.


I was guestimating, your highness, hence the question mark. But seeing as I have gotten off my lazy butt, and checked, it is 33 mins. You really think that proficient pilots dial in a wrong frequency, and let it be for so long without either (a) checking in with previous frequency, or (b) after not establishing comms, returning to the previous sector like any normal pilots do.

Not racism, not discrimination, just pee poor airmanship. Cry all you want about discrimination, and wanting more data. This incident proves that THIS CREW were substandard. What more dataset would you like. I never ever said all Jet airways crews are rubbish. If that's what you say I said, I didn't. I have crews of all nationality return to my frequency every day with the simple question, say frequency again. It's not rocket science.
 
225623
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Lofty wrote:
If you loose contact with a flight, sending fighters up is only one option, you can ask aircraft near them to try their radio or if fitted you can ask the airline to use SATCOM or ACARS...


According to The Aviation Herald citing a report from the Czech Air Navigation Services this is exactly what happened.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:49 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:

Pardon? Substandard pilots should not be flying around for what, an hour(?) not hearing a thing on the COM1/2/3 and not thinking anything of it. Yes, there are sometimes a lot of frequency changes, which is even MORE of a reason to be even more unforgiving if you manage to fly for so long without getting a handoff. Stop blaming the ATC for well below par airmanship.

I work the airspace of, (and live under) one of the busiest intersections not that far from this "incident" and have 121.5 monitored on my console 24/7/365 and there is not as much chatter as is claimed out by you. I have never heard any sort of rubbish like birthday parties being arranged. Maybe that was your company freq?

Defending incompetence comes at a price.

And it's nothing to do with making an example, it wasn't the only intercept and they usually are not spread far and wide in the media like this.


To prove these pilots are sub standard, you have to show the rest of the data. How many European pilots lose contact in a year?? Are they intercepted or fined, if not it is selective and discriminatory.

Now slowly time went up to an hour. Do you have official statement from Eurocontrol or Luftwaffe. Or making up as you go.

Courtesy BA pilot this video is clear evidence of how NATO is wasting money on these publicity stunts, proves our leader's theory.

Indians also can claim one of D- regs lost contact, invoice and impound.


I was guestimating, your highness, hence the question mark. But seeing as I have gotten off my lazy butt, and checked, it is 33 mins. You really think that proficient pilots dial in a wrong frequency, and let it be for so long without either (a) checking in with previous frequency, or (b) after not establishing comms, returning to the previous sector like any normal pilots do.

Not racism, not discrimination, just pee poor airmanship. Cry all you want about discrimination, and wanting more data. This incident proves that THIS CREW were substandard. What more dataset would you like. I never ever said all Jet airways crews are rubbish. If that's what you say I said, I didn't. I have crews of all nationality return to my frequency every day with the simple question, say frequency again. It's not rocket science.


Time lapsed between to successful transmission and acknowledgements is 33 minutes. How did you come up with 33 minute loss of comm? There were loss comm incidents involving British, Cathay, EasyJet, Adria and Delta over last year. Are those all sub standard. No, it is just a crappy system built to trap.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1668
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Video: Jet Airways 777 intercepted Above Germany for radio contact loss

Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Not sure where this fallacy comes from about training fighter pilots to run intercepts or to get them hours but it is beyond false.

Firstly, intercepts, especially with GCI/AWACS control are normally just practiced in sim, and are not a part of the day-to-day training syllabus of fighter pilots anymore. That is a one hack B-course type of training. The notion posited above that NORDO is happening to training pilots on intercepts is absurd, and the training would serve no purpose anyway.

Second, BFM, 2V2, DACT, etc could not be practiced this way and those are core fighter competencies. European/NATO pilots fly training missions daily all over Europe, along with American pilots both stationed and TDY there. Huge MOAs exist in the MED, in southern Germany, and other locales to provide this training. NATO AWACS out of GK and the FOBs provide the control in most cases, along with some national GCI. The integrated simulator missions provide easy intercept training, not some inane and feckless conspiracy theory about purposely intercepting pax planes for not needed training.

Thus the posited info about that noted by other posters above is just plain feckless and incorrect.

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