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pitbosflyer
Posts: 392
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:40 pm

The one thing no one has addressed here is what would happen to B6's biz routes that are run currently with the E190. They are all high frequency so thus run with smaller planes. Would they just switch to A320's and hope they can sell the extra seats at the same frequency or would they be forced to drop frequency. That won't be popular with B6's business clients out of BOS.

B6's runs E190's on almost every one of its Biz focused routes out of Boston.

BOS-JFK/LGA/ORD/DCA/DTW/PHL/PIT

Although if they expand some version of Mint to these markets in the future....maybe it would make sense to have an 320 with some Mint seats.
A:320/21, 333, 343, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772 || MD80, MD90 || E:145, 170, 175, 190, 195 || CR200, 700, 900
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:39 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
Would they just switch to A320's and hope they can sell the extra seats at the same frequency or would they be forced to drop frequency.
BOS-JFK/LGA/ORD/DCA/DTW/PHL/PIT

Although if they expand some version of Mint to these markets in the future....maybe it would make sense to have an 320 with some Mint seats.


You ask a good question but I'll point out that not all of the airport pairs you cite are high frequency.

BOS-DTW is 3x today. ORD is 3x, PHL is 6x, PIT is 5x.
 
n5u
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
n5u wrote:
Its to bad that Sukhoi never got faa certification for the superjet ssj100-95b. I would love to see a real word cost comparison between the ssj100-95b and the E-190ar. I have a feeling with the $10,000,000 price difference and Sukhoi's support the ssj100-95 could turn a nice profit in the 100 seat market. Mexico's Interjet has ordered 15 more. I would say that is a good sign. I just don't think the jet gets the respect it deserves in the West. I think it would do jet blues e190 job at a much better profit margin


The RRJ-95B does count with FAA certification.

how so? interjet and cityjet think it does
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

You ask a good question but I'll point out that not all of the airport pairs you cite are high frequency.

BOS-DTW is 3x today. ORD is 3x, PHL is 6x, PIT is 5x.



I'll give you DTW and ORD. But BOS-JFK is 7x....that's only one more a day than PHL.
A:320/21, 333, 343, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772 || MD80, MD90 || E:145, 170, 175, 190, 195 || CR200, 700, 900
 
FARmd90
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:43 pm

I really dont think B6 will abandon the smaller markets that they serve like PWM, ACK, BTV, MVY. While some of those might see larger aircraft and reduced frequency, i think B6 will keep a presence in them. Not to mention places like ACK or MVY couldnt even handle a 320 (could they take a C-Series?)

And with those business routes just mentioned again, those markets are too important to the success at BOS and also B6 and those routes prefer high frequency or they dont work. And they work now.

Thats why i think once the E195-E2 starts pulling in some real numbers from tests, i think that will be the aircraft B6 goes for. Still offers common training and support that the current 190s and future NEOs will have will still giving a B6 some extra capacity on the Embraer fleet but still keeping it small enough to make a difference in a market to either serve it or not (all airbus feet wouldn't).. 120 seats i think would be perfect for B6 and a CS-100 might get to be too much plane for them.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:00 pm

E190 is not only about smaller markets. As mentioned, E190 features prominently in business markets. At DCA, 25 of the 30 daily flights are on the E190.

If JetBlue ditches the E190, will JetBlue be able to fill A320s or might it try to sell (not sure if the slots they have allow it) a slot or two?

I think extending the premium product to A320 is a good idea for these markets. Creates premium product with higher price, plus reduces seats somewhat to offset a 60 seat capacity different between current A320 and E190.
 
flyby519
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:30 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
E190 is not only about smaller markets. As mentioned, E190 features prominently in business markets. At DCA, 25 of the 30 daily flights are on the E190.

If JetBlue ditches the E190, will JetBlue be able to fill A320s or might it try to sell (not sure if the slots they have allow it) a slot or two?

I think extending the premium product to A320 is a good idea for these markets. Creates premium product with higher price, plus reduces seats somewhat to offset a 60 seat capacity different between current A320 and E190.


How about a similar sized plane with better CASM like the CSeries? They could have a mix of CS100/300 with a few Mint seats in each for business markets and longer thinner spots.

I can't see any scenario where B6 vacates DCA slots though!
 
jplatts
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:31 pm

Will jetBlue order A319neo aircraft to replace its E190 planes?
 
cloudboy
Posts: 1124
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:07 pm

As someone who has essentially switched over to B6 out of BOS, I feel the need to remind everyone that passengers are not cargo crates. The product matters. The 190 is in many cases the preferred aircraft in the B6 fleet - the seats are wider, usually easier to get everyone's luggage on board, and only two seats per aisle. Giving up the E190s without a good replacement is going to loose customers, who will just end up getting back into the upgrade game on the other airlines. The C series and E2 may very well provide that, but I don't think an all 320 fleet would.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:14 pm

FARmd90 wrote:
I really dont think B6 will abandon the smaller markets that they serve like PWM, ACK, BTV, MVY. While some of those might see larger aircraft and reduced frequency, i think B6 will keep a presence in them. Not to mention places like ACK or MVY couldnt even handle a 320 (could they take a C-Series?)

And with those business routes just mentioned again, those markets are too important to the success at BOS and also B6 and those routes prefer high frequency or they dont work. And they work now.

Thats why i think once the E195-E2 starts pulling in some real numbers from tests, i think that will be the aircraft B6 goes for. Still offers common training and support that the current 190s and future NEOs will have will still giving a B6 some extra capacity on the Embraer fleet but still keeping it small enough to make a difference in a market to either serve it or not (all airbus feet wouldn't).. 120 seats i think would be perfect for B6 and a CS-100 might get to be too much plane for them.


I suppose if price and landing fees are important, the E195-E2 would be a good sell. However it isn't all that much smaller than the A320 and it lacks in range compared to the A320. I do like the CSeries but it likely is more expensive.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:49 pm

cloudboy wrote:
As someone who has essentially switched over to B6 out of BOS, I feel the need to remind everyone that passengers are not cargo crates. The product matters. The 190 is in many cases the preferred aircraft in the B6 fleet - the seats are wider, usually easier to get everyone's luggage on board, and only two seats per aisle. Giving up the E190s without a good replacement is going to loose customers, who will just end up getting back into the upgrade game on the other airlines. The C series and E2 may very well provide that, but I don't think an all 320 fleet would.



Let B6 management how much you prefer the customer experience on the e190.

I hope they give back the older e190s when the leases run out and switch over to and expand the fleet with the E190-E2
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 291
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:40 am

B ombardier has lost a big market simply because of the 70-110 rule .. erj175 erj190 erj195. That was is the killer. (Also the higher 318/ 319 /20/21 commonwealithy)
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:36 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
B ombardier has lost a big market simply because of the 70-110 rule .. erj175 erj190 erj195. That was is the killer. (Also the higher 318/ 319 /20/21 commonwealithy)


What is the 70-110 rule?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:35 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
B ombardier has lost a big market simply because of the 70-110 rule .. erj175 erj190 erj195. That was is the killer. (Also the higher 318/ 319 /20/21 commonwealithy)


What is the 70-110 rule?


It's Embraer's marketing pitch for the Ejet segment from 70-110 seats. Basically saying that a plurality of worldwide flights depart with loads sized for that many seats, and no one was operating an aircraft of that size, so the Ejets were the ideal fit.
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 555
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:18 pm

Surely a duel family mix of CS100/300 and A320/21NEO would be the perfect fleet for the future of the airline. It might be expensive to replace the EMBs with the C Series initially but it will give jetblue the best chance in the future. But hey what do I know about running an airline.
 
avi8
Posts: 1319
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:36 pm

I have a feeling they will go for the E-2 jets. They have been adequately improved, no new aircraft model costs, and have incredible economics. I'm sure the glitches that the Embraers had when it comes to maintenance issues and such have already been addressed and fixed by Embraer.
avi8
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:09 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
B ombardier has lost a big market simply because of the 70-110 rule .. erj175 erj190 erj195. That was is the killer. (Also the higher 318/ 319 /20/21 commonwealithy)


What is the 70-110 rule?


It's Embraer's marketing pitch for the Ejet segment from 70-110 seats. Basically saying that a plurality of worldwide flights depart with loads sized for that many seats, and no one was operating an aircraft of that size, so the Ejets were the ideal fit.


Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:42 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

What is the 70-110 rule?


It's Embraer's marketing pitch for the Ejet segment from 70-110 seats. Basically saying that a plurality of worldwide flights depart with loads sized for that many seats, and no one was operating an aircraft of that size, so the Ejets were the ideal fit.


Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.


Yea, it was the E190 that beat Bombardier in the larger end of that segment. Nominally a couple rows longer than the CRJ1000, better cabin, better range, and available sooner. The E170 vs CRJ700 / E175 vs CRJ900 was a much closer fight. The E195 walked away with their portion of the market - only when the CS100 arrived did it see any competition, despite being stretched to the max.
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 291
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Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:25 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

What is the 70-110 rule?


It's Embraer's marketing pitch for the Ejet segment from 70-110 seats. Basically saying that a plurality of worldwide flights depart with loads sized for that many seats, and no one was operating an aircraft of that size, so the Ejets were the ideal fit.


Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.[/quote
Embraer=same cockpit plus 90% comonwealithy=major operational savings
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:48 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:

It's Embraer's marketing pitch for the Ejet segment from 70-110 seats. Basically saying that a plurality of worldwide flights depart with loads sized for that many seats, and no one was operating an aircraft of that size, so the Ejets were the ideal fit.


Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.[/quote
Embraer=same cockpit plus 90% comonwealithy=major operational savings


Yes, that's all fine, but the fact remains that BBD had aircraft fairly well positioned in the 70-110 seat segment. Obviously above around 96 seats they fell off the cliff, but I don't think it was seating size in and of itself that was BBDs downfall as much as that their product was not as well received by the consumer and was not as capable as the Ejet.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:40 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:


Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.[/quote
Embraer=same cockpit plus 90% comonwealithy=major operational savings


Yes, that's all fine, but the fact remains that BBD had aircraft fairly well positioned in the 70-110 seat segment. Obviously above around 96 seats they fell off the cliff, but I don't think it was seating size in and of itself that was BBDs downfall as much as that their product was not as well received by the consumer and was not as capable as the Ejet.

Commonwealithy! This made klm f.e. choose for the erj175 over the q400 , ATR and MRJ
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:50 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

Ok well I guess I don't get his point. BBD had - in that segment - the Q400, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. I get that they weren't as comfortable or in some cases capable as the Ejets, but conversely they were also cheaper to own and operate from what I've seen.[/quote
Embraer=same cockpit plus 90% comonwealithy=major operational savings


Yes, that's all fine, but the fact remains that BBD had aircraft fairly well positioned in the 70-110 seat segment. Obviously above around 96 seats they fell off the cliff, but I don't think it was seating size in and of itself that was BBDs downfall as much as that their product was not as well received by the consumer and was not as capable as the Ejet.

Commonwealithy! This made klm f.e. choose for the erj175 over the q400 , ATR and MRJ


If you mean commonality, I get that. Again, the CRJ-200/700/900/1000 have commonality. However, to your broader point, I agree that the Ejets are a more comfortable and overall superior product. I just don't see the relevance of the 70-110 rule, but it's fine.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3106
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: JetBlue launches fleet review with E190 cost concerns

Mon May 01, 2017 8:40 pm

It would appear that JetBlue has a RASM problem, rather than a CASM problem. It would be reasonable to conclude that JetBlue's Revenue Management leadership and programs are due for a major overhaul in the near future.
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