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Dominion301
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737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:12 pm

Hi all. Reading the new AS thread about their non-ER 739s and how they're non-winglet equipped and those that came factory-delivered still with eyebrow windows, got me wondering how many 737-NGs are still out there either:
a) Without winglets?

and/or

b) With eyebrow windows?

Heck even a lot of 732 and 737 Classics and 727s that are still operating have had them plugged. Any of those out there that still have them?
 
Bostrom
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:17 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Hi all. Reading the new AS thread about their non-ER 739s and how they're non-winglet equipped and those that came factory-delivered still with eyebrow windows, got me wondering how many 737-NGs are still out there either:
a) Without winglets?

and/or

b) With eyebrow windows?

Heck even a lot of 732 and 737 Classics and 727s that are still operating have had them plugged. Any of those out there that still have them?


SAS has some 737NGs without winglets. If planespotters.net are correct all (22) of their -600s, 11 of their -700 and 14 of their -800s lack winglets.
 
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RobK
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:22 pm

There's a brand new Copa 800 at BFI without winglets right now. Haven't seen a new build frame without them for a long time so this one is relatively rare. I expect it will go to SJO for them fitting as that's where their previous non-winglet ones have gone in the past.

https://flic.kr/p/ShgwEN
 
iahcsr
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:53 pm

RobK wrote:
There's a brand new Copa 800 at BFI without winglets right now. Haven't seen a new build frame without them for a long time so this one is relatively rare. I expect it will go to SJO for them fitting as that's where their previous non-winglet ones have gone in the past.

https://flic.kr/p/ShgwEN


Winglets are optional on 800s.. and it's MUCH cheaper to have them installed post delivery. Some customers rather fork over the extra $ to Boeing though.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
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mikegigs
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:07 pm

I don't believe -600s come with winglets. I think most-to-all of WS's -600s lack them. These days I think a 737 without them looks kind of funny. The wings seem stubby.

What's the benefit of plugging eyebrow windows? Weight?
What's the benefit of having them?
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Dominion301
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:28 pm

mikegigs wrote:
I don't believe -600s come with winglets. I think most-to-all of WS's -600s lack them. These days I think a 737 without them looks kind of funny. The wings seem stubby.

What's the benefit of plugging eyebrow windows? Weight?
What's the benefit of having them?


I believe the benefits are weight (I think i remember reading upwards of 50kgs in weight savings and maintenance checks on the additional windows.

Oh right, I forgot, please exclude 736s from the discussion as none of them have them.
 
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res77W
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:28 pm

There are some NGs flying around China without winglets.


-Rowen
 
apfpilot
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:28 pm

mikegigs wrote:
I don't believe -600s come with winglets. I think most-to-all of WS's -600s lack them. These days I think a 737 without them looks kind of funny. The wings seem stubby.

What's the benefit of plugging eyebrow windows? Weight?
What's the benefit of having them?


Minor weight but about 300 hours of mx savings over the life of the aircraft. Plugging them also reduces cockpit noise. They were there as a throw back to a time when TCAS didn't exist and there were less backups to see and avoid for traffic avoidance.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
Northwest1988
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:36 pm

I wonder if the idea of plugging the eyebrow windows on MD-80 and MD-90 aircraft was ever thrown around? They started leaving them off of the 717. Just curious if any big MD-80 operators ever thought about plugging them?
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:32 pm

Eyebrow windows helped the pilots see further ahead during a steep bank while turning the aircraft before the days of TCAS. Nowadays, with the TCAS systems in just about all commercial aircraft, the eyebrow windows do nothing but let in extra sunlight. Pilots don't want that glare obviously, so they've been plugged.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:41 pm

apfpilot wrote:
Minor weight but about 300 hours of mx savings over the life of the aircraft. Plugging them also reduces cockpit noise. They were there as a throw back to a time when TCAS didn't exist and there were less backups to see and avoid for traffic avoidance.


Is that so? I was always told they were meant for navigating on the sun or stars if all other navigation equipment fails.
 
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UltimateDelta
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:45 pm

I think Sun Country has one -700 and one -800 without winglets, but as far as I know, they both have the plugged eyebrows (as do the rest of their aircraft that originally came with them).
Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
 
MesserJ
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:03 pm

I know GOL has several 73Gs and 738s without winglets as well. I actually like the look of the NG without winglets; am I the only one?
 
VSMUT
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:35 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
apfpilot wrote:
Minor weight but about 300 hours of mx savings over the life of the aircraft. Plugging them also reduces cockpit noise. They were there as a throw back to a time when TCAS didn't exist and there were less backups to see and avoid for traffic avoidance.


Is that so? I was always told they were meant for navigating on the sun or stars if all other navigation equipment fails.


I am pretty sure he is correct. For celestial navigation, they used (at least on the 707, from which the 737 fuselage and nose is derived) a periscope that extended into the air-flow on the top of the fuselage, not the eyebrows. The eyebrow windows aren't particularly well placed for celestial navigation anyway.
 
justplanesmart
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:00 am

I try to keep extensive records of both winglet and eyebrow status of the 737NG fleet, so I will share the data I have in these areas:

Lacking winglets --
All 69 737-600 aircraft, of which at least 9 have already been scrapped
148 737-700, with 14 being E-7 Wedgetail aircraft, and a further 32 having been broken up
213 737-800, 76 of which are P-8 Poseidon, and 3 parted out

Retaining eyebrows --
6 737-600 (all with EG&G)
82 737-700
120 737-800
10 737-900

These numbers are still in flux, as aircraft change operators or current operators decide to add winglets or pluck eyebrows. For example, YR-BMG was fitted with winglets last December, and two former China Southern 737-700 planes are being prepped for service with Southwest, and will certainly have winglets fitted at some point. I am often at the mercy of photographers posting photos online to keep my data updated, although I live near SEA and occasionally drive near RNT, BFI and, less frequently, PAE.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
bluejuice
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:22 am

From what I have heard, winglets were never certified on the 737-600 so we will probably never see a 736 sporting a set.

Does AS flying some VFR routes in Alaska have anything to do with keeping eyebrow windows on new build NGs?
Not biased against vacuum flush.
 
diverted
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:28 am

bluejuice wrote:
From what I have heard, winglets were never certified on the 737-600 so we will probably never see a 736 sporting a set.

Does AS flying some VFR routes in Alaska have anything to do with keeping eyebrow windows on new build NGs?


Yep. WS was the launch customer for them, but ultimately decided against it.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:02 am

China southern has a few 737-700 and 737-800s without winglets
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:31 am

justplanesmart wrote:
Lacking winglets --
All 69 737-600 aircraft, of which at least 9 have already been scrapped
148 737-700, with 14 being E-7 Wedgetail aircraft, and a further 32 having been broken up
213 737-800, 76 of which are P-8 Poseidon, and 3 parted out


I'm not sure it's really fair to include the P-8 on that list. While they don't have blended winglets, they do have raked wingtips similar to the 77W that are unique to the P-8 variant. I believe that the P-8's wing design is actually more efficient in some aspects. It wouldn't be adapted to the civilian version primarily because the increased wing dimensions would cause a significant loss of operational efficiency for some major 737 carriers. Any efficiency gained in the air would be lost on the ground. As it is, there are a handful of -300 only designated gates for WN at PHX because the -700/-800 winglets exceed the dimensions. With the phase out of that aircraft though, I would imagine they'll have to remedy that relatively soon.
 
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DELTA711
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:53 am

Blue Air, low cost carrier from Romania have a few -800s without winglets... seen them a few times flying over my house on approach into LPL...
 
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hilram
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:35 am

Bostrom wrote:
SAS has some 737NGs without winglets. If planespotters.net are correct all (22) of their -600s, 11 of their -700 and 14 of their -800s lack winglets.

It is my impression SAS is using these on short "bread and butter" routes such as ARN-OSL, OSL-BGO etc. Flights ~1 hr or less. I think winglets would not help so much on such short routes. Considering the age of these frames, I suppose it is better to "cycle them out" on short routes rather than invest in them.
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iRISH251
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:05 am

hilram wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
SAS has some 737NGs without winglets. If planespotters.net are correct all (22) of their -600s, 11 of their -700 and 14 of their -800s lack winglets.

It is my impression SAS is using these on short "bread and butter" routes such as ARN-OSL, OSL-BGO etc. Flights ~1 hr or less. I think winglets would not help so much on such short routes. Considering the age of these frames, I suppose it is better to "cycle them out" on short routes rather than invest in them.


I saw a SAS -800 (LN-RPL) at DUB yesterday (OSL-DUB service) without winglets so they are used on some longer routes also..
 
Bostrom
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:14 am

hilram wrote:
It is my impression SAS is using these on short "bread and butter" routes such as ARN-OSL, OSL-BGO etc. Flights ~1 hr or less. I think winglets would not help so much on such short routes. Considering the age of these frames, I suppose it is better to "cycle them out" on short routes rather than invest in them.


The -600s are probably sent where it makes most sense capacitywise, they are quite common on ARN-BRU and ARN-AMS e.g. And in any case, they will not stay in the fleet much longer.

I'm not sure if they keep the others seperated into two different subfleets, with and without winglets. But the ones without winglets are used both on shorter domestic and intra-Scandinavian routes, as well as to the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:06 pm

iRISH251 wrote:
hilram wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
SAS has some 737NGs without winglets. If planespotters.net are correct all (22) of their -600s, 11 of their -700 and 14 of their -800s lack winglets.

It is my impression SAS is using these on short "bread and butter" routes such as ARN-OSL, OSL-BGO etc. Flights ~1 hr or less.


I saw a SAS -800 (LN-RPL) at DUB yesterday (OSL-DUB service) without winglets so they are used on some longer routes also..


Bostrom wrote:
The -600s are probably sent where it makes most sense capacitywise, they are quite common on ARN-BRU and ARN-AMS e.g. And in any case, they will not stay in the fleet much longer.

I'm not sure if they keep the others seperated into two different subfleets, with and without winglets. But the ones without winglets are used both on shorter domestic and intra-Scandinavian routes, as well as to the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands.


I have seen the non-wingletted aircraft and -600s pretty far from their homes. The -600s regularly go on 2-3 hour flights to major european destinations, so it isn't a case of only using them on domestic/intra-scandinavian routes. On top of that, I don't think they even use it on flights to Copenhagen, it's always been wingletted -800s when I've seen them there.
The non-wingletted -800s I have seen very often as far abroad as the Canary islands. We are probably talking a 6 or 7-hour flight there, at least.
There just doesn't seem to be any consistent strategy for how they use the various 737s.

As for why they don't have winglets, I believe the first few hundred 737NGs differed from the rest in that the wing structure would require some pretty extensive (expensive) modifications in order to take a winglet. Since SAS was launch customer for the 737NG (together with Southwest), all of those non-wingletted planes belong in that group. Thats not to say that it can't be done, as the very first 737NG which was delivered to Southwest has winglets today, but SAS apparently decided that it wasn't worth the cost.

:smile:
 
Dardania
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:11 pm

Could the reason the 600 doesn't have winglets be because the wing provides adaquete lift, compared to adding winglets to the 700, 800 & 900 to get better lift?
 
VSMUT
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:26 pm

Dardania wrote:
Could the reason the 600 doesn't have winglets be because the wing provides adaquete lift, compared to adding winglets to the 700, 800 & 900 to get better lift?


It is entirely a matter of certification costs. Certifying winglets for a -600 would require tons of paperwork, converting a prototype, then flight testing it, then doing tons of even more paperwork. That means a tremendous cost that needs to be recuperated, and there were only 69 -600s built over which those costs can be spread. Realistically, probably less than a 3rd of those would ever have been fitted with winglets, so you need to share the cost of developing the conversion over about just 20 planes. That would have made it very expensive for either the customer or the company that develops the conversion.

BTW, Westjet did launch a winglet program for the -600 some years back, but ended up cancelling it.
 
Dominion301
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:07 pm

justplanesmart wrote:
I try to keep extensive records of both winglet and eyebrow status of the 737NG fleet, so I will share the data I have in these areas:

Lacking winglets --
All 69 737-600 aircraft, of which at least 9 have already been scrapped
148 737-700, with 14 being E-7 Wedgetail aircraft, and a further 32 having been broken up
213 737-800, 76 of which are P-8 Poseidon, and 3 parted out

Retaining eyebrows --
6 737-600 (all with EG&G)
82 737-700
120 737-800
10 737-900

These numbers are still in flux, as aircraft change operators or current operators decide to add winglets or pluck eyebrows. For example, YR-BMG was fitted with winglets last December, and two former China Southern 737-700 planes are being prepped for service with Southwest, and will certainly have winglets fitted at some point. I am often at the mercy of photographers posting photos online to keep my data updated, although I live near SEA and occasionally drive near RNT, BFI and, less frequently, PAE.


Sorry to be late to the game as I lost track of my own thread, lol. Anyhow, that is an impressive bit of information.

I know factory-installed winglets on the 737NGs is still optional. However, will it be standard on the MAX? For that matter are scimtars standard on the MAX?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:29 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
justplanesmart wrote:
I try to keep extensive records of both winglet and eyebrow status of the 737NG fleet, so I will share the data I have in these areas:

Lacking winglets --
All 69 737-600 aircraft, of which at least 9 have already been scrapped
148 737-700, with 14 being E-7 Wedgetail aircraft, and a further 32 having been broken up
213 737-800, 76 of which are P-8 Poseidon, and 3 parted out

Retaining eyebrows --
6 737-600 (all with EG&G)
82 737-700
120 737-800
10 737-900

These numbers are still in flux, as aircraft change operators or current operators decide to add winglets or pluck eyebrows. For example, YR-BMG was fitted with winglets last December, and two former China Southern 737-700 planes are being prepped for service with Southwest, and will certainly have winglets fitted at some point. I am often at the mercy of photographers posting photos online to keep my data updated, although I live near SEA and occasionally drive near RNT, BFI and, less frequently, PAE.


Sorry to be late to the game as I lost track of my own thread, lol. Anyhow, that is an impressive bit of information.

I know factory-installed winglets on the 737NGs is still optional. However, will it be standard on the MAX? For that matter are scimtars standard on the MAX?


The AT Winglet (Different from scimitars) are standard on the MAX.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 737NGs Without winglets and/or Still With Eyebrow Windows

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:19 pm

mikegigs wrote:
I don't believe -600s come with winglets. I think most-to-all of WS's -600s lack them. These days I think a 737 without them looks kind of funny. The wings seem stubby.

What's the benefit of plugging eyebrow windows? Weight?
What's the benefit of having them?


Aviation Partners never bothered to certify winglets for the 737-600 or for the 737-400.

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