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keesje
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Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:11 pm

It seems narrowbody use for longer flights will grow significantly in the next 5 years with NEO's and MAX's showing up at the gate.

Of course low cost will be important, but value for money will remain. Business class exists for a reason.

Single class high density has low CASM, but profitability might be questionable. Single class business; several airlines tried & failed a decade ago.

Image

Maybe something inbetween. Significantly better seats then economy class, reasonable seat counts per aircraft, good frequencies and way cheaper than a C-class seat with a legacy carrier twin aisle.
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usxguy
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:17 pm

too much real estate being used in the center :) But i'd certainly hope Boeing would consider making the 737MAX's a few inches WIDER. 17" seat width is NOT fun, and I've done it many times on Copa to EZE and SCL.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:19 pm

IMHO, an entire narrowbody MAX or NEO at 2x3 seating is just fantasy. Look at the small fraction of the cabin that is given over to PE and Y+ today, relative to J and Y. There just aren't enough people willing to pay for the floor space your design consumes.
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:20 pm

I wouldn't want to share 25A with that fly.
 
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Polot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:26 pm

I don't see the advantage in carrying that configuration throughout the cabin versus also having a standard 6x6 Y cabin.
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IMHO, an entire narrowbody MAX or NEO at 2x3 seating is just fantasy. Look at the small fraction of the cabin that is given over to PE and Y+ today, relative to J and Y. There just aren't enough people willing to pay for the floor space your design consumes.


Yes there are :spin:


Image
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ikolkyo
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Might as well toss this into one of the MOM threads.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:41 pm

keesje wrote:
Single class high density has low CASM, but profitability might be questionable.


I would not be surprised if Norwegian sees success with their planned low-cost TATL flights.


keesje wrote:
Single class business; several airlines tried & failed a decade ago.


BA seems to be doing well with their A318 service and while I expect the bulk of passengers are financial folks flying between Canary Wharf and Wall Street, the fact BA has a network on both ends (via themselves in Europe and AA in the United States) does not hurt, I imagine.

So I could see a Star Alliance carrier like UA or LH possibly making an all-Business Class service work, as well.

usxguy wrote:
But i'd certainly hope Boeing would consider making the 737MAX's a few inches WIDER. 17" seat width is NOT fun, and I've done it many times on Copa to EZE and SCL.


Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.
 
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Polot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:51 pm

keesje wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
IMHO, an entire narrowbody MAX or NEO at 2x3 seating is just fantasy. Look at the small fraction of the cabin that is given over to PE and Y+ today, relative to J and Y. There just aren't enough people willing to pay for the floor space your design consumes.


Yes there are :spin:

But UA's Y+ is still 6 abreast. That alone would add over 20 seats to your plane as proposed. Most of the airlines you listed don't even have a PE product on a narrowbody.
 
Strato2
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:56 pm

Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:59 pm

wait, is that a STARBUCKS at the overwings? :)

I recall a time that Metra in Chicago had a Duncan Donuts coffee stand on its trains. Maybe he's on to something. Or is keesje a her. anyway.
xx
 
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c933103
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:01 pm

BA still doing single class business TATL. Appaprently the key is to use smaller aircraft like A318 instead of 757 or 767, and be a large airline with large customer pool
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masgniw
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.


18" is not "much" wider than 17.1". That's about the length of an almond. Your average flier (aka non-a.netter) simply won't notice the difference.
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:06 pm

At first I thought the Starbucks was a putting green. :D
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Strato2
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:13 pm

Stitch wrote:
Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.


It's all smoke and mirrors. The new seats are 17.8" and even that is achieved by making the armrests super thin.
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/04/1 ... h-numbers/
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:17 pm

We've seen business only flights, KL, SAS, LH used to wetlease Privat air to fill specific business traffic demand. On a small scale though.

BA is operating flights from Paris under a Brand. Transcon AA A321's have half the seatcount other carriers use. Somehow it's about the most profitable mix. Waste of space? Apparently not.

While Business and Economy class products have been there for almost 40 years, bigger economy has been available on large scale much more recently.

NB's able to fly longer flights efficiently TATL are picked up by new entrants. New Brand opportunities might arise combining new trends / technology.

Image

Try imagine explaining your manager such seat isn't good enough. You really need a Business Class lounge seat for this 6 hour flight, for double the price.. An uncomfortable situation.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Strato2
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:18 pm

masgniw wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.


18" is not "much" wider than 17.1". That's about the length of an almond. Your average flier (aka non-a.netter) simply won't notice the difference.


You keep telling yourself that doesn't make it true though. The difference is real and it's noticeable. You conveniently forget that it's not just you who has 0.9" more room to play with but also your seating neighbour(s). The combined effect is startling especially on the shoulder rubbing issue which is the worst aspect of narrow seats.
 
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Polot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:26 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.


It's all smoke and mirrors. The new seats are 17.8" and even that is achieved by making the armrests super thin.
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/04/1 ... h-numbers/

Well its the same super thin armrests you will find on the A350 (and I believe on BA's 789s). I suspect 1.5" armrests are quickly going to become the new standard instead of 2".

keesje wrote:
BA is operating flights from Paris under a Brand. Transcon AA A321's have half the seatcount other carriers use. Somehow it's about the most profitable mix. Waste of space? Apparently not.

Nobody is doubting there is room for premium seats. We just don't understand why having all 5 abreast plane with a huge bar in the middle would be better than what you see now. AA's A321T's, Openskies' 757/767, and SAS 73G from Privatair all have standard Y seats too.

keesje wrote:
Try imagine explaining your manager such seat isn't good enough. You really need a Business Class lounge seat for this 6 hour flight, for double the price.. An uncomfortable situation.

Its questionable how successful you would be getting this seat too. Once flight benefits get cut it is very hard to get improvement over current with most jobs.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:26 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.


It's all smoke and mirrors. The new seats are 17.8" and even that is achieved by making the armrests super thin.
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/04/1 ... h-numbers/


Yes, and Airbus is doing it too on both the A350 (the original ACAP was 17.5" wide seats with 2" armrests - now it is 18" wide seats with 1.5" armrests) and with the A380 to maintain the 18" at 11-abreast (as Runway Girl noted in her report).
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:29 pm

usxguy wrote:
too much real estate being used in the center :) But i'd certainly hope Boeing would consider making the 737MAX's a few inches WIDER. 17" seat width is NOT fun, and I've done it many times on Copa to EZE and SCL.


If Boeing were going to make the 737 Max walls thinner, they would have mentioned it a few years ago. There probably wasn't any return to investing in thinning the walls to allow a few extra inches of cabin space on a model that is in its last revision.
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:33 pm

What is going on in the middle of the plane? The FAR regulations require additional visibility around window exits. Does this design have jumpseats at window exits? That is going to require extra crew. There is a reason no airline has ever put a galley, closer or lavatory next to an overwing window exit. The only airplane that I know of with a divider next to a window exit is the 757 high J United Premium Service configuration. With 10 exits and a low seat count, they could justify it to the regulators.

I don't really know who is asking for 19.5 inch wide middle seats. The industry trend has been for smaller seats and less pitch in recent years. I have not seen anyone use a 5 abreast configuration like this on a plane capable of 6 abreast in economy. It is innovative, but I am not sure I can think of any market that needs such innovation. Who do you think would fly such a configuration?
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:38 pm

Scandis from all of societys "classes" and all ages and abilities has been flying 3-3 narrowbodies of domestic comfort to the max of their range to the Canary Islands for decades, many of them for regular long weekends without much complaining. DY and others knows this, and another hour or so of flight time to a host of exiting new destinations won't suddenly make this concept impossible or difficult. It will work and the passengers will embrace it.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:38 pm

How about 3-3 all SkyCoach like Air New Zealand and Air Astana, based on demand some as beds and other standard seating.

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masgniw
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:42 pm

Strato2 wrote:
masgniw wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.


18" is not "much" wider than 17.1". That's about the length of an almond. Your average flier (aka non-a.netter) simply won't notice the difference.


You keep telling yourself that doesn't make it true though. The difference is real and it's noticeable. You conveniently forget that it's not just you who has 0.9" more room to play with but also your seating neighbour(s). The combined effect is startling especially on the shoulder rubbing issue which is the worst aspect of narrow seats.


No real need for that condescending language. I don't really understand why you felt the need to escalate your level of aggression -- I simply stated a commonly known fact that a.netters (myself included) are more sensitive to minute changes on aircraft than most "lay" travelers.
 
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ua900
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:50 pm

Ok, which carriers are using the 737 max to do TATL? Hint, it's not primarily carriers that are known for low-density, let alone J cabin service a la Privatair. DY and other ULCCs are specifically getting the max to do something that hitherto *required* 787s or 330s, pushing the envelope of a 737 the way CM might, albeit TATL instead of say SFO-PTY-MVD. DY and others will continue selling a couple rows as extra legroom, but US domestic first will be as high as they go.

J-cabin flights work well if:

1. You're a carrier like Privatair who gets compensated and flies under the auspices of a network carrier (FF miles, status accumulation, company travel department already knows who you are)
2. If you're someone like BA and fly a 318/9ish plane in all J from what we might call a boutique airport (LCY)
3. If you're part of a larger carrier that is attacking the incumbent with something that's got the legs for TATL and is fully paid for (Openskies 752)

PE flights work well if:

1. You're a network carrier that is part of an alliance.
2. You have sizable business accounts, including some business customers that don't allow for J cabin on flights under 8 or 10 hours.
3. You're getting rid of F cabin and J will be highest going forward. You've dressed up J what J was 15 years ago and now your PE will be closer to J 15 ago.

DY and WW and all the rest will do more high density. That may not appeal to traditional flyers, but then again it enables backpacking students to see Europe or the US for $350 round trips between Europe and the US West Coast. The race to the bottom wouldn't be possible without these folks. Airlines continue to find gaps in say labor agreements because the prize is so tempting. Watch the 737 max marketing materials that Boeing has put out there.

Lower cost is the raison d'etre for that whole plane, an extra dozen or so seats where only 2 have to be sold and the rest can fly empty and still not result in a higher cost to the operator. Talk to any dairy farmer or rancher and they'll agree that the cattle call is doing alright financially provided the customer doesn't ask for grass fed cattle. Will there still be a demand for premium? Sure, but those particular producers play a different game, one that involves and requires relatively high volumes and high density to maintain any competitive advantage.
Last edited by ua900 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tjh8402
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:57 pm

Strato2 wrote:
masgniw wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.


18" is not "much" wider than 17.1". That's about the length of an almond. Your average flier (aka non-a.netter) simply won't notice the difference.


You keep telling yourself that doesn't make it true though. The difference is real and it's noticeable. You conveniently forget that it's not just you who has 0.9" more room to play with but also your seating neighbour(s). The combined effect is startling especially on the shoulder rubbing issue which is the worst aspect of narrow seats.


It isn't to everyone. I regularly query family and friends who are not aviation enthusiasts about the comfort of the planes they fly on in comparison to each other. they pretty much never know which one they were on, and I've had a few people say the 737 was more comfortable than the A320. Wifi, IFE, and any other obnoxious or a**hole passengers they had to sit in proximity to are the things they mention, with legroom possibly being in there. I have flown on both Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies and have also not noticed the difference. Both seats are uncomfortably but tolerably narrow. US domestic F is probably the minimum amount of space I would actually consider noticeably comfortable as far as width goes. The 2-4" of extra legroom you get in Y+, on the other hand, makes a huge difference.
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:14 pm

In this 737 cross section the middle seat isn't the worst one. Zooming in you can see every seat has two armrests. Two armrest, god forbid! :yuck:
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:53 pm

keesje wrote:
In this 737 cross section the middle seat isn't the worst one. Zooming in you can see every seat has two armrests. Two armrest, god forbid! :yuck:


Judging by the diagram, it looks like a 737-800. Southwest in a single class has 175 seats. Your plane has about 125. That is a 30% difference in seating capacity. Is there a big market for people willing to pay 30% more for an extra armrest, inch of seat width and 4 inches of pitch? That sounds like premium economy. Very few airlines have more than 10% of their capacity as premium economy. That doesn't seem like enough of a market to fill an entire plane.
 
Flighty
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:12 pm

It probably depends on the market. The AA A321T (103 passenger?) is an example of a business market machine. Sure, I think there should be a 5Y section, but only 4-5 rows would ever pay money for it. Most people can barely pay their electric bill. 6Y is fine for most people.

I am not sure a full 5Y speaks to the real market, even if it speaks to some of us personally. Probably a 6J / 26Y+ / 110Y aircraft is more likely as an A321LR format IMO. I hope they don't instead go for 6J/170Y which they easily could, too.
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:17 pm

It's a 737-9 as indicated. With 123 seats it has a usefull range. Passengers of "DecentSeat Airways" would be schedule driven passengers, that pay enough anyway but have noticed airlines have made economy cabins more efficient over the years. Without asking/ telling them. They somehow like two armrest, a chat with colleagues and e.g stretching their legs.
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airzona11
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:21 pm

Reminds me of Midwest Express back in the 90s!

On certain routes, there might be a demand for it, but I think the reason that this has not taken hold in the market is that seat width is a not what consumers want. They want leg room. Hence the hundreds of aircraft (thousands?) with extra leg room seats.

An airline like OpenSkies might try it as they have Lay Flat, Angle Flat and Y on their narrow-body planes.

[quote="Strato2"
You keep telling yourself that doesn't make it true though. The difference is real and it's noticeable. You conveniently forget that it's not just you who has 0.9" more room to play with but also your seating neighbour(s). The combined effect is startling especially on the shoulder rubbing issue which is the worst aspect of narrow seats.[/quote]

As mentioned above, if this was a factor, a 2-3 arrangement would be what defines Y+ not 34-36" pitch.
 
Swadian
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:08 pm

Not for the entire cabin, but as Premium Economy, it could work. JAL has 737s with 5-abreast Class J.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:08 pm

keesje wrote:
It's a 737-9 as indicated. With 123 seats it has a usefull range. Passengers of "DecentSeat Airways" would be schedule driven passengers, that pay enough anyway but have noticed airlines have made economy cabins more efficient over the years. Without asking/ telling them. They somehow like two armrest, a chat with colleagues and e.g stretching their legs.


Why would these people not just fly premium economy on existing airlines?
 
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usxguy
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:24 pm

because some premium economy is still crap - same seats, just 3 to 4 inches of extra legroom. We need WIDTH, especially at the shoulders!
xx
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IMHO, an entire narrowbody MAX or NEO at 2x3 seating is just fantasy. Look at the small fraction of the cabin that is given over to PE and Y+ today, relative to J and Y. There just aren't enough people willing to pay for the floor space your design consumes.


If only there was an offer to pay for the floor space ! Y+ prices are much higher than Y price, not at all in proportion to the difference in occupied space.
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PHBVF
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:33 pm

Wouldn't a mix of Y+ and Y make more sense? Cram in those who care about nothing but price and undercut business class fares for those who want a bit more comfort/service.
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:36 pm

Sometimes we seem programmed to applaud what is clearly a downgrade, justify what's a scam and be liberal with the concepts of efficiency, profit maximization versus basic, well paid for decent service.

Image

I feel there's room for improvement, added value for passengers and enhanced customer loyalty.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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ua900
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:48 pm

Let's not consider products like UA Y+ to be comparable to LH PE for a split second. Completely different cabins / products you're paying for and getting.

keesje wrote:
Sometimes we seem programmed to applaud what is clearly a downgrade, justify what's a scam and be liberal with the concepts of efficiency, profit maximization versus basic, well paid for decent service.

Image

I feel there's room for improvement, added value for passengers and enhanced customer loyalty.


There is already a place for all your listed activities today, it's called J cabin and PE cabin, but as always people will be expected to pay a bit extra. How much exactly varies, but sometimes there are $1500 TATL trips in business or $800 in premium economy. Not too long ago, those were prices of high season economy tickets / slightly discounted economy tickets. Of course, if $400-500 is the new market expectation for economy a la Norwegian or Wow then you'll still get what you pay for.

A lot of people who pay J / PE prices for Y- seats are simply too picky when it comes to dates and times, they love some rush time of the year, don't necessarily do their homework when it comes to researching products on other carriers. A little flexibility goes a long way in getting people a cheaper ticket, in any cabin.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:16 am

]
keesje wrote:
Sometimes we seem programmed to applaud what is clearly a downgrade, justify what's a scam and be liberal with the concepts of efficiency, profit maximization versus basic, well paid for decent service.

Image

I feel there's room for improvement, added value for passengers and enhanced customer loyalty.


Why not just fly on this for the same price?


Image
 
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PITingres
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:33 am

keesje wrote:
...Try imagine explaining your manager such seat isn't good enough. You really need a Business Class lounge seat for this 6 hour flight, for double the price.


Double???? Where do you find J fares that are only double Y? I usually see about a 5x premium.
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aerolimani
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:31 am

I think the numbers actually interested in Y+, at time of booking, are not that great. I think a lot of current Y+ flyers are paid last minute upgrades when checking in. Trying to sell a whole plane of it means it's pre-sales only, no upgraders.

I think there's generally a pretty solid split in passengers There are those looking to pay the least, and who are willing to put up with regular Y. Then, there are those willing to pay more, in advance, for greater comfort. However, I think the willing crowd wants more for their money than some Y+ seats. Those putting up the extra cash, in advance, want lie-flats. I don't believe there's that many who fall in between these groups.
 
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:39 am

keesje wrote:
It's a 737-9 as indicated. With 123 seats it has a usefull range. Passengers of "DecentSeat Airways" would be schedule driven passengers, that pay enough anyway but have noticed airlines have made economy cabins more efficient over the years.


You draw pretty pictures but you're not analysis-driven. List all of the carriers that operate sub-4000 statute mile routes with aircraft that have 123 PE + Y+ seats, how many such aircraft they have, and compare that number to the worldwide 777 or A330 fleet. Could UA use a couple dozen from EWR with 16 lie-flat J, maybe 25 2x3 PE, 30 Y+, and 60Y? Maybe. Will these revolutionize TATL travel? I doubt it. As mentioned above, high fare travelers want network breadth and frequency.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:15 am

What's that in the middle? Central Park?
 
JoeCanuck
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:23 am

It will be happening. It's called the CSeries.
What the...?
 
Pacific
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Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2000 2:46 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:31 am

I'd hedge my bets on a 6-abreast, 150 seat CS100 or a 200-seat CS300 ULCC over any "improvements" in standard Y.
 
hz747300
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:34 am

I think the problem is that anything that removes seats from plane means that the airline is not picking up revenue for that real estate in flight. I like the atrium in the middle by the exit rows and have long thought that the exit rows should be completely clear (but see my first sentence). However, If the airlines could get away with it, they would suspend seats from the ceiling to dangle over the aisles.

One thing that has been proven time-and-time again is that the vast majority of people flying don't give a toss what type of plane it is, and they are extremely price sensitive. By all rights with inflation, tickets should likely be 30-50% higher at least, but the airlines cannot do that as demand would plummet.

I think a XLR CS100 to CS300 series would be a nice narrowbody long range ride, like an E2, including transatlantic where viable. Anyone who puts the CRJ on a long range flight, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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aeromoe
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:07 am

I realize this OPs diagram is only a conceptual diagram but IMHO there will NOT be that sort of angled lounge where the overwing emergency exits are. Overwing emergency exits need to be as accessible as possible.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:45 am

I would really hate to sit in 2C and get kicked, ran into, and screwed out of IFE the whole flight. But some people would probably think that's the best seat on the whole plane.
 
aviationaware
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:58 am

c933103 wrote:
BA still doing single class business TATL. Appaprently the key is to use smaller aircraft like A318 instead of 757 or 767, and be a large airline with large customer pool


Keep reading this argument about BA, but people seem totally oblivious of the fact that it just works on that one route because of the route not because of anything else. Same way Concorde worked properly & profitable on only that one route. There's a reason why the A318 service was never expanded to DC as was planned some time ago.
 
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BawliBooch
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:59 am

5-across on a 737/A320 sized narrowbody! 30 seats less in a typical all-Y layout. Pure fantasy!

However I do see more narrowbodies with decent pitch 32-33" and 6 across layouts opening more P-P markets from smaller stations like EDI or MAN.
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