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davescj
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QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:57 am

I saw that QF 12 flies JFK- LAX-SYD. (Side note: this is being flown today -2/25/2017) as a 744 flight aircraft is VH-OEI).

Is this a change from US policy? I thought non-US flag carries could not fly domestic routes? Or can they only pick up people with a final destination overseas (essentially JFK - SYD, or SYD-LAX, or SYD-JFK)?

I presume that when flying SYD-LAX-JFK the customs/immigration is at LAX?

How does this end up being crewed? Separate crews for the JFK and the SYD legs?

Thanks for the answers and wisdom!

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:02 am

Qantas flies JFK-LAX where people can connect to other Qantas flights to Australia (i.e., Melbourne or Brisbane), but Qantas, because of cabotage rules, cannot sell solely a JFK-LAX ticket in either direction. This is because the forward direction uses an A380 and Terminal 7 at JFK cannot handle an A380. On this, I'm surprised that Air Canada (from Newark) doesn't go after Qantas' customers, using the 787 as a selling point.
 
910A
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:03 am

This is nothing new. Back in the day, (1978-1985) QF3/4 were domestic flights like QF12 between HNL-SFO. This allowed Aussies to stop over in HNL going either way. We did not clear immigration until we arrived in SFO. Americans traveling from OZ were kept in a sterile area at HNL for a couple of hours until the flight was ready to depart. In 1984 there was a mini hub with QF flights to YVR, LAX, and SFO this lasted as long as the CNS flights operated.
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:08 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Qantas flies JFK-LAX where people can connect to other Qantas flights to Australia (i.e., Melbourne or Brisbane), but Qantas, because of cabotage rules, cannot sell solely a JFK-LAX ticket in either direction. This is because the forward direction uses an A380 and Terminal 7 at JFK cannot handle an A380. On this, I'm surprised that Air Canada (from Newark) doesn't go after Qantas' customers, using the 787 as a selling point.


I think the EWR-YVR 789 continues on to BNE (though with a different flight number) too. But there would be a lot of Australian travellers going to NYC who wouldn't know what EWR is and may not be comfortable flying there. AC can't say they have a direct EWR-BNE (or SYD) flight like they can for YYZ-SYD.

Also someone can board in SYD and get one boarding pass that says SYD-JFK, QF11, so they know they are going to New York, albeit with a change of aircraft. Even though the aircraft's flight is BNE-JFK.
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:17 am

davescj wrote:
I saw that QF 12 flies JFK- LAX-SYD. (Side note: this is being flown today -2/25/2017) as a 744 flight aircraft is VH-OEI).

Is this a change from US policy? I thought non-US flag carries could not fly domestic routes? Or can they only pick up people with a final destination overseas (essentially JFK - SYD, or SYD-LAX, or SYD-JFK)?

I presume that when flying SYD-LAX-JFK the customs/immigration is at LAX?

How does this end up being crewed? Separate crews for the JFK and the SYD legs?

Thanks for the answers and wisdom!

Dave


As mentioned, due to cabotage this isn't technically a domestic US flight. It's a continuation of a direct flight. QF11 is SYD-LAX (A380)-JFK (744, which is the QF15 aircraft). Bags are tagged to JFK (or SYD/BNE/MEL) and pax do inbound and outbound customs/immigration at JFK. There are seperate crews for each leg. Crew does BNE-LAX, overnights, LAX-JFK, overnights, back to LAX, overnights, goes on to BNE.

A few years ago LAX-JFK-LAX was QF107/108 which was operated by an A332 which did MEL-AKL (QF25)-LAX-JFK (QF107) and return. With QF107/108 SYD-LAX a 744. QF11/12 was also a 744 but was the later flight (which is now QF17/18). QF107/108 is now SYD-PEK-SYD.
 
MrBretz
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:32 am

Is my recollection foggy or what? In the mid to late 80s, I flew from LAX to HNL. I stopped there for a 3 or 4 days. I recall that vividly. Then I did HNL to Brisbane, Brisbane to SYD, then to Christchurch, and back to LAX all on Qantas. Did that violate cabotage rules? Oh, I am a USA citizen.
 
anrec80
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:01 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Qantas flies JFK-LAX where people can connect to other Qantas flights to Australia (i.e., Melbourne or Brisbane), but Qantas, because of cabotage rules, cannot sell solely a JFK-LAX ticket in either direction. This is because the forward direction uses an A380 and Terminal 7 at JFK cannot handle an A380. On this, I'm surprised that Air Canada (from Newark) doesn't go after Qantas' customers, using the 787 as a selling point.


What to sell there? 787 on 6 hour hop followed by 3-4-3 77L/77W for 14-15 hours?
 
Gemuser
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:34 am

MrBretz wrote:
Is my recollection foggy or what? In the mid to late 80s, I flew from LAX to HNL. I stopped there for a 3 or 4 days. I recall that vividly. Then I did HNL to Brisbane, Brisbane to SYD, then to Christchurch, and back to LAX all on Qantas. Did that violate cabotage rules? Oh, I am a USA citizen.

No problem with the cabotage rules as you were ticketed "beyond" HNL when you left LAX & returned from "beyond" to LAX.

Gemuser
 
flyinghighboy
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:58 am

BNEFlyer wrote:
davescj wrote:
I saw that QF 12 flies JFK- LAX-SYD. (Side note: this is being flown today -2/25/2017) as a 744 flight aircraft is VH-OEI).

Is this a change from US policy? I thought non-US flag carries could not fly domestic routes? Or can they only pick up people with a final destination overseas (essentially JFK - SYD, or SYD-LAX, or SYD-JFK)?

I presume that when flying SYD-LAX-JFK the customs/immigration is at LAX?

How does this end up being crewed? Separate crews for the JFK and the SYD legs?

Thanks for the answers and wisdom!

Dave


As mentioned, due to cabotage this isn't technically a domestic US flight. It's a continuation of a direct flight. QF11 is SYD-LAX (A380)-JFK (744, which is the QF15 aircraft). Bags are tagged to JFK (or SYD/BNE/MEL) and pax do inbound and outbound customs/immigration at JFK. There are seperate crews for each leg. Crew does BNE-LAX, overnights, LAX-JFK, overnights, back to LAX, overnights, goes on to BNE.

A few years ago LAX-JFK-LAX was QF107/108 which was operated by an A332 which did MEL-AKL (QF25)-LAX-JFK (QF107) and return. With QF107/108 SYD-LAX a 744. QF11/12 was also a 744 but was the later flight (which is now QF17/18). QF107/108 is now SYD-PEK-SYD.



Unless something has changed recently, immigration is done at LAX on arrival from QF11, collect bag, drop off, clear security and wait for the next leg.
 
skywaymanaz
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:04 am

Qantas has operated this flight for a long time. I remember seeing it from Sedona, AZ in the 80's when I was in college and spotted it with some binoculars after noticing a quad jet contrail. I think the appeal is also one boarding pass for JFK-MEL change planes at LAX as well as JFK-SYD. United until recently used to fly SYD-MEL. One boarding pass SFO-MEL or LAX-MEL change planes at SYD but no local traffic rights. Back in the day before the 747-400 or the collapse of the Soviet Union there were many foreign carriers operating passenger flights JFK-ANC-onward to Asia. KE 007 flew JFK-ANC before being shot down. Alaska Airlines posters for Anchorage used to feature the international terminal with all the foreign flag carriers tails.
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:04 am

There's only one boarding pass for QF11/12 because those flights are SYD-JFK-SYD. If a passenger is beginning or ending their journey in MEL or BNE, they get one BP for QF15/16 or 93/94 and another for 11/12.
 
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XAM2175
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:08 am

skywaymanaz wrote:
=I think the appeal is also one boarding pass for JFK-MEL change planes at LAX as well as JFK-SYD


Unless QF have changed their policy very recently that would be issued as two boarding passes.
 
UAinAUS
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:24 am

Definitely two boarding passes. Same with United when they operated the SYD-MEL tag flight, always two boarding passes.
 
qf002
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:11 pm

skywaymanaz wrote:
Qantas has operated this flight for a long time. I remember seeing it from Sedona, AZ in the 80's when I was in college and spotted it with some binoculars after noticing a quad jet contrail.


No they haven't, the current service only started in October 1999 and followed several decades without JFK service. I'm not sure exactly when the services ended but I have a 1975 timetable that shows TWA connections through SFO to JFK and several others from the 80s and 90s that show various connections with TWA, AA and UA through SFO and later LAX.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:21 pm

This has been discussed multiple times on this forum. The QF 11/12 (LAX-JFK-LAX) cannot carry local passengers, meaning anyone booked on the LAX-JFK flight will have to have travelled on the MEL/SYD/BNE flights into LAX. You clear US customs and immigration at TBIT and then re-board the 747 (it's usually the BNE aircraft, although QF operate a 747 a few times a week on one of their MEL-LAX flights) and once aboard the JFK flight, you're on a domestic service, meaning when you land at JFK, you don't go back through customs. You get two boarding passes when you check in for your flight originating in Australia. One to LAX and one from LAX to JFK.
 
DexSwart
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:33 pm

I am in NY currently and caught this flight on Saturday.

Yout get two boarding passes. after arriving from MEL (in my case) OneWorld greeters wait at the arrival gate and give you an Express Connection leaflet, you then get ushered through customs and immigration.

After you clear the above, you have to go back through TSA at TBIT then re-board the 744 that came from BNE, which then is classified as a do,estimate flight.

At JFK you simply grab your bag and walk out as per usual.

On a side note, that flight lands at around 4-4:30 so by the time you get to your hotel you can have a meal and sleep, which is really pleasant if you're flying Y all the way from Australia.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
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cathay747
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:03 pm

MrBretz wrote:
Is my recollection foggy or what? In the mid to late 80s, I flew from LAX to HNL. I stopped there for a 3 or 4 days. I recall that vividly. Then I did HNL to Brisbane, Brisbane to SYD, then to Christchurch, and back to LAX all on Qantas. Did that violate cabotage rules? Oh, I am a USA citizen.


No it didn't violate cabotage rules, and your citizenship has nothing to do with it. It actually has to do with the "citizenship" of the airline.

All QF U.S. domestic sectors, whether operated with their own metal or on AA-operated code-shares, can carry what is known as "conditional stopover traffic". You can only be booked & ticketed on QF for, say, JFK-LAX (or DCA-DFW or IAD-LAX) if you are also booked & ticketed on a QF international flight from LAX (or DFW or wherever) to a point outside the U.S. You may either connect at the gateway or take a stopover if you wish for as long as you like.

Only non-revenue pax on a free ticket (and this means industry pass-riders, it does NOT include FF free tickets!) may fly solely domestic as cabotage traffic; I did so back in 1978 on the old QF004/003 SFO/HNL/SFO.

Same rules applied in reverse to UA when they operated their old SYD/BNE/SYD tag. And even further back in history when BOAC operated their old LHR-JFK-SFO-HNL-TYO route.
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PI4EVER
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:07 pm

JFK has been on the route map of QF since the 60's. It may have been suspended for a period of time in the 80's or so, but I flew a QF 707 from JFK
to SFO, HNL and NAN in August 1970, with the aircraft terminating ultimately in SYD or MEL. It originated in LHR.
The return routed the same way and included a night stop with hotel and meals in SFO, with the flight continuing the following morning to JFK and on to
LHR.
I do not remember flight numbers, but I do remember that the Captain was named Cook. Appropriate that Captain Cook was flying us to the South Pacific.
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ClassicLover
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:19 pm

PI4EVER wrote:
JFK has been on the route map of QF since the 60's. It may have been suspended for a period of time in the 80's or so, but I flew a QF 707 from JFK
to SFO, HNL and NAN in August 1970, with the aircraft terminating ultimately in SYD or MEL. It originated in LHR.


Even earlier actually, Qantas was the 3rd airline with jets across the Atlantic in 1959 after Pan Am and BOAC. SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-IDL-LHR and back. Aircraft also went the other way, SYD through Asia to London.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
qf002
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:45 pm

PI4EVER wrote:
It may have been suspended for a period of time in the 80's or so


I have just found the original press release from 1999, JFK service was suspended in 1973 and did not return until 1999.
 
smi0006
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:08 pm

I have an odd feeling speaking to family - cabin crew do BNE-LAX are BNE based, with LAX-JFK SYD or sometimes BNE based with AKL crew mixed in too. So not the same crew who operate all the way through with a layover.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:14 pm

AKL crew? For a B744? I could understand AKL crew back when the tag was operated by the A330 from the AKL-LAX flight, but not now with the B744 back and no AKL-LAX service...
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:18 am

By AKL crew I think he means JetConnect Long Haul, which is still a base even though QF no longer fly long haul routes from New Zealand. They dead head from AKL to Australia. Goodness alone knows why this makes sense for Qantas!

The flight attendants for the JFK tag are usually BNE based, but do sometimes come in from SYD or MEL. Don't forget that the QAAC (A380) flight attendants can't fly a 747 and vice-versa, which is why it is normally BNE base. Pilots are of course all SYD based.
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smi0006
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:19 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
By AKL crew I think he means JetConnect Long Haul, which is still a base even though QF no longer fly long haul routes from New Zealand. They dead head from AKL to Australia. Goodness alone knows why this makes sense for Qantas!

The flight attendants for the JFK tag are usually BNE based, but do sometimes come in from SYD or MEL. Don't forget that the QAAC (A380) flight attendants can't fly a 747 and vice-versa, which is why it is normally BNE base. Pilots are of course all SYD based.


Jetconnect crew I believe are now 737 (except CSM who do Tasman only) trained also; along with 330, 744 and maybe 380? Not sure. They are mixed onboard with sometimes 8 crew being AKL based. Some supper long 12-15 day trips for them. QF is very fluid with crew with SYD crew doing SYD-SIN-MEL-SIN-SYD trips, along with MEL and BNE crew one various other routes and patterns.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:38 am

I didn't realise that all JetConnect crew were now 737 qualified, that makes much more sense!

I agree that QF run some very long, and quite frankly absurd, scheduling patterns especially through Asia but in the case of LAX the fact that most SYD/MEL sectors are crewed by QAAC neccesitates the JFK leg been most often crewed ex-BNE
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XAM2175
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:52 am

cathay747 wrote:
Only non-revenue pax on a free ticket (and this means industry pass-riders, it does NOT include FF free tickets!) may fly solely domestic as cabotage traffic; I did so back in 1978 on the old QF004/003 SFO/HNL/SFO.


My understanding now is that QF doesn't even permit industry pass passengers to fly LAX-JFK as domestic passengers. Several people have reported having their tickets cancelled on them, some at very short notice (suggesting manual intervention).
 
747m8te
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:15 am

BNEFlyer wrote:
davescj wrote:
I saw that QF 12 flies JFK- LAX-SYD. (Side note: this is being flown today -2/25/2017) as a 744 flight aircraft is VH-OEI).

Is this a change from US policy? I thought non-US flag carries could not fly domestic routes? Or can they only pick up people with a final destination overseas (essentially JFK - SYD, or SYD-LAX, or SYD-JFK)?

I presume that when flying SYD-LAX-JFK the customs/immigration is at LAX?

How does this end up being crewed? Separate crews for the JFK and the SYD legs?

Thanks for the answers and wisdom!

Dave


As mentioned, due to cabotage this isn't technically a domestic US flight. It's a continuation of a direct flight. QF11 is SYD-LAX (A380)-JFK (744, which is the QF15 aircraft). Bags are tagged to JFK (or SYD/BNE/MEL) and pax do inbound and outbound customs/immigration at JFK. There are seperate crews for each leg. Crew does BNE-LAX, overnights, LAX-JFK, overnights, back to LAX, overnights, goes on to BNE.

A few years ago LAX-JFK-LAX was QF107/108 which was operated by an A332 which did MEL-AKL (QF25)-LAX-JFK (QF107) and return. With QF107/108 SYD-LAX a 744. QF11/12 was also a 744 but was the later flight (which is now QF17/18). QF107/108 is now SYD-PEK-SYD.


Slight correction, customs/immigration is actually done in LAX. So LAX-JFK/JFK-LAX technically operates as a domestic flight, just QF don't have the rights to sell it as a domestic sector independently of an international connection to/from Australia on Qantas. Also, you don't have to be connecting onto/from an international service with Qantas that day, it just has to be sold as part of a ticket through to/from Australia on Qantas, for example, you could book QF15 BNE-LAX, have a few days in LA then fly QF11 LAX-JFK a few days later, again as long as it is ticketed to/from a Qantas international flight to/from Australia.
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BNEFlyer
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:54 am

747m8te wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:
davescj wrote:
I saw that QF 12 flies JFK- LAX-SYD. (Side note: this is being flown today -2/25/2017) as a 744 flight aircraft is VH-OEI).

Is this a change from US policy? I thought non-US flag carries could not fly domestic routes? Or can they only pick up people with a final destination overseas (essentially JFK - SYD, or SYD-LAX, or SYD-JFK)?

I presume that when flying SYD-LAX-JFK the customs/immigration is at LAX?

How does this end up being crewed? Separate crews for the JFK and the SYD legs?

Thanks for the answers and wisdom!

Dave


As mentioned, due to cabotage this isn't technically a domestic US flight. It's a continuation of a direct flight. QF11 is SYD-LAX (A380)-JFK (744, which is the QF15 aircraft). Bags are tagged to JFK (or SYD/BNE/MEL) and pax do inbound and outbound customs/immigration at JFK. There are seperate crews for each leg. Crew does BNE-LAX, overnights, LAX-JFK, overnights, back to LAX, overnights, goes on to BNE.

A few years ago LAX-JFK-LAX was QF107/108 which was operated by an A332 which did MEL-AKL (QF25)-LAX-JFK (QF107) and return. With QF107/108 SYD-LAX a 744. QF11/12 was also a 744 but was the later flight (which is now QF17/18). QF107/108 is now SYD-PEK-SYD.


Slight correction, customs/immigration is actually done in LAX. So LAX-JFK/JFK-LAX technically operates as a domestic flight, just QF don't have the rights to sell it as a domestic sector independently of an international connection to/from Australia on Qantas. Also, you don't have to be connecting onto/from an international service with Qantas that day, it just has to be sold as part of a ticket through to/from Australia on Qantas, for example, you could book QF15 BNE-LAX, have a few days in LA then fly QF11 LAX-JFK a few days later, again as long as it is ticketed to/from a Qantas international flight to/from Australia.


My mistake re: customs/immi. And while 11/12 operates domestically, it is part of an international flight. And I know pax from 15/93 can take the flight, the flight itself if SYD-(LAX)-JFK.
 
konkret
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:11 am

Is Qantas allowed to sell tickets for the JFK-LAX sector to a passenger continuing his journey on an international flight on a different airline (e.g. Cathay LAX to HKG)?
 
qf002
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:27 am

konkret wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to sell tickets for the JFK-LAX sector to a passenger continuing his journey on an international flight on a different airline (e.g. Cathay LAX to HKG)?


In theory, yes.

In practice though they don't though because they are ultimately responsible for any breaches which could potentially put their traffic rights at risk (not to mention huge fines, legal proceedings etc).
 
747m8te
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:28 am

konkret wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to sell tickets for the JFK-LAX sector to a passenger continuing his journey on an international flight on a different airline (e.g. Cathay LAX to HKG)?


No Qantas flights only for this service.
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Gemuser
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:32 am

QF002 is correct, they can but choose not to for the reasons he stated.

Gemuser
 
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vhqpa
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:17 am

konkret wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to sell tickets for the JFK-LAX sector to a passenger continuing his journey on an international flight on a different airline (e.g. Cathay LAX to HKG)?


I remember a while ago someone on this site booked JFK-LAX-HKG QF/CX as part of a oneworld RTW ticket. In the weeks leading up to the flight Qantas actually took them off the flight and rebooked them on a AA flight.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:21 am

qf002 wrote:
konkret wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to sell tickets for the JFK-LAX sector to a passenger continuing his journey on an international flight on a different airline (e.g. Cathay LAX to HKG)?


In theory, yes.

In practice though they don't though because they are ultimately responsible for any breaches which could potentially put their traffic rights at risk (not to mention huge fines, legal proceedings etc).


Brilliant answer, and to add - there is also the matter of AA, and their hubs at both JFK and LAX. In reality, I could see AA offering a much more attractive offer to any/all OneWorld members that would require the assistance (as they can operate at higher frequencies, and lower costs).

Here's an interesting thought - had AA and QF been granted JV/ATI, I wonder if the 744 to JFK would have remained much longer? Is there enough of a premium to justify it, especially when AA's hard and soft product has matured significantly? I mean, what can QF offer on their 744, that AA does not match in their A321T? As is, what is preventing QF from going that route?

In future, as the 744s are replaced - will the 789 take the spot for this route?
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:38 am

Firstly there is no way that an A321 with 120 seats is "lower cost" than a 747. QF could probably run at 50% load factor and still have lower costs per enplaned passenger than AA. The CASM of the AA 321T is horrendous.

As to your second question, the simple answer is that AA cannot accomodate the increased passenger numbers. AA would need to add roughly 2 additional A321 flights to accomodate the passengers currently flying QF. That is simply unrealistic. Presumably they could upgauge a few flights to 777/77W to accomodate the additional passengers but again they are limited by the number of frames, and why bother when QF can profitably do it themselves using an aircraft that would otherwise sit on the ground for 14 hours.
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cathay747
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:42 pm

Gemuser wrote:
QF002 is correct, they can but choose not to for the reasons he stated.

Gemuser


It all depends on the specifics of the bilateral between the countries in question. As per ICAO...the "Freedoms of the Air"...

Seventh Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State, of transporting traffic between the territory of the granting State and any third State with no requirement to include on such operation any point in the territory of the recipient State, i.e the service need not connect to or be an extension of any service to/from the home State of the carrier.

Eighth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State (also known as a Eighth Freedom Right or "consecutive cabotage").

In the Amadeus GDS, when you display flight information (DO entry) it is spelled out quite nicely; I am on holiday right now so I can't look it up, but if memory serves, ALL QF U.S. domestic sectors, whether the LAX/JFK/LAX on their own metal or the AA-operated code-shares, state "INTL ONLINE CONNECTING/STOPOVER TRAFFIC" and this would be they key; it renders it an 8th freedom operation. So in theory yes, as stated above, but only if the U.S. has given Australia 7th freedom rights, which I am doubting. Does anybody have access to Amadeus to verify?
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Polot
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:59 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Firstly there is no way that an A321 with 120 seats is "lower cost" than a 747. QF could probably run at 50% load factor and still have lower costs per enplaned passenger than AA. The CASM of the AA 321T is horrendous.

The A321 probably is lower cost than a 747. Operating a 747 is not cheap. Now the costs per a seat might be lower for the 747, but that is dependent on actually filling all the seats. I doubt QF's 747 at 50% load factor on the route would have lower costs per a passenger than AA's A321T.
 
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:27 pm

I've never understood the point of having one continuous flight number with a change of aircraft. Is there any difference to the passenger? Or would a SYD-LAX-JFK passenger have exactly the same experience if QF 11/12 was the number for BNE-LAX-JFK-LAX-BNE instead?
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF 12- domestic US

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:02 pm

At one point it was QF15/16 BNE-JFK, but that only lasted about 6 months. SYD-JFK sounds better from a marketing perspective, so SYD it is.
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