User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:56 am

The glory days for new widebody orders are over, for now:

The major players who buy airplanes painted a gloomy picture for sales of big jets over the next few years, with global airlines facing a glut in capacity and lower fares. The outlook is worrying for Boeing's 777 in particular.

It’s bad timing for Boeing, which desperately needs to sell more new 777s and is also trying to drum up sales for the upcoming 777X.

...

Grabowski said the last few years have been perfect for the aviation business, with growing passenger traffic, low fuel prices and cheap capital, but he senses the good times cannot last much longer.

He’s advising investors to wait six months in anticipation of a fall in jet pricing that he foresees bringing major losses for some in the industry.

“We are at the end of something,” Grabowski said.


Adam Pilarski expressed similar worry.

In addition, AerCap CEO Aengus Kelly believes that airlines will continue to defer widebody aircraft deliveries:

“We see big deferrals in the widebody market,” Kelly told an audience at the Airline Economics Growth Frontiers conference in Dublin. “The OEM [original equipment manufacturer] will sell to anyone with a pulse,” he added.


Sources
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... rbus-jets/
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... -deferrals

We already noticed slower sales but now it appears to become a problem. More second hand aircraft will hit the market soon, making new sales more difficult.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:14 am

Ignoring military variants, net wide body sales in 2017 and 2018 will likely be negative, and deferrals even greater.

Unfortunately for Boeing, apart from the low prices most 777X's have sold for to-date, sales largely pre-date the tightening of contract T&C's, in particular generous zero / low penalties for deferrals and model / version swapping.

However, deferrals will trigger the ability to review contract terms, likely leading to order cancellations, as prices and penalties are reviewed upwards, a mixed blessing given most 777X sales are barely at cost.

Meantime, both A & B will want to deliver as many aircraft as possible on-time, to avoid giving customers a low-cost escape route, which is why both are clocking up big overtime costs (including working into the traditional Christmas period), trying to get deliveries back on time.
 
Noshow
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:29 am

No surprise:
Manufacturers flooded the market with new wideboby-twin models and variants announcing more and more to come. Rates went up while prices were meant to stay high.
Now we have some asian slump, formerly rich arabs suffering from lower oil income, europe disintegrating, south america weak, the US repelling tourists and only the US domestic market looking solid. Where should all the demand needed come from?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:31 am

Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.
 
Noshow
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:34 am

If MoM is part of the next 737-family it will find it's place. A strong domestic US market ain't bad to launch something like it.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:41 am

Good thread Karel.It really is the elephant in the room which this forum tends to ignore ,whilst imagineers dream up the next 10 new widebodied planes.In actual fact nobodies buying!
Whilst I except it's off topic.The very idea that Boeing might be looking at a new niche wide bodied aircraft is 'bold' to say the least!
Of course these things are cyclical but no one knows the length of these cycles.With oil firmly rooted at $50,the World becoming increasingly a dangerous place (see global laptop ban),and a general rise in insular behaviour,there are no silver linings that I can see.Climate change and airport pollution is but another cloud.
And when the market does 'come back'-more of th same?or will things have changed?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39350054
 
TheDBCooper
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:08 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:08 am

I don't think it solely applies to the widebody market, the narrowbody A320/B737 may prove even more problematic for manufacturers. 60/mo productions rates are worrying, but more so for the parts suppliers who are going to have increasing price pressure from the glut of second-hand parts.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21362
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:24 am

seahawk wrote:
Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.

Best case the big spends on MOM development won't happen till after the 77X is up and running. I've seen 2024-5 mentioned for EIS so the big spend will probably start after 2021. But yes, if the market is struggling it'll be even harder to get the MOM program launched.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Noshow
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:37 am

That launch should depend more on the availability of some entirely new engine generation. If it is good enough the market will want it anytime. In any case some years to go it seems.
 
dare100em
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:31 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:51 am

The MOM will A) Be not ready before 2015 for EIS, so the current downturn of the economy may very well turn out to be exactly the opposite than and B) The MOM ist not really a widebody in the size of the 787, even less the 777. It will be designed as an opener for medium-long range LCC operations, and that's where a lot of market potential is.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4376
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.


Actually, it could be. By the time this aircraft will be on the market, the downturn should be over
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5816
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:05 pm

Good thread. Delta's Anderson called it at least 18 months ago.

'Boeing, Airbus Shares Slump on ‘Bubble’ for Used Wide-Body Jets

by Julie Johnsson and Andrea Rothman
October 14, 2015, 4:42 PM EDT October 19, 2015, 11:44 AM EDT

Secondhand sales may hurt pricing on factory-fresh 777s
Keeping order flow crucial for planemakers' production lines
Shares of Boeing Co. and Airbus Group SE tumbled after Delta Air Lines Inc. said a surge of wide-body passenger jets are coming off lease, creating investor concern that the planemakers face pressure on pricing and orders for new aircraft.'

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -body-jets
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:05 pm

Someone83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.


Actually, it could be. By the time this aircraft will be on the market, the downturn should be over


Indeed, and the fleets will be old and in dire need of replacement, while other widebodies will still be more expensive to buy and operate. I think the MoM could be a saviour for Boeing and lead them back into golden times.
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:14 pm

Is it because of the tons of Li-ion batteries in the hold due to the US/UK laptop-ban?
 
User avatar
cv990Coronado
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:38 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:32 pm

parapente wrote:
Good thread Karel.It really is the elephant in the room which this forum tends to ignore ,whilst imagineers dream up the next 10 new widebodied planes.In actual fact nobodies buying!
Whilst I except it's off topic.The very idea that Boeing might be looking at a new niche wide bodied aircraft is 'bold' to say the least!
Of course these things are cyclical but no one knows the length of these cycles.With oil firmly rooted at $50,the World becoming increasingly a dangerous place (see global laptop ban),and a general rise in insular behaviour,there are no silver linings that I can see.Climate change and airport pollution is but another cloud.
And when the market does 'come back'-more of th same?or will things have changed?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39350054



Excellent post, the perfect storm seems to be coming together with all the points you have mentioned. There are just too many potential negatives and so few rainbows on the horizon. The 777X launched at supposed firesale prices/conditions, a need to sell the balance of the 777 production. The A330neo especially the -8 not selling well, although I doubt if that is as serious for Airbus as the 777X situation is potentially for Boeing. But, then Airbus has the A380 problem to worry about. I'm sure Airbus is happy it didn't make any moves to increase A350 production when everything looked so rosy.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.


It certainly would be. :checkmark:
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
User avatar
rotating14
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:54 pm

This type of news only speaks to the crowd on A.net Boeing and Airbus go through the trials and tribulations of what it is to sell aircraft, aircraft parts and services all the time. What will Boeing do if oil stays cheap with slots to fill on the 777 line? Adjust. If UA and AA decide to cancel their A350 orders due to market conditions beyond their control, what would Airbus do? Adjust.

I'm confident that both OEM's know that it'll be difficult to sell new widebody metal.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18096
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:11 pm

TheDBCooper wrote:
I don't think it solely applies to the widebody market, the narrowbody A320/B737 may prove even more problematic for manufacturers. 60/mo productions rates are worrying, but more so for the parts suppliers who are going to have increasing price pressure from the glut of second-hand parts.

Sadly I agree. The used narrowbody market is showing that we are not at a point to handle a ramp up in production at 3 vendors. You'll find post of mine disagreeing with this a few years ago; the slowdown in China is worse than what I estimated and India is behind in building more hub airport capacity.

But the NEO and MAX are impacting the widebody market. Missions that before had to be a widebodies will now be handled by longer range narrowbodies.

To others:
The MoM will find a tough launch, but there should be enough interest to start it.

As to the 777X, I do not think it is done. Sales are adequate. It will hurt 777-300ER sales/deliveries. Cest la vie.

What it really hurts is the A330NEO sales campaigns. If 787s or A350s are available earlier... That hurts that plane. Not to mention the MoM competes at the same range at a lower cost per flight.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9971
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:36 pm

It is a bubble in the marked. Too much cheap money found their way into the airline business. In the end there will be too much capacity which will force the prices down on the used marked.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:52 pm

This is why you build up the large backlogs that both Airbus and Boeing have. This is a cyclical business, the good times weren't going to last forever.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
amdiesen
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:27 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:11 pm

Emirates has really navigated themselves into a box.

Emirates positioned themselves with Airbus with the pitch that they would be their foundation customer for the A380. Foundation customers require razor tight margins and a relationship in which the supplier serves the foundation customers needs. The supplier achieves production efficiencies, otherwise unavailable, and is able to garner higher profit margins on additional products sold. The symbioses fails when the foundation customer becomes, for practical purposes, the dominate/only customer. It has been logically postulated that there is an absence of an aftermarket for the A380. Lessors are structuring payments based on these 12yr life expectations. Emirates derives costs that reflect this reality. Now that the flaws in the business model have become apparent, Emirates must be scratching it head on new leased purchases versus the lease cost of renovating fully depreciated planes... at the cost of killing the production line for the product.

On the other hand, Emirates productive fleet of mid-life 773s, due to come off lease, are leaving their competitors salivating over a low cost option to directly compete for Emirate themed customers. Until the 779 reaches a production rate, Emirates illogically replaces these frames with an identical, deriving less than a neural advantage.
Has Emirates outsmarted themselves?

prognostication: sequels are smart and generally have an intensity of intellectual capital improving the prospects for a superior evolution in the product. The 777 is a modern marvel with widespread practical use that brings economic utility to a wide segment of the global traveling population. The 779 will dominate the ME3 and premium Asian brands. The 778 will find favor with leading American and European airlines. Even without a 777x stretch the family will be the impetus for 'creative destruction' that leads to the extinction of the respected A380 marvel. note: the first sequel in a story is generally inspiring, iterative sequels... not so much.

hypothesis: At the depths of Boeing 777 despair UPS will make a cash offer for several dozen 77F frames. Leaving Fedex scratching its head.
Last edited by amdiesen on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
AeroTyke
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:36 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm

Noshow wrote:
No surprise:
Manufacturers flooded the market with new wideboby-twin models and variants announcing more and more to come. Rates went up while prices were meant to stay high.
Now we have some asian slump, formerly rich arabs suffering from lower oil income, europe disintegrating, south america weak, the US repelling tourists and only the US domestic market looking solid. Where should all the demand needed come from?


:yes:

This has been brewing for some time and I see it getting worse before improving. Could well see some white tails widebodies. Emirates have been getting slower and slower to take their new 777s for 6 months or so now when historically they took delivery of them ASAP. A6-EPZ has been ready for delivery since end of January but it's sitting at PAE looking sorry for itself and unloved. There's a fresh batch of new 777s due for them over the next few months as well.

TK also in no rush for their latest 777 which has been sitting idle for many months now and the restrictions on flights to the USA won't be helping either carrier.

UA don't seem to want their new 777s either as there's 3 parked up ready for delivery, with another 8 due over the next few months and their 3rd one has only just been put to use. (I do of course realise that some of these are 747 replacements).

South America on its ass as well, like you say, and TAM has no passengers to put on their new A359s so they're all going to Qatar.

Turbulent times ahead.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2198
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:47 pm

AeroTyke wrote:
UA don't seem to want their new 777s either as there's 3 parked up ready for delivery, with another 8 due over the next few months and their 3rd one has only just been put to use. (I do of course realise that some of these are 747 replacements).


UA's 77W delays are due to seat issues, not because they don't want them.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:11 pm

Wonder who will be the 1st carrier to defer their 779s??
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5816
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:16 pm

seahawk wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Sounds like a good time for the next widebody in the form of the MoM.


Actually, it could be. By the time this aircraft will be on the market, the downturn should be over


Indeed, and the fleets will be old and in dire need of replacement, while other widebodies will still be more expensive to buy and operate. I think the MoM could be a saviour for Boeing and lead them back into golden times.


The problem of too many widebody variations in the market earning too-low returns for Boeing and Airbus isn't solved by another high-investment variant in the market. Firms in industries that achieve stable returns on capital, largely irrespective of business cycles, show investment discipline. Hair of the dog that bit you isn't it.
 
User avatar
tistpaa727
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 5:23 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:32 pm

TheDBCooper wrote:
I don't think it solely applies to the widebody market, the narrowbody A320/B737 may prove even more problematic for manufacturers. 60/mo productions rates are worrying, but more so for the parts suppliers who are going to have increasing price pressure from the glut of second-hand parts.


Agreed ... it's not just the widebodies but the narrowbody market as well. There are only so many frames LCCs can take before they flood the market and ticket prices go below a profitable amount. It will be interesting to see who is impacted the most - Airbus, Boeing or BBD/EMB. I believe the latter as they don't have the deep pockets to weather a significant flood of 2nd hand frames hitting the market at rock bottom prices.

As for those calling on the MoM to save the day..if there is a glut of cheap capacity on both the low end and top end, why do you need a new frame in the middle? If you can get the frames cheap enough, abuse them and eliminate the need for a costly capital expense. Now, I'm not saying the MoM may not be needed, just not needed as quickly as us avgeeks would like.
Don't sweat the little things.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:43 pm

parapente wrote:
Of course these things are cyclical but no one knows the length of these cycles.With oil firmly rooted at $50,the World becoming increasingly a dangerous place (see global laptop ban),and a general rise in insular behaviour,there are no silver linings that I can see.Climate change and airport pollution is but another cloud.
And when the market does 'come back'-more of th same?or will things have changed?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39350054


I would bet a lot that seven years from now total air traffic will be higher than now. I would bet that for any seven year period after WWII, air traffic was higher at the end of the period than the beginning. It's certainly true from 1970 onward.
Image

P.S. I've become a reluctant poster. It seems that many people here go for personal insults rather than discussion of issues.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 pm

tistpaa727 wrote:
TheDBCooper wrote:
I don't think it solely applies to the widebody market, the narrowbody A320/B737 may prove even more problematic for manufacturers. 60/mo productions rates are worrying, but more so for the parts suppliers who are going to have increasing price pressure from the glut of second-hand parts.


Agreed ... it's not just the widebodies but the narrowbody market as well. There are only so many frames LCCs can take before they flood the market and ticket prices go below a profitable amount. It will be interesting to see who is impacted the most - Airbus, Boeing or BBD/EMB. I believe the latter as they don't have the deep pockets to weather a significant flood of 2nd hand frames hitting the market at rock bottom prices.

As for those calling on the MoM to save the day..if there is a glut of cheap capacity on both the low end and top end, why do you need a new frame in the middle? If you can get the frames cheap enough, abuse them and eliminate the need for a costly capital expense. Now, I'm not saying the MoM may not be needed, just not needed as quickly as us avgeeks would like.


I think the MoM, to a degree, is not as relevant in this discussion as the 777X (for example). Realistically it would be entering airline fleets in large numbers beginning in about 10 years. There is a whole boom-bust-boom cycle to go through between now and then. If I look back to 2007, we hadn't even really hit the GFC yet, and here just a scant 10 years later we have exited that, had some good times, saw the rise and fall of oil, the introduction of the 787 and A350, the neo/MAXing of the A320/737, and numerous other changes. Ten years from now we'll be in a different place again and I'm not so sure that what's happening today will really impact a potential MoM introduction. It might delay the launch a bit, though.

I guess I'm a bit surprised if people (or OEMs) are surprised. I'm not clear how anyone could have expected the party to go on forever?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Aither
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 pm

Narrow body aircraft are also increasingly eating the wide body market, knowing that the average distance flown by twin aisle aircraft in the world is less than 3000nm (from what I've been told).
On the other hand long haul LCCs since to finally penetrate the market.
Never trust the obvious
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2889
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:21 pm

amdiesen wrote:
Emirates has really navigated themselves into a box.

Emirates positioned themselves with Airbus with the pitch that they would be their foundation customer for the A380. Foundation customers require razor tight margins and a relationship in which the supplier serves the foundation customers needs. The supplier achieves production efficiencies, otherwise unavailable, and is able to garner higher profit margins on additional products sold. The symbioses fails when the foundation customer becomes, for practical purposes, the dominate/only customer. It has been logically postulated that there is an absence of an aftermarket for the A380. Lessors are structuring payments based on these 12yr life expectations. Emirates derives costs that reflect this reality. Now that the flaws in the business model have become apparent, Emirates must be scratching it head on new leased purchases versus the lease cost of renovating fully depreciated planes... at the cost of killing the production line for the product.

On the other hand, Emirates productive fleet of mid-life 773s, due to come off lease, are leaving their competitors salivating over a low cost option to directly compete for Emirate themed customers. Until the 779 reaches a production rate, Emirates illogically replaces these frames with an identical, deriving less than a neural advantage.
Has Emirates outsmarted themselves?

prognostication: sequels are smart and generally have an intensity of intellectual capital improving the prospects for a superior evolution in the product. The 777 is a modern marvel with widespread practical use that brings economic utility to a wide segment of the global traveling population. The 779 will dominate the ME3 and premium Asian brands. The 778 will find favor with leading American and European airlines. Even without a 777x stretch the family will be the impetus for 'creative destruction' that leads to the extinction of the respected A380 marvel. note: the first sequel in a story is generally inspiring, iterative sequels... not so much.

hypothesis: At the depths of Boeing 777 despair UPS will make a cash offer for several dozen 77F frames. Leaving Fedex scratching its head.

Randy? Is that you?!?
Image
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: There's a fire burning in the widebody market

Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:13 pm

scotron11 wrote:
Wonder who will be the 1st carrier to defer their 779s??

They are mostly staying staunch at the moment, hoping Boeing is late and/or performance deficiencies result in convenient delays.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos