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c933103
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:13 am

aviationaware wrote:
c933103 wrote:
BA still doing single class business TATL. Appaprently the key is to use smaller aircraft like A318 instead of 757 or 767, and be a large airline with large customer pool


Keep reading this argument about BA, but people seem totally oblivious of the fact that it just works on that one route because of the route not because of anything else. Same way Concorde worked properly & profitable on only that one route. There's a reason why the A318 service was never expanded to DC as was planned some time ago.

Might be a few other European cities if aorcraft with enough range. Similar configuration have been used on a few other similar routes outside TATL too like India - Japan which isn't a really big market. But yes there aren't too many routes. My point was that there are still some niche where such thing is working.
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:42 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
]
keesje wrote:
Sometimes we seem programmed to applaud what is clearly a downgrade, justify what's a scam and be liberal with the concepts of efficiency, profit maximization versus basic, well paid for decent service.

Image

I feel there's room for improvement, added value for passengers and enhanced customer loyalty.


Why not just fly on this for the same price?


Image


I checked out London-Boston pricing later this month on Norwegian (as you show) and BA. BA is about 20% more expensive (Premium Economy) but offers 4 flights a day instead of 4 flights a week and flies from LHR instead of Gatwick. Probably I would select BA here. The 4 daily frequencies goes a long way. (BTW BA Club is more then 3x more expensive but First only 20% more expensive than Club).

A spacey generous product 3-4 times a day between big places would IMO make a good chance. Passengers would feel respected again, a strong branding / value campaign around it could be a headache for the passenger stuffing majors now dominating.

I remember how everyone declared Jetblue crazy because they didn't do the same thing as Southwest and the others. Wasting space, TV, meals..
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:25 am

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
]
keesje wrote:
Sometimes we seem programmed to applaud what is clearly a downgrade, justify what's a scam and be liberal with the concepts of efficiency, profit maximization versus basic, well paid for decent service.

Image

I feel there's room for improvement, added value for passengers and enhanced customer loyalty.


Why not just fly on this for the same price?


Image


I checked out London-Boston pricing later this month on Norwegian (as you show) and BA. BA is about 20% more expensive (Premium Economy) but offers 4 flights a day instead of 4 flights a week and flies from LHR instead of Gatwick. Probably I would select BA here. The 4 daily frequencies goes a long way. (BTW BA Club is more then 3x more expensive but First only 20% more expensive than Club).

A spacey generous product 3-4 times a day between big places would IMO make a good chance. Passengers would feel respected again, a strong branding / value campaign around it could be a headache for the passenger stuffing majors now dominating.

I remember how everyone declared Jetblue crazy because they didn't do the same thing as Southwest and the others. Wasting space, TV, meals..


It sounds like you are a fan of premium economy. That's great. It is becoming more and more common, especially Transatlantic since the European airlines are embracing it. Is premium economy popular enough on its own for a plane to be dedicated 100% premium economy? I don't think so, but do wonder if any airline is bold enough to install 5 abreast premium economy on 737s or A320s. Most airlines have a 4 abreast domestic first class in the United States and European airlines for the most part use economy seats other than Turkish, Aeroflot and some others.
 
n5u
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:45 am

BawliBooch wrote:
5-across on a 737/A320 sized narrowbody! 30 seats less in a typical all-Y layout. Pure fantasy!

However I do see more narrowbodies with decent pitch 32-33" and 6 across layouts opening more P-P markets from smaller stations like EDI or MAN.



Wow! There is someone here that lives in the real world....5 abreast seating and a lounge ,yea right.... Why do you think that they are using narrowbodys in the first place is to save money! If they cared about how much room you had they would be using widebodys with the 2-3-2 or a 333-333-333. Oh and by the way if you think the single aisle suck to fly on for long flights Think how the cabin crews feal they call them "cattle cars"
 
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Polot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:02 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
]

Why not just fly on this for the same price?


Image


I checked out London-Boston pricing later this month on Norwegian (as you show) and BA. BA is about 20% more expensive (Premium Economy) but offers 4 flights a day instead of 4 flights a week and flies from LHR instead of Gatwick. Probably I would select BA here. The 4 daily frequencies goes a long way. (BTW BA Club is more then 3x more expensive but First only 20% more expensive than Club).

A spacey generous product 3-4 times a day between big places would IMO make a good chance. Passengers would feel respected again, a strong branding / value campaign around it could be a headache for the passenger stuffing majors now dominating.

I remember how everyone declared Jetblue crazy because they didn't do the same thing as Southwest and the others. Wasting space, TV, meals..


It sounds like you are a fan of premium economy. That's great. It is becoming more and more common, especially Transatlantic since the European airlines are embracing it. Is premium economy popular enough on its own for a plane to be dedicated 100% premium economy? I don't think so, but do wonder if any airline is bold enough to install 5 abreast premium economy on 737s or A320s. Most airlines have a 4 abreast domestic first class in the United States and European airlines for the most part use economy seats other than Turkish, Aeroflot and some others.


The nice thing about the 4 abreast seating is that it is good for domestic first but also a great option for PE for international flights. Just look at AA and DL's new PE and see how similar it is to their domestic first seats. I suspect when UA finally adds real PE the seats will be similar too. 5 abreast is insufficient for domestic first and would require giving up too much capacity to add it in addition to the domestic F for domestic planes, which means you are left with a orphan seat for one fleet type (international narrowbodies) that is worse than the premium option on domestic planes. At that point why wouldn't you just eliminate fleet complexity and use a domestic configured aircraft for the international flights? They have a 4 abreast seating option for "PE", Y with extra legroom, and standard Y.

keesje wrote:
A spacey generous product 3-4 times a day between big places would IMO make a good chance. Passengers would feel respected again, a strong branding / value campaign around it could be a headache for the passenger stuffing majors now dominating.

You are kind of jumping from point A to point C here while ignoring point B. You need to get an established foothold in the market first before you are flying 3-4 times a day to multiple intercontinental destinations causing headaches for the majors. I'm sure Eos, Maxjet, Silverjet, etc all had the same grand vision of a "spacey generous product 3-4 times a day between big places" that makes passengers "feel respected again" with "a strong branding / value campaign around it [that would]be a headache for the passenger stuffing majors now dominating" too.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:24 pm

In the British Airways example, premium economy represents about 10-15% of their total seats. There are more business class seats than premium economy. I am not really seeing where there would be demand for 125 premium economy seats without corresponding economy and business class demand.
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:23 pm

As an airline you want to stuff as many passengers in an aircraft, at the highest fares possible, at the lowest costs. That's the traditional airlines perspective.

Now and then a new concept breaks the ranks and everybody stumbles over each other claiming it never works. Catching the rest by surprise. EK building a hub in the desert, buying 100 A380s, LCC's creating their own traffic, Jetblue throwing out seats for nice to have's, Virgin reintroducing spacey bars on board, NWA upgrading 30yr old DC9s, AA's 4 class NB's. Stupid ideas until they work.

Image

A simplified single class M+ could attract business travelers, FF's and tourists alike. Smart O&D routes, simplified low costs service, trading payload for range, low cost aircraft in a increasingly transparent market place. Unique selling points could be no-curtains equality on board, informal crew service, free connectivity, spacey seats, tables and generous 2 pieces luggage allowance, Starbucks self-service and positive admosphere. You're not competing with your fellow passengers for armrest status and space. Everybody get his/hers.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/02/trave ... diversion/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4878482/


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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:31 pm

IPFreely wrote:
I wouldn't want to share 25A with that fly.

That's not fly, it's tonights dinner selection. :rotfl:
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Polot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:34 pm

keesje wrote:

But again, you are not explaining why all Premium Economy would be best. Why not have a standard Y cabin to capture passengers who do only care about price while also spreading your flight costs across more seats? That doesn't suddenly devalue your PE cabin.

We all recognize that PE is a growing segment that airlines are/should be paying more attention to. You have provided no legitimate justification on how all PE would beat out other airlines who have PE and Y (and maybe J too).
 
parapente
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:59 pm

I have to concur with the idea that it would make a nice Premium economy offering.Particularly as we are now looking at the A321NEO doing tatl.
You loose one seat across ( one sixth)but double the per seat price (the norm for Premium).So definitely higher overall profit.So yes I can see it for those sort of trips.Perhaps a couple of rows of seats behind the 2X2 business section.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:04 pm

Kind of reminds me of these guys who did not last very long



 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:07 pm

parapente wrote:
I have to concur with the idea that it would make a nice Premium economy offering.Particularly as we are now looking at the A321NEO doing tatl.
You loose one seat across ( one sixth)but double the per seat price (the norm for Premium).So definitely higher overall profit.So yes I can see it for those sort of trips.Perhaps a couple of rows of seats behind the 2X2 business section.


A couple rows absolutely makes sense. An entire plane? Not so sure about that.
 
chornedsnorkack
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:29 pm

How would 4 abreast CS100 compare?
 
737max8
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:28 am

WN 737-7 and 737-8 will be 32" pitch and 17.8" wide...better than half the transcon offerings out there in Y.

Just add meal services and good to go.
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:28 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Kind of reminds me of these guys who did not last very long





Maxjet were 95-100 seats in a 767. These are 123 passengers in 737-9.

Totally different CASM.
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aerolimani
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:15 am

keesje wrote:
Of course low cost will be important, but value for money will remain. Business class exists for a reason.

I'll tell you one cost that you could not keep down: advertising. First, you would have to make a massive sales pitch, educating people as to what you're offering. Beyond the initial thrust, I think you would have to be constantly reminding the general public why they should look away from the flight aggregators which, by default, sort results by cost. It's a complicated product you're trying to sell; legroom, seat width, onboard "lounge area," the slightly wider-than-the-rest middle seat, et cetera.
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 am

aerolimani wrote:
keesje wrote:
Of course low cost will be important, but value for money will remain. Business class exists for a reason.

I'll tell you one cost that you could not keep down: advertising. First, you would have to make a massive sales pitch, educating people as to what you're offering. Beyond the initial thrust, I think you would have to be constantly reminding the general public why they should look away from the flight aggregators which, by default, sort results by cost. It's a complicated product you're trying to sell; legroom, seat width, onboard "lounge area," the slightly wider-than-the-rest middle seat, et cetera.


Agree. Promotion, low pricing period should get passengers moving. I would go for a simple aggresive message. The Starbucks bar on board cobranding is a unique selling point that would be put at work.
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:57 pm

I think it's all peceptions.

See it as a big, defense, cost cut, instead of unnecessary frills. A kind of:

Down to Earth Business Class to fight off Atlantic Low Cost Carriers.

If you cut prices of Business tickets by half because your cost are twice as low, an entirely new segment might pop up.

E.g. made up out of savvy companies account, wealthy tourist, milleniums and no nonse IT folks..

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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:16 pm

My suspicion has always been that there is a underlying price dynamic. If the cheaper seats got comfortable enough people would not buy business class. This looks comfortable, and with fewer seats might even fly a little farther. Assign bins to seats, have daytime reclining shallow, and nighttime a little deeper. Voila!
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:06 pm

I would have a hard time defending I need a full pampering podded Business class seat, if a spacey seat with good luggage allowance, connectivity and food was available.. I would probably avoid the discussion.
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ro1960
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:19 pm

Why were TTL flights at 6 abreast not a problem until the 747 came around and why is it one now? Specially if you talk about the 737 MAX wich has the same cabin characteristics as its forefather, the 707.
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:24 pm

keesje wrote:
I would have a hard time defending I need a full pampering podded Business class seat, if a spacey seat with good luggage allowance, connectivity and food was available.. I would probably avoid the discussion.


It sounds like you are the perfect customer for premium economy. I know you had a miserable time flying in 17 inch wide standard economy seats.

What I fail to see is why a whole plane would be configured in a premium economy configuration. So far it is only about 10% of seats offered by airlines that have it. So if airline A operated a 737-9 like in your picture with 125 seats and charges $1000 for a Transatlantic round trip and airline B operated a 737-9'with 20 premium economy and 160 regular economy seats they could charge $1000 for premium economy and $700 for regular economy and earn more revenue. Premium economy is a great product for some, but it takes up 30% more space to offer 2 inch wider seats and 5 more inches of legroom. That extra space results in a ticket price 30% higher than regular economy. So far, the number of people paying for the extra room but not wanting full business class is less than 10% of the Transatlantic market. That segment seems too small for a dedicated plane, especially since a small premium economy cabin can be inserted into any Transatlantic plane.
 
luftaom
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:18 am

Stitch wrote:

BA seems to be doing well with their A318 service and while I expect the bulk of passengers are financial folks flying between Canary Wharf and Wall Street, the fact BA has a network on both ends (via themselves in Europe and AA in the United States) does not hurt, I imagine.


They have canceled half the services and now have one of their A318s permanently parked.
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:21 am

ro1960 wrote:
Why were TTL flights at 6 abreast not a problem until the 747 came around and why is it one now? Specially if you talk about the 737 MAX wich has the same cabin characteristics as its forefather, the 707.


How many First Class seats did transatlantic 707 and DC-8 planes have in 1960s?
 
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keesje
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:45 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
I would have a hard time defending I need a full pampering podded Business class seat, if a spacey seat with good luggage allowance, connectivity and food was available.. I would probably avoid the discussion.


It sounds like you are the perfect customer for premium economy. I know you had a miserable time flying in 17 inch wide standard economy seats.

What I fail to see is why a whole plane would be configured in a premium economy configuration. So far it is only about 10% of seats offered by airlines that have it. So if airline A operated a 737-9 like in your picture with 125 seats and charges $1000 for a Transatlantic round trip and airline B operated a 737-9'with 20 premium economy and 160 regular economy seats they could charge $1000 for premium economy and $700 for regular economy and earn more revenue. Premium economy is a great product for some, but it takes up 30% more space to offer 2 inch wider seats and 5 more inches of legroom. That extra space results in a ticket price 30% higher than regular economy. So far, the number of people paying for the extra room but not wanting full business class is less than 10% of the Transatlantic market. That segment seems too small for a dedicated plane, especially since a small premium economy cabin can be inserted into any Transatlantic plane.


I think you should get out of the existing booking class thinking. Remember Economy plus didn't exist a decade ago as didn't the current first. Even business is now better than the old first and bar service is back with many airlines. The public for such a new service can absolutely not be isolated to the current (widely varying) M Plus. It would acceptable for parts of the existimg Economy and Business class passengers.
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airbazar
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:41 am

keesje wrote:
Maybe something inbetween. Significantly better seats then economy class, reasonable seat counts per aircraft, good frequencies and way cheaper than a C-class seat with a legacy carrier twin aisle.

It's a pretty difficult selling argument to make to airline executives, IMO when consumers have been asking for lower and lower fares regardless of the quality of service.

Stitch wrote:
keesje wrote:
Single class business; several airlines tried & failed a decade ago.

BA seems to be doing well with their A318 service

It's ONE route out of their entire network. If anything it proves that single class business doesn't work.

Strato2 wrote:
Your average A320 already has much wider (18") seats at 6-abreast than the standard longhaul 10-ab 777 for example. No need for 5-abreast seating.

Even that is changing. While the A320 can support 18" wide seats, you will find a lot of airlines such as BA, EI, and AA with less than 18" wide seats. Wider seats are heavier and therefore cost more fuel. I suspect that a lot of airlines will opt for less than 18" wide seats on newer deliveries.

PITingres wrote:
Double???? Where do you find J fares that are only double Y? I usually see about a 5x premium.

They're out there but you have to buy in advance. I just flew with BA BOS-LHR-BLR for $2900 in J. The Y fare was $1,400. But I bought it 3 months in advance.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:18 pm

Since the headroom while seated is not a problem for most passengers, why not raise the height of the seats by, say, 3~4 inches?
That increases both the legroom and under-seat storage space without increasing the seat pitch.

What do we have to lose by adopting this simple high-rise seat configuration?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:23 pm

The Hawaiian A321 config will probably be role model for most users.
 
airbazar
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:25 pm

brianK73 wrote:
Since the headroom while seated is not a problem for most passengers, why not raise the height of the seats by, say, 3~4 inches?
That increases both the legroom and under-seat storage space without increasing the seat pitch.

What do we have to lose by adopting this simple high-rise seat configuration?


Go ahead an try to sit on a chair high enough that you can't rest your feet on the ground, and do it for a couple of hours, and see how it feels.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:45 pm

In the early jet age Y seats were 6 abreast and 35 inch pitch. Flying was a high point of most vacations. Comfortable. I can understand service cutting costs, but comfort has lost more. I suspect that seats were more comfortable, and that pitch helped a lot. In addition service included enough FAs that they were no where so near harried as they are now.

And in addition, if you go online looking for Y seats it is just about guaranteed that paying $100 or even a few hundred more will not get you a better flying experience. So why should anyone pay more? In EKs case, paying more for a 380 seat will add comfort I understand.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:09 pm

I honestly don't see anything less than 6 abreast coming for narrow bodies in Y, with Boeing being at 17.2" and Airbus at 18" standard. What I could see though are 737 MAX 10s with full business class seats and a larger Y section, while the Airbus A321neoLR might end up being the true 757 replacement. When EI gets its A321neoLRs, I could see them with 32" seat pitch (matching the A330s) or being configured similar to the BA A321 Club World planes.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:14 am

Kudos (Ancient Greek κῦδος “praise, renown”, pure, Hellenic era Greek in daily English) to Keesje for another great thread!

IMO, the LR versions of the CS100/CS300 and the E-jet equivalents are the real "dreamliner" metal, and a part J, part M+ cabin split, or all M+, could work P-to-P in business markets, EU/US, UK/US, and intra-US. The target catchments would be the second tier "international airports"... GSP/MUC comes immediately to mind ... and longhaul intra-US, e.g., SEA/CHS. The past week's events of a 100-year storm system through ATL are a dramatic illustration of why P-to-P would be attractive for program managers on tight timelines, whether intra-US, or TATL. I think the "mini-dreamliner" model needs Open Skies to work internationally, so CN, JP, and IN are out for now, and you'll never get an airport authority to add C&I for a single NB flight a day.. or a few a week.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies

IOW, the J/M+ model supersedes the current J/Y and J/Y+/Y TATL models, with breakeven on the M+ and profit on the J.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:19 am

Strato2 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.


It's all smoke and mirrors. The new seats are 17.8" and even that is achieved by making the armrests super thin.
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/04/1 ... h-numbers/


And counting space under the armrest as part of the seat bottom.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:39 am

rbavfan wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Southwest Airlines is installing 18" wide seats on their 737MAX aircraft so perhaps other carriers will follow.


It's all smoke and mirrors. The new seats are 17.8" and even that is achieved by making the armrests super thin.
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/04/1 ... h-numbers/


And counting space under the armrest as part of the seat bottom.


An improvement over 17" on the current 737s (31" seat pitch on the 733s and 737s, 32" on the 738s).I presume a 32" pitch here. As for the typical airline seat on a 737 MAX, I would expect 17.3" to be the norm, maybe 17.5".

As for the C-Series, Delta is planning on a seat with 18.2" width (and standard 31"-32" seat pitch) in Y. I would presume most airlines would choose a narrower seat (Swiss chose the same 17.3" seat used on all of its planes up to the 777).
 
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ro1960
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Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:36 pm

chornedsnorkack wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Why were TTL flights at 6 abreast not a problem until the 747 came around and why is it one now? Specially if you talk about the 737 MAX wich has the same cabin characteristics as its forefather, the 707.


How many First Class seats did transatlantic 707 and DC-8 planes have in 1960s?


I couldn't give you the exact figures but it is true that early on there was more First Class seats than Coach before the ratio switched around. Yet the Coach seating was at 6 abreast. So same situation as the 737 and A320 of nowadays. Or even the 757 that has been flying TATL flights for decades.
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chornedsnorkack
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:38 pm

ro1960 wrote:
chornedsnorkack wrote:
How many First Class seats did transatlantic 707 and DC-8 planes have in 1960s?


I couldn't give you the exact figures but it is true that early on there was more First Class seats than Coach before the ratio switched around. Yet the Coach seating was at 6 abreast. So same situation as the 737 and A320 of nowadays. Or even the 757 that has been flying TATL flights for decades.


Yes - 6 abreast is since 1958.
Also, what was the standard coach pitch in 1958? 32´´, or 34´´?
 
quiet1
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: Not So Cramped NarrowBody Transatlantic Service.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:06 pm

One factor to consider when comparing the pitch of the original 707s/DC8s to today's narrow bodies, is that the seat backs were thicker which adds to seat pitch (the measurement from a point in a seat to the same point in the seat in front of it.) They might have been as much as 2" thicker than today's slimline seats, no?

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