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ITB
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U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Does anyone have information, a link, or a list detailing the respective CPE (Cost Per Enplanement) for airports in the United States?

Although an airport's CPE figure is often tucked away in its financial reports and is usually known only to aviation professionals, perhaps it shouldn't be, as it's a major factor in determining ticket prices as well as an airport's competitiveness in the marketplace. I think it would enlightening and useful to use the thread to compare the various CPEs at airports in the United States.

For instance, what's the CPE at JKF and EWR? Or ATL and CLT? And so forth.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:06 pm

It going to be a fluid number that changes every year and varies by airline.

Airline A leases 1 gate and 3 counters and has 3 A320s per day (450 Passengers) will pay for the gates, counters and 3 landing fees

Airline B leases 1 gate 3 counters and had 6 E175s per day (450 passengers) will have 3 more landing fees (slightly higher CPE)

Airline C leases 1 gate and 3 counters and has 6 A320s per day (900 passengers) will have more in landing fees cut a lower CPE because they are pumping through more passengers.

Airlines that reduce service at an airport should know better than to complain about a higher CPE because it is typically their own fault
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
ITB
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:18 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
It going to be a fluid number that changes every year and varies by airline.


Yes, CPE is adjusted every year by an airport's management. However, I'm not sure a particular airport's CPE varies by airline, but if I'm wrong let me know.
 
ITB
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:27 pm

OK. I just found some CPE stats via an online search. The material is two years old, but seems to be of some use to compare the various CPEs at U.S. airports.

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finan ... -passenger
 
NolaMD88fan
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:52 pm

I use this website to get the CPE figures. https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm

Typically, all of the large and medium hub airports as defined by the FAA have reported financial information to the FAA by July.

Here is a listing I compiled back in July for 2015 data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
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LAXintl
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:00 pm

Keep in mind besides base average CPE there are a smorgasbord of potential additional charges/fees based on how the airline decides to operate which can easily double, or triple the base fees.

Everything from facilities leases, technology charges, communications, utilities, or even random things like janitorial or trash collection fees vary and add up rapidly.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:43 pm

The complete list from 2015 filed by the top 180 airports with the FAA. Ask me and i'll tell you.
Airport CPE
ATL $2.86
ORD$14.65
LAX $14.07
DFW$8.75
JFK $24.62
DEN $11.97
SFO $16.60
CLT $3.04
LAS $11.79
PHX $5.99
MIA $19.93
SEA $10.12
IAH $10.27
MCO$7.73
EWR$28.31
MSP$6.17
DTW$9.86
BOS$14.54
PHL $13.87
LGA $18.04
FLL $5.84
DCA $13.32
BWI $9.86
MDW$7.54
SLC $3.92
IAD $23.61
SAN $10.29
HNL $9.91
TPA $5.20
PDX $10.72
RDU$6.91
DAL $3.59
STL $14.42
HOU$6.46
AUS $8.12
BNA $7.63
OAK $11.32
MSY$7.75
MCI $7.75
SNA $9.91
SJC $9.82
SMF$15.50
SAT $7.00
RSW$7.61
PIT $16.73
IND $9.22
CLE $17.76
CMH$7.22
MKE$9.34
OGG$7.06
CVG$9.18
BDL $9.20
JAX $7.37
ANC$11.02
ABQ$7.64
BUF $10.58
ONT $10.51
OMA$6.61
BUR$2.32
OKC$5.88
MEM$12.07
RIC $5.75
SDF $6.56
RNO$8.41
CHS$4.65
TUS $8.64
GEG$5.48
KOA $4.77
BOI $4.57
ORF $8.16
LIH $5.11
TUL $7.28
BHM$13.57
ALB $7.12
GRR$9.46
LGB $8.93
SFB $2.03
DSM$8.67
DAY $6.79
MHT$13.10
SAV $7.93
LIT $9.68
SYR $13.94
PSP $3.52
GSP $6.26
MYR$7.66
TYS $8.26
MSN$8.65
PWM$7.70
GSO$9.20
PNS $8.26
CAK $3.35
PIE $1.65
ICT $6.42
HPN$22.06
FAT $8.12
ITO $4.76
XNA $6.06
LEX $9.41
SRQ$11.15
BTV $6.60
COS$9.82
MDT$15.03
CID $6.95
CAE $9.18
HSV $15.44
MAF$3.02
BZN $2.92
JAN $11.04
LBB $8.01
EUG$6.97
ECP $5.65
FAR $3.66
BIL $6.20
PGD$0.00
FNT $2.38
MFE $5.10
AVL $5.88
ILM $4.50
MLI $9.75
FWA$6.64
CRP $5.70
EYW$10.22
MSO$6.52
TLH $10.38
GPT $14.47
PIA $3.09
SBA $13.52
DAB $6.84
ROA$6.52
CHO$4.29
RDM$5.69
RAP $7.64
HRL $6.60
BIS $5.94
PHF $2.52
BGR$4.31
CRW$11.09
MLB$3.88
FAY $2.96
TRI $9.69
AVP $8.51
GJT $7.96
GNV$6.72
EVV $8.69
LRD $1.72
BMI $2.06
GTF $4.84
DRO$3.15
MOT$2.96
MGM$6.50
LAN $23.69
LNK $6.76
AEX $1.86
SBP $6.52
GRK$3.22
GFK $6.27
SWF$5.42
DLH $6.99
MKK$2.21
RFD $3.05
HTS $4.31
HLN $7.88
CMI $4.45
TOL $4.66
ERI $24.62
SPI $1.52
BRO$4.86
LYH $4.21
LNY $4.72
VLD $2.86
ABY $4.35
RDD$4.57
PQI $30.97
ASE
JAC
PBG
SHV
TWF
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:01 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
It going to be a fluid number that changes every year and varies by airline.

Airline A leases 1 gate and 3 counters and has 3 A320s per day (450 Passengers) will pay for the gates, counters and 3 landing fees

Airline B leases 1 gate 3 counters and had 6 E175s per day (450 passengers) will have 3 more landing fees (slightly higher CPE)

Airline C leases 1 gate and 3 counters and has 6 A320s per day (900 passengers) will have more in landing fees cut a lower CPE because they are pumping through more passengers.

Airlines that reduce service at an airport should know better than to complain about a higher CPE because it is typically their own fault


These are all convoluted statements. Airports file CPE numbers as defined in the industry. CPE is the "Cost Per Enplanement" at an airport which is the total passenger aeronautical charges levied by the airport divided by the total revenue enplanements. Airline costs vary but that is reflected in CASM or Cost per Available Seat Mile. Airlines care about costs but they do not look at their own "CPE" because the relevant figure is CASM against RASM. They do look at their own costs as it applies towards profitability but an airlines cost also includes in-to-plane fueling fees, ground handling, cargo handling, etc, etc.etc.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
PVD757
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:19 pm

Airlines absolutely care about their individual CPE at a particular airport also known as nominal CPE. The overall airport CPE is a basic measure of the cost to do business at that particular airport. Rating agencies, the FAA, the airport itself, and airport bond financing matters tend to care about the overall CPE.
 
ITB
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:32 pm

NolaMD88fan wrote:
I use this website to get the CPE figures. https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm

Thank you!

billreid wrote:
The complete list from 2015 filed by the top 180 airports with the FAA. Ask me and i'll tell you.
Airport CPE
ATL $2.86
ORD$14.65
LAX $14.07
...

Great! The list really allows for easy comparison between airports.
 
tomaheath
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:43 pm

I can't but notice how high MHT (my home airport) is.
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:55 pm

tomaheath wrote:
I can't but notice how high MHT (my home airport) is.


Yup. that is what they filed. $13.10 is high whereas their marketing costs were reletively low. They also filed 70FTE which works out to 14,760 enplanements per Full Time Equivalent Employee.

Some of the Airports are disturbing probably the most for me is Lansing MI. @ $23.69 CPE what gets me is the $5.98 per Enplanement for Marketing. Most airports are under 25cents marketing per enplanement.


I compiled the list myself from the filed data.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:01 am

PVD757 wrote:
Airlines absolutely care about their individual CPE at a particular airport also known as nominal CPE. The overall airport CPE is a basic measure of the cost to do business at that particular airport. Rating agencies, the FAA, the airport itself, and airport bond financing matters tend to care about the overall CPE.


Yes you are talking about a different thing. They do care in principle however almost every airline looks at airport costs from a systemwide perspective because things like contract employees, union requirements need to play in. It is for this reason airlines look at Total costs at an airport and this includes station costs. In your original post you quoted seats not emplanements, thats where I lost you because E is not for Seats.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
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klm617
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:38 am

billreid wrote:
The complete list from 2015 filed by the top 180 airports with the FAA. Ask me and i'll tell you.
Airport CPE
ATL $2.86
ORD$14.65
LAX $14.07
DFW$8.75
JFK $24.62
DEN $11.97
SFO $16.60
CLT $3.04
LAS $11.79
PHX $5.99
MIA $19.93
SEA $10.12
IAH $10.27
MCO$7.73
EWR$28.31
MSP$6.17
DTW$9.86
BOS$14.54
PHL $13.87
LGA $18.04
FLL $5.84
DCA $13.32
BWI $9.86
MDW$7.54
SLC $3.92
IAD $23.61
SAN $10.29
HNL $9.91
TPA $5.20
PDX $10.72
RDU$6.91
DAL $3.59
STL $14.42
HOU$6.46
AUS $8.12
BNA $7.63
OAK $11.32
MSY$7.75
MCI $7.75
SNA $9.91
SJC $9.82
SMF$15.50
SAT $7.00
RSW$7.61
PIT $16.73
IND $9.22
CLE $17.76
CMH$7.22
MKE$9.34
OGG$7.06
CVG$9.18
BDL $9.20
JAX $7.37
ANC$11.02
ABQ$7.64
BUF $10.58
ONT $10.51
OMA$6.61
BUR$2.32
OKC$5.88
MEM$12.07
RIC $5.75
SDF $6.56
RNO$8.41
CHS$4.65
TUS $8.64
GEG$5.48
KOA $4.77
BOI $4.57
ORF $8.16
LIH $5.11
TUL $7.28
BHM$13.57
ALB $7.12
GRR$9.46
LGB $8.93
SFB $2.03
DSM$8.67
DAY $6.79
MHT$13.10
SAV $7.93
LIT $9.68
SYR $13.94
PSP $3.52
GSP $6.26
MYR$7.66
TYS $8.26
MSN$8.65
PWM$7.70
GSO$9.20
PNS $8.26
CAK $3.35
PIE $1.65
ICT $6.42
HPN$22.06
FAT $8.12
ITO $4.76
XNA $6.06
LEX $9.41
SRQ$11.15
BTV $6.60
COS$9.82
MDT$15.03
CID $6.95
CAE $9.18
HSV $15.44
MAF$3.02
BZN $2.92
JAN $11.04
LBB $8.01
EUG$6.97
ECP $5.65
FAR $3.66
BIL $6.20
PGD$0.00
FNT $2.38
MFE $5.10
AVL $5.88
ILM $4.50
MLI $9.75
FWA$6.64
CRP $5.70
EYW$10.22
MSO$6.52
TLH $10.38
GPT $14.47
PIA $3.09
SBA $13.52
DAB $6.84
ROA$6.52
CHO$4.29
RDM$5.69
RAP $7.64
HRL $6.60
BIS $5.94
PHF $2.52
BGR$4.31
CRW$11.09
MLB$3.88
FAY $2.96
TRI $9.69
AVP $8.51
GJT $7.96
GNV$6.72
EVV $8.69
LRD $1.72
BMI $2.06
GTF $4.84
DRO$3.15
MOT$2.96
MGM$6.50
LAN $23.69
LNK $6.76
AEX $1.86
SBP $6.52
GRK$3.22
GFK $6.27
SWF$5.42
DLH $6.99
MKK$2.21
RFD $3.05
HTS $4.31
HLN $7.88
CMI $4.45
TOL $4.66
ERI $24.62
SPI $1.52
BRO$4.86
LYH $4.21
LNY $4.72
VLD $2.86
ABY $4.35
RDD$4.57
PQI $30.97
ASE
JAC
PBG
SHV
TWF



Well now we know why Delta pushes so many people through that horrific hub they must sure have some kind of sweetheart deal with Atlanta.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
cledaybuck
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:47 am

ITB wrote:
Does anyone have information, a link, or a list detailing the respective CPE (Cost Per Enplanement) for airports in the United States?

Although an airport's CPE figure is often tucked away in its financial reports and is usually known only to aviation professionals, perhaps it shouldn't be, as it's a major factor in determining ticket prices as well as an airport's competitiveness in the marketplace. I think it would enlightening and useful to use the thread to compare the various CPEs at airports in the United States.

For instance, what's the CPE at JKF and EWR? Or ATL and CLT? And so forth.
CPE is not a major factor in determining ticket prices.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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haynflyer
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:42 am

I think cledaybuck has a very good point and would take it further to say that ticket prices are not usually based on costs but on what the market will allow.

Having been a revenue/pricing manager in a related travel industry field, I was shocked at how we arbitrarily set prices without regard to costs. We relied more upon how much our competition was charging and priced accordingly. Indeed, the only time we considered cost was when contracted/corporate rates were being calculated. Even then, some costs were left out to be competitive or we used incremental cost models.

So while there may be some correlation between CPE and fares, I don't think there is a causal relationship. Indeed, an airline might make up for high CPE fees simply by reducing the number of FF redemptions (or other revenue diluters) and not touch fares.

Just my $0.02.
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:10 am

Why is the CPE lower in HI where everything is more expensive while it is higher at larger airports with greater economies of scale? Looking at LAX, you wonder where all that money is going.
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:36 pm

haynflyer wrote:
I think cledaybuck has a very good point and would take it further to say that ticket prices are not usually based on costs but on what the market will allow.

Having been a revenue/pricing manager in a related travel industry field, I was shocked at how we arbitrarily set prices without regard to costs. We relied more upon how much our competition was charging and priced accordingly. Indeed, the only time we considered cost was when contracted/corporate rates were being calculated. Even then, some costs were left out to be competitive or we used incremental cost models.

So while there may be some correlation between CPE and fares, I don't think there is a causal relationship. Indeed, an airline might make up for high CPE fees simply by reducing the number of FF redemptions (or other revenue diluters) and not touch fares.

Just my $0.02.



I agree with a caveat. CPE doesn't directly factor into ticket price, the airlines charge the highest price times seats to reach a maximum revenue level. The airlines do watch from a service perspective ... if an airport is too expensive they may decide not to serve or not to add more service. A really good example in SRQ in the west coast of Florida. Since its present CEO has been there it is the only small-hub or larger airport in Florida with Negative growth over a 15 year period. The reason is the CPE is significantly higher and the airlines can rationalize that the passengers can be won at other airports with lower costs.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:39 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Why is the CPE lower in HI where everything is more expensive while it is higher at larger airports with greater economies of scale? Looking at LAX, you wonder where all that money is going.


many items play into CPE. Debt, costs, weather, employees and service levels. The worst are the NYC airports who are grandfathered to actually transferring money off airport. This applies to a handful of airports that screw the system because Congress allows them to do so. LA may be in that group. Not Sure?
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
billreid wrote:
The complete list from 2015 filed by the top 180 airports with the FAA. Ask me and i'll tell you.
Airport CPE
ATL $2.86

Well now we know why Delta pushes so many people through that horrific hub they must sure have some kind of sweetheart deal with Atlanta.


Delta doesn't have a sweetheart deal. CLT is also a great deal for AA.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
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enilria
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:08 pm

ITB wrote:
I think it would enlightening and useful to use the thread to compare the various CPEs at airports in the United States.

To be fair, CPE means very little because it isn't really comparable at all.

The following items are examples of things that may be included in CPE or may be excluded from CPE if they are paid for directly by the airlines:

Terminal cleaning/janitorial (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Passenger screening (some airports have opted out and taken it over from TSA)
Ramp tower staffing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Wheelchair services (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Terminal capital cost (may be financed by airport bonds or non-airport bonds which are excluded from CPE)
Aircraft deicing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Deicing fluid purchasing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Disposal of deicing/environmental (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Employee parking transportation (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Terminal to terminal transportation (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Jetway acquisition/maintenance (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Airline clubs (some multi-airline clubs are managed by the airport directly or through a sub-contractor)
Passenger handling/check-in/ramp (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport like in HPN; very common outside the USA)
Furniture, interior finish of airline leased spaces for a club/boarding lounge/offices (sometimes the airport pays for everything down to the coffee machine and leases it back to the airline, sometimes the airline pays for everything)
...
and the list goes on...

So, CPE is all there is to go on, but it really means very little, and even less once you leave the USA and the airport revenue model changes dramatically.

ITB wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
It going to be a fluid number that changes every year and varies by airline.


Yes, CPE is adjusted every year by an airport's management. However, I'm not sure a particular airport's CPE varies by airline, but if I'm wrong let me know.

At an airport like IAD it wouldn't be surprising for F9 to have a CPE of $6 and EK to have a CPE of $42. This happens because there are a lot of international only fees and an airline may lease a large amount of space for a club.
 
blockski
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:27 pm

enilria wrote:
At an airport like IAD it wouldn't be surprising for F9 to have a CPE of $6 and EK to have a CPE of $42. This happens because there are a lot of international only fees and an airline may lease a large amount of space for a club.


Yep. CPE is a metric calculated after the fact; it's like saying the average customer at McDonalds spent X dollars. That doesn't tell you anything about the actual purchasing decisions of any one customer (is it lunch? breakfast? How hungry are they? Are they buying for themselves or for a family? drive thru or in-store? etc)

Using IAD as an example, MWAA (understandably) charges different rents for different spaces. The C/D gates are relatively cheap for United, given their relatively poor amenities. The A/B gates are more expensive. The Z gates are also cheap.

Then there are the variable costs: EK is likely paying a lot because they're paying high landing fees with their A380; which will be a lot different than F9's narrowbodies. And, as you mentioned, the international arrivals have higher fees to offset the costs imposed by CBP.

And then there's volume. A big reason why both ATL and CLT appear so cheap is because they are both large hubs, with their respective tenants pushing a ton of traffic through them. Delta only pays to lease that gate once; if they can get a lot of turns out of it, then that's going to be a much lower cost per enplanement than an airline doing one, two, or three turns a day at a gate.
 
jetero
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:15 pm

ITB wrote:
it's a major factor in determining ticket prices


No it's not.

ITB wrote:
I think it would enlightening and useful to use the thread to compare the various CPEs at airports in the United States.


What would be enlightening for most would be that the average CPE isn't a rate charged by airport operators but is rather a calculated metric and has nothing to do with fares.

tomaheath wrote:
I can't but notice how high MHT (my home airport) is.


Because the denominator (enplanements) is so low for what the facility was originally designed for because no one saw what is happening today in BOS 15 years ago.

billreid wrote:
Some of the Airports are disturbing probably the most for me is Lansing MI. @ $23.69 CPE what gets me is the $5.98 per Enplanement for Marketing. Most airports are under 25cents marketing per enplanement.


That confuses the matter further because that's an opex ratio, and not necessarily paid for by airlines and included in the calculation of CPE. Depends on how the rates and charges work.

Regardless, it is a terrible result for LAN and does appear from the FAA data to be largely opex-driven.

haynflyer wrote:
Indeed, an airline might make up for high CPE fees simply by reducing the number of FF redemptions (or other revenue diluters) and not touch fares.


How in the world would that help anything?

enilria wrote:
The following items are examples of things that may be included in CPE or may be excluded from CPE if they are paid for directly by the airlines:


The biggest variable (aside from the scope of facilities) is the airline agreement, which is negotiated locally between the airport operator and the airline and determines what costs are paid by the airline and what are the airport operator's full responsibility. At plenty of airports, for example, the airlines get all of the net profits from the parking operation (in return for having full responsibility for the costs). Furniture and coffee is a very low on the list as a driver.

blockski wrote:
And then there's volume. A big reason why both ATL and CLT appear so cheap is because they are both large hubs, with their respective tenants pushing a ton of traffic through them. Delta only pays to lease that gate once; if they can get a lot of turns out of it, then that's going to be a much lower cost per enplanement than an airline doing one, two, or three turns a day at a gate.


Yep, half the calculation is the denominator, and a big one helps. BUT, DFW is in the same bucket activity-wise and is in the lower midrange due to the major facility investments since 2000 and the great inefficiencies of its terminal layout.

So at ATL you get a new runway, a new international terminal, and related airfield and terminal improvements for something like around $3.5 billion over this time over a very large base of passengers (almost two-thirds more).

DFW spent close to $2 billion on Skylink and Terminal D and is about to wrap up another $3 billion of spending on TRIP, and is now has its hand out for $10 billion more. All with a lower number of passengers than ATL.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/busin ... 77318.html

I doubt CLT even spent a billion over this period of time.

Some may say DL does have a "sweetheart" deal in ATL in terms of control over the capex of the airport. Others may say it's perfectly appropriate that DL gets such control. It just means reduced opportunities for competition from other airlines because there won't be a large-scale investment in new gates like the South Gate Complex that was included in the 2000 master plan.

billreid wrote:
I compiled the list myself from the filed data.


Why not just give him the link?

Knock yourself out.

https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm

Use Form 127.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:41 pm

AAL........................................DAL.......................................UAL
DFW 8.75.......................... ATL 2.86............................. EWR 28.31
CLT 3.04.......................... DTW 9.86..............................ORD 14.65
MIA 19.93..........................MSP 6.17..............................IAH 10.27
ORD 14.65........................SEA 10.12..............................DEN 11.97
PHL 13.87.........................JFK 24.62..............................SFO 16.60
DCA 13.32 ........................LGA 18.04 .............................IAD 23.61

A little perspective on hub cost/pax. for the Big 3. United = ouch!
 
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enilria
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:56 pm

enilria wrote:
Furniture, interior finish of airline leased spaces for a club/boarding lounge/offices (sometimes the airport pays for everything down to the coffee machine and leases it back to the airline, sometimes the airline pays for everything)

jetero wrote:
enilria wrote:
The following items are examples of things that may be included in CPE or may be excluded from CPE if they are paid for directly by the airlines:

The biggest variable (aside from the scope of facilities) is the airline agreement, which is negotiated locally between the airport operator and the airline and determines what costs are paid by the airline and what are the airport operator's full responsibility. At plenty of airports, for example, the airlines get all of the net profits from the parking operation (in return for having full responsibility for the costs). Furniture and coffee is a very low on the list as a driver.

The interior fit and finish of an airline club can easily be to $10m. Debt service and amortization over 10 years on the interior items would be $125,000/month. If an airline has 500 int'l passengers per day it increases the airline's CPE by $8.33 vs. paying it out of their own pocket which would not be in their CPE. Just the "coffee", as you call it, is almost more than the average U.S. airport CPE. It's always better to run the numbers rather than just flippantly say it's nothing...
 
SonaSounds
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:07 pm

Working for an airport where I calculate CPE for perspective/current airlines and routes almost daily, I can tell you that most of these numbers are not even close to being accurate. Way to many factors go into calculating CPE which are not taken into account here like domestic vs international, aircraft size, passenger count, load factor, etc...
 
ITB
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:41 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
AAL........................................DAL.......................................UAL
DFW 8.75.......................... ATL 2.86............................. EWR 28.31
CLT 3.04.......................... DTW 9.86..............................ORD 14.65
MIA 19.93..........................MSP 6.17..............................IAH 10.27
ORD 14.65........................SEA 10.12..............................DEN 11.97
PHL 13.87.........................JFK 24.62..............................SFO 16.60
DCA 13.32 ........................LGA 18.04 .............................IAD 23.61

A little perspective on hub cost/pax. for the Big 3. United = ouch!


According to MWAA's most recent budget, the 2017 CPE at IAD for signatory airlines will be $18.97. At DCA, it's $14.12. In recent years, UA has repeatedly expressed concern about the high CPE at IAD. It has been a factor in why they have trimmed flights there. This year and next the Commonwealth of Virginia is providing $25 million each year to MWAA to help lower IAD's CPE.

http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files/2017_budget.pdf (page 57)

At hub airports, the CPE metric is particularly pertinent as the higher the figure goes, the less incentive there is to bring a connecting passenger through the facility. At some point, the airlines need to recover their costs, and the only way to do that is via higher fares. Hence, why IAD is known to be somewhat pricey compared to BWI and DCA.

With the new runway construction at ORD, CPE is projected to rise significantly. I'd like to see the 2017 figure and the projections for 2018 through 2020.
 
727LOVER
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:54 pm

YEP

TPA $5.20

PIE $1.65

SRQ$11.15

PGD$0.00

RSW$7.61


Um Hum,....

Want to know why SRQ is struggling?....

right THERE !!!!!
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
masseybrown
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:58 pm

jetero wrote:
Why not just give him the link?

Knock yourself out.

https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm

Use Form 127.


The FAA CATS database has lots more than just CPE; it's a mine of interesting airport financial info. Keeping in mind the caveats other posters have pointed out, it's great for seeing trends and relative differences. And, yes, individual airlines' costs can vary widely from the CPE average. Airports are supposed to file annual data with CATS by the end of March of the following year; unfortunately many (lazy?) airport managements use the routinely granted extension and file at June 30th.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Mean while DAL runs all those international flights out of JFK.

DAL
JFK 24.62
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:43 pm

ITB wrote:
At hub airports, the CPE metric is particularly pertinent as the higher the figure goes, the less incentive there is to bring a connecting passenger through the facility. At some point, the airlines need to recover their costs, and the only way to do that is via higher fares. Hence, why IAD is known to be somewhat pricey compared to BWI and DCA.
This is not true. CPE is not like a tax that is charged on each passenger. If an airline brings more passengers through an airport, the CPE will go down, all else staying the same.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
ITB
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:59 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
ITB wrote:
At hub airports, the CPE metric is particularly pertinent as the higher the figure goes, the less incentive there is to bring a connecting passenger through the facility. At some point, the airlines need to recover their costs, and the only way to do that is via higher fares. Hence, why IAD is known to be somewhat pricey compared to BWI and DCA.
This is not true. CPE is not like a tax that is charged on each passenger. If an airline brings more passengers through an airport, the CPE will go down, all else staying the same.

Well, yes, to a degree. However, if an airline has multiple hubs, and one hub has a CPE of, say, $24, and another hub is only $11, and if other factors are roughly equal, which hub will it be more desirable, cost wise, to funnel connecting passengers through?
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:32 pm

ITB wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
ITB wrote:
At hub airports, the CPE metric is particularly pertinent as the higher the figure goes, the less incentive there is to bring a connecting passenger through the facility. At some point, the airlines need to recover their costs, and the only way to do that is via higher fares. Hence, why IAD is known to be somewhat pricey compared to BWI and DCA.
This is not true. CPE is not like a tax that is charged on each passenger. If an airline brings more passengers through an airport, the CPE will go down, all else staying the same.

Well, yes, to a degree. However, if an airline has multiple hubs, and one hub has a CPE of, say, $24, and another hub is only $11, and if other factors are roughly equal, which hub will it be more desirable, cost wise, to funnel connecting passengers through?


Yes. Exactly what so many people don't understand. If the average cost is $10 per pax higher at Airport A vs Airport B and they serve 50 flights at both with an average of 125 pax per flight the cost differential is a whopping $2,281,250 more at decision planning time. At that point the airline should consider a plan to increase one airport to 80 per day and reduce the other to 20.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:45 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
Working for an airport where I calculate CPE for perspective/current airlines and routes almost daily, I can tell you that most of these numbers are not even close to being accurate. Way to many factors go into calculating CPE which are not taken into account here like domestic vs international, aircraft size, passenger count, load factor, etc...


Why do you have a difficult time understanding this reflects an airports cost across the board.
Again, CPE is TOTAL passenger aviation fees charged divided by TOTAL revenue passengers served.
Yes and airlines fees differ based on the operation, however the CPE is a valid calculation that the Airlines both understand and use as a reference.Most cases where people say its not accurate refers to an airport who is non-competitive and has a dreadful CPE.
No matter what arguments you come up with, CPE accurately represents the cost structure at the airport as applied against all airline customers.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:48 pm

727LOVER wrote:
YEP

TPA $5.20

PIE $1.65

SRQ$11.15

PGD$0.00

RSW$7.61


Um Hum,....

Want to know why SRQ is struggling?....

right THERE !!!!!


You got it. The SRQ board of directors are clueless.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:02 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Mean while DAL runs all those international flights out of JFK.

DAL
JFK 24.62


I actually met with an Airline on this. PONYNJ is grandfathered by the DOT and actually takes a staggering $6.00 per enplanements off airport into Port Authority coffers. The Port Authority really is profiting in NY. The assumption is the Airlines have no choice so the Port Authority can charge what it wishes. What disturbs me is the terminals are all Airline funded so this figure is even worse than it appears on the surface. Beyond this PONYNJ airports have the highest employee costs filed nationwide.

Nationwide Personnel Compensation & Benefits / FTE: $101,134
JFK Personnel Compensation & Benefits / FTE: $456,689 (Filing 427 FTE with $195,000,000 fees) It appears this is a revenue diversion issue.

But come on $456K for PA employee. WHOA.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
SonaSounds
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:04 pm

billreid wrote:
SonaSounds wrote:
Working for an airport where I calculate CPE for perspective/current airlines and routes almost daily, I can tell you that most of these numbers are not even close to being accurate. Way to many factors go into calculating CPE which are not taken into account here like domestic vs international, aircraft size, passenger count, load factor, etc...


Why do you have a difficult time understanding this reflects an airports cost across the board.
Again, CPE is TOTAL passenger aviation fees charged divided by TOTAL revenue passengers served.
Yes and airlines fees differ based on the operation, however the CPE is a valid calculation that the Airlines both understand and use as a reference.Most cases where people say its not accurate refers to an airport who is non-competitive and has a dreadful CPE.
No matter what arguments you come up with, CPE accurately represents the cost structure at the airport as applied against all airline customers.


Obviously you don't calculate CPE as CPE at the airport I work at is calculated based on 3 parts: 20% fixed cost distributed evenly across all carriers, 40% based on flight ops, and 40% based on enplaned passengers. There is also a third party cost we add in for certain terminals depending if their is a private company who handles the gates for that specific terminal.

I am also very familiar with how our competitors calculate CPE and dividing "TOTAL passenger aviation fees charged divided by TOTAL revenue passengers served" is not remotely close to how anyone comes up with it.

There are many factors than bring down the airlines CPE that may have been negotiated into the lease and use agreements to help sell the airlines on a new idea: i.e. including certain parking revenue that will be deducted from the passenger portion of the CPE in order to get the airlines to sign off on building a new janitorial building for airport maintenance.

You can do what you are suggesting but you will get wildly inaccurate numbers. The half dozen airports are am intimately familiar with their CPE are anywhere from plus or minus $4 to $11 off from charts above.

What you are quoting as "CPE" is the layman's way of comparing costs across airports. It is not very accurate and if you were in the industry you would know how to find and calculate this to a much smaller percentage of error.

But I can guarantee you that the hub airlines are getting a much better deal than most of the numbers being thrown out here...
 
jetero
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:50 pm

enilria wrote:
The interior fit and finish of an airline club can easily be to $10m. Debt service and amortization over 10 years on the interior items would be $125,000/month. If an airline has 500 int'l passengers per day it increases the airline's CPE by $8.33 vs. paying it out of their own pocket which would not be in their CPE. Just the "coffee", as you call it, is almost more than the average U.S. airport CPE. It's always better to run the numbers rather than just flippantly say it's nothing...


Ha! My dear backwards airline . . . lectures on flippancy from you!

You dismiss CPE as meaning "very little." There are certainly flaws with the methodology, which you can attempt to itemize as you did and make it seem like what you cited makes the ratio completely unreliable, but your list is missing perspective. The metric may be flawed, but it is followed closely by airport management, airline properties reps, rating analysts, and investors in airport bonds. It can be a key factor in determining an airport's credit rating. (The main problem with CPE is who cares if one airport's CPE is $5 and another's is $15 if the second airport gets $35 higher average fares?)

Let's start by saying that the CPE is to compare the costs that HAVE to be incurred for an airline to move a passenger at an airport. Landing fees, terminal rents, bag system use fees, FIS use fees. An airline can decide to open or fit out a club or use a common-use club operated by the airport, but it shouldn't be included as it is CHOICE over which the airline has control (with the exception of the cost of the building shell space). For that reason some airports include it, some airports don't. In any case they shouldn't.

But as to your specific point, care to provide a recent example of a U.S. airport financing FF&E for an exclusive-use club? Because that's what you're talking about. There might be one out there somewhere. If there is, I dare to say it's so infrequent that it is not driving widespread variances in CPE among 400 U.S. airports as you imply it is. If you're talking about airports running common-use clubs, I can count on probably one finger the number that do, but it's not a KEY DRIVER.

As to the rest of your list--all can be factors, but as to driving variances among averages, there's a tremendous difference in their relative frequency of occurrence and magnitude. What you have cited in theory can cause differences, but how often does most of what you're saying actually occur?

These ARE key drivers.

enilria wrote:
Terminal cleaning/janitorial (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Terminal capital cost (may be financed by airport bonds or non-airport bonds which are excluded from CPE)
Jetway acquisition/maintenance (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)


Terminal cleaning/janitorial would add $2 or so on to ATL as it is done by an airline consortium and paid directly by airlines. AA has their own contract at DFW, UA at EWR and IAH, and there are plenty of other examples. So YES.

Terminal capital cost, also YES. Special facility debt is not included. That excludes the Global Gateway at EWR, essentially all of the terminals at JFK, the Delta terminals at LGA, UA's Terminal E at IAH, used to be every terminal but TBIT at LAX but is changing, and the only reason why CVG's CPE is as comparatively as low as it is--the special facility debt was rejected in bankruptcy. (If you haven't sensed a theme the CPEs for the PANYNJ airports on Form 127 are probably the best examples of not being "full picture"--reported correctly to the FAA as it includes payments only to PANYNJ, but certainly the best example of CPE not being representative.)

(And it's not just jetways, it's bag systems too.)

These happen so infrequently in the U.S. that they ARE NOT. (CPE is a U.S. concept simply because of the differences in rates and charges charged from airport to airport.)

enilria wrote:
Passenger screening (some airports have opted out and taken it over from TSA)
Ramp tower staffing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Wheelchair services (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Employee parking transportation (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Terminal to terminal transportation (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Airline clubs (some multi-airline clubs are managed by the airport directly or through a sub-contractor)
Passenger handling/check-in/ramp (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport like in HPN; very common outside the USA)


-There are about 20 TSA opt-out airports, the biggest one being SFO, the next biggest being MCI, the next biggest being SFB. NOT a key driver.

-How many airports run ramp towers out there? And how much would you estimate this cost would add to the CPE? NOT a key driver.

-Not sure of any airports that run their own wheelchair contracts, but sure, it's possible. It's still not driving any major variances.

-Employee parking costs should never be included in CPE--that's industry standard.

-Terminal-to-terminal transportation--how many instances are there out there, and how much is that driving CPE as much as you are implying it is? UA at EWR, AA at ORD, I'm sure some at JFK.

-Airline clubs shouldn't be included for reasons discussed above--airlines don't have to use them.

-There's one example--HPN. Name others in the U.S. Again, CPE is a U.S. concept.

These I don't know enough to say but I'd suspect they'd be in the latter category when it comes to major drivers of variance. I just don't know how many airports out there manage deicing contracts. I'd also venture to say that the environmental infrastructure costs are mostly borne by airports.

enilria wrote:
Aircraft deicing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Deicing fluid purchasing (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)
Disposal of deicing/environmental (sometimes done by the airlines, sometimes by the airport)


Actually, now that you mention it, one of the big drivers of regional variance in CPE is whether or not there is snow to remove. So let's just say INCHES OF SNOW and call it a day.

In any case, the one VERY conspicuous missing point from your list of (as otherwise presented and potentially misleading) equal contributors of variance is the airline agreement, which may or may not include revenue sharing! To compare the $60+ million that will be shared with the airlines by DFW this year to some of these other items is ludicrous.

But if I ever have a question about the cost of an enplaned sandwich, you're number 1 on my speed dial.
 
jetero
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:22 pm

ITB wrote:
According to MWAA's most recent budget, the 2017 CPE at IAD for signatory airlines will be $18.97. At DCA, it's $14.12. In recent years, UA has repeatedly expressed concern about the high CPE at IAD. It has been a factor in why they have trimmed flights there. This year and next the Commonwealth of Virginia is providing $25 million each year to MWAA to help lower IAD's CPE.

http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files/2017_budget.pdf (page 57)

At hub airports, the CPE metric is particularly pertinent as the higher the figure goes, the less incentive there is to bring a connecting passenger through the facility. At some point, the airlines need to recover their costs, and the only way to do that is via higher fares. Hence, why IAD is known to be somewhat pricey compared to BWI and DCA.


Specious (albeit common) reasoning. Hub costs are largely fixed, and airports can charge airlines only cost recovery. Whether United runs 5, 10, or 20 million passengers out of IAD, the bill is not going to change much. The reason fares are high is because IAD is a fortress hub. As has been stated several times by several posters, CPE is NOT a factor in ticket prices. Where CPE comes into play is that it may be prohibitively expensive for new entrant airlines to start service at IAD. So yes, CPE being so high relative to fares can most certainly make a station unprofitable and lead to market exit (or cause airlines to avoid a market entirely).

billreid wrote:
This applies to a handful of airports that screw the system because Congress allows them to do so. LA may be in that group. Not Sure?


LA was sued--twice, I believe--by airlines and lost. So you can will have to find another justification for your contempt for them. I think BWI (run by the state as part of the Transportation Trust Fund that also runs state highways, MARC, the Port of Baltimore, and Baltimore City transit) and BOS (a multimodal port system) are also grandfathered.

jetblastdubai wrote:
A little perspective on hub cost/pax. for the Big 3. United = ouch!


It's theoretically not a problem if (1) fare premiums can be generated, (2) you have relatively higher load factors, or (3) hubs are more O&D to increase the fare proration. Data I've seen show UA having a 15% fare premium over DL and a 25% over AA. But this excludes other costs and who knows if UA will be able to maintain that premium. Not a bet I would make!

masseybrown wrote:
Airports are supposed to file annual data with CATS by the end of March of the following year; unfortunately many (lazy?) airport managements use the routinely granted extension and file at June 30th.


Actually within 120 days following end of the fiscal year (most ending June 30).

But most airports prefer to wait until their annual audit is complete so as not to report incomplete information--this is a six month cycle. But, sure, call 'em lazy bureaucrats. That's en vogue these days.

727LOVER wrote:
YEP

TPA $5.20

PIE $1.65

SRQ$11.15

PGD$0.00

RSW$7.61


Um Hum,....

Want to know why SRQ is struggling?....

right THERE !!!!!


12-months ending 6/30, average domestic fares for

SRQ: $185

TPA: $146

PGD: $72

RSW: $65

PIE: $153

But, sure, go all in PGD, Delta!

billreid wrote:
Yes. Exactly what so many people don't understand. If the average cost is $10 per pax higher at Airport A vs Airport B and they serve 50 flights at both with an average of 125 pax per flight the cost differential is a whopping $2,281,250 more at decision planning time. At that point the airline should consider a plan to increase one airport to 80 per day and reduce the other to 20.


Bill, how many examples of this are there really out there? (And, again, you didn't compare fares.) So BOS is a 50-flight station for DL, as is MCO, MCO has a lower CPE, so DL will move the flights to MCO? Not a real scenario. And the real scenarios within the same market (OAK vs SFO, ONT vs LAX, etc.) that are out there showed the opposite--leaving the low CPE airport for the higher one. Why? Because fares are a much bigger driver.
 
masseybrown
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:45 pm

jetero wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Airports are supposed to file annual data with CATS by the end of March of the following year; unfortunately many (lazy?) airport managements use the routinely granted extension and file at June 30th.


Actually within 120 days following end of the fiscal year (most ending June 30).

But most airports prefer to wait until their annual audit is complete so as not to report incomplete information--this is a six month cycle. But, sure, call 'em lazy bureaucrats. That's en vogue these days.


Except for the majority of airports which DO file on time.
 
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United787
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:02 pm

ITB wrote:
With the new runway construction at ORD, CPE is projected to rise significantly. I'd like to see the 2017 figure and the projections for 2018 through 2020.


Shouldn't the 2015 CPE already include the three new runways? 9L/27R, 10C/28C & 10R/28L were already complete or nearing completion at that point, the latter being commissioned in October 2015. Plus the 10L/28R extension, new control towers, moving of the cemeteries, removal of the neighborhoods, relocation of the roads and railroad, new taxiways etc. was all completed by that point. The only runway that shouldn't be in there is 9C/27C which I think is on hold.

That said, maybe the already high CPE is the main issue slowing down a decision/agreement on a major terminal expansion/redevelopment. I know the T2L expansion is happening but it sounds like the T5 expansion is awaiting funding and still no word from UA about more gates for them... they need them.
 
jetero
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Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:25 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Except for the majority of airports which DO file on time.


Massey, not sure where you're getting that from--would love to see a list of who files it within 120 days of the fiscal year end. You seem to be under the impression that the due date is March 31. Easy to do that if your fiscal year ends on June 30--that's 270 days.

DFW is a fine example--their FY ended 9/30. Go and try to find their Form 127 filing for FY 2016 as of today. And they have the reputation of being among the best in the business.

Look at the data again. Let's do the 10 busiest airports:

ATL, FYE 6/30--FY 2016 filing date: 12/27/2016, i.e. NOT within 120 days . . . 0/1

LAX, FYE 6/30--filing date: 12/21/2016, i.e. NOT within 120 days . . . 0/2

ORD, FYE 12/31--FY 2016 not yet filed (still within 120 days), FY 2015 filing date 8/1/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 0/3

DFW, FYE 9/30--filing date: not yet filed, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 0/4

JFK, FYE 12/31--FY 2016 not yet filed (still within 120 days), FY 2015 filing date 4/29/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 0/5

DEN, FYE 12/31--FY 2016 not yet filed (still within 120 days), FY 2015 filing date 5/24/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 0/6

SFO, FYE 6/30--FY 2016 filed 10/27/2016, 119 days, MASSEY SEAL OF APPROVAL . . . 1/7

CLT, FYE 6/30--FY 2016 filed 2/2/2017, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 1/8

LAS, FYE 6/30--FY 2016 filed 12/22/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 1/9

PHX, FYE 6/30--FY 2016 filed 12/22/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 1/10

So far you're batting 0.100 Massey thanks to those "lazy" liberals in San Francisco.

(So many filed 12/22 because there's nothing like Christmas to speed up an audit!)

But we all know this is probably about CLE so let's do them.

CLE, FYE 12/31--FY 2016 not yet filed (still within 120 days), FY 2015 filed 7/8/2016, i.e., NOT within 120 days . . . 1/11

CAK, FYE 12/31--FY 2016 not yet filed (still within 120 days), FY 2015 filed 4/29/2016, exactly 120 days . . . MASSEY STAMP OF APPROVAL! . . . 2/12

So Massey ends with an average of 0.167. Not "most" in my language. (I wonder is your whole view attributable to the fact that CAK squeaked by and CLE didn't?!)

As much as you may want to argue that the filing date is updated should there be any changes, filing within 120 is the aberration rather than the norm for airports of size, at least. And I'm not sure why any public entity would want to file unaudited data in an official government report if given the option not to (and what utility that would be anyway). If you have a problem with the 6-month audit cycle for public entities, take it up with GFOA. A lot of these City-run airports have to wait for end-of-year allocations from downtown. DFW is an authority so it controls all of these adjustments and the clock is ticking at 165 days.

But prove me wrong and conduct your own random sample. I don't think, however, that a subset consisting of MOST of the airports, say, 75% in number the size of Omaha and smaller getting theirs filed on time represents much of an accomplishment.

(And while we're at it, I hope you can at least acknowledge that financial statement interest expense has absolutely nothing to do with CPE yet?)
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:36 pm

United787 wrote:
ITB wrote:
With the new runway construction at ORD, CPE is projected to rise significantly. I'd like to see the 2017 figure and the projections for 2018 through 2020.


Shouldn't the 2015 CPE already include the three new runways? 9L/27R, 10C/28C & 10R/28L were already complete or nearing completion at that point, the latter being commissioned in October 2015. Plus the 10L/28R extension, new control towers, moving of the cemeteries, removal of the neighborhoods, relocation of the roads and railroad, new taxiways etc. was all completed by that point. The only runway that shouldn't be in there is 9C/27C which I think is on hold.

That said, maybe the already high CPE is the main issue slowing down a decision/agreement on a major terminal expansion/redevelopment. I know the T2L expansion is happening but it sounds like the T5 expansion is awaiting funding and still no word from UA about more gates for them... they need them.


Go here

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/d ... tions.html

download the 2015 presentation

page down to slide 32

There may be a more recent one out there but I can't find it.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5554
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:11 pm

jetero wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Except for the majority of airports which DO file on time.


Massey, not sure where you're getting that from-- ...But prove me wrong and conduct your own random sample. I don't think, however, that a subset consisting of MOST of the airports, say, 75% in number the size of Omaha and smaller getting theirs filed on time represents much of an accomplishment.

(And while we're at it, I hope you can at least acknowledge that financial statement interest expense has absolutely nothing to do with CPE yet?)


Wow, you put some effort into that, which I appreciate. I looked at the places I'm most interested in and the results support you - slightly less than half of the ones I looked at filed on time, but a couple of the laggards (OAK and IAD) were very close, i.e. less than 14 days late.

CPE = Passenger Airline Aeronautical Revenues divided by Emplanements. Ok, no interest directly, except that landing fees and facility rentals (components of P.A.A.Revenues) are both based in part on estimated or actual interest costs. So, no, I still maintain that interest cost does affect CPE.
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 pm

masseybrown wrote:
jetero wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Except for the majority of airports which DO file on time.


Massey, not sure where you're getting that from-- ...But prove me wrong and conduct your own random sample. I don't think, however, that a subset consisting of MOST of the airports, say, 75% in number the size of Omaha and smaller getting theirs filed on time represents much of an accomplishment.

(And while we're at it, I hope you can at least acknowledge that financial statement interest expense has absolutely nothing to do with CPE yet?)


Wow, you put some effort into that, which I appreciate. I looked at the places I'm most interested in and the results support you - slightly less than half of the ones I looked at filed on time, but a couple of the laggards (OAK and IAD) were very close, i.e. less than 14 days late.

CPE = Passenger Airline Aeronautical Revenues divided by Emplanements. Ok, no interest directly, except that landing fees and facility rentals (components of P.A.A.Revenues) are both based in part on estimated or actual interest costs. So, no, I still maintain that interest cost does affect CPE.


It certainly does for IAD; the vast majority of their costs are debt service; the cost to service that debt is directly related to the interest they pay on their bonds. And a big part of their efforts to control costs have been in refinancing existing debt to lower annual costs.

Interest rates affect airport costs in the same way that interest rates affect the cost of a mortgage.
 
ITB
Topic Author
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:50 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:02 pm

United787 wrote:
ITB wrote:
With the new runway construction at ORD, CPE is projected to rise significantly. I'd like to see the 2017 figure and the projections for 2018 through 2020.


Shouldn't the 2015 CPE already include the three new runways? 9L/27R, 10C/28C & 10R/28L were already complete or nearing completion at that point, the latter being commissioned in October 2015. Plus the 10L/28R extension, new control towers, moving of the cemeteries, removal of the neighborhoods, relocation of the roads and railroad, new taxiways etc. was all completed by that point. The only runway that shouldn't be in there is 9C/27C which I think is on hold.

That said, maybe the already high CPE is the main issue slowing down a decision/agreement on a major terminal expansion/redevelopment. I know the T2L expansion is happening but it sounds like the T5 expansion is awaiting funding and still no word from UA about more gates for them... they need them.

It's the additional debt the city of Chicago has taken on to build the new runways that is putting pressure on the CPE at ORD. It will take years and years to pay it off. Generally, the more debt, the higher the CPE. Each additional capital project brings more debt. The Modernization Program, while nearing its final stages, has piled on layer after layer of additional debt. CPE will rise to meet the escalating debt service costs.

Here's the projected CPE at ORD from the 2015 investor presentation referenced above, page 32:

Current Dollars
2015 $17.40
2016 19.75
2017 20.80
2018 21.31
2019 20.67
2020 23.49
2021 27.60
2022 28.48
2023 28.67
2024 29.63

2015 Constant Dollars (2015 Constant Dollars assume an inflation rate of 3%.)
2015 $17.40
2016 19.17
2017 19.61
2018 19.50
2019 18.37
2020 20.26
2021 23.11
2022 23.15
2023 22.64
2024 22.71

The slide where this information is presented is titled "Projected CPE Remains Reasonable and Stable." Well, it is stable in that it is steadily rising.
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:11 pm

blockski wrote:
It certainly does for IAD; the vast majority of their costs are debt service; the cost to service that debt is directly related to the interest they pay on their bonds. And a big part of their efforts to control costs have been in refinancing existing debt to lower annual costs.

Interest rates affect airport costs in the same way that interest rates affect the cost of a mortgage.


ANNUAL DEBT SERVICE (i.e., on a cash basis), which consists of interest AND principal is the basis for which airline rates and charges are calculated.

Structure by airport varies, but assuming 30-year level annual debt service, the debt service bill will be the same every year for 30 years even though the mix of principal and interest changes--just like your mortgage!

Financial statement interest expense decreasing, however, is not an indicator that CPE will decrease, other things equal. Changes in debt service is what's relevant.

Does your monthly car payment decrease in year 3 because the amount of interest being paid decreases?

Relatively high costs at IAD are indeed debt-driven, but the debt was cheap. More accurate to say they were project (scope and cost) driven. It was a bet made, and some would say lost, when UA was bankruptcy. The competitive changes at DCA have made it way worse, but who would've guessed that would happen a decade ago? Maybe foreign ownership rules will be relaxed 10 years from now in some sort of economic crisis and we go through a second wave of consolidation that kills once stalwart hubs.

Massey, apologies for the cheekiness--extraordinarily sensitive these days to people making unsubstantiated claims about government. Generally, people are too quick to give airport management credit when things go good and too quick to damn them when they're not. But it should say something that the airlines are not tripping over themselves to privatize airports as governments have done elsewhere--it's a pretty cheap way for them to finance facilities, and they are happy to deal with the day-to-day ineptness that exists in every organization (but admittedly perhaps more in government) in return for the "cheapness" and the priceless ability to influence their airport wants and desires politically versus in the marketplace.
 
ITB
Topic Author
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:50 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't landing fees the largest component in the CPE metric?

Also, I believe I read somewhere the CPE at LGA was projected to rise to an estimated $30 due to the much anticipated terminal restructuring and overhaul. Is that $30 figure accurate?
 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:35 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
billreid wrote:
SonaSounds wrote:
Working for an airport where I calculate CPE for perspective/current airlines and routes almost daily, I can tell you that most of these numbers are not even close to being accurate. Way to many factors go into calculating CPE which are not taken into account here like domestic vs international, aircraft size, passenger count, load factor, etc...


Why do you have a difficult time understanding this reflects an airports cost across the board.
Again, CPE is TOTAL passenger aviation fees charged divided by TOTAL revenue passengers served.
Yes and airlines fees differ based on the operation, however the CPE is a valid calculation that the Airlines both understand and use as a reference.Most cases where people say its not accurate refers to an airport who is non-competitive and has a dreadful CPE.
No matter what arguments you come up with, CPE accurately represents the cost structure at the airport as applied against all airline customers.


Obviously you don't calculate CPE as CPE at the airport I work at is calculated based on 3 parts: 20% fixed cost distributed evenly across all carriers, 40% based on flight ops, and 40% based on enplaned passengers. There is also a third party cost we add in for certain terminals depending if their is a private company who handles the gates for that specific terminal.

I am also very familiar with how our competitors calculate CPE and dividing "TOTAL passenger aviation fees charged divided by TOTAL revenue passengers served" is not remotely close to how anyone comes up with it.

There are many factors than bring down the airlines CPE that may have been negotiated into the lease and use agreements to help sell the airlines on a new idea: i.e. including certain parking revenue that will be deducted from the passenger portion of the CPE in order to get the airlines to sign off on building a new janitorial building for airport maintenance.

You can do what you are suggesting but you will get wildly inaccurate numbers. The half dozen airports are am intimately familiar with their CPE are anywhere from plus or minus $4 to $11 off from charts above.

What you are quoting as "CPE" is the layman's way of comparing costs across airports. It is not very accurate and if you were in the industry you would know how to find and calculate this to a much smaller percentage of error.

But I can guarantee you that the hub airlines are getting a much better deal than most of the numbers being thrown out here...


I think you missed the point CPE is filed using FAA Form 127. Discussing how we get there on a situational basis seams pointless to me. It's a line on an FAA form that all the airports are required to file. The accuracy of the numbers are highly consistent because the airports can file what numbers they please. So if you file a $123 CPE its your own fault, and the airlines should punish your airport for doing this by killing some flights. A standard method makes alot of sense versus an airport using "Alternative CPE - Trump Style, Yes I understand you calculated it using the "Alternative Facts Method" and your CPE went from $19.23 to $0.03, but I think you should just use what your airport filed with the FAA on Form 127.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: U.S. Airports and Cost Per Enplanement; Comparisons? List?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:47 pm

ITB wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't landing fees the largest component in the CPE metric?


Nope. Go to the website. Look at the data.

If you have just built new runways and haven't done anything to your terminals in a while, then probably.

Or if you are a residual airport and are charging market terminal rates, then probably.

ITB wrote:
Also, I believe I read somewhere the CPE at LGA was projected to rise to an estimated $30 due to the much anticipated terminal restructuring and overhaul. Is that $30 figure accurate?


I wouldn't be surprised. It's a $4 billion project. Sandwiches and parking pay for only so much. Spread the net costs, throw in a return for the developer, over what, 10 million enplaned passengers at buildout? Sounds about right.

billreid wrote:
I think you missed the point CPE is filed using FAA Form 127. Discussing how we get there on a situational basis seams pointless to me. It's a line on an FAA form that all the airports are required to file. The accuracy of the numbers are highly consistent because the airports can file what numbers they please. So if you file a $123 CPE its your own fault, and the airlines should punish your airport for doing this by killing some flights. A standard method makes alot of sense versus an airport using "Alternative CPE - Trump Style, Yes I understand you calculated it using the "Alternative Facts Method" and your CPE went from $19.23 to $0.03, but I think you should just use what your airport filed with the FAA on Form 127.


Agree with Bill wholeheartedly here. What Sonasounds is describing sounds like a joint use formula, which is often a part (but only a part) of rates and charges at U.S. airports. Guess an airport could decide to charge only that as a true "cost per enplaned passenger" but that's the exception rather than the rule. I'm with Bill, these references to calculating the average CPE at an airport any other way is ALTERNATIVE MATH.

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