Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:09 am

Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 instead of 24 aircraft of the bankrupt Transaero airline. Apparently several 747s were left behind in poor shape, and repairs are too expensive.


“The rest (ten ex-Transaero aircraft – ed. Russin Aviation Insider) require a good sum of money for repairs the lessors are not ready to spend. It’s unprofitable,” Saveliev said. Judging by his words, the group is not going to lease them. “We had recruited personnel especially for them and created a maintenance group, but restoring the aircraft’s airworthiness is a costly affair. They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

Aeroflot CEO clarified that most of the 10 aircraft left are Boeing 747s.


Article
http://www.rusaviainsider.com/aeroflot- ... -aircraft/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
na
Posts: 9802
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:29 am

Which are the two 744s then which are still under refurbishment for Rossiya?

Sad to hear that the still stored ex-Transaero 744s are in bad shape. Seems to be the same as with the 777s of which one has been flown to the scrappers a few days ago.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7617
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:35 am

“We had recruited personnel especially for them and created a maintenance group, but restoring the aircraft’s airworthiness is a costly affair. They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:41 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
“We had recruited personnel especially for them and created a maintenance group, but restoring the aircraft’s airworthiness is a costly affair. They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:

I agree, it's weird.
However, a more worrying question that that statement leads to is (and I assume these aircraft were flown in passenger service by Transaero right up until the bancruptcy a year or so ago): If it's a question of "restoring the aircraft's airworthiness", how could they be flying with Transaero? How can airline A deem an aircraft not airworthy, that airline B happily flies more than 500 people around in? When both airlines are from the same country, i.e. under the scrutiny of the same authority? How did Transaero get away with that (flying the aircraft "flat out with little care taken")? Or did something simply expire (some documentation, for example?) while the aircraft were grounded? Or is it simply semantics, that it is not really about the airworthiness, but rather just too expensive to get them in mint condition compared to their market value? What does this say about the supervision of the authorities in Russia today?

Please, it's an honest question, not trying to bash Russia or any airline, I'm just simply curious.
 
tvh
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:45 pm

There are other 747's aviable at low cost.
 
aw70
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:20 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:54 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Please, it's an honest question, not trying to bash Russia or any airline, I'm just simply curious.


I would guess it's a mixture of stuff expiring while the a/c were parked, and non-essential mx being deferred as much as possible by a cash-strapped previous operator. That sort of environment can create quite a long list of things that need fixing, if you ever want to take a parked airliner back into quality revenue service. Note that this does not automatically mean that the previous operator ran any risks when operating the a/c.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5673
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:00 pm

I think you will find that with just about every airline that goes bankrupt, one of the cost-saving measures taken in the final days is scrimping on maintenance, often to the point of violating the law. I am sure that ex-Eastern, Braniff, and PA aircraft were in need of a LOT of care before being returned to service, those that were. And I also suspect (with no proof) that getting away with skimping on maintenance is easier in Russia than the US.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
na
Posts: 9802
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:08 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
“We had recruited personnel especially for them and created a maintenance group, but restoring the aircraft’s airworthiness is a costly affair. They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:

I agree, it's weird.
However, a more worrying question that that statement leads to is (and I assume these aircraft were flown in passenger service by Transaero right up until the bancruptcy a year or so ago): If it's a question of "restoring the aircraft's airworthiness", how could they be flying with Transaero? How can airline A deem an aircraft not airworthy, that airline B happily flies more than 500 people around in? When both airlines are from the same country, i.e. under the scrutiny of the same authority? How did Transaero get away with that (flying the aircraft "flat out with little care taken")? Or did something simply expire (some documentation, for example?) while the aircraft were grounded? Or is it simply semantics, that it is not really about the airworthiness, but rather just too expensive to get them in mint condition compared to their market value? What does this say about the supervision of the authorities in Russia today?

Please, it's an honest question, not trying to bash Russia or any airline, I'm just simply curious.


When airlines go bankrupt, often in the months before only the most necessary things are being done to keep the planes flying. I would expect that the aircraft in question are in most cases close to a major inspection, have worn seats, engines close to replacement, many small things waiting for an exchange and so on. They are most likely airworthy in terms of safety requirements, but economically not fit for a multimillion Dollar refurbishment. A 18-year-old 744 just 6 months away from a mandatory D-check is not worth the effort anymore nowadays unless its in an otherwise first class shape. The 744s in question were built between 1992 and 2001.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9723
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:21 pm

There is also "technically airworthy" vs "our standards". When DL bought the Pan Am routes, they also had the opportunity to bring aboard many Pan Am planes, including 727s and some Airbii. I recall sitting next to a DL guy who was coming back from Europe having just inspected Pan Am's 727s over there. He said that the domestic 727s were in okay shape, although they needed work. He said that the 727s he had just looked at in Frankfurt were so horrible (to his DL sensibilities), that he was amazed that they were flying them in that condition. He wasn't just trashing Pan Am. It was clear that he genuinely was just mind-blown. He wasn't saying that they were going to drop out of the sky. He was saying that they were gonna require a lot of work before DL would put them in the system. And I suspect that much of what he was talking about went to reliability rather than fliability. DL ultimately took some of them, fixed them up, and put them into service. Others, not so much.
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:46 pm

I remember reading that PA's A310's were in rough shape when DL aquired them.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:55 pm

United_fan wrote:
I remember reading that PA's A310's were in rough shape when DL aquired them.


I flew on one of them ARN-FBU-ARN (FBU was Fornebu in Oslo) in the summer of 1991, just months before they went bankrupt. The cabin was really beaten up, that's for sure. Upon takeoff from ARN, the screen for the movie at the front of the Y cabin just broke loose and crashed into the laps of the passengers in the bulkhead row.
 
Mumrik
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:22 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 instead of 24 aircraft of the bankrupt Transaero airline. Apparently several 747s were left behind in poor shape, and repairs are too expensive.


“The rest (ten ex-Transaero aircraft – ed. Russin Aviation Insider) require a good sum of money for repairs the lessors are not ready to spend. It’s unprofitable,” Saveliev said. Judging by his words, the group is not going to lease them. “We had recruited personnel especially for them and created a maintenance group, but restoring the aircraft’s airworthiness is a costly affair. They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

Aeroflot CEO clarified that most of the 10 aircraft left are Boeing 747s.


Article
http://www.rusaviainsider.com/aeroflot- ... -aircraft/


... as I posted. : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=598985
;)

Mumrik wrote:

News on this topic.

It now seems Rossiya will not take up the last ten of the ex-Transaero planes first said in the deal. This includes five ex-Transaero 767 and five 747. They are still to receive two more 747 though, as these are at this moment in preparation to be transferred, but these seem to be the last of fourteen jets.

Reason for this seems to be that the last ten are in need of some unprofitable repairs, according to the lessors.

Sorce:http://www.rusaviainsider.com/aeroflot- ... -aircraft/
Aircraft enthusiast and model custom maker
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10377
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:31 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
“They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:

That all smells to me. They just don't want the capacity and are dumping the costs on the debtholders. They needed an excuse.
 
FrancisBegbie
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:22 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:39 pm

enilria wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
“They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:

That all smells to me. They just don't want the capacity and are dumping the costs on the debtholders. They needed an excuse.


It smells indeed. Why would any airline not currently flying 744's start inducting them in their fleet in 2017? Let alone i) an airline from a country not exactly having a boom in travel currently and ii) these 744's in a poor shape. I'm sure the desert is full of okay-ish 744's, which they could have starting operating at any point in time.
 
User avatar
CanadaFair
Posts: 1120
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:22 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:07 pm

Whats the issue with letting old threads run? please stop locking them, I would rather there be continuity on the subject and be able to read old posts on stuff forgotten or missed then have a new thread on it..

Previous forum would auto lock threads after a while and nothing could be done about it, since that is not a concern now please let them run or hold a concensus on it like you have on other changes on the new site.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:17 pm

One big issue might be corrosion. Transaero shut down pretty quickly and aircraft were immediately laid up. This would indicate that storage processes might not have been properly done, and if planes stand around for some time then corrosion can set in where water collects or fluids leak.

Interiors are also the lowest priority on the list when an airline is scrimping for cash.
 
Mumrik
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:37 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Whats the issue with letting old threads run? please stop locking them, I would rather there be continuity on the subject and be able to read old posts on stuff forgotten or missed then have a new thread on it..

Previous forum would auto lock threads after a while and nothing could be done about it, since that is not a concern now please let them run or hold a concensus on it like you have on other changes on the new site.


With you on that! The previous thread was already discussing this topic. :) :bigthumbsup:
Aircraft enthusiast and model custom maker
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:41 pm

Transaero had a great maintenance. It is self-evident: they have never had crashes since 1989 when established.
It is quite possible that Aeroflot is even better in this respect.
But to say that UN neglected anything is simply not true.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10776
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:59 pm

FrancisBegbie wrote:
enilria wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
“They had been operated flat out with little care taken”.

They spent money recruiting people and building a maintenance pool before looking at the aircraft? :confused:

That all smells to me. They just don't want the capacity and are dumping the costs on the debtholders. They needed an excuse.


It smells indeed. Why would any airline not currently flying 744's start inducting them in their fleet in 2017? Let alone i) an airline from a country not exactly having a boom in travel currently and ii) these 744's in a poor shape. I'm sure the desert is full of okay-ish 744's, which they could have starting operating at any point in time.


They already are operating 747s and have been since April 2016. As stated in the article, these aircraft are being delivered to Rossiya, the subsidiary which Aeroflot is essentially using as a vehicle to take over the profitable and mainly leisure focussed routes once flown by Transaero, using the carriers former aircraft.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3687
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:56 am

How many of these planes are sitting in Florida that are not airworthy? I suspect that one is the Flight of Hope 747. (That particular frame is owned by a Russian state bank, as were many other Transaero planes.)
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:58 am

Is it true that some Transaero 747's came from Singapore Airlines?
 
beefstew25
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:02 am

Two of the 744's are still at KMLB. One looks like it's being scrapped. Parked on the east side.
MLB
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3687
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:06 am

beefstew25 wrote:
Two of the 744's are still at KMLB. One looks like it's being scrapped. Parked on the east side.


Is EI-XLK being broken up? That one was taken out of service at just 14 years old.
 
beefstew25
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:56 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
beefstew25 wrote:
Two of the 744's are still at KMLB. One looks like it's being scrapped. Parked on the east side.


Is EI-XLK being broken up? That one was taken out of service at just 14 years old.


I'll try to drive by with some binoculars. One was broken up in the fall and another flew to Ireland for painting.
MLB
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:34 am

Transaero operated 20 747-400s.

9 of the 10 last JAL 747-400s (1 was converted to a freighter by JAL), originally delivered to JAL between 1998 and 1999, went to Transaero. These are relatively new. Of the 9, 8 are with Rossiya. 1 seems to be scrapped. (maybe left in a poor state?)

5 are ex Singapore (2000-2001). 1 of these is with Rossiya. Other 4 are stored?

4 are ex South African. These are a bit older, and are RR powered.

2 are ex Philippine ex South African. These are also older. 1 of these has found another operator.

Always found it odd that Transaero chose to operate 5 PW aircraft, 4 RR aircraft, and 11 GE aircraft.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:18 am

I will have to say surprised but not really.

While in Russia have flown both SU and TransAero. While transaero was fine, every Aeroflot plane we flew on, both long haul and short haul, was in top notch shape and in higher standards than the TransAero planes.

Same for my in laws and my own parents who flew both.

Transaero, besides the NYC-Moscow flights, flew the 747s in sardine can config to tourist destinations, charters, etc.... I am sure those were in far worse shape.

I am sure maintenance wise they were safe, BUT... I can absolutely see the costs of refubrishment and updating them to SU standards being far too costly versus the benefits.
 
Alexdk
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:08 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:35 am

MaksFly wrote:
I will have to say surprised but not really.

While in Russia have flown both SU and TransAero. While transaero was fine, every Aeroflot plane we flew on, both long haul and short haul, was in top notch shape and in higher standards than the TransAero planes.

Same for my in laws and my own parents who flew both.

Transaero, besides the NYC-Moscow flights, flew the 747s in sardine can config to tourist destinations, charters, etc.... I am sure those were in far worse shape.

I am sure maintenance wise they were safe, BUT... I can absolutely see the costs of refubrishment and updating them to SU standards being far too costly versus the benefits.


Rossiya is intentionally made to match lower standards. For example all the entertainment systems on 747s and 777s are permanently turned off and they sometimes put soap pieces!, not liqiud into lavatory (many other examples). This is done so that Rossiya would not compete with Aeroflot itself (although it still steals an amount of passengers from it).
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:12 am

Was meant to post this yesterday before airliners.net went down for maintenance.

Aeroflot most probably pick up few more of those ex-Singapore Airlines B747-412 (PW-powered) but not all. Ex-South Africa Airways B747-444/4F6 (RR- powered) will be left behind most probably. Rossiya now has taken up all ex-JAL B747-446 (GE-powered) but one (EI-XLB).

As for B777 fleet, Rossiya only took up all five ex-Singapore Airlines B777-312 A-market version, leaving behind all nine B777-212/222. VIM Airlines is good candidates for these used aircraft.

As for B767 fleet, UN B767-200 fleet is toasted, gone way past 'expiry date'. B767-300 fare much better, all but two have been snapped up with Azur Air, Condor, Icelandair and VIM Airlines. Some are taken by by Kalitta and Atlas Air for Amazon Prime Air. Exception two: EI-DFS Boeing 767-33A(ER) is still being impounded at Hong Kong Int'l Airport waiting for auction. EI-UNF Boeing 767-3P6(ER) stored in Shanghai since 2015, not sure what happened to it.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
n471wn
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:44 am

beefstew25 wrote:
Two of the 744's are still at KMLB. One looks like it's being scrapped. Parked on the east side.


ATDB which is an excellent data source (subscription required) says that three Transaero 747's are at MLB. They list 26638, 28960 and 29950 as being there and all in storage. If one is being scrapped can you confirm which one?
 
User avatar
RobK
Posts: 3758
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:54 am

There should be EI-XLK, VQ-BHX and VP-BKJ stored at MLB.
 
beefstew25
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:47 am

I can confirm there is only two. One was scrapped in a couple days in the fall. I'll get the regs soon.
MLB
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Aeroflot Group will receive only 14 ex-Transaero aircraft

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:58 am

Bringing everyone up to date with UN's 747-400 fleet:

Ex-Singapore Airlines, PW engines
Boeing 747-412 EI-XLK Stored at Orlando Melbourne Int'l (scrapped??)
Boeing 747-412 EI-XLL Stored at Teruel
Boeing 747-412 EI-XLM Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-412 EI-XLN Stored at Teruel
Boeing 747-412 EI-XLO Stored at Teruel

Ex- South African Airways, RR and GE engines
Boeing 747-444 EI-XLZ Stored at Teruel
Boeing 747-444 VP-BKJ Stored at Orlando Melbourne Int'l (scrapped??)
Boeing 747-444 VP-BKL Stored at Domodedovo Int'l Airport, derelict conditon
Boeing 747-444 VP-BVR Stored at Teruel
Boeing 747-4F6 VQ-BHW 5N-RDK Kabo Air, later 9M-AZB Eaglexpressair, Stored at Victorville
Boeing 747-4F6 VQ-BHX Stored at Orlando Melbourne Int'l (scrapped??)

Ex- Japan Airlines GE engines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLB Stored at Domodedovo Int'l Airport, derelict conditon
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLC Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLD Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLE Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLF Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLG Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLH Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLI Rossiya - Russian Airlines
Boeing 747-446 EI-XLJ Rossiya - Russian Airlines
- Life is a journey, travel it well -

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos