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KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:20 pm

I was booking a YYZ-MEX segment this summer and found that it will be operated by Rouge. I then checked YVR, and it is the same. Is this a permanent change? I know YUL is a seasonal Rouge operation, and this is certainly a downgrade in service! I wonder if this will be to AMs benefit.
flyOM
 
Topguncanada
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:44 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:23 pm

It is permanent. However keep in mind that everything is subject to change!

I think long term AC would prefer the 737Max on the route however at the moment AC wants the extra 16 seats on those flights vs. only 120 on the mainline 319s.
 
KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:23 pm

I apologize as I opened another discussion earlier on the same subject, and I thought it was not posted. I already requested for deletion. Please bear with me and do not flame me.
flyOM
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:53 pm

Provided this flight is operated as any other North American flight, there isn't really much of a difference to be seen in terms of service levels. Trade a couple inches of pitch in Y for a better seat cushion and there you have it.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2500
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:39 pm

I was under the impression the Rouge serves leisure/tourist destinations and MEX seems more like a business market.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:54 pm

MEX is the most populous city in North America. With the elimination of the visa requirement for Mexicans visiting Canada, traffic between MEX and Canada is increasing quite a bit. AC has been waaaay too slow in responding, and AM is aggressively trying to dominate these markets. Out of YVR alone, AM is now running 10 flights/week on a B738 as compared to AC with 7/week on an A319. AM is even opening up a YYC-MEX direct 7x per week on a B738. AM is doing YUL-MEX 7 days/week year round (I believe). That might be expanding to 11 flights/week, for at least some of the year.

I'm assuming that AM is doing fairly well, judging by how many flights they're operating. They've certainly been offering some excellent prices, especially connecting through MEX to South America. AC is panicking and making these routes Rouge to stay competitive. We'll see whether it's too little, too late, or not.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: MEX getting Rouged

Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:56 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
I was under the impression the Rouge serves leisure/tourist destinations and MEX seems more like a business market.

There's plenty of affluent Mexicans who can now visit Canada with relative ease. There may not be that many Canadian tourists going to MEX, but there's plenty of Mexican tourists interested in Canada.
 
tilerchin
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:32 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:21 am

I guess this route was feeling mischievous and decided to go rouge (rogue)
 
masgniw
Posts: 559
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Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:24 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Provided this flight is operated as any other North American flight, there isn't really much of a difference to be seen in terms of service levels. Trade a couple inches of pitch in Y for a better seat cushion and there you have it.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

99.99999% of fliers simply won't know the difference (The same is true for 10-abreast vs 9-abreast on 777). The lack of biz/first might irk the rare premium traveler, but otherwise it's an exceedingly status quo Y product.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:24 am

masgniw wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Provided this flight is operated as any other North American flight, there isn't really much of a difference to be seen in terms of service levels. Trade a couple inches of pitch in Y for a better seat cushion and there you have it.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

99.99999% of fliers simply won't know the difference (The same is true for 10-abreast vs 9-abreast on 777). The lack of biz/first might irk the rare premium traveler, but otherwise it's an exceedingly status quo Y product.

The Rouge A319's have been re-fitted with J, same seats as mainline. So tip to tip, it's essentially no change.
 
FlyUSAir
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:26 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:32 am

Haven't flown on them or mainline Air Canada, but does Rogue get more crap than they deserve?
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:05 am

FlyUSAir wrote:
Haven't flown on them or mainline Air Canada, but does Rogue get more crap than they deserve?


I flew them YUL-ATH last summer, and while it was not terrible, it lacked quality. Pitch was awful, food was awful, and service was very low quality. In fact, I found the cabin crew to be extremely trashy.
flyOM
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:40 am

KLAM wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Haven't flown on them or mainline Air Canada, but does Rogue get more crap than they deserve?


I flew them YUL-ATH last summer, and while it was not terrible, it lacked quality. Pitch was awful, food was awful, and service was very low quality. In fact, I found the cabin crew to be extremely trashy.


I can see where the difference would be more apparent on TATL.

I took AC Rouge on FLL-YYZ and found it essentially the same as mainline US-CAN aside from seat-back IFE replaced with tablet/streaming IFE.
 
Airontario
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:58 pm

aerolimani wrote:
AC has been waaaay too slow in responding, and AM is aggressively trying to dominate these markets. Out of YVR alone, AM is now running 10 flights/week on a B738 as compared to AC with 7/week on an A319. AM is even opening up a YYC-MEX direct 7x per week on a B738. AM is doing YUL-MEX 7 days/week year round (I believe). That might be expanding to 11 flights/week, for at least some of the year.


The vast majority of travel between MEX and Canada is by Mexicans. Therefore AeroMexico has a natural advantage being a local carrier. MEX isn't a key destination for Air Canada. They could slash the city and in the end it wouldn't make a difference to the companies bottom line. Good for AeroMexico that they're doing well going to Canada, but I really doubt Air Canada is shaking in their boots. This route could be getting sent to Rouge merely because they need the mainline aircraft somewhere else. It's all speculation.
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:48 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
Haven't flown on them or mainline Air Canada, but does Rogue get more crap than they deserve?


I've flown Rouge A319s, A321s and a 767 on routes to the western U.S., Florida, Cuba, and Mexico. Except on the 767s, the J product is virtually identical to mainline and the Y product is pretty close. A bit less legroom and no video screens or power outlets (except the A321s have power outlets). Things have apparently improved since Rouge was launched and I prefer a lie-flat over oceans but otherwise the gripe has been a bit over-hyped.
 
Topguncanada
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:44 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:28 pm

The mainline 319s with the 70 Tonne max TO weight are having issues on a regular basis accommodating all the pax and cargo. There have been occurrences where we have had to bump revenue PAX and leave with a few empty seats in order to carry sufficient fuel for the flight.

The Rouge 319s are certified for 75 Tonnes (might be 75.5 i don't recall) max T/O weight which should help negate this issue.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:48 pm

i think it makes sense for YUL-MEX and maybe (not entirely convinced though) YVR-MEX to become Rouge routes, but frankly YYZ-MEX seems to me more of a business route where mainline should be used as opposed to Rouge.

aerolimani wrote:
MEX is the most populous city in North America. With the elimination of the visa requirement for Mexicans visiting Canada, traffic between MEX and Canada is increasing quite a bit. AC has been waaaay too slow in responding... AC is panicking and making these routes Rouge to stay competitive. We'll see whether it's too little, too late, or not.

I would have imagined that the best way to respond would be to make YYZ-MEX an A330 route, at least seasonally. That would certainly give AC a competitive advantage. Someone brought the 737MAX into this discussion. I could totally see AC switch YYZ-MEX from A319 (Rouge) to 738MAX (Mainline) in the future.

masgniw wrote:
99.99999% of fliers simply won't know the difference (The same is true for 10-abreast vs 9-abreast on 777).

Not sure about that. Does Rouge allow fliers to earn miles? That could be a major reason to reject it as a passenger. Some people who fly this route often might also take offense if suddenly they no longer have IFE screens. On the subject of 10- vs 9-abreast on 777s, believe me that the difference is major. Having flown AM and DL 777s several times, and more recently an AZ 777, I can tell you that the AZ 777 was torture, especially for my friend who had the window seat and had the IFE box leaving him with essentially no room for his feet.

Topguncanada wrote:
The mainline 319s with the 70 Tonne max TO weight are having issues on a regular basis accommodating all the pax and cargo. There have been occurrences where we have had to bump revenue PAX and leave with a few empty seats in order to carry sufficient fuel for the flight.

Oh really! Wow. So there is also a technical reason for this too. Is that for the MEX-YVR flights?
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
berari
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:49 pm

I have flown Rough on A319 at B763 and can tell you that the seat pitch and seat quality (cushion on the bum) are inferior to mainline AC. The A319 on sub 4 hours flights was terrible. Interior is gloomy, the quality of the service/staff is also inferior. But it is here to stay, and AC is expanding use of Rouge.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3081
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:52 pm

aerolimani wrote:
MEX is the most populous city in OK North America. With the elimination of the visa requirement for Mexicans visiting Canada, traffic between MEX and Canada is increasing quite a bit. AC has been waaaay too slow in responding, and AM is aggressively trying to dominate these markets. Out of YVR alone, AM is now running 10 flights/week on a B738 as compared to AC with 7/week on an A319. AM is even opening up a YYC-MEX direct 7x per week on a B738. AM is doing YUL-MEX 7 days/week year round (I believe). That might be expanding to 11 flights/week, for at least some of the year.


AM has expanded its Canada ops since last December to 10 weekly at YYZ/ YVR and 11 weekly at YUL.

All three will go double daily year round as of next summer.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... Aeromexico
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
masgniw
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:54 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Not sure about that. Does Rouge allow fliers to earn miles? That could be a major reason to reject it as a passenger. Some people who fly this route often might also take offense if suddenly they no longer have IFE screens. On the subject of 10- vs 9-abreast on 777s, believe me that the difference is major.


Most fliers book flights based on cost and schedule. Earning miles is not nearly as important to the average traveler -- just like how most travelers don't notice the 10 across thing. You've gotta keep in mind anetters and enthusiasts are a rare breed relative to the vast, vast majority of fliers these days.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:27 pm

I have flown a pretty reasonable amount on Rouge and mainline, and asides from the colour of the seats and lack of IFE, I have never noticed any difference, service levels or otherwise. Rouge Y is still superior to a mainline product like United in my opinion. (Though when we consider TATL, food becomes a much greater consideration.)
 
berari
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:37 pm

Now if only AM started flying from other Mexican cities into Canada, namely Puerto Vallarta, Cancun etc. Seeing that WS codeshares with AM on MEX routes, and that it commands service to the tourist destinations, I am not expecting this to happen any time soon.
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:56 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Not sure about that. Does Rouge allow fliers to earn miles? That could be a major reason to reject it as a passenger. Some people who fly this route often might also take offense if suddenly they no longer have IFE screens. On the subject of 10- vs 9-abreast on 777s, believe me that the difference is major. Having flown AM and DL 777s several times, and more recently an AZ 777, I can tell you that the AZ 777 was torture, especially for my friend who had the window seat and had the IFE box leaving him with essentially no room for his feet.

?


Yes of course you can collect aeroplane points as if u were flying mainline. There isn't much difference in the end apart from the more cramped seat pitch in Y, internal wifi ife & FAs.

MEX is a price sensitive market so it's only natural that rouge would be deployer. Furthermore, J is virtually identical to mainline, with exception of the IFE vs iPad.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:56 pm

Airontario wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
AC has been waaaay too slow in responding, and AM is aggressively trying to dominate these markets. Out of YVR alone, AM is now running 10 flights/week on a B738 as compared to AC with 7/week on an A319. AM is even opening up a YYC-MEX direct 7x per week on a B738. AM is doing YUL-MEX 7 days/week year round (I believe). That might be expanding to 11 flights/week, for at least some of the year.


The vast majority of travel between MEX and Canada is by Mexicans. Therefore AeroMexico has a natural advantage being a local carrier.

In this day of google, kayak, expedia, skyscanner, etc, the hometown advantage is greatly reduced. AM's best advantage is connecting flights in and out of MEX. But, when we're talking about a market of 28 million, that's a pretty slim advantage.

Airontario wrote:
MEX isn't a key destination for Air Canada. They could slash the city and in the end it wouldn't make a difference to the companies bottom line. Good for AeroMexico that they're doing well going to Canada, but I really doubt Air Canada is shaking in their boots.

You could say that about many of any airline's destinations. What's your point? Any route that an airline can sell at a good price is a valuable route. AC had a monopoly over these routes for a time, and they were charging a premium for it. Perhaps their lack of response is an indicator that, as you suggest, MEX is considered unimportant. Maybe they're not interested in competing… or maybe making these routes Rouge is their way of competing. Doesn't that make more sense? If so, I still say too little, too late. I really think AC underestimated the market.

Airontario wrote:
This route could be getting sent to Rouge merely because they need the mainline aircraft somewhere else. It's all speculation.

AC doesn't put Rouge on an international route because they need a mainline A319 somewhere else. They do it because they're trying to compete. We're all speculating here, but I still think my reasoning is more likely to be correct.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: MEX getting Rouged

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:49 pm

Although not ideally timed (at least into YYZ), the switch to Rouge could also have something to do with AC trying to connect passengers onwards to Europe, with a 7PM arrival into YYZ, it has the ability to connect to some of the later flights. Having a higher seat count for roughly the same fuel burn will allow them to offer more competitive fares, and compensate for lower yields with higher volume, which seems to be their goal right now on a lot of services.

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