PITflights
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AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:13 pm

On Wednesday 61, 125 and 175 all had multiple hour mechanical delays - on Thursday NRT delayed again for mechanical reasons

Tons of frustrated fliers in the club

Why is AA not able to run a reliable Asia operation with their 777's - what is the issue?
 
NichCage
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:40 pm

This might be unrelated, but apprently AA has been having trouble keeping the flights between DFW and HKG on time, as they were delayed. Is this an issue with the 777 itself?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:10 pm

:white: :white:

What a non-sense incorrect thread.

Both AA125 and 175 are ontime and even arriving early at their destinations!

Only AA61 had an issue and took 02:27min maintenance delay.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dcajet
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
:white: :white:

What a non-sense incorrect thread.

Both AA125 and 175 are ontime and even arriving early at their destinations!

Only AA61 had an issue and took 02:27min maintenance delay.


Don't be so quick to dismiss the thread. Those AA 772 are starting to show their age. I travel frequently on the JFK-EZE-JFK runs and mechanical delays (sometimes up to 12 hours) are not unheard of.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
jumbojet
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:41 pm

LAXintl wrote:
:white: :white:

What a non-sense incorrect thread.

Both AA125 and 175 are ontime and even arriving early at their destinations!

Only AA61 had an issue and took 02:27min maintenance delay.


for Wednesday? All were late by several hours for mechanical delays.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:45 pm

PITflights wrote:
On Wednesday 61, 125 and 175 all had multiple hour mechanical delays - on Thursday NRT delayed again for mechanical reasons

Tons of frustrated fliers in the club

Why is AA not able to run a reliable Asia operation with their 777's - what is the issue?


There were a few problems, yes. But, please offer your proof about overall reliability.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:56 am

I don't have any proof, but lots of chatter on FT about poor reliability with AA's 777s, even the 77Ws which are brand spankin new. Not sure if this is true or not but DFW-HKG used to be AA137/138, recently changed to 125/126 - many posters mentioned could be to reset the ontime stats which were horrific.
 
VC10er
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:07 am

Aren't 777's in GENERAL (if well maintained) one of the most reliable birds there are? (NOTE: THIS IS NOT A BOEING FAN BOY COMMENT, I AM NEUTRAL).
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:10 am

It should be noted that many of the AA 772s have already been through three D checks and are getting up there in age and hours. Older planes get harder to maintain.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dptpa
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:11 am

9w748capt wrote:
I don't have any proof, but lots of chatter on FT about poor reliability with AA's 777s, even the 77Ws which are brand spankin new. Not sure if this is true or not but DFW-HKG used to be AA137/138, recently changed to 125/126 - many posters mentioned could be to reset the ontime stats which were horrific.


One of the reasons for the chronic delays on the HKG flights was that many pilots did not (or still don't) have Chinese Visas in case of a need for diversion.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... ng-delays/
 
grbauc
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:15 am

PITflights wrote:
On Wednesday 61, 125 and 175 all had multiple hour mechanical delays - on Thursday NRT delayed again for mechanical reasons

Tons of frustrated fliers in the club

Why is AA not able to run a reliable Asia operation with their 777's - what is the issue?


What other information do you have the AA's 777 are not reliable? From my view point ive had no problem on my several 777 flights this year and many flights last year.
 
PITflights
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:16 am

Just look at Wednesday all three were very late then Thursday flight 61 was late as well
 
B747forever
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:17 am

If the aircraft that does DFW-HKG has a long layover before the return, a explanation for constant delays on the route could be that AA intentionally swap delayed aircraft to that route because the return would any way be on time. Instead of delaying a route with shorter turn around time they can swap planes around and put it on DFW-HKG or other routes were the aircraft sits for hours before returning.
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grbauc
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:18 am

9w748capt wrote:
I don't have any proof, but lots of chatter on FT about poor reliability with AA's 777s, even the 77Ws which are brand spankin new. Not sure if this is true or not but DFW-HKG used to be AA137/138, recently changed to 125/126 - many posters mentioned could be to reset the ontime stats which were horrific.


Flyertalk is great but its has to be taken with a grain of salt. We see things through a straw and you might be right but your's and my small sample in no way give a correct picture. They can be clues along with other evidence.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:26 am

No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.
Whatever
 
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N62NA
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:36 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


They supposedly are refurbishing the remaining 3 class 772s. Supposedly.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:40 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


The oldest 77E in the fleet, N770AN, is approaching 20 years old. By 2020-2022, a replacement will need to be in the order books, and I believe once AA gets a few years out of the A350-900, that's what they will select to replace the 777-200ERs. I also wouldn't rule out the A350-1000 and 777-9 either.

I don't think it's worth doing a major refit for the entire fleet at this point.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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zeke
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:59 am

dptpa wrote:
One of the reasons for the chronic delays on the HKG flights was that many pilots did not (or still don't) have Chinese Visas in case of a need for diversion.


It is a b/s reason, you don't need a visa to divert. A visa would be required for crew to travel into mainland China to pickup an aircraft that had diverted and the other crew had expired duty times. You can divert into mainland China regas and go without a visa. They will take the crews passports and stamp them without needing to go via immigration.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
elisrosa80
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:02 am

Not only the 777s, but also the new 789s. I was delayed last week on AA962 GRU-DFW given that the flight controls "wouldn't respond" to the pilot's commands.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:09 am

Seeing how the 777 has established a sterling reputation for dispatch reliability, if AA is having problems with them it is either because of their age or because AA is not doing as well as other carriers. If the comments by members indicating that the brand new 77Ws and 789s are also affected then it is clearly the latter.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
milemaster
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:45 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


Sounds like your description of terminal C in the other two DFW threads in respect to the TRIP program. You have some high standards or have not traveled the world much.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:48 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
It should be noted that many of the AA 772s have already been through three D checks and are getting up there in age and hours. Older planes get harder to maintain.

The oldest one only has 72000 hours on it. That's pretty low annual utilization for a long haul widebody. At the rate of some other airlines she would be closing in on 100k by now.
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dcajet
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:05 am

Spacepope wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
It should be noted that many of the AA 772s have already been through three D checks and are getting up there in age and hours. Older planes get harder to maintain.

The oldest one only has 72000 hours on it. That's pretty low annual utilization for a long haul widebody. At the rate of some other airlines she would be closing in on 100k by now.


But those airlines, like Lufthansa, for instance; keep them in tip top shape, especially the interiors, which at the end of the day is what the customer sees. Add to that the not so rare mechanical delays and well, there you have it. The AA 772s that go to EZE and GRU have seen better days, low hour frames or not. They need some TLC.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:40 am

AA's new 777s are great, but the older ones are .... horrible. I also think that they badly need quiet, modern planes such as the A350s, or if the demand justifies it, A380s.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:03 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
AA's new 777s are great, but the older ones are .... horrible. I also think that they badly need quiet, modern planes such as the A350s, or if the demand justifies it, A380s.


They are. Deliveries of the A350-900 should begin in late 2018.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
hagela
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:02 am

AA should be done the B772 interior retrofit by the end of the year. Most will be the B/E seats shown in this article: http://thepointsguy.com/2016/11/new-american-airlines-777-200-retrofit-tour/
 
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garpd
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:24 am

The 777 has a sterling record for reliability. If AA is having issues, they should look at their maintenance schedule and practices.

I had a long delay on AA50 in September last year. I had arrived at DFW 5 hours earlier and the plane was sat there for 4 hours with no one doing anything to it. The plane failed radio checks and was taken out of service. They only did these checks 25 minutes before scheduled boarding. They could have been done in plenty time beforehand. This resulted in us being put onto the neighbouring 777 which had a different seat configuration, meaning I lost my paid for J seat to someone who upgraded from Y before the delay was announced. and got stuck right at the back of Y. Was not pleased.

So, I would not be surprised with AA MX procedures are causing the reliability issues.

I will be avoiding flying AA from now on, mainly because of me losing my seat to a freeloader. But the passenger seating policy is for a different thread.
Last edited by garpd on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tedd
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:38 am

jfk777 wrote:
could it be those Trent RR engines on the 777-200ER flies to Japan with ?


Don`t hold back......please avail us the problems of AA Trent`s.
 
commavia
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:56 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.


I'm not sure I'd call the 3-class 772s I've been on recently "disgusting," but I'd certainly agree that they're "long in the tooth" and showing their age. Happily, I was pleasantly surprised recently when I did my first flight - in Y - on a refurbished 772 on a Europe longhaul. Unlike the 767s, AA spent the money to redo the entire airplane and, from my experience, redo it right. The cabin and IFE looked good and seats were comfortable - I commented to somebody that it was actually one of the best longhaul Y flights I'd ever done.

N62NA wrote:
They supposedly are refurbishing the remaining 3 class 772s. Supposedly.


I'm confused as to why "supposedly" is necessary.

Unless something has changed in the last month, AA's own CFO was fairly definitive (emphasis mine):

"...completion of the 777-200 retrofit program in the second quarter..."

"...we are in the final stages of the conversion of our 777-200 and having lie flat seats for all of our international widebody service."


So it seems pretty clear to me that AA is, indeed, refurbishing all of the remaining 772s - 14 aircraft, per the excellent American Fleet Site. On the basis of purely product consistency and operational/schedule flexibility, it's hard to imagine AA reconfiguring 2/3 of its 772 fleet and leaving just 14 in a non-standard configuration.

Boeing778X wrote:
I don't think it's worth doing a major refit for the entire fleet at this point.


And yet AA - the airline that raised the "cheap refurb" to a high art form on the 767 - is doing the "major retrofit" on the entire 772 fleet, so clearly AA does think it's worth it. I think a big part of the reason why is that these 772 retrofits, while costly, also do materially improve the economics of these 772 assets going forward - in terms of both revenue and cost. AA's 772 J cabins were clearly no longer globally competitive, and so modernizing them will likely helping with pricing (i.e. revenue generation) in the premium cabin. In addition, the overall reconfiguration of the plane to a higher-density cabin with no F, more Y and MCE also lower unit cost. Even if these planes are only around for another five years - and I suspect most will be around longer - it isn't hard to see how AA made the math work to justify these investments.

Spacepope wrote:
The oldest one only has 72000 hours on it. That's pretty low annual utilization for a long haul widebody. At the rate of some other airlines she would be closing in on 100k by now.


Indeed. In terms of hours if not also cycles, AA has traditionally never utilized its 777s as intensively as some other airlines. Again - I suspect AA's 777s (maybe not all 47, but many) will be around for quite some time.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:14 pm

UA's dispatch rate at AKL with 777-200s of similar vintage is far far porrer than when they operated 788/789s. It is an age thing, Just like humans, You can't maintain physically what you were doing when you were 20 at age 70. As they age they need more frequent and more lengthy maintenance checks which leaves them short from time to time if they are not winding back their untilisation any. It will be true of most airlines which have 20 year old 777s..
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:23 pm

I don't have any stats handy, but I fly through LAX every week and can vouch that NRT, PVG, HKG and SYD are often delayed for hours (so are AKL and HND, although those are operated by the 787.) Not out of the ordinary to see those flights delayed anywhere from 4 to 10 hours. I myself took an 18-hour maintenance delay on LAX-NRT last year.

Blame it on pilot visas, "W" aircraft patterns, gate availability or whatever you'd like, but the Asia flights seem to have reliability issues, particularly from LAX.
 
OB1504
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:32 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


That's exactly what they're in the process of doing.

Boeing778X wrote:
The oldest 77E in the fleet, N770AN, is approaching 20 years old. By 2020-2022, a replacement will need to be in the order books, and I believe once AA gets a few years out of the A350-900, that's what they will select to replace the 777-200ERs. I also wouldn't rule out the A350-1000 and 777-9 either.

I don't think it's worth doing a major refit for the entire fleet at this point.


On the contrary, aircraft 7AA (N770AN) received the new cabin within the past year or so. You really can't tell the age of the aircraft by the cabin alone on the retrofitted birds.

elisrosa80 wrote:
Not only the 777s, but also the new 789s. I was delayed last week on AA962 GRU-DFW given that the flight controls "wouldn't respond" to the pilot's commands.


Teething issues are common for relatively new fleet types, though.

milemaster wrote:
Sounds like your description of terminal C in the other two DFW threads in respect to the TRIP program. You have some high standards or have not traveled the world much.


Having recently flown on a 3-class 77A, I can say that it's at least very disappointing that this is the product that AA chooses to compete with in 2017. The same is true of the Y cabin on their 767 fleet.

garpd wrote:
So, I would not be surprised with AA MX procedures are causing the reliability issues.


I recall reading that one of the reasons for the issues was the mechanics' discontent with the heavy maintenance for the 777 fleet being outsourced to Hong Kong.
 
wn676
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:11 pm

N62NA wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


They supposedly are refurbishing the remaining 3 class 772s. Supposedly.


There are 3 in HKG undergoing the refurb as we speak, so it is definitely happening and has been for a while. There are 12 remaining in the 3-class configuration.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
zrh177
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:35 pm

Makes me laugh. Mid-July of this past summer, I was on my way to my grandmother's funeral MIA-CDG. Just when I had a "can things get any worse" thought, the pilots came over the PA to announce that the plane (AA 77E) had a navigational instrument issue. Took two hours for them to resolve it.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:35 pm

dptpa wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I don't have any proof, but lots of chatter on FT about poor reliability with AA's 777s, even the 77Ws which are brand spankin new. Not sure if this is true or not but DFW-HKG used to be AA137/138, recently changed to 125/126 - many posters mentioned could be to reset the ontime stats which were horrific.


One of the reasons for the chronic delays on the HKG flights was that many pilots did not (or still don't) have Chinese Visas in case of a need for diversion.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... ng-delays/


...and considering that HKG is scissored in as DFW-HKG-LAX-HKG-DFW, I can see how one delay would ripple through the legs. To be honest - it always impressed me how efficiently AA used the aircraft, in this way - that said - thank you for demonstrating how fragile one part of the process can be, and how that affects the whole operation. It added some needed perspective to temper my impression.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:35 pm

commavia wrote:

Spacepope wrote:
The oldest one only has 72000 hours on it. That's pretty low annual utilization for a long haul widebody. At the rate of some other airlines she would be closing in on 100k by now.


Indeed. In terms of hours if not also cycles, AA has traditionally never utilized its 777s as intensively as some other airlines. Again - I suspect AA's 777s (maybe not all 47, but many) will be around for quite some time.


Yep, the oldest airframe still has fewer than 10,000 cycles on it. 7 hours per cycle is kinda low, and lots of sitting on the ground time.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
No idea on operational or technical delays, but I flew a 772 last month from DFW-LAX and I gotta tell you, it was certainly long in the tooth. Quite shabby and pretty disgusting, honestly.

They need to rip out the entire interior and start over.


The oldest 77E in the fleet, N770AN, is approaching 20 years old. By 2020-2022, a replacement will need to be in the order books, and I believe once AA gets a few years out of the A350-900, that's what they will select to replace the 777-200ERs. I also wouldn't rule out the A350-1000 and 777-9 either.

I don't think it's worth doing a major refit for the entire fleet at this point.


Unless of course, you desire to keep the paying passengers and dont want them to walk to your competitors.
 
ckfred
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Last March, I was supposed to fly on a 772 from ORD to MIA. The day before my flight, I got word that my flight was cancelled. I later found out that another 772 scheduled to fly to China the next day had gone tech, and the plane that was supposed to work ORD-MIA was swapped.

But, back in 2009, I was supposed to fly DFW-ORD on the afternoon 772. According to a friend of mine who flies for AA, the aircraft that flew DFW-ORD often came out of the hanger after scheduled maintenance, flew to ORD, and then onto LHR.

I watched the 772 being towed into the gate at Terminal D. But, after boarding started, an announcement came that the flight would be delayed 40 minutes, because Maintenance forgot to install a software upgrade.

So, about 45 minutes late, we pushed back. The tug disengaged, and the aircraft started to taxi. Before we had gone more than a couple hundred feet, we stopped. The captain announced that there was a hydraulic problem, and that we would return to the gate.

After about 2 hours, the captain announced that the a/c had quit, and the repair of the hydraulic system did not solve the problem. So, it was everybody and all of the baggage, cargo, and mail off of the airplane and onto a 772 that had just arrived from LHR. Our 3pm arrival at ORD wound up being a 7pm arrival.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: AA continues to struggle with operational reliability with 777

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:54 pm

9w748capt wrote:
I don't have any proof, but lots of chatter on FT about poor reliability with AA's 777s, even the 77Ws which are brand spankin new. Not sure if this is true or not but DFW-HKG used to be AA137/138, recently changed to 125/126 - many posters mentioned could be to reset the ontime stats which were horrific.


B747forever wrote:
If the aircraft that does DFW-HKG has a long layover before the return, a explanation for constant delays on the route could be that AA intentionally swap delayed aircraft to that route because the return would any way be on time. Instead of delaying a route with shorter turn around time they can swap planes around and put it on DFW-HKG or other routes were the aircraft sits for hours before returning.


Not at all disputing what either of you are saying, but do we have a time-frame as to when the changes (and thus, the downtime at HKG) became effective?

Looking at one example;
AA 125 (DFW-HKG) will arrive at 17:35HKT, be serviced/turned and depart at 19:35HKT to LAX as AA 192 ; 2 hours of downtime.
AA 192 (HKG-LAX) will arrive at 16:35PST, and will sit at LAX until 00:35PST, departing to HGK as AA 193; 8 hours of downtime.
AA 193 (LAX-HKG) will arrive at 08:10HKT, and will sit at HKG until 15:45HKT, departing to DFW as AA 126; 7 hours 35 mins of downtime.

So, in order to understand it better - you're saying that AA is using that last gap (7 odd hours) as the buffer - because regardless of what time it arrives (within the reasonable window) - has enough 'down-time' to recover? Again, it just fascinates me - so any constructive corrections would be appreciated if I am incorrect.

What was the schedule like before? Too tight?

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