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KTPAFlyer
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DFW: AA gets serious about Terminal F; Renovations to Terminal C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:20 am

Hello A.net,

Came across an article that discusses the current situation at DFW. Much of it surrounds the debated future of C, stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone knows that it is in need of renovations, but with AA seriously considering building F, C might be needed to bridge the gap between now and the completion of F as traffic numbers continue to grow. There is great uncertainty as to what exactly the plan is or any sort of timeframe, but one thing seems to become increasingly clear: AA and DFW are committed to F, and whatever happens next, it will be very intertwined with the future of C.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/busin ... 56129.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw- ... on-upgrade
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: misleading title
 
commavia
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:36 am

No big surprises - all dynamics that have been discussed before. What I find more interesting about the tone and tenor of the S-T article, compared to some others on this topic over the last few years, is (1) the somewhat more circumspect and less definitive or urgent commentary from the airport on F's timing, and (2) no mention about the question of whether F will be partially or fully FIS-capable.

In any event, I agree with the general gist of the article that F is a question of when, not if - but it obviously does make sense for the airport and its largest operator to come to broader agreement on the long-term growth trajectory for the airport first. Plus, as this latest report alludes to, the current state of C - aging, but functional - gives both the airport and AA great flexibility in terms of the timing of F. AA can keep running things out of C until some or all of F opens.

All that said, though, there's no question that C is aging - rapidly. And yes, the state of C only looks even worse by comparison now that most or all of A, B and E have been refreshed and look so dramatically better than before.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:43 am

Isn't C already a part of the ongoing, mult-year modernization program anyway??
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FriscoHeavy
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:50 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
Isn't C already a part of the ongoing, mult-year modernization program anyway??



No.

Terminal C is a dump. I always seem get get sent out of the High C gates and it feels 3rd world. The rest of the airport is actually very nice now.
Whatever
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:51 am

The issue that they are working to figure out is that depending on the sequence of events to move forward, the decision to build F then go and renovate C in totality versus doing a "rolling" renovation of C in sections, and likely building F anyways at some point could potentially lead to cost-savings to the done of hundreds of millions of dollars.

The renovations of terminals by sections requires them to make numerous modifications to landside, airside, and other infrastructure elements to keep the open parts functional. This all adds costs to the project. If, in theory they built a "greenfield Terminal F", then the closed and renovated C they could just close C all together and do it at once.

This is a broader question of the long-term master plan as if do they need the incremental capacity of F, in additional to C and everything else.

At least DFW is in a position to have the space for additional terminals, unlike many other major airports in the US.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:06 am

So they already have the skytrain tracks in place of a future Terminal F which is currently a parking lot. Would they still keep those tracks open through a major construction zone or would the trains be routed D-B-A-C-E and return?
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:13 am

I find the fact that DFW spent almost $1B for TRIP on Terminal A astounding. Must have been some gold plated systems upgrades because to the passengers its just new paint, new lighting and less room to get by the "improved retail experience."

OK - having read the linked articles, it looks like a big chunk of the money went towards remodeling the parking deck and doing centralized security. Not something transfer passengers would typically see.
Last edited by glbltrvlr on Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:16 am

fraspotter wrote:
So they already have the skytrain tracks in place of a future Terminal F which is currently a parking lot. Would they still keep those tracks open through a major construction zone or would the trains be routed D-B-A-C-E and return?


That's an interesting question. I can't recall if SkyTrain and Terminal D construction occurred at the same time, but I would hope they'll keep running a circular route. Would be a great point of view to see the construction.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:18 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
If, in theory they built a "greenfield Terminal F", then the closed and renovated C they could just close C all together and do it at once.


That would be the cheapest solution. Now, what the other airport tenants would say about paying for another AA terminal is another matter. Wonder how DFW would structure gate rent?
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:31 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
I find the fact that DFW spent almost $1B for TRIP on Terminal A astounding. Must have been some gold plated systems upgrades because to the passengers its just new paint, new lighting and less room to get by the "improved retail experience."


It's not the renovations themselves that cost a lot, but rather the cost of opening and closing stages of the terminal while keeping other parts open. This requires a fairly significant amount of work to reroute pax landside and airside while also minimizing disruption to day to day operations.

fraspotter wrote:
So they already have the skytrain tracks in place of a future Terminal F which is currently a parking lot. Would they still keep those tracks open through a major construction zone or would the trains be routed D-B-A-C-E and return?


Never thought about this- Interesting. I'd imagine for most of it, they'd keep running it as usual, but there will definitely be a point where they'd have to run a return. If D is any indication, the Skylink will enter a covered station within the terminal, and it would definitely be unadvisable to run it through during those stages. That said, this shouldn't affect 99% of people (1% being plane spotters who want to go for a fun ride) because number 1, E services non-AA airlines, mostly catering to O/D who don't need to connect to terminals on the other side, and number 2, if you were at any other terminal, it's business as usual.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:37 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
Hello A.net,

Came across an article that discusses the current situation at DFW. Much of it surrounds the debated future of C, stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone knows that it is in need of renovations, but with AA seriously considering building F, C might be needed to bridge the gap between now and the completion of F as traffic numbers continue to grow. There is great uncertainty as to what exactly the plan is or any sort of timeframe, but one thing seems to become increasingly clear: AA and DFW are committed to F, and whatever happens next, it will be very intertwined with the future of C.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/busin ... 56129.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw- ... on-upgrade


In fact the ramp for Terminal F has already began work.
https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 545768.pdf

KTPAFlyer wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
So they already have the skytrain tracks in place of a future Terminal F which is currently a parking lot. Would they still keep those tracks open through a major construction zone or would the trains be routed D-B-A-C-E and return?


Never thought about this- Interesting. I'd imagine for most of it, they'd keep running it as usual, but there will definitely be a point where they'd have to run a return. If D is any indication, the Skylink will enter a covered station within the terminal, and it would definitely be unadvisable to run it through during those stages. That said, this shouldn't affect 99% of people (1% being plane spotters who want to go for a fun ride) because number 1, E services non-AA airlines, mostly catering to O/D who don't need to connect to terminals on the other side, and number 2, if you were at any other terminal, it's business as usual.


Good point. I feel bad for anyone who has to go from D to the 4 eagle gates in E (E35-E38). 3 min ride to a 15 min ride!!
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:19 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
I find the fact that DFW spent almost $1B for TRIP on Terminal A astounding. Must have been some gold plated systems upgrades because to the passengers its just new paint, new lighting and less room to get by the "improved retail experience."

OK - having read the linked articles, it looks like a big chunk of the money went towards remodeling the parking deck and doing centralized security. Not something transfer passengers would typically see.


The $1B number sounds high to me, too, but then I guess it shouldn't be that "astounding." It was always the plan that TRIP - especially in A - would be heavily weighted towards things that weren't customer-facing, or at least weren't customer-obvious, especially for transfer passengers. That included the new parking garage, but also a significant portion of the overall cost dedicated to HVAC and other systems. Plus, as someone else said, there was also a substantial amount of cost required to do the whole thing incrementally - closing off and redoing chunks of the terminal at a time. And on top of all that, there has been cost escalation over the last six years since TRIP started - and that also brings up one of the other big drivers of the high cost, especially for A: AA's bankruptcy. A lot of these other cost dynamics were compounded and exacerbated by AA's bankruptcy, which caused the airport to slow TRIP down.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
Never thought about this- Interesting. I'd imagine for most of it, they'd keep running it as usual, but there will definitely be a point where they'd have to run a return. If D is any indication, the Skylink will enter a covered station within the terminal, and it would definitely be unadvisable to run it through during those stages. That said, this shouldn't affect 99% of people (1% being plane spotters who want to go for a fun ride) because number 1, E services non-AA airlines, mostly catering to O/D who don't need to connect to terminals on the other side, and number 2, if you were at any other terminal, it's business as usual.


Agree - this can likely be managed fairly easily by keeping SkyLink running over the already-built tracks over F for most of the time that F is being built, closing just periodically when construction requires it. There have already been multiple times when SkyLink has run single-direction due to maintenance - it's not that bad. Thankfully that system is generally so fast and reliable, in my experience, that even in those cases it's still fast and easy to get anywhere in the airport. Plus, as said, E likely has the least amount of connections to D as it is, so it will only affect a small portion of the transfer traffic at the airport.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:48 pm

fraspotter wrote:
So they already have the skytrain tracks in place of a future Terminal F which is currently a parking lot. Would they still keep those tracks open through a major construction zone or would the trains be routed D-B-A-C-E and return?


They should be able to keep them open. Whatever construction company that gets the contract will put up barriers around the pier supports to keep them from getting damaged.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:04 pm

Image

Through the years,Terminal C must be the busiest terminal on the property. Its probably cheaper to build F and raze C. With Skylink the connecting pax will not notice the distance to F from A and B.

On a side note, I was always impressed in the late 80s when AA ops figured out a way to use the horseshoe design to their favor by doubling up aircraft at a single gate. The MD80s wing design made it possible, one gate two jetbridges to two MD80s. Made the overcrowding then Terminal 3E more crowded but smart use of assets by AA. Looking at the latest pics AA has reconfigure C's jet bridges and there not so much of the doubling up. I wander if the Skylink construction had anything to do with that?
 
stevend08
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:07 pm

Any ideas where or if they will relocate Express South parking?
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:53 pm

When I read the thread title I thought First class and Club, I know, silly me. :old:
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user444555
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:53 pm

The current plan regarding the Remote Parking in the Terminal F fotprint is supposedly to re-locate that lot to one of the existing employee lots on the South Side of DFW. Where employees will park is currently being investigated.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:59 pm

While Terminal C needs renovations or rebuilding, I think that geographically speaking, AA should try to remain in whatever becomes of Terminal C in the end. If it is cheaper to build Terminal F and move there temporarily while Terminal C is rebuilt, then so be it. I think it makes little sense to have the end result being that AA is spread between Terminals A B D and F as opposed to A B C and D. AA could take over all of D and OA ops could be isolated in E and F. I agree with those who have said DFW is focusing too much on retail vs. connectivity. As lacking as DFW was with retail and restaurants, they are way overcompensating now.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:08 pm

Just a couple of comments. No matter what they do with any terminal, it is Skylink that is a major concern to me. Currently Terminal B (Eagle) seems to be the stop where so many people get on and off that you have to wait for the next car at times. It is very efficient when it works, but they will have to add more cars or tracks or something. Terminal C is where I used to work 707 flights from, so that's all you need to say about it. Those clackety-clack rollerboard unfriendly floor tiles and the odor of urine combine to make it in need of a major, disruptive renovation. Perhaps donating it to a demolition company for training purposes might be better.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:14 pm

user444555 wrote:
While Terminal C needs renovations or rebuilding, I think that geographically speaking, AA should try to remain in whatever becomes of Terminal C in the end. If it is cheaper to build Terminal F and move there temporarily while Terminal C is rebuilt, then so be it. I think it makes little sense to have the end result being that AA is spread between Terminals A B D and F as opposed to A B C and D. AA could take over all of D and OA ops could be isolated in E and F.


Absolutely. But I think realistically, barring something really dramatic changing, AA is likely going to end up - long-term - controlling much or all of both F and C (or whatever replaces C). Given the competitive dynamics with Spirit, and the move towards much more tightly-peaked banked schedules, it seems more plausible that the majority of the growth in gate demand at DFW will come from AA.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:22 pm

william wrote:

On a side note, I was always impressed in the late 80s when AA ops figured out a way to use the horseshoe design to their favor by doubling up aircraft at a single gate. The MD80s wing design made it possible, one gate two jetbridges to two MD80s. Made the overcrowding then Terminal 3E more crowded but smart use of assets by AA. Looking at the latest pics AA has reconfigure C's jet bridges and there not so much of the doubling up. I wander if the Skylink construction had anything to do with that?


I remember that. Weren't some of those the FIS gates for widebodies too with the glass sliding doors in the concourse? The postcard shows the dotted line for a single plane at the A/B options. I can't recall dual jet bridge operations there, but I was always on the small silver birds off somewhere domestically instead of the international departures. Some fun planes in that photo too, thanks for sharing!
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:26 pm

After thinking about it further, I think they should build Terminal-F as an all Domestic terminal. Then bulldoze C and start over, making all the gates capable of handling domestic or international (like D now). By doing this, you add some 'balance' to the airfield in that you can have international flights on both sides of the airport instead of just the West side (Terminal D & F).
Whatever
 
texl1649
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:31 pm

Ha. Thanks ozark, the challenge with C though isn't it's demolition as an exercise itself, but demolition and rebuilding, with proper financing, while handling the asbestos issues properly. C was the original terminal built with a different vision like the old train terminals, pre asbestos issues, with a centralized passenger waiting area, rather than individual gates. A relatively cheaply built structure modified, maintained and adapted repeatedly for four plus decades, perhaps six by the time it's finished off.

Demolition and construction for both c and f will be done without interrupting the skylink routes, thankfully. The line already traces the full f terminal, it just doesn't stop as there's nothing there but views of a nice parking lot.
 
incitatus
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:49 pm

Terminal F at DFW? I thought that was reserved for Southwest when it moves over from Love Field.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:55 pm

incitatus wrote:
Terminal F at DFW? I thought that was reserved for Southwest when it moves over from Love Field.


I think that vision lasted for about 6 weeks between the time DL announced they would de-hub and WN announced they would take the Wright Amendment back to court. Oh, and it only existed in the minds of the DFW Board. ;)
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seatback
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:39 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
incitatus wrote:
Terminal F at DFW? I thought that was reserved for Southwest when it moves over from Love Field.


I think that vision lasted for about 6 weeks between the time DL announced they would de-hub and WN announced they would take the Wright Amendment back to court. Oh, and it only existed in the minds of the DFW Board. ;)

If projections hold true that DFW's population will be 15/20 million in the next several years, 18 gates at Love Field won't be enough for them. The question will be can WN make more money (in the future) at DFW than from a capped operation at Love Field (?)
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:33 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
After thinking about it further, I think they should build Terminal-F as an all Domestic terminal. Then bulldoze C and start over, making all the gates capable of handling domestic or international (like D now). By doing this, you add some 'balance' to the airfield in that you can have international flights on both sides of the airport instead of just the West side (Terminal D & F).


Good point about the operations side, they could make C a replica of D. Get rid of the Hyatt on the east side and make it Grand Hyatt like on the west side. But it would balance airfield ops for first time in the airport's history.
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:35 pm

william wrote:
Image

Through the years,Terminal C must be the busiest terminal on the property. Its probably cheaper to build F and raze C. With Skylink the connecting pax will not notice the distance to F from A and B.

On a side note, I was always impressed in the late 80s when AA ops figured out a way to use the horseshoe design to their favor by doubling up aircraft at a single gate. The MD80s wing design made it possible, one gate two jetbridges to two MD80s. Made the overcrowding then Terminal 3E more crowded but smart use of assets by AA. Looking at the latest pics AA has reconfigure C's jet bridges and there not so much of the doubling up. I wander if the Skylink construction had anything to do with that?


Question, does the terminal area control tower built by AA in the pic between A and C control ground movements on the west side too at A and D?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:11 pm

Without having been to DFW in years, what is the thing that makes C so bad compared to A and B? Those were the original terminals, right? Shouldn't A, B, and C be in a similar condition?

Also, will F be in the same, rectangular shape as D? Or a semi-circle like the rest?
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user444555
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:27 pm

william wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
After thinking about it further, I think they should build Terminal-F as an all Domestic terminal. Then bulldoze C and start over, making all the gates capable of handling domestic or international (like D now). By doing this, you add some 'balance' to the airfield in that you can have international flights on both sides of the airport instead of just the West side (Terminal D & F).


Good point about the operations side, they could make C a replica of D. Get rid of the Hyatt on the east side and make it Grand Hyatt like on the west side. But it would balance airfield ops for first time in the airport's history.


Yes but to keep balance would that not mean F would need to be a semi-circle like E? I agree that would make DFW more visually appealing, especially from the air, but I think DFW decided that was not as functional as the design for Terminal D.

What does everyone think?
 
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:40 pm

user444555 wrote:
william wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
After thinking about it further, I think they should build Terminal-F as an all Domestic terminal. Then bulldoze C and start over, making all the gates capable of handling domestic or international (like D now). By doing this, you add some 'balance' to the airfield in that you can have international flights on both sides of the airport instead of just the West side (Terminal D & F).


Good point about the operations side, they could make C a replica of D. Get rid of the Hyatt on the east side and make it Grand Hyatt like on the west side. But it would balance airfield ops for first time in the airport's history.


Yes but to keep balance would that not mean F would need to be a semi-circle like E? I agree that would make DFW more visually appealing, especially from the air, but I think DFW decided that was not as functional as the design for Terminal D.

What does everyone think?



When I mention 'Balance', I do not mean visually. What I mean is the ability to handle international traffic. If Terminal F were to handle international, then all international (inbounds at least) would all be clustered on the West side of the field.

By making the new Terminal C capable of handling incoming international flights, it helps reduce having planes that land on the East side (many Europe, Middle East & Europe flights) from having to taxi all the way over to the West side....Or on take-off, Eastbound flights generally taxi over to the East side of the airport. By having an international terminal on the East side of the field, you can more evenly distribute international flights by runway, making all aspects for efficient.

I don't care if the new terminal is semi-circle or looks more like Terminal-D. Either way, a new terminal would be very nice.
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NichCage
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:00 pm

DFW actually has lots of space to build new terminals, which is very good for the future of the airport. If LAX had the space of DFW it would for sure be a much better airport.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:16 pm

seatback wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
incitatus wrote:
Terminal F at DFW? I thought that was reserved for Southwest when it moves over from Love Field.


I think that vision lasted for about 6 weeks between the time DL announced they would de-hub and WN announced they would take the Wright Amendment back to court. Oh, and it only existed in the minds of the DFW Board. ;)

If projections hold true that DFW's population will be 15/20 million in the next several years, 18 gates at Love Field won't be enough for them. The question will be can WN make more money (in the future) at DFW than from a capped operation at Love Field (?)


The estimated population of the DFW metropolitan statistic area was approximately 7 million in 2016. At present rate of 2.5% population growth per year, it will be 25-30 years before the DFW area hits 15 million. I think we would all agree that is substantially further away than the "next several years."

It's certainly possible that WN would outgrow its 18 gates long before then. However, I think WN would rather take Wright II back to court than split or relocate operations to DFW. That's a topic for a different thread, of course. WN won't have any impact on the planning of Terminal F and Terminal C.
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:52 pm

I've been lucky enough for my last several flights that I hadn't been in terminal C in probably over a year until last week when I departed and arrived from there. It really is awful now compared to the other terminals. I worked in terminal E (then 4E) in the late 90s and always thought C was a dump then. Any how, when I was taking the train from C over to D where I was parked, I was wondering how they would be able to build F with the train functioning. What ever they do, I bet it could make for a good episode of Modern Marvels some day.

I'll also add that the new parking garage in A is just about worth $1Billion all on its own compared to the old structures. I always park there or D regardless of where I'm flying out of due to the parking guidance systems. For those who are unfamiliar, there are small LED lights over each space that turn red or green depending on if they are in use or not. There are also signs throughout the garages that tell you how many open spots are on each level and then on each row. It's really slick.
 
Austin787
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:56 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Without having been to DFW in years, what is the thing that makes C so bad compared to A and B? Those were the original terminals, right? Shouldn't A, B, and C be in a similar condition?

Also, will F be in the same, rectangular shape as D? Or a semi-circle like the rest?


A was recently renovated, and looks fresh and modern. Don't know about B. C has not had any renovations recently, so it looks dated compared to A. D was built around 2005.
 
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gdg9
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:40 am

william wrote:
Image


Hey, I tweeted that picture out just last week on the dfwtower twitter after finding that postcard at WalMart of all places - funny to see it making the rounds, was it at another store too?
@dfwtower
 
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gdg9
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:42 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
I find the fact that DFW spent almost $1B for TRIP on Terminal A astounding. Must have been some gold plated systems upgrades because to the passengers its just new paint, new lighting and less room to get by the "improved retail experience."


I don't agree there, compare A today and C today. C is pretty much what A used to look like. A is quite nice now that all the renovations are done, and seems much more spacious than before.

I had thought the plan in C was the demolish the high gates which were modular gates basically, and just redo the original C. Rumors of asbestos delaying the process were false - I got that directly from the airport media department.
@dfwtower
 
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william
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:23 am

gdg9 wrote:
william wrote:
Image


Hey, I tweeted that picture out just last week on the dfwtower twitter after finding that postcard at WalMart of all places - funny to see it making the rounds, was it at another store too?


I actually have this postcard.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:18 pm

gdg9 wrote:
A is quite nice now that all the renovations are done, and seems much more spacious than before.


I don't disagree that it's nice as far as it goes. The lighting and paint do make it very fresh. My issue is space. They didn't add any passenger square footage. That additional retail was for the most part carved out of the gate seating areas. The current trend of hard banking makes things worse - you can't look at average or total passenger counts, you have to look at peak hour numbers and those have certainly gone up. Compressing those people into the same concourse walkway space and smaller gate areas makes for a less enjoyable experience.
 
mhkansan
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:08 pm

Renovating C and building F simultaneously would be possible. When the E terminal TRIP project is complete, AA could take over the gates in the satellite temporarily. AA already has an Expressjet / Eagle operation over at E.
 
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william
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:10 pm

mhkansan wrote:
Renovating C and building F simultaneously would be possible. When the E terminal TRIP project is complete, AA could take over the gates in the satellite temporarily. AA already has an Expressjet / Eagle operation over at E.


Seriously? AA Eagle has outgrown A with the stinger concourse?
 
mhkansan
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:41 pm

william wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
Renovating C and building F simultaneously would be possible. When the E terminal TRIP project is complete, AA could take over the gates in the satellite temporarily. AA already has an Expressjet / Eagle operation over at E.


Seriously? AA Eagle has outgrown A with the stinger concourse?


AA kept the former US Airways gates and reconfigured and added gates for Eagle operations once the LUS ops moved to C terminal. As Expressjet receives more CRJ-700 aircraft these gates will be even busier!
 
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william
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:03 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
user444555 wrote:
william wrote:

Good point about the operations side, they could make C a replica of D. Get rid of the Hyatt on the east side and make it Grand Hyatt like on the west side. But it would balance airfield ops for first time in the airport's history.


Yes but to keep balance would that not mean F would need to be a semi-circle like E? I agree that would make DFW more visually appealing, especially from the air, but I think DFW decided that was not as functional as the design for Terminal D.

What does everyone think?



When I mention 'Balance', I do not mean visually. What I mean is the ability to handle international traffic. If Terminal F were to handle international, then all international (inbounds at least) would all be clustered on the West side of the field.

By making the new Terminal C capable of handling incoming international flights, it helps reduce having planes that land on the East side (many Europe, Middle East & Europe flights) from having to taxi all the way over to the West side....Or on take-off, Eastbound flights generally taxi over to the East side of the airport. By having an international terminal on the East side of the field, you can more evenly distribute international flights by runway, making all aspects for efficient.

I don't care if the new terminal is semi-circle or looks more like Terminal-D. Either way, a new terminal would be very nice.


I meant all operations. Ever since DFW opened with one terminal on the west and three on the east side, DFW has always been unbalanced ops wise on the east side. By moving C ops to the west side, balances things out a bit.

As for looks, it would be nice to have a cohesive look. However,since someone decided to build terminal D with a snow white exterior instead of the original earth tone colors the airport was built with, cohesive design is not a word I would use in regards to DFW.
 
alasizon
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:19 pm

william wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
Renovating C and building F simultaneously would be possible. When the E terminal TRIP project is complete, AA could take over the gates in the satellite temporarily. AA already has an Expressjet / Eagle operation over at E.


Seriously? AA Eagle has outgrown A with the stinger concourse?


B, but yes. The gates over on B were really designed for E145s and as more CR9s/E75s came online, the resizing of the gates meant less gates available.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:58 am

william wrote:
I actually have this postcard.


Love the DC-10 two door boarding...
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:22 am

stevend08 wrote:
In fact the ramp for Terminal F has already began work.
https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 545768.pdf

Thanks for linking to that. I had been trying to find information on DFW projects for years and never could. I was going to ask where you got it, but found it while a.net was down. I wish there were some terminal information, but I'll take the airfield info.

gdg9 wrote:
I had thought the plan in C was the demolish the high gates which were modular gates basically, and just redo the original C. Rumors of asbestos delaying the process were false - I got that directly from the airport media department.

'Phase 4 High Gate Build' is still listed on the latest (Jan 2016 :roll: ) TRIP master schedule. I have always assumed that meant a full raze-and-rebuild of the trailer park.


Just because DFW is talking to AA about F doesn't necessarily mean that AA is going to be a tenant of F, correct? It just means that they have to agree to share the costs, I think. Since the C-on-hold news was publicized last month, I was thinking that once A and B (and even E) were fully open, AA would have a better idea as to realistic peak load during banks, and could then determine how many gates they could stand to give up to a TRIP of C, and whether that meant waiting on F to move into there temporarily, or perhaps temporarily moving into E short-term. I don't think AA would just permanently walk away from C and give up one corner of their connected polygon without some serious thought and concessions from DFW.
 
TripleA
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:48 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Without having been to DFW in years, what is the thing that makes C so bad compared to A and B? Those were the original terminals, right? Shouldn't A, B, and C be in a similar condition?

Also, will F be in the same, rectangular shape as D? Or a semi-circle like the rest?


I got to spend a LOT of time in C back in April (because of a canceled flight to PHX). I know this may sound weird, but I actually kind of thought it was cool. It felt like stepping back in time or something. A lot of old AA signage was still up at the gates, and some of the (I assume to be the original) tinted windows are still there, although some of them were so dirty you could hardly see out (I think they were at the high-numbered C gates).

As a side note, does anyone know what those loud, fire alarm-sounding noises are that periodically go off in the gate areas? I heard them in both B and C. They sounded like those new, awful high pitched fire alarms and would go off for a few seconds.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:54 pm

stevend08 wrote:
In fact the ramp for Terminal F has already began work.
https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 545768.pdf


That's interesting. If the red area represents the new ramp work, they'll have considerable more to go before they match the terminal D ramp.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:12 pm

C does suck to be in. The recent completion of the renovation of A is a vast contrast. Being in A is great. Being in C is a throwback to the 80s!

F should be like D, with another A380 gate and additional 777 slots, perhaps even some specific for the 777X. A, B and C cater to AA regional/domestic ops pretty well, although there are some domestic flights out of D as well.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
justplanenutz
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Re: DFW: AA gets serious about F; Renovations to C in lingo

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:30 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
stevend08 wrote:
I don't think AA would just permanently walk away from C and give up one corner of their connected polygon without some serious thought and concessions from DFW.


I guess I think the opposite. If F is cheaper (than a phased C redo), more modern and more efficient, why wouldn't AA want it? With Skylink, it doesn't really matter exactly where in the core complex AA's gates are. So build F, scrape C and bank the land for the future. And 10 years after F if airlines (AA or not) need more gates, it may be cheaper then too to build a green field new terminal outside the core and Skylink for non-AA/OW carriers (with its own FIS) and give E (and all of D) to AA too. If DFW really is prepping a 30-50 year plan, that covers all the bases.

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