Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2135
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:04 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
The new video make it clearly less bad then originally reported by the picture. The difference in height between the two videos is maybe 50'. The airplane is in positive control the whole time. The airplane got out of position to nake a normal landing...they went around. This is not a huge deal.


Think you need your eyes checked. It's nearly and aircraft length in height between the two. Take a look at the still photos in the second video link.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:16 pm

flyingbird wrote:
SPREE34 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
Please don't post if you don't know how FR24 works. If nothing is reported, nothing is shown/saved. If 0 is shown/saved, 0 was transmitted by the transponder.


Transponders do not report "Altitude". They report a pressure. That pressure is only part of the equation in calculating and actual altitude displayed in an ATC system. FR24 is not a real ATC system, lacking too many parts to go into here. Any altitude data derived from FR24 should be considered suspect, as it is lacking calibrated local pressure, and other computations.


Not much correct here. FR24 is not a real ATC system and most ATC's don't use ADS-B, they use "real" radars. Altitude is sent out as ADS-B signal from the transponder and not the pressure. Data doesn't come from FR24, it comes from the transponder.


My example is one of many ways FR24 reports bad numbers you for one reason or another want to pretend this is a fully covered professional system when it is a community supported fan site. All the time FR24 reports bad data the latest example is the FDX1 flight talked about in another topic where it appeared hundreds of miles away for minutes before correcting itself.
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:38 pm

b747400erf wrote:

Not much correct here. FR24 is not a real ATC system and most ATC's don't use ADS-B, they use "real" radars. Altitude is sent out as ADS-B signal from the transponder and not the pressure. Data doesn't come from FR24, it comes from the transponder.


And ADS-B in turn get its data from Altitude (Barometric & Geometric) derived from the altimeter and GPS on board the aircraft. Keep in the mind this aircraft does have the capability to do RNP approaches but was likely conducting an RNAV approach. The transponder broadcasts to the ADS-B DO-260B standard.

FR24 is cool but in no way does it have the ability to report with accuracy the altitude of the ADS-B signal from that aircraft.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3242
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:29 pm

wingnuts wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why took the 45minutes to execute a go around? Seems a bit long.


Because the Airport stopped arrivals just after the missed approach, due to visibility issues... they and everyone else were then put in a hold for 20+ min, then tracked back in.

Seeing the weather and knowing the Carib, I would bet a sudden or rapid barometric pressure fluctuation occurred, thus they were off. Good job on the crew to recognize this and go missed. They were VMC and had the runway. There was no loss of control here and it was stable.

Great video, no doubt will be in the top 10 for SXM for years to come.


Having just spent the last 2 weeks down in that area, I can tell you the weather was interesting for sure, lots of nice calm weather, which quickly switched to horrific winds, so yes, you could well be correct. We were at Maho the next day, while the winds were not as bad as shown on the videos, it wasn't anything I would want to be up in a small aircraft in.

It should also be noted, the cruise lines have started selling tours to Maho, from what I gathered talking to spotters the beach is now filled every day with cruise line folks, so if you want to go down there to spot get there early and stake your spot.
 
cerealspiller
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:45 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:59 pm

BenTheGreat97 wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0uPTdKwWo78

The Maho Beach Webcam website had posted their video of the incident, and it's very obvious now that it was NOT a fake. You can clearly see the plane's lights extremely low before it starts climbing to overshoot.


Anybody notice that huge honking truck that was about to cross the road at the end of the runway? It seems large enough to actually cause some concern for some of the relatively low landings you see on video. Are vehicles of this type required to stop when planes are landing?
 
User avatar
PlaneLover32
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:06 pm

Honestly it could have happened. In sint marteen the approach is low over a beach
 
User avatar
blackbox67
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:28 pm

cerealspiller wrote:
BenTheGreat97 wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0uPTdKwWo78

Anybody notice that huge honking truck that was about to cross the road at the end of the runway? It seems large enough to actually cause some concern for some of the relatively low landings you see on video. Are vehicles of this type required to stop when planes are landing?


Image

you mean this one.? I think at this point the go-around was already in the making.
source: http://www.jacdec.de/2017/03/12/2017-03-07-westjet-airlines-boeing-737-800-too-low-near-sint-maarten/
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3629
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:07 pm

I've examined the photos, looked at the video, and have no doubt at all that this was a real event (and not photoshopped or altered.) Like many on this site, I have been to Maho Beach and every now and again some approaches seem to come in lower than those before and after them. This one is different though, and the angle of attack shown in one of the photos clearly tells me the pilots were reacting with more than a little bit of urgency.

I won't go as far as calling this a near-catastrophe - the pilots appear to be in control the entire time - but it is safe to say that they were closer to the water/terrain than they wanted to be at that time in the approach. My guess is they came within 75-100' of the water at the time the first photo was snapped. It may have been dangerously close to an accident but thankfully they acted appropriately and there were no other consequences.
None shall pass!!!!
 
wingnuts
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:45 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:29 pm

cerealspiller wrote:
BenTheGreat97 wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0uPTdKwWo78

The Maho Beach Webcam website had posted their video of the incident, and it's very obvious now that it was NOT a fake. You can clearly see the plane's lights extremely low before it starts climbing to overshoot.


Anybody notice that huge honking truck that was about to cross the road at the end of the runway? It seems large enough to actually cause some concern for some of the relatively low landings you see on video. Are vehicles of this type required to stop when planes are landing?


Its been a few years since I was at the Sunset Bar, but there were stop signs on both sides. Vehicles are to stop for approaching aircraft.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:45 pm

That truck clearly stopped (whether for the stop sign, or because of the low approach/go-around) ... but he most definitely decided he was waiting until the airplane was well, well, past him before proceeding.
 
User avatar
RetiredNWA
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:20 pm

I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:27 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/


1. Yes, they were quite low.
2. We don't know why yet.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
RetiredNWA
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:40 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/


1. Yes, they were quite low.
2. We don't know why yet.


"We don't know why yet" you say? Are you attempting to say that the two humans at the pointy end of the jet had NO responsibility as to the management of the aircraft? They didn't get that low because the passengers were at the stick or because the autopilots failed. Whatever the reason, it starts AND ends with the two pilots 'flying' the aeroplane, plain and simple. Ample opportunity to execute a go-around during their approach. Here's the equation:

Heavy Rain + Bad viz x Non-Precision Approach / 'Duck Under Minimums' = 50' above the drink and pucker factor 150%

They almost ate it.
 
ryan78
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:16 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
"We don't know why yet" you say? Are you attempting to say that the two humans at the pointy end of the jet had NO responsibility as to the management of the aircraft? They didn't get that low because the passengers were at the stick or because the autopilots failed. Whatever the reason, it starts AND ends with the two pilots 'flying' the aeroplane, plain and simple. Ample opportunity to execute a go-around during their approach. Here's the equation:

Heavy Rain + Bad viz x Non-Precision Approach / 'Duck Under Minimums' = 50' above the drink and pucker factor 150%

They almost ate it.


This has to be one of the most clueless posts on A.net I've seen in a while! Ever heard of windsheer? You can't exactly "prepare and plan" for sudden windsheer or loss of altitude on short final. What if they were stable approach all the way until they got within a few 100 meters of the threshold and then became unstable? Unless you where physically in the cockpit how would you know what happened in the seconds leading up to the successful go around? Now if they tried to somehow salvage the approach last second to try and make a landing, then I would question the decision making of the pilots as they probably would have touched down hard and/or long and risk an overrun given the conditions at the time.

As PlanesNTrains stated, we really don't know what happened, and we probably won't unless Westjet or TC open an official investigation into the incident. Which I bet they won't because the pilots managed the situation exceptionally well. They did exactly what they were trained to do, they recognized they were too low, they were unstable, and they initiated a go around and entered a hold to wait for the weather to improve. This is exactly what I would expect to happen from a well trained crew using excellent CRM. Remember, Mother Nature always has her way, you can't predict her!

Give your head a shake and stop making false accusations when there is literally ZERO information of the incident available to the general public. We get it, you probably don't like Westjet...
Last edited by ryan78 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:16 am

Pilot flare for a long period of time, not uncommon yet not often.
Viva Las Vegas
 
User avatar
MSPSXMFLIER
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:37 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:25 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/


Hey, thanks much for posting that different video perspective.....all I was aware of was the video from Maho Beach Cam.
I'd love to know what the internal chatter has been like at Westjet, between them and the flight crew.
 
wingnuts
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:45 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:26 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/


1. Yes, they were quite low.
2. We don't know why yet.


"We don't know why yet" you say? Are you attempting to say that the two humans at the pointy end of the jet had NO responsibility as to the management of the aircraft? They didn't get that low because the passengers were at the stick or because the autopilots failed. Whatever the reason, it starts AND ends with the two pilots 'flying' the aeroplane, plain and simple. Ample opportunity to execute a go-around during their approach. Here's the equation:

Heavy Rain + Bad viz x Non-Precision Approach / 'Duck Under Minimums' = 50' above the drink and pucker factor 150%

They almost ate it.



Im going to bet these pilots had the AP active while IMC. It looks like VMC at ~2 nm, they recognized they were low and did the missed. Could the wrong altimeter settings have put them there? If they set the wrong altimeter, well ya big mistake on them. What was the SOP for NWA when you were flying?

What if the barometric pressure outside changed or fluctuated rapidly, with this being not recognized or conveyed to pilots by the control tower in time? Wrong altimeter?

Did they encounter a wind event like wind shear or a directional wind change resulting in loss of speed and altitude?
Maybe they were arguing over line bids on their laptops like the NWA guys who overflew MSP... I dont know and nor do you. So why flame em with out knowing what happened?

Pretty sure the crew would need to and will have completed an occurrence report to their Chief Pilot. No?
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:03 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
I think this video should put this thread to rest. They WERE VERY LOW, and, WestJet cannot deny the poor airmanship on display here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRjqWyFjX_w/


Oh look, another expert....lol

What facts do you have that you can claim poor airmanship?

A video that starts at the moment after a go around had already been initiated because of an obviously unstable approach. But why did the approach become unstable? Heavy rains, winds that looked like the we're all over the place.....windshear??? No it was obviously the crew that were more than likely flying the RNAV approach with vertical guidance with the autopilot on to around 500 ft, where the majority of the guys I fly with disconnect when doing the actual approaches or lower...

Wasn't everyone on here screaming bloody murder because an Asiana crew flew their 777 into the sea wall and didn't know well enough to go around, yet the group are hanging a crew for doing a go around from an unstable approach! Something crews are trained to do around the world.....done!
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3573
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:21 am

They came in low, they went around. It happens at every airport occasionally.

Whether they were "seconds from disaster", I mean every landing is "seconds from disaster" if something goes wrong at the last minute. Something did here. But they fixed it, and no harm done.

It reminds me of Airplane II when Ted says "we're gonna have to come in low", Elaine replies "is that dangerous?" and Ted says "Well sure it's dangerous. Coming in low's part of every textbook approach. It's just something you have to do, when you land."

This plane was just a little too low a little too early. They realized it, went around safely and came in for another approach. Probably not worth a two page thread, although the video's certainly interesting to watch.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:14 pm

spacecadet wrote:
This plane was just a little too low a little too early. They realized it, went around safely and came in for another approach. Probably not worth a two page thread, although the video's certainly interesting to watch.

That's how I saw it.

I don't know the Boeing equivalent of an Airbus managed/managed approach, but it appears when performed, something was not ideal and the crew did what was expected ... performed a stable go-around to a safe hold and awaited better weather to a safe landing.

Likely Westjet will do an internal review of their actions. Not for any discipline, as if they did it, anyone can do it ... but to understand what happened and review/adjust SOPs to make sure it doesn't happen again. As long as they were not intentionally low, to "thrill" the watchers on Maho Beach, the flight crew are absolved as a part of a developed Safety Management System.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
blackbox67
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:35 pm

Sure, pilots can screw up their descent profile on a VOR/DME appr after a lengthy 4,5 h flight in IMC, thats really not a big deal to talk about. But this case - according to the photo/video evidence - is somewhat different to me. Giving the fact the aircraft was on a 3° path with an approximately 700 ft/min descent rate in full landing config, the pilots likely anticipated seeing the lights but may have overlooked their ALT until realizing the waves directly beneath them. They need to pull out of the descent about 1 - 1,5 miles short of the runway to prevent water contact. From this point all went according to what they were trained to. But the whole situation still looks quite abnormal to me. Internal revision is difficult without unbiased facts from the recorders or official radar data because the aircraft departed 1 h later back to YYZ.
 
User avatar
Coronado990
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:22 pm

spacecadet wrote:
They came in low, they went around. It happens at every airport occasionally.

Whether they were "seconds from disaster", I mean every landing is "seconds from disaster" if something goes wrong at the last minute. Something did here. But they fixed it, and no harm done.

It reminds me of Airplane II when Ted says "we're gonna have to come in low", Elaine replies "is that dangerous?" and Ted says "Well sure it's dangerous. Coming in low's part of every textbook approach. It's just something you have to do, when you land."

This plane was just a little too low a little too early. They realized it, went around safely and came in for another approach. Probably not worth a two page thread, although the video's certainly interesting to watch.




If that ever happened here at SAN using RWY 27, they would have become part of the parking structure.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
jimbo737
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:39 pm

Here's what happened at CYHZ when Air Canada, the 4th safest airline in the world, came in a little low in March 2015.

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/201 ... 55916.html
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:22 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Here's what happened at CYHZ when Air Canada, the 4th safest airline in the world, came in a little low in March 2015.

So what you are saying is that .... had they been 75' lower they would have killed everyone on board, not to mention everyone hanging around on Maho beach, but that's OK, cause a few years ago, someone else bent up an airplane and everyone walked away .... yikes.

Great attempt at deflection.

And yeah, AC is the 4th safest airline on the earth ... safer than Westjet.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:47 pm

longhauler wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
This plane was just a little too low a little too early. They realized it, went around safely and came in for another approach. Probably not worth a two page thread, although the video's certainly interesting to watch.

That's how I saw it.

I don't know the Boeing equivalent of an Airbus managed/managed approach, but it appears when performed, something was not ideal and the crew did what was expected ... performed a stable go-around to a safe hold and awaited better weather to a safe landing.

Likely Westjet will do an internal review of their actions. Not for any discipline, as if they did it, anyone can do it ... but to understand what happened and review/adjust SOPs to make sure it doesn't happen again. As long as they were not intentionally low, to "thrill" the watchers on Maho Beach, the flight crew are absolved as a part of a developed Safety Management System.


In full agreement.
A go around can happen at any altitude and at any time during the approach landing phase for any number of reasons. We are not privy to any of those reasons and what the flight crew did in this situation. Safety management cultures classify most safety incidents as learning events, not to place blame on guys in the pointy end of the aircraft but to prevent a repeat occurrence. To comment about what not known and not obvious is reckless in my opinion.

I see it for what it was. A 737 with a bunch of cartoons painted on side executing a rather dramatic go around during an approach to one of the most famous beaches in the world.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:41 pm

One thing for sure ... whether or not the pilots filled out a report or not, you can be sure management knows about it by now ...

If anything comes of it, it'll likely be handled internally, and we'll never know.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:37 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Here's what happened at CYHZ when Air Canada, the 4th safest airline in the world, came in a little low in March 2015.

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/201 ... 55916.html


You sounding like an a.....e now Jimbo737, one has nothing to do with the other!

From others sources I heard that it was reported as windshear with a loss of altitude to atc as the reason for the go around....
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:37 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Does the term EGPWS ring a bell?

If there was an incident, the FDM would have recorded it and provide exact data for review.


So.... Quick lesson here.

No ILS at SXM. EGPWS would provide no warning in this case because the aircraft is in the landing configuration. They could have flown the aircraft into the water and the airplane would not have said a thing. People on here can speculate all they want. Why the aircraft ended up in this situation will be investigated. The pilots performed a go-around and prevented the near disaster. They might not have been doing a good job to get to where they were, but they did to get out of it.

You should do the following.

Stick to bashing Air Canada. It's what you're best at. And I see you're comparing YHZ to this. The annoying chihuahua yaps again.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:53 pm

WestJet statement on flight 2652 to St. Maarten on March 7

https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-statement-on-flight-2652-to-st-maarten-on-march-7/

Below is the text

On Tuesday, March 7, WestJet flight 2652 from Toronto to St. Maarten executed a missed approach (go-around) at Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) and was captured by local photographers and aircraft enthusiasts. The approach to SXM is a famous plane-spotting location because Maho Beach is located directly in front of the runway, giving aviation enthusiasts and tourists alike a very close view of landing aircraft.

Video and photos of the missed approached spawned articles with unfortunate and frankly, irresponsible headlines such as, “Near Miss” and “WestJet denies close call caught on camera at St. Maarten,” with some even speculating on a potential disaster that was averted.

We think it’s important to share with you what a missed approach means and how this “near miss” was anything but.

Every day our pilots safely land some 700 flights throughout our network of more than 100 destinations in over 20 different countries, many of which have unique weather and terrain. Occasionally a landing will be aborted and a missed approach initiated if the pilots determine it’s the best option. In this case, our crew experienced rapidly changing weather conditions and as a result descended below the normal glide path on the approach to the landing. The crew recognized the situation, and the regularly trained and desired outcome was obtained – a safe missed approach to a safe landing.

There can be any number of reasons why a go-around could be made. Weather or runway conditions may be less than ideal, or there may be other aircraft still on, or in the vicinity of, the runway. Regardless of the reason, pilots are trained to initiate a missed approach without hesitation, and go-arounds like the one executed last week at SXM – while not something we do every day – are also not uncommon. Relying on their skill, training and experience, our pilots who landed our Boeing 737-800 at SXM last week made the right call, and the process worked the way in which it’s intended.

All situations like this will have a fulsome review with learnings applied. Perspective is always helpful when you’re looking at a photo or video, or reading or hearing something in the news.Thanks for visiting our blog to get ours.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5001
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:36 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
WestJet statement on flight 2652 to St. Maarten on March 7

https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-statement-on-flight-2652-to-st-maarten-on-march-7/

Below is the text

On Tuesday, March 7, WestJet flight 2652 from Toronto to St. Maarten executed a missed approach (go-around) at Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) and was captured by local photographers and aircraft enthusiasts. The approach to SXM is a famous plane-spotting location because Maho Beach is located directly in front of the runway, giving aviation enthusiasts and tourists alike a very close view of landing aircraft.

Video and photos of the missed approached spawned articles with unfortunate and frankly, irresponsible headlines such as, “Near Miss” and “WestJet denies close call caught on camera at St. Maarten,” with some even speculating on a potential disaster that was averted.

We think it’s important to share with you what a missed approach means and how this “near miss” was anything but.

Every day our pilots safely land some 700 flights throughout our network of more than 100 destinations in over 20 different countries, many of which have unique weather and terrain. Occasionally a landing will be aborted and a missed approach initiated if the pilots determine it’s the best option. In this case, our crew experienced rapidly changing weather conditions and as a result descended below the normal glide path on the approach to the landing. The crew recognized the situation, and the regularly trained and desired outcome was obtained – a safe missed approach to a safe landing.

There can be any number of reasons why a go-around could be made. Weather or runway conditions may be less than ideal, or there may be other aircraft still on, or in the vicinity of, the runway. Regardless of the reason, pilots are trained to initiate a missed approach without hesitation, and go-arounds like the one executed last week at SXM – while not something we do every day – are also not uncommon. Relying on their skill, training and experience, our pilots who landed our Boeing 737-800 at SXM last week made the right call, and the process worked the way in which it’s intended.

All situations like this will have a fulsome review with learnings applied. Perspective is always helpful when you’re looking at a photo or video, or reading or hearing something in the news.Thanks for visiting our blog to get ours.
So they basically admit they were below the glide path? Nice.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:58 pm

32andBelow wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
WestJet statement on flight 2652 to St. Maarten on March 7

https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-statement-on-flight-2652-to-st-maarten-on-march-7/

Below is the text

On Tuesday, March 7, WestJet flight 2652 from Toronto to St. Maarten executed a missed approach (go-around) at Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) and was captured by local photographers and aircraft enthusiasts. The approach to SXM is a famous plane-spotting location because Maho Beach is located directly in front of the runway, giving aviation enthusiasts and tourists alike a very close view of landing aircraft.

Video and photos of the missed approached spawned articles with unfortunate and frankly, irresponsible headlines such as, “Near Miss” and “WestJet denies close call caught on camera at St. Maarten,” with some even speculating on a potential disaster that was averted.

We think it’s important to share with you what a missed approach means and how this “near miss” was anything but.

Every day our pilots safely land some 700 flights throughout our network of more than 100 destinations in over 20 different countries, many of which have unique weather and terrain. Occasionally a landing will be aborted and a missed approach initiated if the pilots determine it’s the best option. In this case, our crew experienced rapidly changing weather conditions and as a result descended below the normal glide path on the approach to the landing. The crew recognized the situation, and the regularly trained and desired outcome was obtained – a safe missed approach to a safe landing.

There can be any number of reasons why a go-around could be made. Weather or runway conditions may be less than ideal, or there may be other aircraft still on, or in the vicinity of, the runway. Regardless of the reason, pilots are trained to initiate a missed approach without hesitation, and go-arounds like the one executed last week at SXM – while not something we do every day – are also not uncommon. Relying on their skill, training and experience, our pilots who landed our Boeing 737-800 at SXM last week made the right call, and the process worked the way in which it’s intended.

All situations like this will have a fulsome review with learnings applied. Perspective is always helpful when you’re looking at a photo or video, or reading or hearing something in the news.Thanks for visiting our blog to get ours.
So they basically admit they were below the glide path? Nice.


Due to rapidly changing weather conditions....great job by a well trained crew. Same as many airlines around the world!!!
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:24 am

^^^ this.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
benjjk
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:48 am

32andBelow wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
WestJet statement on flight 2652 to St. Maarten on March 7

https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-statement-on-flight-2652-to-st-maarten-on-march-7/

Below is the text

On Tuesday, March 7, WestJet flight 2652 from Toronto to St. Maarten executed a missed approach (go-around) at Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) and was captured by local photographers and aircraft enthusiasts. The approach to SXM is a famous plane-spotting location because Maho Beach is located directly in front of the runway, giving aviation enthusiasts and tourists alike a very close view of landing aircraft.

Video and photos of the missed approached spawned articles with unfortunate and frankly, irresponsible headlines such as, “Near Miss” and “WestJet denies close call caught on camera at St. Maarten,” with some even speculating on a potential disaster that was averted.

We think it’s important to share with you what a missed approach means and how this “near miss” was anything but.

Every day our pilots safely land some 700 flights throughout our network of more than 100 destinations in over 20 different countries, many of which have unique weather and terrain. Occasionally a landing will be aborted and a missed approach initiated if the pilots determine it’s the best option. In this case, our crew experienced rapidly changing weather conditions and as a result descended below the normal glide path on the approach to the landing. The crew recognized the situation, and the regularly trained and desired outcome was obtained – a safe missed approach to a safe landing.

There can be any number of reasons why a go-around could be made. Weather or runway conditions may be less than ideal, or there may be other aircraft still on, or in the vicinity of, the runway. Regardless of the reason, pilots are trained to initiate a missed approach without hesitation, and go-arounds like the one executed last week at SXM – while not something we do every day – are also not uncommon. Relying on their skill, training and experience, our pilots who landed our Boeing 737-800 at SXM last week made the right call, and the process worked the way in which it’s intended.

All situations like this will have a fulsome review with learnings applied. Perspective is always helpful when you’re looking at a photo or video, or reading or hearing something in the news.Thanks for visiting our blog to get ours.
So they basically admit they were below the glide path? Nice.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic there? I think it's an excellent statement
 
tribird1011
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:22 am

[/quote]So they basically admit they were below the glide path? Nice.[/quote]

you mean the NON-EXISTENT glide path?

They were low, yes, they did the correct thing by going around and returned for a safe landing.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 am

I don't think there'd be much disagreement that the outcome at SXM was preferable to that at YHZ.

That being said, one must always keep in mind the little critters Roald Dahl conjured up in 1943 can appear anywhere, anytime and to any and all airlines.
 
kivalliqboy1
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:07 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:46 am

There is some interesting discussion on this in AvCanada.

What the photos and the videos don't do a good job of showing is what altitude they should have been at. Assuming they reached the MDA, had the field in sight and decided to continue, they may have only been at 100' on a normal approach at that point. If the approach became unstable (because of a whole number of reasons like windshear or a compounding situation around power settings) and they were 50' low, then it would be cause for going around, which they did. From what I understand, on a jet there is a lag between the decision to go around and the time all the engines are spooled up and you are actually climbing. We don't know when a crew member called the missed.

We don't know that is what happened, but there are enough plausible reasons that this wasn't a "mistake" to not jump all over the crew. A unique thing about Westjet, from a pilot perspective, is that it is a difficult company to get on with- you need a lot of experience at regional or bush level operations. In Canada, that means this crew literally had thousands of non-precision approaches under their belt. I searched today's CADORS and found five times where Westjet crews executed a missed approach in one day. This would indicate that there isn't a culture of "shame" around the idea of missing so they likely wouldn't be gunshy about it.

This could either be a big f**k up by the crew, or a sign of some amazing piloting and decision making. The pictures can't tell us either way.
 
diverted
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:01 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Here's what happened at CYHZ when Air Canada, the 4th safest airline in the world, came in a little low in March 2015.

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/201 ... 55916.html


what the F*(k does that have to do with the topic at hand? We get it, you have a hard on for WS, and that's great. But seriously, what the F does that have to do with this? Regardless of the events that transpired, why does an AC incident have to do with it?

But hey, if you want to compare the two, why is it that WS, with it's fleet of 4 763's seem to be having IROP's left right and centre? Engine failures, diversions, AOG's, losing main gear wheels. From a fleet of 4 birds. AC and Rouge have a much larger fleet, yet they seem to operate them reliably. Same with Jazz/PD and their Q400's compared with Encore's nearly brand new fleet.

Or why did C-GWSV air return to YYC with fumes in the cockpit & cabin? And mtce just did a "ground test serviceable" and released it, only for it to air return the next day? Is WS Mtce slacking? (Or are you going to go "Oh! Well AC had a DC-9 that had fumes once!(AC797) The plane caught fire and people died! That's why WS is so great!")

Notice that no one is making comparisons like you to try and defend WS. Getting defensive and pointing out an incident at another carrier does nothing to advance the topic at hand. If anything, it's obfuscating and entirely off topic, and your post should be removed.

If you're a WS fan, and hate AC, that's great. Don't fly them. If you work for WS, great, but you come across as a d*ck, and it seems you're not a good fit for the overly happy WS crowd.

The topic at hand was about the SXM go around. Clearly, the crew made the right decision by executing a missed approach. The fact that your favourite blue and teal folks had an unstable approach and went around doesn't mean you need to get all defensive and point out any sort of incident with AC. Yeah, bashing AC is a bit of a national past time around these parts, but your blabber comes across as childish and it's entirely unnecessary, and, judging from the responses you've gotten, entirely unwanted on this board.
 
76er
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:20 pm

Well, if your wheels end up about 50 feet off the water while still quite some distance off shore (half a mile, a quarter mile?) something is not a bit wrong, but seriously wrong. How the airplane got there, we don't know. Although my Boeing experience is limited to the 763 and 744, I assume the 737NG series are also equipped with radio altitude callouts. If so, the crew must have gotten the call "Fifty" and looking at the video, that may have served as a wakeup call and triggered the go around. You are supposed to get the "Fifty" call just prior to initiating flare, in other words, when you are already over the runway. Not while still a significant distance away. I also wonder at what point the crew spotted the PAPI, which must have indicated 4 reds for sure.

Anyone in the know what the normal flight procudres are at Westjet when flying non-precision approaches? The old "Dive and Drive" method or a continuous descent approach? And is it already known which IAP they were using? One of the VOR-based procedures or the RNAV/GPS procedure?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame the crew, but as a fellow pilot I am just very curious to find out how they ended up in this predicament and learn from it.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6148
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:17 pm

Anyone have the approach charts for SXM? With no ILS the MDA would have been a few hundred feet above sea level. This 737 was clearly below that. So the question is, was it an error by the flight crew of getting so far below MDA when not properly visual, or was it something like extreme windshear/microburst that was the cause?
Anyone have the ATIS or METAR for the period of their landing?
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:30 pm

CX Flyboy wrote:
Anyone have the approach charts for SXM?


They were likely doing an RNAV (GNSS) RWY10 approach.
Minima are 688' AGL and 3.2 km.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:40 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
I don't think there'd be much disagreement that the outcome at SXM was preferable to that at YHZ.

Just remember that at the point of the go-around they were actually below the surface of the runway and had they stayed at that altitude they would have plowed right through Maho Beach. In other words, had they performed this manoeuvre at YHZ, the outcome would have been quite a bit worse. (And, quite a bit worse than what happened to AC at YHZ.)

Why again are you talking about YHZ? Does it make you feel better? "Yabut, yabut, yabut ... someone else did it too."

When you grow up, you'll realize that every incident likely could have happened to any airline. And adults view this quite a bit differently. The adult way to look at this, and from a pilot's point of view ... is to assume that it actually could have happened to anyone regardless of what is painted on the tail and how did it happen, so it won't happen to me.

Incidentally that is how Safety Management Systems work at developed airlines.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
76er
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:41 pm

CX Flyboy wrote:
Anyone have the ATIS or METAR for the period of their landing?



SA 07/03/2017 21:00->
METAR TNCM 072100Z 06010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW018 BKN035 23/22
Q1019 A3009 TEMPO SHRA=
SA 07/03/2017 20:00->
METAR TNCM 072000Z 05015KT 2000 -SHRA FEW016 OVC035 22/22
Q1019 A3009 TEMPO SHRA=
SP 07/03/2017 19:25->
SPECI TNCM 071925Z 05021KT 2000 -SHRA FEW016 BKN035 22/21
Q1019 A3009=
SA 07/03/2017 19:00->
METAR TNCM 071900Z 05018KT 9999 FEW014 BKN035 24/21 Q1018
A3008 NOSIG=
SA 07/03/2017 18:00->
METAR TNCM 071800Z 05016KT 020V080 9999 FEW014TCU BKN035
25/21 Q1019 A3009 NOSIG=

As you can see, the 1925z and 2000z reports show a visibility of 2000m. No so bad, however that is less than the minimum required for commencing an approach at TNCM. If you google the various approach plates you will find that the minimum viz required is mostly over 3000m. Now it is of course possible the control tower reported a better value than that, I don't know. On the videos the visibility looks reasonable. It does explain the lengthy holding after the go around though.

As for being so low, I would not rule out an inches vs hectopascal altimeter setting mixup. The are both listed on the Metars, which is confusing. That seems more plausable than rapidly decreasing air pressure.
 
User avatar
turk223
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:16 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:16 pm

I am a huge aviation geek, but I am not a pilot. Yes, all of us geeks recognise that the photo and video made it look look like the plane was lower than normal compared to the hundreds of other photos and videos we have seen. I do not know what the pilots were doing on WestJet 2652 and would never make any declarations other than, "wow, that was different". For any aviation geek to declare it was a "near-miss" is rubbish. Considering my limited Flight SImulator 2004 knowledge of flying, I think the reply WestJet gave is logical.
 
benjjk
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:33 am

76er wrote:
As for being so low, I would not rule out an inches vs hectopascal altimeter setting mixup. The are both listed on the Metars, which is confusing. That seems more plausable than rapidly decreasing air pressure.


What seems far more plausible to me than both of those is the 21kt winds causing havoc... mixed altimeter setting shouldn't be a huge issue on a non-precision approach like this one (though not being IFR trained I stand to be corrected), so the pilots wouldn't have been staring at the altimeters, only looking up as they approached 0. They would have been looking outside at the runway long before the point of this 'incident' and managed the glidepath accordingly.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:59 am

benjjk wrote:
76er wrote:
As for being so low, I would not rule out an inches vs hectopascal altimeter setting mixup. The are both listed on the Metars, which is confusing. That seems more plausable than rapidly decreasing air pressure.


What seems far more plausible to me than both of those is the 21kt winds causing havoc... mixed altimeter setting shouldn't be a huge issue on a non-precision approach like this one (though not being IFR trained I stand to be corrected), so the pilots wouldn't have been staring at the altimeters, only looking up as they approached 0. They would have been looking outside at the runway long before the point of this 'incident' and managed the glidepath accordingly.


On all approaches from non-precision up to and including CAT III Single, at MDA (or DH), the runway must be in sight at all times right to the point of touchdown. If at any time from MDA (or DH) until landing, sight of the runway is lost, then a go-around must be performed. Period.

The pilots certainly would not have waited until the altimeters read 0 .... yikes!

So on an RNAV (GNSS) Rwy 10 approach, the pilots can not descend lower than 700' (688' above airport elevation) unless they had the runway in sight. And they must keep it in sight until they land. So all of the pilots on here are wondering.... What did they see at 700'? ... Why did they descend so low when clearly they could not have had the runway in sight?

There is a PAPI on runway 10, so 3/4 of a mile back, at 50' they were looking at 4 red!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
76er
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:27 am

benjjk wrote:

What seems far more plausible to me than both of those is the 21kt winds causing havoc...


21 Knots of wind coming in at about a 45 degree angle should be childsplay for pretty much any 737 crew.
Windshear has also been mentioned as a probable cause, but imho that would have to have been a serious microburst-type event. And the video doesn't show the typical conditions that would point to that scenario.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:51 pm

I say again:

That being said, one must always keep in mind the little critters Roald Dahl conjured up in 1943 can appear anywhere, anytime and to any and all airlines.
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:46 pm

So consider this the aircraft in question is performing a RNAV approach. Once past the the MAP I am pretty sure in the NG you lose VNAV and have only LNAV to rely on so you are required to hand fly the thing down using visual cues and managing the power. Pretty sure they were stabilized on the approach at a constant descent angle (not the duck under method) and in fact most carriers I know require you to be stable by 1000 AGL. It is possible and very likely the pilots encountered a rain squall, possible shear and poor visibility (also rain on the windscreeen ) between the MAP and the runway. In fact the video and METARs show that this was likely the case. It is a known fact that rain on the windscreen can create an illusion of being at a higher altitude due to the horizon appearing lower than it is. This can result in the pilot flying a lower approach than normal. Bottom line they reacted to it and did everything that their training required of them.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:50 am

Not sure of that aircraft, but would guess there WOULD still be vertical guidance past the MAP. The approach would need to be coded in such a way to create that constant descent. A runway threshold fix +50 feet, to the MAP to the FAF is what I would expect. What there company policy demands with auto flight past the MAP with a runway visual I don't pretend to know but if they left it all hooked up it would arrive at the threshold at 50 feet (not taking any adverse weather into it).

What IS required and this was mentioned earlier by Longhauler is an immediate go around when the runway environment was lost.

I can't see how they continued past the MAP descending low (visually), way below the PAPIs that long. I'm not assigning blame but I think the explanation after all of this speculation is quite basic.

They got out of position, probably way out of position in hindsight in their minds, but performed a go around. Which at the end of the day was required. In this case it may have come a bit late be it due to a loss of SA, but they did it which is what counts here
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Westjet Near Water Impact in Sint Maarten

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:52 am

flyingbird wrote:
SPREE34 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
Please don't post if you don't know how FR24 works. If nothing is reported, nothing is shown/saved. If 0 is shown/saved, 0 was transmitted by the transponder.


Transponders do not report "Altitude". They report a pressure. That pressure is only part of the equation in calculating and actual altitude displayed in an ATC system. FR24 is not a real ATC system, lacking too many parts to go into here. Any altitude data derived from FR24 should be considered suspect, as it is lacking calibrated local pressure, and other computations.


Not much correct here. FR24 is not a real ATC system and most ATC's don't use ADS-B, they use "real" radars. Altitude is sent out as ADS-B signal from the transponder and not the pressure. Data doesn't come from FR24, it comes from the transponder.


While aircraft altimeters and Mode C transponders, both base their altitude readings on air pressure, altimeters can be adjusted to local air pressure readings, so can give very accurate absolute altitude readings. Transponders are not adjustable to local barometric pressure readings. They are calibrated to the standard sea level pressure reading of 29.92 inches of mercury.

This is so that when aircraft are in proximity to one another, their transponders will be basing their altitude on the same air pressure, so ATC can know the difference in altitude between the two aircraft, regardless of how their flight altimeters are set or what their actual altitude is.

In other words, transponders don't transmit absolute altitude, unless the local air pressure is 29.92 inches of mercury...which also means they rarely read the same as the altimeter.
What the...?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos