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AirbusMDCFAN
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American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:58 pm

Link/Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 00000taAf2


From Oscar Munoz:

“[Norwegian’s] not being subsidised doing what they do,” says Oscar Munoz, chief executive of United, on the sidelines of the US Chamber of Commerce Aviation Summit in Washington DC today. “That’s something we have to accept and work through… I appreciate that – I don’t like it necessarily as a competitor – but that we can compete with.”

Munoz describes Norwegian’s Irish subsidiary Norwegian Air International (NAI) and its UK subsidiary Norwegian UK as "clever... labour arbitrage" plays that allows them to keep costs low by hiring staff in different countries.

NAI will begin service to the USA in June with new service on Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft to Edinburgh from Hartford, Newburgh Stewart and Providence. It plans to add service to Belfast, Cork, Dublin and Shannon from the US cities by July.

However many pilot union groups were not happy with NAI's coming to America, especially given that they skirt labor laws by being based in Norway, but using an Irish AOC, and paying substantially lower wages. What has changed with the United CEO.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:02 pm

The unions need to quit it, there is literally nothing to be upset about this, they are on the losing side.
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berari
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:53 pm

This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.
 
kiowa
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:18 pm

berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.
 
Flighty
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:26 pm

Yeah I tend to be very anti union but that does not mean I am against worker nationality regulations. Norwegian is a farce that disrespects both European and US workers and voters. Obviously I could staff any business with Thai nationals and come out ahead. Not terribly innovative, just generally illegal. They are great people willing to work for 1/5 of western wages. Just because it may be a legal loophole now doesn't mean the loophole won't be closed next week.
 
berari
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:28 pm

kiowa wrote:
berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


Loophole or allowances within the agreement? However you look at it, Norwegian is working within the laws and agreements that the US is a signatory party to. Would it have made a difference if a brand new airline were to start up from Cork?
 
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intotheair
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:29 pm

kiowa wrote:
berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


Not only that, but Ted did not operate under a work contract or FAA certificate different from mainline UA. Ted was merely a new brand that looked low cost and with all-Y cabins to low yield destinations. It was never actually operated at low cost because it was still crewed with mainline UA pilots and FAs. Aside from the paint on the side of the plane, the extra Y seats, and the destinations, it wasn't really any different from any other UA A320 flight.

From what I gather, U.S. airline work contracts make it nearly impossible for airlines to operate under two different pay scales. That was one of the reasons why Republic never integrated Frontier.
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airportugal310
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:32 am

First the unions tried to say that Norwegian was "less safe" than everyone else. That didn't pan out because it was BS to begin with. Now they bitch about it exploiting loopholes. What's next when that fails??
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cledaybuck
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:03 am

intotheair wrote:
kiowa wrote:
berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


Not only that, but Ted did not operate under a work contract or FAA certificate different from mainline UA. Ted was merely a new brand that looked low cost and with all-Y cabins to low yield destinations. It was never actually operated at low cost because it was still crewed with mainline UA pilots and FAs. Aside from the paint on the side of the plane, the extra Y seats, and the destinations, it wasn't really any different from any other UA A320.
Right. That is mostly why it failed.
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Varsity1
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:08 am

airportugal310 wrote:
First the unions tried to say that Norwegian was "less safe" than everyone else. That didn't pan out because it was BS to begin with. Now they bitch about it exploiting loopholes. What's next when that fails??


Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.
 
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:12 am

berari wrote:
kiowa wrote:
berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


Loophole or allowances within the agreement? However you look at it, Norwegian is working within the laws and agreements that the US is a signatory party to. Would it have made a difference if a brand new airline were to start up from Cork?


If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.
 
BestWestern
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:14 am

Yet Irish icao standards are higher than the US?
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thekorean
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:21 am

FlyUSAir wrote:
The unions need to quit it, there is literally nothing to be upset about this, they are on the losing side.


They have a point, but they need to be telling EU to close the loop hole.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:50 am

Varsity1 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
First the unions tried to say that Norwegian was "less safe" than everyone else. That didn't pan out because it was BS to begin with. Now they bitch about it exploiting loopholes. What's next when that fails??


Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


Legitimate questions, why do you hate Norwegian and the ME3? Do you see them as that much of a threat against US airlines? And wouldn't you trust Norwegian over Allegiant, whom have no regard for safety, on the FAA's watch-list, and has management made up of ex-ValuJet executives?
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bluefltspecial
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:14 am

Varsity1 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
First the unions tried to say that Norwegian was "less safe" than everyone else. That didn't pan out because it was BS to begin with. Now they bitch about it exploiting loopholes. What's next when that fails??


Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


I really get tired of the "LESS SAFE" nonsense. So, let's just shut this down already.

A quick google search of Norwegian's safety records shows them currently MORE safe than Swiss, United and Singapore, and trailing just behind Southwest and Delta. Please, give it a rest.

http://www.jacdec.de/airline-safety-ranking-2015/

Anything else?
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strfyr51
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:22 am

we have shaky operators here in the USA that rival Norwegian in EVERY turn! It will come to light just HOW shaky NAI either IS or ISN'T. And it won't be that long either.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:26 am

Varsity1 wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


I would encourage you to research before posting. Norwegian has no "Thai" pilots at this time. However, there are a large number of European pilots employed and based in BKK. You might be confusing Thai cabin crews, there is a BKK Thai cabin crew base. One stipulation in approval of the NAI agreement was the Thai crews would not be used on Transoceanic flights between EU-US routes.

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?
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UA777EWRTLV
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:47 am

Not nit pick, but for accuracy's sake, I interject: correct that AA has Latin America bases and DL has Asian bases that hires locals at lower wages. However, not the case with united. Their foreign bases in London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, and Hong Kong are all staffed with a mix of foreigners as well as Americans that choose to be based overseas - however ALL are paid exactly the same and work under the same AFA contract, and foreigners based in those foreign domiciles are part of the seniority lost and represented by the Union. Years ago, united used to have a Bangkok and Singapore base that hired locals at lower wages and were not represented by the union, but those bases closed over a decade ago
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:01 am

bluefltspecial wrote:

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?


I am shocked.....SHOCKED !

Thank you for shocking me. I didn't know that the US3 stooped so low and then have the nerve to whine about Norwegian.

Cheers
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N644US
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:16 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


I would encourage you to research before posting. Norwegian has no "Thai" pilots at this time. However, there are a large number of European pilots employed and based in BKK. You might be confusing Thai cabin crews, there is a BKK Thai cabin crew base. One stipulation in approval of the NAI agreement was the Thai crews would not be used on Transoceanic flights between EU-US routes.

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?


I recall DL has an NRT base and some outstation bases in Asia where the FAs are only allowed to fly the NRT hub routes (NRT-HKG, NRT-SIN, etc.), and I believe as well the rule where every flight is required to have at least 2 US based FAs (purser and 1 US flight attendant). The rest based on experience are mostly based either in NRT or outstations I believe are NOT allowed to fly any routes to/from/within the US. It's not like NAI, who was going to use completely different nationality FAs (ex. Thai crew operating a NAI flight to the US not from Thailand). In DL's case, their crew only fly to/from their base and never work flights originating and ending in different countries than their base.

AA has a system where their outstations in BOG, EZE, etc. are only allowed to operate on their routes to/from the country in which they are based, akin to the idea where the crews are operating flights to/from their base and not a route that doesn't even begin or end in the country they're based in.

Regional airlines in the US are the step below the majors -- they pay less and you work more. So what? So long as they're paid according to US regulations at and above US minimum wage ($20-$50 per hour depending on seniority).
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N644US
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:19 am

BobPatterson wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?


I am shocked.....SHOCKED !

Thank you for shocking me. I didn't know that the US3 stooped so low and then have the nerve to whine about Norwegian.

Cheers


They don't stoop that low. Not as low as people are whining about with NAI. Please see my latest post regarding that. In addition, I believe DL is no longer hiring at their outstation bases so they'll be on the way out at some point.
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Varsity1
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:45 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


I would encourage you to research before posting. Norwegian has no "Thai" pilots at this time. However, there are a large number of European pilots employed and based in BKK. You might be confusing Thai cabin crews, there is a BKK Thai cabin crew base. One stipulation in approval of the NAI agreement was the Thai crews would not be used on Transoceanic flights between EU-US routes.

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?


Nope, because you're clearly clueless.

I can make more flying an E145 at Envoy or TSA than a captain on a 787 at NAI.

NAI the airline isn't the problem. The business model is. This NAI miscarriage will set the legal precedence for airlines flagged in Liberia or what ever FOC country with open skies agreements is available. Staffed with Bangladeshi flight attendants and Chinese air cadets to fly your family around a few dollars cheaper.

Europe farms everything out and wonders why nobody at home has a job. It doesn't do anything for consumers. It creates an unsafe product and lines the pockets of shareholders. It could be repeated in any industry with similar "success" but regulations rightly keep it from happening. It's like you guys just discovered global trade again.

We don't want US legislators to deny "Norwegian" specifically. We want them to pull out of or amend the open skies agreements to keep any airline anywhere from FOC'ing to circumvent safety and labor standards.
 
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:48 am

The flight attendant stations are required by international government agreements to staff locals. Completely out of the airlines hands.
 
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:13 pm

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
Link/Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 00000taAf2


From Oscar Munoz:

“[Norwegian’s] not being subsidised doing what they do,” says Oscar Munoz, chief executive of United, on the sidelines of the US Chamber of Commerce Aviation Summit in Washington DC today. “That’s something we have to accept and work through… I appreciate that – I don’t like it necessarily as a competitor – but that we can compete with.”

Munoz describes Norwegian’s Irish subsidiary Norwegian Air International (NAI) and its UK subsidiary Norwegian UK as "clever... labour arbitrage" plays that allows them to keep costs low by hiring staff in different countries.

NAI will begin service to the USA in June with new service on Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft to Edinburgh from Hartford, Newburgh Stewart and Providence. It plans to add service to Belfast, Cork, Dublin and Shannon from the US cities by July.

However many pilot union groups were not happy with NAI's coming to America, especially given that they skirt labor laws by being based in Norway, but using an Irish AOC, and paying substantially lower wages. What has changed with the United CEO.


Here I was thinking the "competition" would be TATL on an AA CRJ-900 with drop tanks, half the plane as upcharge seats, and either no IFE or streaming services with no device plug-ins.
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oldannyboy
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
berari wrote:
kiowa wrote:


Loophole or allowances within the agreement? However you look at it, Norwegian is working within the laws and agreements that the US is a signatory party to. Would it have made a difference if a brand new airline were to start up from Cork?


If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


Varsity, I don't know which of your posts to reply to...as all are pretty dramatic and nonsensical..

Europe has nothing -believe me- absolutely nothing, to learn from the US in terms of employment practices. The US is approximately a good century behind Europe in terms of employment benefits and labour protection. Heck, in Europe everyone gets holidays, and benefits, right from day one, not to mention far better protection from employment termination, a fully functioning welfare system and free healthcare; plus a guaranteed state pension.

Yes, Norwegian might be going through loopholes, but what they do is still legal... They are more or less doing what any shipping company does. Have ever seen a cruise ship where cabin staff comes from either Europe or the US? Ever wondered why everybody is Filipino? Is it legal? Yes. Is it fair? (to the Filipinos, I mean)...well, that is debatable. To them probably it's still a better proposition than staying home with no job, or braking their backs in a factory to earn a pittance. If that was up to me I'd love to see them paid just as much as a European labourer, but the market wants cheap cruises.... It's the way the global economy is going.... Everything readily available, in large quantities, and for a cheap price. And guess which country in the world is behind this kind of economy model..... I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
I won't even touch the case of cheap goods produced in poor countries so that they can be sold in rich countries for a dime, and I'll avoid pointing the obvious that the trend was initiated by the US. And don't get me started on the need to access cheap oil in order to sustain a certain kind of economy, based on cheap good and cheap labour... No, Europe certainly doesn't need to take lessons from the US in terms of ethics or labour laws.
 
jimbo737
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:21 pm

I wouldn't put much stock in that safety rating outfit.

There's an airline In the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus in what amounted to a crash landing just a few years ago.

I guess that one was considered a mulligan?
 
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767333ER
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:16 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
I wouldn't put much stock in that safety rating outfit.

There's an airline In the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus in what amounted to a crash landing just a few years ago.

I guess that one was considered a mulligan?

I agree that safety rating thing isn't the most reputable source, but must you always try and find a way to pick on AC almost every time you post? We get the point...
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:38 pm

Flighty wrote:
Yeah I tend to be very anti union but that does not mean I am against worker nationality regulations. Norwegian is a farce that disrespects both European and US workers and voters. Obviously I could staff any business with Thai nationals and come out ahead. Not terribly innovative, just generally illegal. They are great people willing to work for 1/5 of western wages. Just because it may be a legal loophole now doesn't mean the loophole won't be closed next week.


Less than 5% of the crews are from Thailand. Most are from the UK, Scandinavia, or the USA. And if you want to know my source, I work for the airline.
 
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:40 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


I would encourage you to research before posting. Norwegian has no "Thai" pilots at this time. However, there are a large number of European pilots employed and based in BKK. You might be confusing Thai cabin crews, there is a BKK Thai cabin crew base. One stipulation in approval of the NAI agreement was the Thai crews would not be used on Transoceanic flights between EU-US routes.

If you'd like to talk about hiring foreign crews at lower local wages, I would encourage you to contact American Airlines, Delta and United. American has cabin crew bases in Central and South America. Delta and United both have crew bases in Asia... all of which are paid local wages far lower than that of US based cabin crews.

America too has lots of unemployed pilots too, most of them go to work for companies that are subcontracted by larger US carries paying wages for below what US majors are willing to pay. They are called regional airlines.

Do you see the hypocrisy here?


The SIN pilot base was reduced to virtually nothing - almost all of those pilots are now based in LGW. The only ones still based in SIN are there because they opted to stay there and it's a very small number.
 
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:47 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
berari wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


Varsity, I don't know which of your posts to reply to...as all are pretty dramatic and nonsensical..

Europe has nothing -believe me- absolutely nothing, to learn from the US in terms of employment practices. The US is approximately a good century behind Europe in terms of employment benefits and labour protection. Heck, in Europe everyone gets holidays, and benefits, right from day one, not to mention far better protection from employment termination, a fully functioning welfare system and free healthcare; plus a guaranteed state pension.

Yes, Norwegian might be going through loopholes, but what they do is still legal... They are more or less doing what any shipping company does. Have ever seen a cruise ship where cabin staff comes from either Europe or the US? Ever wondered why everybody is Filipino? Is it legal? Yes. Is it fair? (to the Filipinos, I mean)...well, that is debatable. To them probably it's still a better proposition than staying home with no job, or braking their backs in a factory to earn a pittance. If that was up to me I'd love to see them paid just as much as a European labourer, but the market wants cheap cruises.... It's the way the global economy is going.... Everything readily available, in large quantities, and for a cheap price. And guess which country in the world is behind this kind of economy model..... I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
I won't even touch the case of cheap goods produced in poor countries so that they can be sold in rich countries for a dime, and I'll avoid pointing the obvious that the trend was initiated by the US. And don't get me started on the need to access cheap oil in order to sustain a certain kind of economy, based on cheap good and cheap labour... No, Europe certainly doesn't need to take lessons from the US in terms of ethics or labour laws.


With all due respect, your post is simply equating 'different' with 'worse'. Europe has its problems too, but it seems to me that you are just saying everything you don't like about American labor law, practice, morals or anything else is bad. I'm sure if we ask the Greeks, Italians, English, or any one of several other nation-states in Europe about their opinion of EU labor law and practice they would have different opinions than you. When I hear the words 'believe me' in the first sentence it is rather difficult to take everything you say at face value.

If you prefer how the EU handles things, fine. But please do not display your biases against America and claim it's evidence your way is better.

Thank you.
 
JBLUA320
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:56 pm

Let's get a few facts here -

1. Under stipulation for NAI, the flights will only be operated by crews from the US, UK and EU. The 737MAX routes to/from Ireland, Scotland, and the US will only use crews hired in and based in EDI, NYC, and PVD - 75 people in each to start.
2. The airline has already agreed to stop Thai crew (which represents less than 5% of Norwegian's total crew) from operating flights to the US contingent upon the approval of the certificate and transfer of long haul services to NAI, thus bringing the extremely small BKK base in-line with what DL and AA do in other countries.
3. Norwegian already has crew bases in JFK and FLL - almost 500 flight attendants - and is now recruiting 787 pilots to be based in FLL. All are US citizens and none will be paid less than regional rates as stated above unless you look at year 1 Norwegian pay vs year 15 ERJ pay. We have pilot applicants from all sorts of backgrounds, including American pilots who fly now for WN, TK, EY, EK, QR, G4, NK and the regionals.
4. The Irish AOC has its own HQ at Dublin Airport with dispatch and operations, and staffs almost 100 people.

If you think what Norwegian is doing is any different than IAG, you're dead wrong. IAG has AOCs all over Europe - with different airlines - and different pay rates. If Norwegian's name wasn't geographic in nature, this argument wouldn't even exist. The difference here is that instead of calling them British Airways, Aer Lingus, and Vueling, they're all called Norwegian and they all essentially "code share" on the back-end. Just as Munoz pointed out, it's clever. And it's legal.

Don't like it? Write clearer, more stringent Open Skies laws. But be warned: there is a marked difference between a fair two-way Open Skies treaty and a treaty that is protectionist and biased toward large, allianced airlines and joint ventures. Consumers may win via those agreements when it comes to airlines to pick from, but they certainly lose on price when the airlines involved all get to work together and keep fares unjustifiably high.
 
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longhauler
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:12 pm

767333ER wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
I wouldn't put much stock in that safety rating outfit.

There's an airline In the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus in what amounted to a crash landing just a few years ago.

I guess that one was considered a mulligan?

I agree that safety rating thing isn't the most reputable source, but must you always try and find a way to pick on AC almost every time you post? We get the point...

Yes, jimbo737 will segue just about any discussion into a "Westjet good, Air Canada bad" discussion. It gets boring and eventually silly.

With regard to "an airline in the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus", remember, that everyone walked off the aircraft, just like the FIVE, yes FIVE, runway overruns Westjet had in the last 15 years! Also remember, that when the TSB report is published, you will be surprised that both Transport Canada, and the Halifax Airport Authority may well find themselves on the hook for a $55M aircraft.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:40 pm

It sounds like Norweigan is doing something similar to what cruise companies like Carnival are doing. Am I wrong?
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
skipness1E
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:03 pm

There are levels. Norwegian's growth was predicated on SAS going bust and they were deeply unhappy when their plan to mop up that talent pool at a fraction of the price failed. Gatwick sees EI- 737s flying for D8 alongside LN 737 aircraft flying for DY. They also see EI-, LN- and G- 787s operating the same routes. The culture is pay peanuts to their staff and hope.
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lesfalls
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Is the pay for Norwegian crew/pilots on par or less then what crew/pilots receive on Spirit?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
zackapan
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:08 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
berari wrote:

If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.


Varsity, I don't know which of your posts to reply to...as all are pretty dramatic and nonsensical..

Europe has nothing -believe me- absolutely nothing, to learn from the US in terms of employment practices. The US is approximately a good century behind Europe in terms of employment benefits and labour protection. Heck, in Europe everyone gets holidays, and benefits, right from day one, not to mention far better protection from employment termination, a fully functioning welfare system and free healthcare; plus a guaranteed state pension.

Yes, Norwegian might be going through loopholes, but what they do is still legal... They are more or less doing what any shipping company does. Have ever seen a cruise ship where cabin staff comes from either Europe or the US? Ever wondered why everybody is Filipino? Is it legal? Yes. Is it fair? (to the Filipinos, I mean)...well, that is debatable. To them probably it's still a better proposition than staying home with no job, or braking their backs in a factory to earn a pittance. If that was up to me I'd love to see them paid just as much as a European labourer, but the market wants cheap cruises.... It's the way the global economy is going.... Everything readily available, in large quantities, and for a cheap price. And guess which country in the world is behind this kind of economy model..... I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
I won't even touch the case of cheap goods produced in poor countries so that they can be sold in rich countries for a dime, and I'll avoid pointing the obvious that the trend was initiated by the US. And don't get me started on the need to access cheap oil in order to sustain a certain kind of economy, based on cheap good and cheap labour... No, Europe certainly doesn't need to take lessons from the US in terms of ethics or labour laws.




Why on earth would you want Filipino workers taking European jobs. I work at sea and I can tell you now it is getting harder and harder to get jobs all because of crews outside of Europe can work for European companies for half the price. Its Unfair and Utter greed from the company. Braking their backs, certainly not they are as lazy as anyone else. The system is broken and the Airlines should take a good look at the shipping industry as its a mess, what they are trying to become is the shipping industry today. I'm sorry to be so blunt about this but it makes me very angry to see good sailors loose their job because someone will work for 500 dollars a month less.

http://www.mua.org.au/tags/alexander_spirit This is a fine example of what happens when you abuse these laws.
 
Cunard
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:27 pm

Zackapan

I totally agree with you I have been involved in the cruise industry for 34 years and in that time it's been absolutely unbelievable how the whole industry has been taken over by cheap foreign crews, upsetting really how many people have lost their seagoing jobs (including myself) to cheaper foreign crews. I guess I am lucky as I am now shore based still in the cruise industry and working in the Port of Southampton.
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AEROFAN
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:41 pm

kiowa wrote:
berari wrote:
This is no different than when United did TED, or Air Canada does Rouge, where the airlines are created low cost subsidiaries with different work contracts.In the case of Norwegian, they have used the facilities available to them to create a subsidiary outside their home base that favour their business plan.



No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


And why shouldn't they use loopholes? Isn't that why loopholes exist? Good for them. If I still lived in NYC I would not be schlepping to any of those back water airports though...
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:31 pm

As already pointed out all crews flying Trans Atlantic routes, both pilots and flight attendants, will be based in the EU or USA, be citizens (or legal residents) of that country, and be employed on a local contract paid in EUR/GBP/USD/NOK etc.

If they have pilots willing to fly for them for less pay than United or British Airways then ultimately that is the individual pilots decision, and is the free market at work. Nobody is forcing them into a job at Norwegian, and the LCCs, Regionals and charter carriers having been paying less than the majors for decades. This isn't exaclty radical.

The one thing that I laugh about with this NAI hyperbole is that Jetstar fly SYD/MEL-HNL with ... wait for it ... Thai crew. They fly patterns like HKT-SYD-HNL (obviously with an overnight in Sydney) and have been doing this so for the best part of a decade. Clearly the good people of ALPA, APFA etc don't extend their concern to their colleagues at Hawaiian.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
airzona11
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:15 pm

AEROFAN wrote:

And why shouldn't they use loopholes? Isn't that why loopholes exist? Good for them. If I still lived in NYC I would not be schlepping to any of those back water airports though...


Exactly. It really isn't any different than LH or IAG using Eurowings or Express, with different crews and pilots.

RyanairGuru wrote:
As already pointed out all crews flying Trans Atlantic routes, both pilots and flight attendants, will be based in the EU or USA, be citizens (or legal residents) of that country, and be employed on a local contract paid in EUR/GBP/USD/NOK etc.

If they have pilots willing to fly for them for less pay than United or British Airways then ultimately that is the individual pilots decision, and is the free market at work. Nobody is forcing them into a job at Norwegian, and the LCCs, Regionals and charter carriers having been paying less than the majors for decades. This isn't exaclty radical.

The one thing that I laugh about with this NAI hyperbole is that Jetstar fly SYD/MEL-HNL with ... wait for it ... Thai crew. They fly patterns like HKT-SYD-HNL (obviously with an overnight in Sydney) and have been doing this so for the best part of a decade. Clearly the good people of ALPA, APFA etc don't extend their concern to their colleagues at Hawaiian.


Great points.

And to be fair to Oscar, UA isn't complaining about it. Why do airlines have regionals do lots of their flying? Cost. Period. Everyone is going to do what they can to compete as best they can. You can go after the high revenue, the business, the frequent, but you also need the butts in seat price sensitive shoppers. The Legacies are in a position to compete bc with various classes and fare classes they can go after all of them on the same plane.
 
IPFreely
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:33 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


Number of passengers killed by select airlines since 1987:
Northwest 162
Delta Connection 143
Delta 16
Norwegian 0
 
ual777
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:26 am

lesfalls wrote:
Is the pay for Norwegian crew/pilots on par or less then what crew/pilots receive on Spirit?


Less.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:06 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


Please provide factual evidence or links to such that demonstrate:

1. Norwegian is less safe.

2. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US.

3. That you have a crystal ball with a proven track record.

Thank you.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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767333ER
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:18 pm

longhauler wrote:
767333ER wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
I wouldn't put much stock in that safety rating outfit.

There's an airline In the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus in what amounted to a crash landing just a few years ago.

I guess that one was considered a mulligan?

I agree that safety rating thing isn't the most reputable source, but must you always try and find a way to pick on AC almost every time you post? We get the point...

Yes, jimbo737 will segue just about any discussion into a "Westjet good, Air Canada bad" discussion. It gets boring and eventually silly.

With regard to "an airline in the top 5 who wrote off a narrow body airbus", remember, that everyone walked off the aircraft, just like the FIVE, yes FIVE, runway overruns Westjet had in the last 15 years! Also remember, that when the TSB report is published, you will be surprised that both Transport Canada, and the Halifax Airport Authority may well find themselves on the hook for a $55M aircraft.

We really should stop responding to this garbage, but I must admit I just can't help myself sometimes. I can't believe how someone could find a way to twist a AA and UA vs DY into another way to hate on AC. I'm almost impressed. :lol:
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Mortyman
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:03 am

Varsity1 wrote:
berari wrote:
kiowa wrote:


No different than United doing Ted??? United used US workers flying to US cites with airframes owned by a US corporation. To be no different, Nowegian would have to fly with norwegian employees from Oslo to Stavenger and Tromso. Hardly the same thing. Their business model is to use all the loopholes within the US government that they can find to exploit the American workers. The Unions are totally on the correct side in their battle.


Loophole or allowances within the agreement? However you look at it, Norwegian is working within the laws and agreements that the US is a signatory party to. Would it have made a difference if a brand new airline were to start up from Cork?


If a brand new airline started up in Cork, flagged in Norway, hiring thai crews through Singapore labor contracts then YES.

Europe has a terrible unemployment situation. They have thousands of unemployed pilots, yet airlines like NAI are exploiting flag of convenience to hire foreign crews from thailand and SE asia.


Wake up Europe.



From what I understand there is a lack of pilots actually that is the problem in the world and I would imagine in Europe. The future demand is huge..

As for Norwegian they are still hiring Norwegians to their operations, primarely in Europe and have not laid off any Norwegian because of it's expansions.
 
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reidar76
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:04 am

There are a lot of misconceptions in this tread.

Here are some facts:

1) Norwegian or its subsidiaries does NOT have any Asian pilots. (Citizenship, not ethnicity.)

2) Norwegian is an EU carrier and EU law apply. "Norwegian" is a brand, just like the US carrier "Southwest". Southwest can fly to and employ pilots in the Northeast. There aren't any such restrictions.

3) The EU is a single work market. Citizens of any EU member state (and EEC state) can move and take work in any other member state. It is no different than moving from California to Texas. It is nothing like moving from Canada to the US. You don't need to apply, you don't need to have a Green card or anything like that. There are no boarders or border control (except for the UK) within the EU. Yes, salary levels do vary between EU member states, just like they do in the US.

4) Yes, Norwegian is hiring foreign (non-EU) crews at lower local wages. I have flown with them numerous times across the Atlantic, and I have only encountered what I perceives as an American crew onboard. Reading now that their new Boeing 737-8 MAX aircraft will be stationed in SWF and PDV, flying to Scotland (Edinburgh), Ireland and Northern Ireland (Dublin, Shannon, Cork, Belfast) and Norway (Bergen), strengthens this observation.

It is well known that the mostly social democratic or socialistic Europe has strong legal protection for workers, and a heavily regulated work market. Using American workers is cheaper and they are easy to get rid of in case of a downturn. Clever Norwegian...
 
thaiflyer
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:28 am

Varsity1 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
First the unions tried to say that Norwegian was "less safe" than everyone else. That didn't pan out because it was BS to begin with. Now they bitch about it exploiting loopholes. What's next when that fails??


Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


So everybody outside the great USA is less safe then. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please creep back under the rock you came from.
 
Freshside3
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:08 pm

The CEO's of the US3 need to actually compete in the USA-ORK market, and not just talk about it. PVD service takes care of the local and BOS traffic, but little else. Having a flight to ORK from an actual East Coast hub connects the rest of the country, and provides a different set of dynamics than PVD-ORK.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:54 pm

reidar76 wrote:
There are a lot of misconceptions in this tread.

Here are some facts:

1) Norwegian or its subsidiaries does NOT have any Asian pilots. (Citizenship, not ethnicity.)

2) Norwegian is an EU carrier and EU law apply. "Norwegian" is a brand, just like the US carrier "Southwest". Southwest can fly to and employ pilots in the Northeast. There aren't any such restrictions.

3) The EU is a single work market. Citizens of any EU member state (and EEC state) can move and take work in any other member state. It is no different than moving from California to Texas. It is nothing like moving from Canada to the US. You don't need to apply, you don't need to have a Green card or anything like that. There are no boarders or border control (except for the UK) within the EU. Yes, salary levels do vary between EU member states, just like they do in the US.

4) Yes, Norwegian is hiring foreign (non-EU) crews at lower local wages. I have flown with them numerous times across the Atlantic, and I have only encountered what I perceives as an American crew onboard. Reading now that their new Boeing 737-8 MAX aircraft will be stationed in SWF and PDV, flying to Scotland (Edinburgh), Ireland and Northern Ireland (Dublin, Shannon, Cork, Belfast) and Norway (Bergen), strengthens this observation.

It is well known that the mostly social democratic or socialistic Europe has strong legal protection for workers, and a heavily regulated work market. Using American workers is cheaper and they are easy to get rid of in case of a downturn. Clever Norwegian...

They have a crew base at LGW and are opening another one in BCN so yes you might be right about that Europe is a heavily regulated work market but they aren't completely letting go of Europe.
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flight152
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Re: American and United happy to compete with 'clever' Norwegian

Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:11 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Norwegian is less safe. Their staff are less qualified than most RJ crews in the US. I give them 24 months before their first high profile incident.


Number of passengers killed by select airlines since 1987:
Northwest 162
Delta Connection 143
Delta 16
Norwegian 0

This so ridiculous it's not even funny. Why don't you look into how many passengers those airlines have carried in that time frame before making such a outlandish claim.

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