Routesonline has reported that Qatar Airways will be leasing an A359 from LATAM for MUC-DOH on flight QR59/60 eff March 1 2017.

Source:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... -mar-2017/

To me, I never seen an ME Airline ever leasing an Latin American aircraft before, any thoughts why they are leasing LATAM's aircraft?

Lack of their own frames and/or qualified crews?

If I remember correctly, they will be leasing 4 frames from LATAM due to the delay on their own order.
They will be flying to various European destinations, I saw the list somewhere but can't remember the exact destinations. As pointed out MUC is one, and I think MAD as well.

QR has a stake in LATAM, right?

Softaero wrote:

QR has a stake in LATAM, right?

Yes, a 10% of LATAM.

Softaero wrote:

QR has a stake in LATAM, right?

10 %

Which is a key reason why QR would want to lease their assets. That, and the fact that the Brazilian economy isn't doing that well currently.

QR has a ton of 788's that were for their European routes I thought. If they're putting the A359 on some of those routes, where will the displaced 788's go. I don't think the 788's have crew rests, so they're limited in the missions they can do, right?

mict wrote:

If I remember correctly, they will be leasing 4 frames from LATAM due to the delay on their own order.
They will be flying to various European destinations, I saw the list somewhere but can't remember the exact destinations. As pointed out MUC is one, and I think MAD as well.

Where in Europe do the 350s fly for LATAM? Having one or more common stations probably makes sense operationally.

Cubsrule wrote:

mict wrote:

If I remember correctly, they will be leasing 4 frames from LATAM due to the delay on their own order.
They will be flying to various European destinations, I saw the list somewhere but can't remember the exact destinations. As pointed out MUC is one, and I think MAD as well.

Where in Europe do the 350s fly for LATAM? Having one or more common stations probably makes sense operationally.

As far as I know, MAD & MXP (MXP is planned to be downgraded to 767)

Why would LATAM be in a position to lease 4 A350 to Qatar, sounds like their entire A350 fleet ? Ate things in Brazil so bad they a cutting all the flights the A350 are used on because MIA is still full of LATAM, LAN and TAM planes.

I'd love to see the hybrid livery these aircraft will wear. A white fuselage with the Qatar oryx and titles?

jfk777 wrote:

Why would LATAM be in a position to lease 4 A350 to Qatar, sounds like their entire A350 fleet ? Ate things in Brazil so bad they a cutting all the flights the A350 are used on because MIA is still full of LATAM, LAN and TAM planes.

Yes LATAM & LAN flights from non-Brazil cities.

jfk777 wrote:

Why would LATAM be in a position to lease 4 A350 to Qatar, sounds like their entire A350 fleet ? Ate things in Brazil so bad they a cutting all the flights the A350 are used on because MIA is still full of LATAM, LAN and TAM planes.

The Brazilian economy continues to disappoint and the Brazilian airline activity is contracting, not growing. Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy. The brain trust @ SCL has decided to unload them to QR until such time when things improve for LATAM's Brazil division. For the time being, the 77Ws and 767s do a fine job. Lets also not forget that LATAM Chile is phasing out the 767 from its fleet next month, so I would not be surprised to learn that more 767s are making their way to Brazil.

The bigger question is what will LATAM do with the yet-to-be-delivered A350s? Defer delivery? Send them to QR?

dcajet wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

Why would LATAM be in a position to lease 4 A350 to Qatar, sounds like their entire A350 fleet ? Ate things in Brazil so bad they a cutting all the flights the A350 are used on because MIA is still full of LATAM, LAN and TAM planes.

The Brazilian economy continues to disappoint and the Brazilian airline activity is contracting, not growing. Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy. The brain trust @ SCL has decided to unload them to QR until such time when things improve for LATAM's Brazil division. For the time being, the 77Ws and 767s do a fine job. Lets also not forget that LATAM Chile is phasing out the 767 from its fleet next month, so I would not be surprised to learn that more 767s are making their way to Brazil.

The bigger question is what will LATAM do with the yet-to-be-delivered A350s? Defer delivery? Send them to QR?

Are there plans to remove any of the 767's from the fleet? They would be ideal for Westjet if so. (Sorry to stray off topic).

dcajet wrote:

Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy. The brain trust @ SCL has decided to unload them to QR until such time when things improve for LATAM's Brazil division... The bigger question is what will LATAM do with the yet-to-be-delivered A350s? Defer delivery? Send them to QR?

Interesing post dcajet. On another thread, C0I0TE mentioned that LATAM does not really know what to do with the A359s. It is a pity considering that they are such great planes. I could imagine that LATAM would be able to fill them on flights to MIA from GRU, SCL and GIG, to MAD from SCL and GRU, to JFK from GRU, and perhaps some others.

Softaero wrote:

Which is a key reason why QR would want to lease their assets. That, and the fact that the Brazilian economy isn't doing that well currently.

And an extra bonus. Airbus is presumably picking up part of the lease cost.

nascar1 wrote:

Softaero wrote:

QR has a stake in LATAM, right?

Yes, a 10% of LATAM.

That explains it. This may be QR's Jetihad.

- 3 A350 will remain at JJ, out of 7 that they have received so far. They will be used in the GRU-MAD and GRU-CDG. This last route won't be used on a daily basis since they will also deploy a B77W.
Out of these 4 planes, I think 2 will be leased for 6 months and 2 for 1 year.

There have been some recovery in pax flying to/from Brazil: https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/the-us-big-3-airlines-enjoy-rally-in-domestic--latin-markets-as-the-atlantic-and-pacific-languish-326582

EddieDude wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy. The brain trust @ SCL has decided to unload them to QR until such time when things improve for LATAM's Brazil division... The bigger question is what will LATAM do with the yet-to-be-delivered A350s? Defer delivery? Send them to QR?

Interesing post dcajet. On another thread, C0I0TE mentioned that LATAM does not really know what to do with the A359s. It is a pity considering that they are such great planes. I could imagine that LATAM would be able to fill them on flights to MIA from GRU, SCL and GIG, to MAD from SCL and GRU, to JFK from GRU, and perhaps some others.

The former TAM's long haul fleet was a hodge podge of types (330/77W/350/767); far too many for the powers that be at SCL. They let the 330s go, replaced them with newer 767s and were left with the 77W and the 350, and these two overlap. LAN is a very conservatively managed airline and that is what made them the success they were. Clearly the merger with TAM, in part due to awful timing, the nosedive taken by the BR economhy and the vast cultural differences between these two airlines was not what LAN was hoping for. Once they can sort these shorter term issues, the upside for LATAM is huge. Brazil won't be in the pits forever.

I think that the problem is not only the brazilian economy as other companies are increasing their flights to Brazil. I do believe that the Chilenians does not have a clue in what they can do with the former TAM....

BTW I flew MAD-GRU last week in the 350 in business... Nice ride....

dcajet wrote:

Once they can sort these shorter term issues, the upside for LATAM is huge. Brazil won't be in the pits forever.

I agree with your post. It remains to be seen whether they will commit to the 77W and A359 fleets going forward once things pick up or if one of the two types will be dropped in favor of more Dreamliners. The 77Ws probably need to have their J-class seats replaced based on what I read on another post.

Some quick facts, but more or less confirmed by various sources inside LATAM:

4 A350-900s will be transferred to QR on a dry-lease scheme. The original idea was to provide the planes as wet-lease, but differences between the Brazilian and Qatari aircrew regulations precluded this.

No more A350s will be delivered to LATAM anytime soon.

Without much noise, LATAM Brazil made some registration pre-assignment with Brazilian CAA for at least more 8 767s, so maybe they get these frames in the near future.

As Brazilian economy is still struggling and other future A350 operator (Azul) might not receive its A350 as planned either, but this is subject to much speculation.

Time will tell..

Why won't these planes be used on flights to JFK, BOS, and PHL? Is it because they somehow aren't equipped to or because the contract of the lease forbids it?

simdubai wrote:

To me, I never seen an ME Airline ever leasing an Latin American aircraft before, any thoughts why they are leasing LATAM's aircraft?

Maybe, you're too young, but Etihad leased some of TAM's 332s for years, after their long-haul strategy was thrown out of the window when the BRL underwent its first maxi-devaluation.

dcajet wrote:

The Brazilian economy continues to disappoint and the Brazilian airline activity is contracting, not growing.

I believe the not so latest news haven't reached you yet. I understand, people take quite a while to see that the winds have changed.

dcajet wrote:

Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy.

Actually, they were incorporated into the fleet without a strategy, since LAN was the one having to dump their 767s in order to accept the hordes of 787 they had purchased in their pointless shopping spree. LATAM should have deferred the A350s, cancelled the order or swap for more future A320 family frames, but they did no such thing, while they had a bunch of Boeing frames on the way without a strategy either. I cannot imagine what would have happened, if they did hadn't merged with TAM, since old LAN would have been in the position of absorbing all the 787 without shedding all the 767.

The latest rumour is that CASA is not satisfied with the crew rest solution on LA's 787s for such a long flight like SCL-MEL, which is why JJ's 350s might come in play.

dcajet wrote:

The former TAM's long haul fleet was a hodge podge of types (330/77W/350/767); far too many for the powers that be at SCL. They let the 330s go, replaced them with newer 767s and were left with the 77W and the 350, and these two overlap. LAN is a very conservatively managed airline and that is what made them the success they were. Clearly the merger with TAM, in part due to awful timing, the nosedive taken by the BR economhy and the vast cultural differences between these two airlines was not what LAN was hoping for. Once they can sort these shorter term issues, the upside for LATAM is huge. Brazil won't be in the pits forever.

TAM's strategy was really sound. They wanted a mix of 77W and 350. Of course, the 77W became superfluous, when the Airbus changed its specs, but that is not TAM's fault, since they were one of the firsts to place A350 orders. Once in fleet, they would be have been able to see that a combination of 358 and 359 would be more than sufficient.
The 767s that TAM had in fleet before LAN were only an interim solution and were already leaving the fleet when the merger came through.

LAN is more than a conservative airline. It has dogmatic management, not competent and careful. It's not a surprise that they are being given a run for their money in the highly competitive Brazilian market. LATAM has had years to come up with a solution for the combined fleet, but they let it become a hodge-podge, since they really did not have a clue.

s.p.a.s. wrote:

As Brazilian economy is still struggling and other future A350 operator (Azul) might not receive its A350 as planned either, but this is subject to much speculation.

Why is it speculation, when it was part of their filing with the SEC?

C010T3 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

The Brazilian economy continues to disappoint and the Brazilian airline activity is contracting, not growing.

I believe the not so latest news haven't reached you yet. I understand, people take quite a while to see that the winds have changed.

dcajet wrote:

Since delivery those A350s have been wandering around the network without a clear strategy.

Actually, they were incorporated into the fleet without a strategy, since LAN was the one having to dump their 767s in order to accept the hordes of 787 they had purchased in their pointless shopping spree. LATAM should have deferred the A350s, cancelled the order or swap for more future A320 family frames, but they did no such thing, while they had a bunch of Boeing frames on the way without a strategy either. I cannot imagine what would have happened, if they did hadn't merged with TAM, since old LAN would have been in the position of absorbing all the 787 without shedding all the 767.

The latest rumour is that CASA is not satisfied with the crew rest solution on LA's 787s for such a long flight like SCL-MEL, which is why JJ's 350s might come in play.

dcajet wrote:

The former TAM's long haul fleet was a hodge podge of types (330/77W/350/767); far too many for the powers that be at SCL. They let the 330s go, replaced them with newer 767s and were left with the 77W and the 350, and these two overlap. LAN is a very conservatively managed airline and that is what made them the success they were. Clearly the merger with TAM, in part due to awful timing, the nosedive taken by the BR economhy and the vast cultural differences between these two airlines was not what LAN was hoping for. Once they can sort these shorter term issues, the upside for LATAM is huge. Brazil won't be in the pits forever.

TAM's strategy was really sound. They wanted a mix of 77W and 350. Of course, the 77W became superfluous, when the Airbus changed its specs, but that is not TAM's fault, since they were one of the firsts to place A350 orders. Once in fleet, they would be have been able to see that a combination of 358 and 359 would be more than sufficient.
The 767s that TAM had in fleet before LAN were only an interim solution and were already leaving the fleet when the merger came through.

LAN is more than a conservative airline. It has dogmatic management, not competent and careful. It's not a surprise that they are being given a run for their money in the highly competitive Brazilian market. LATAM has had years to come up with a solution for the combined fleet, but they let it become a hodge-podge, since they really did not have a clue.

Glad to hear winds have changed in Brazil. No need to be patronizing. I am neither Chilean nor Brazilian so I won't get into the LAN v. TAM dichotomy, I just wish LATAM and Brazil the best.

Now, I do have a question. Why would the Australian CASA have an issue with the crew rest arrangements on a Chilean registered aircraft? Certainly out of their jurisdiction. Why would that even come up for CASA to chime in about it?

dcajet wrote:

The latest rumour is that CASA is not satisfied with the crew rest solution on LA's 787s for such a long flight like SCL-MEL, which is why JJ's 350s might come in play.

A friend of mine who is currently flying for LA just told me that but she didnt know about any solution for the Crew Rest on the 787 ... Any idea for what would be this solution ??? Is doable to install the crew rest in the LA 787 fleet???(i mean cabin crew rest (rear cabin) because the 787´s are equiped with only pilots crew rest(front cabin) .
I also learned that LA will take over the GRU-MXP with de 787-9 instead of the JJ A350 that will operate the SCL-MEL due the crew rest issue on the 787 .....
My guess is that LAN isnt seeing the potencial it has on they very own hands because of the lack of management . They underestimated the brazilian market and the aircrew regulamentation so now they are paying the bill but instead of admit their fail ... they keep pushing the shit to the carpet .....RED CARPET ....

MatheusLPV wrote:

I also learned that LA will take over the GRU-MXP with de 787-9 instead of the JJ A350 that will operate the SCL-MEL due the crew rest issue on the 787 .....
My guess is that LAN isnt seeing the potencial it has on they very own hands because of the lack of management . They underestimated the brazilian market and the aircrew regulamentation so now they are paying the bill but instead of admit their fail ... they keep pushing the shit to the carpet .....RED CARPET ....

Why do they keep changing this route, specifically?

First it was GRU-MXP with JJ A330. Then they decided to do SCL-GRU-MXP with a LA 788. After that they changed to JJ A350. Now it will change again to JJ B767 only to end up with LA again, using a B789....

Oh my...

dcajet wrote:

Now, I do have a question. Why would the Australian CASA have an issue with the crew rest arrangements on a Chilean registered aircraft? Certainly out of their jurisdiction. Why would that even come up for CASA to chime in about it?

I wouldn't know. It's a rumour. If CASA weren't so peculiar, I would have found it implausible.

dcajet wrote:

Why would the Australian CASA have an issue with the crew rest arrangements on a Chilean registered aircraft? Certainly out of their jurisdiction. Why would that even come up for CASA to chime in about it?

Is it really outside of their jurisdiction to have an issue with an operational aspect of an aircraft being flown into their country? I think you'll find it's perfectly within their jurisdiction.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

QR has a ton of 788's that were for their European routes I thought. If they're putting the A359 on some of those routes, where will the displaced 788's go. I don't think the 788's have crew rests, so they're limited in the missions they can do, right?

Are they similar capacity? Seems an abuse of either aircraft just using them midhaul to Europe.

DeltaB717 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Why would the Australian CASA have an issue with the crew rest arrangements on a Chilean registered aircraft? Certainly out of their jurisdiction. Why would that even come up for CASA to chime in about it?

Is it really outside of their jurisdiction to have an issue with an operational aspect of an aircraft being flown into their country? I think you'll find it's perfectly within their jurisdiction.

Yes, as it relates to aircraft maintenance, etc. Much as the JAA conducts spot checks on foreign aircraft calling at European Union airports. But the JAA does not worry if F/As have the crew rest area on bunks or on blocked seats. There is a crew rest area on LATAM's long haul aircraft. Crew rest areas are mostly a union contract issue and ultimately an issue for the regulating authority of the country in question, not one for a regulating agency of a third country to worry about. Otherwise, CASA has a lot of free time in its hands.

dcajet wrote:

DeltaB717 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Why would the Australian CASA have an issue with the crew rest arrangements on a Chilean registered aircraft? Certainly out of their jurisdiction. Why would that even come up for CASA to chime in about it?

Is it really outside of their jurisdiction to have an issue with an operational aspect of an aircraft being flown into their country? I think you'll find it's perfectly within their jurisdiction.

Yes, as it relates to aircraft maintenance, etc. Much as the JAA conducts spot checks on foreign aircraft calling at European Union airports. But the JAA does not worry if F/As have the crew rest area on bunks or on blocked seats. There is a crew rest area on LATAM's long haul aircraft. Crew rest areas are mostly a union contract issue and ultimately an issue for the regulating authority of the country in question, not one for a regulating agency of a third country to worry about. Otherwise, CASA has a lot of free time in its hands.

It's not a third country, it's a second country. I'm not reading anywhere that it's cabin crew rest CASA is rumoured to be concerned about, and if it's tech crew rest then they quite possibly have a legitimate fatigue-related concern about an operation within their geographic responsibility. That's their role.

C010T3 wrote:

s.p.a.s. wrote:

As Brazilian economy is still struggling and other future A350 operator (Azul) might not receive its A350 as planned either, but this is subject to much speculation.

Why is it speculation, when it was part of their filing with the SEC?

Moreover, what do they need the A350 for anyway? With TP to Europe, and B6 assisting in the U.S. (and/or potentially joining Star Alliance, and calling upon not only UA but also AV) - why the need for the A350 at all? If anything, the A339 would better fit not only their business model, the current economic realities in Brazil, and the ability to meet almost all of their targets at cost lower than the A350 - but also curtail long-haul expansion plans at a time where the economic benefit would be least successful.

DeltaB717 wrote:

I'm not reading anywhere that it's cabin crew rest CASA is rumoured to be concerned about, and if it's tech crew rest then they quite possibly have a legitimate fatigue-related concern about an operation within their geographic responsibility. That's their role.

The original post does not specify if it is tech or cabin crew what CASA may have an issue with. However a second poster talks specifically about cabin crew rest facilities on board.

I guess the first one is heading to Doha right now
https://www.flightradar24.com/TAM9960/c87d7fb