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jasonfrederick
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AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:04 pm

With all the buzz going around with the AS/ VX acquisition and the dissolution of the VX name I thought this topic deserved a thread of it's own. AS has recently pushed aggressive expansion in SFO and SAN and when VX is absorbed will have an ever more relevant position in SAN and especially SFO and LAX in the near future. Just thought I would start a discussion specifically more about how WN could be responding to the attack on their precious California market in the near future. WN has already responded in SAN by adding more than six new non stop routes beginning this Summer. Also adding non stops to PDX out of SFO and starting international service to PVR SJD out of OAK. I personally in the near term see WN finally opening an LAX crew base and that rumored terminal 0 next to terminal 1 at LAX becoming a reality allowing WN to significantly increase LAX presence and combat AS growth. Thoughts?
 
asteriskceo
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:11 pm

WN needs to focus on improving their product.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:13 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


How? They offer more than most of the legacies and even AS back in coach. All they really need to do is add powerports.
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:17 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


They can tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.
 
Jshank83
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:29 pm

jasonfrederick wrote:
With all the buzz going around with the AS/ VX acquisition and the dissolution of the VX name I thought this topic deserved a thread of it's own. AS has recently pushed aggressive expansion in SFO and SAN and when VX is absorbed will have an ever more relevant position in SAN and especially SFO and LAX in the near future. Just thought I would start a discussion specifically more about how WN could be responding to the attack on their precious California market in the near future. WN has already responded in SAN by adding more than six new non stop routes beginning this Summer. Also adding non stops to PDX out of SFO and starting international service to PVR SJD out of OAK. I personally in the near term see WN finally opening an LAX crew base and that rumored terminal 0 next to terminal 1 at LAX becoming a reality allowing WN to significantly increase LAX presence and combat AS growth. Thoughts?


Didn't WN have their summer schedule come out before AS put out their new routes? Unless you are saying WN proactively did the new routes to combat what they thought AS would announce. That said it will be interesting moving forward, I am just not sure WN responded by adding routes when they were already added before AS announced all their new routes.
 
jplatts
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:31 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
jasonfrederick wrote:
With all the buzz going around with the AS/ VX acquisition and the dissolution of the VX name I thought this topic deserved a thread of it's own. AS has recently pushed aggressive expansion in SFO and SAN and when VX is absorbed will have an ever more relevant position in SAN and especially SFO and LAX in the near future. Just thought I would start a discussion specifically more about how WN could be responding to the attack on their precious California market in the near future. WN has already responded in SAN by adding more than six new non stop routes beginning this Summer. Also adding non stops to PDX out of SFO and starting international service to PVR SJD out of OAK. I personally in the near term see WN finally opening an LAX crew base and that rumored terminal 0 next to terminal 1 at LAX becoming a reality allowing WN to significantly increase LAX presence and combat AS growth. Thoughts?


Didn't WN have their summer schedule come out before AS put out their new routes? Unless you are saying WN proactively did the new routes to combat what they thought AS would announce. That said it will be interesting moving forward, I am just not sure WN responded by adding routes when they were already added before AS announced all their new routes.


Southwest has already announced nonstop service between San Francisco and Portland, OR, which currently is served nonstop out of SFO by United, Alaska, and Virgin America, and Southwest will be starting SFO-PDX nonstops on June 4th.
 
Chemist
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:54 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


With a record of profitability that no other airline can match, exactly what do you think they're doing wrong?
 
DesertAir
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:13 pm

I fly monthly between SAN and SMF. WN has been the only carrier on this route. AS is beginning service this month...3 flights a day verses
10-12. WN uses a 737 while AS uses an Ejet. To become a dominant player on the West Coast, frecuency is important. Remember the PSA and United days.
 
SWADawg
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:23 pm

AS will still have a steep hill to climb to match what WN does in CA. That's not to say they can't eventually, but it will be far more bloody for AS than WN and WN is 3 times the size of the combined AS/VX with much deeper pockets. It will no doubt keep the fares in CA rock bottom for years to come. So, good for the consumer no doubt about that.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
bob75013
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:53 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


They can tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.



\WN just told all of it's A-listers that it is changing it's same day standby policy. In the past if you wanted to take an earlier flight, you had to pay thew difference between your ticket price and the" walkup buy it now price" Now A-listers can change to an earlier flight at no charge.

That sounds like a pretty big improvement in product.
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 501
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:28 pm

bob75013 wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


They can tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.



\WN just told all of it's A-listers that it is changing it's same day standby policy. In the past if you wanted to take an earlier flight, you had to pay thew difference between your ticket price and the" walkup buy it now price" Now A-listers can change to an earlier flight at no charge.

That sounds like a pretty big improvement in product.


Maybe I should be more specific. They need to focus on their *onboard* product. Alaska is light years ahead.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:39 pm

I like WN being WN because it gives people options. Frankly, sometimes I like the assigned seats thing and sometimes I don't care. I've used BoB once or twice out of years of flying - so it didn't kill me to not have it available on WN. I think for WN in CA, frequency trumps everything else. AS has the benefit of being flexible in using the Qs and Ejets while also not being wedded to just flying ex-LAX or ex-SFO. I think they can co-exist pretty decently.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
asteriskceo
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:39 pm

Considering that the advantages that Southwest offers in product are mainly policy related, Alaska can match pretty much any perk that Southwest has to offer with a flick of a pen. The opposite is not true and would require significant investment on the part of WN.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:40 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
Considering that the advantages that Southwest offers in product are mainly policy related, Alaska can match pretty much any perk that Southwest has to offer with a flick of a pen. The opposite is not true and would require significant investment on the part of WN.


I'd like to see Alaska offer two bags free. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
asteriskceo
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:46 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
Considering that the advantages that Southwest offers in product are mainly policy related, Alaska can match pretty much any perk that Southwest has to offer with a flick of a pen. The opposite is not true and would require significant investment on the part of WN.


I'd like to see Alaska offer two bags free. :-)


They could offer something similar, at least for their most loyal customers in specific markets. I think you're missing my point.
 
atsiang
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:49 pm

I've flown WN since I was a college student in the mid 90's flying between LA and San Jose and for the most part I have stuck with them due to the fact that their change fee is $0. I don't have to worry about that my booking allowing for flexibility and also 2 bags free. Really hard to beat the no change fee and 2 bags free.
Last edited by atsiang on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:49 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
Considering that the advantages that Southwest offers in product are mainly policy related, Alaska can match pretty much any perk that Southwest has to offer with a flick of a pen. The opposite is not true and would require significant investment on the part of WN.


I'd like to see Alaska offer two bags free. :-)


They could offer something similar, at least for their most loyal customers in specific markets. I think you're missing my point.


Well, I don't think I miss your point but I also think that one major differentiation for people is Bags Fly Free. That's a policy issue that actually drives buying decisions for a lot of people. I should know as my flying tends to be split between the two, with Bags Fly Free often making WN the better value. You're right, though, that AS could offer that perk and perhaps something else and match what WN does.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
n471wn
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:00 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


They have a great product and have operational excellence and I fly them 100 times a week year. What they need to do is add Fresno ASAP
 
grbauc
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:42 pm

bob75013 wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


They can tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.



\WN just told all of it's A-listers that it is changing it's same day standby policy. In the past if you wanted to take an earlier flight, you had to pay thew difference between your ticket price and the" walkup buy it now price" Now A-listers can change to an earlier flight at no charge.

That sounds like a pretty big improvement in product.


It is big. Now the difference between them and the other big 4 on day of departure is equal. I really hope to see the change fee's dropped or lowered on big 3. I don't think it will happen over this WN change but one day maybe.
 
grbauc
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:48 pm

I don't think AS needs to dominate the west coast but just give a counter option. There product and pricing is in line with combating WN they just need to get more exposure and map presence. I love that they have SFO now and are still adding on to SJC. WN and AS can co-exist in the west coast just like AA and WN do at PHX.
 
CHI87LG
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:53 pm

WN product is exactly what it needs to be, no more and no less. Their service is exceptional, particularly regarding rescheduling. Their pilots get you there, quickly. The airline is exceptionally fair. I see no need to improve their cabin product when you know that what you're paying for.

If WN ever falls into dire straits, they can start trimming their services as far as I'm concerned. But I don't want to give them any big ideas.
 
airliner371
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:56 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:

They can tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.



\WN just told all of it's A-listers that it is changing it's same day standby policy. In the past if you wanted to take an earlier flight, you had to pay thew difference between your ticket price and the" walkup buy it now price" Now A-listers can change to an earlier flight at no charge.

That sounds like a pretty big improvement in product.


Maybe I should be more specific. They need to focus on their *onboard* product. Alaska is light years ahead.

If we purely talk Economy here, how is AS any better than WN in terms of onboard product? Power ports? That's about all I can think of. But WN also provides free live streaming television (in addition to free on demand tv shows), and for me, that's better than power ports. WN has better WiFi CURRENTLY and is upgrading it with the MAX so AS upgrading their WiFi is just playing catch up. I'm honestly curious to hear your argument as to how AS has a better on board experience.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:12 pm

airliner371 wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


\WN just told all of it's A-listers that it is changing it's same day standby policy. In the past if you wanted to take an earlier flight, you had to pay thew difference between your ticket price and the" walkup buy it now price" Now A-listers can change to an earlier flight at no charge.

That sounds like a pretty big improvement in product.


Maybe I should be more specific. They need to focus on their *onboard* product. Alaska is light years ahead.

If we purely talk Economy here, how is AS any better than WN in terms of onboard product? Power ports? That's about all I can think of. But WN also provides free live streaming television (in addition to free on demand tv shows), and for me, that's better than power ports. WN has better WiFi CURRENTLY and is upgrading it with the MAX so AS upgrading their WiFi is just playing catch up. I'm honestly curious to hear your argument as to how AS has a better on board experience.


I found the WN onboard content perfectly acceptable for the flights I've taken on them. I set my iPad on the tray table, connect, and the next thing I know it's time to begin our descent. Works for me.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
flyfresno
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:33 pm

WN is unique on many fronts: more point to point, easier and cheaper change/rebooking, the whole open seating thing (many do like it), and better bag policies. I agree with the posts above, the only real change they need to make is adding more destinations (including FAT).
 
ucdtim17
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:36 pm

WN also has far more seats and frequency to all of California's major airports. It'd take 10-20 years of buildup for AS to match that. Hopefully they'll grow to become a legitimate competitor but WN is likely to remain dominant for intrastate flying for the near-mid term future.
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:45 am

Chemist wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.


With a record of profitability that no other airline can match, exactly what do you think they're doing wrong?



While I agree on parts of this, I think (and I think WN would agree), I think it's incredibly arrogant and dangerous to claim that because of history, they aren't doing wrong in the present. There's plenty of reason they continue to evolve their product. As has been mentioned, powerports are an obvious opportunity for them. And don't think for a second they don't know that and aren't working on it. They're like everyone else and years of profitability isn't a good reason to claim you do nothing wrong. They've got PLENTY to improve on and they know it, just like every airline.
Good goes around!
 
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jasonfrederick
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:57 am

Jshank83 wrote:
jasonfrederick wrote:
With all the buzz going around with the AS/ VX acquisition and the dissolution of the VX name I thought this topic deserved a thread of it's own. AS has recently pushed aggressive expansion in SFO and SAN and when VX is absorbed will have an ever more relevant position in SAN and especially SFO and LAX in the near future. Just thought I would start a discussion specifically more about how WN could be responding to the attack on their precious California market in the near future. WN has already responded in SAN by adding more than six new non stop routes beginning this Summer. Also adding non stops to PDX out of SFO and starting international service to PVR SJD out of OAK. I personally in the near term see WN finally opening an LAX crew base and that rumored terminal 0 next to terminal 1 at LAX becoming a reality allowing WN to significantly increase LAX presence and combat AS growth. Thoughts?


Didn't WN have their summer schedule come out before AS put out their new routes? Unless you are saying WN proactively did the new routes to combat what they thought AS would announce. That said it will be interesting moving forward, I am just not sure WN responded by adding routes when they were already added before AS announced all their new routes.


I'm pretty sure WN had the summer schedule with the new routes out of SAN before AS announced their explosive growth plan out of that airport specifically but it has been a slow and steady growth. For example, not really sure which routes were added first but adding flights to SJC, SMF, BWI and eventually SFO with the dissolution of VX. Markets where WN had a straight up monopoly out of SAN on I think was definitely enough reason for them to respond preemptively and aggressively especially with all of this public talk of AS declaring they want to be the California go to airline which WN also would like to say.
 
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ASQXSMFJETTER
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:52 am

Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!
 
Jshank83
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:46 am

ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


I rode on my first E175 Monday, although is was UA/Skywest. I really enjoyed it. It was a longer flight SFO-STL and I would fly it again. Especially, if I am traveling with someone and don't want to deal with a middle seat. Felt bigger and smoother than other 2x2 seat planes.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:54 am

SWADawg wrote:
AS will still have a steep hill to climb to match what WN does in CA. That's not to say they can't eventually, but it will be far more bloody for AS than WN and WN is 3 times the size of the combined AS/VX with much deeper pockets. It will no doubt keep the fares in CA rock bottom for years to come. So, good for the consumer no doubt about that.


Completely agree. That being said it will be a slow journey to build a network in CA. Building in OAK, BUR and SNA are important too if they want to challenge WN.
 
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intotheair
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:59 am

If we're talking about intra-California routes and some other western flying, then I think WN has a more than acceptable product, especially compared to AS. For one hour hops from the southland to the Bay Area on WN, a coach cabin with still decent pitch on a mainline plane is more than acceptable. I think WN has an equally loyal customer base as AS, if not more so, and I think they like that they know what they're getting on WN. If WN really thinks they're starting to have passengers slip away to AS and OALs with an F cabin, then I've long suggested that they could try doing a Euro-style business cabin product for Business Select fares. Block off middle seats, put the drinks in nice glassware, and give another round or two of the snack basket. That would be an easy way to test out a more premium product with minimal investment and an even easier way of backing out of it if it doesn't work.

For AS, while the combined network gives them a sizable presence in the Bay Area and LA, they still have a ways to go. WN's hourly shuttles between almost any combination of any major airport north and south is pretty tough to beat. And aside from a few intra-CA holes that they need to fill (BUR-SFO/OAK, for example), they are still pretty light in other top western destinations from CA. VX only flies 3x SFO-DEN, and no service on AS+VX from PHX to anywhere in CA.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:08 am

intotheair wrote:
If we're talking about intra-California routes and some other western flying, then I think WN has a more than acceptable product, especially compared to AS. For one hour hops from the southland to the Bay Area on WN, a coach cabin with still decent pitch on a mainline plane is more than acceptable. I think WN has an equally loyal customer base as AS, if not more so, and I think they like that they know what they're getting on WN. If WN really thinks they're starting to have passengers slip away to AS and OALs with an F cabin, then I've long suggested that they could try doing a Euro-style business cabin product for Business Select fares. Block off middle seats, put the drinks in nice glassware, and give another round or two of the snack basket. That would be an easy way to test out a more premium product with minimal investment and an even easier way of backing out of it if it doesn't work.

For AS, while the combined network gives them a sizable presence in the Bay Area and LA, they still have a ways to go. WN's hourly shuttles between almost any combination of any major airport north and south is pretty tough to beat. And aside from a few intra-CA holes that they need to fill (BUR-SFO/OAK, for example), they are still pretty light in other top western destinations from CA. VX only flies 3x SFO-DEN, and no service on AS+VX from PHX to anywhere in CA.


I agree completely. WN really is an ideal carrier for the intra-CA crowd, and the love WN.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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BMWdrvr75
Posts: 91
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:17 am

asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.

Why? WN has the best product ever.............there "cutting edge galley" on the new -800s and the MAX's are really the best thing the airline industry as ever seen.....people will continue to fly Southwest because they are Southwest and they absolutely have NO ROOM for improvement. Furthermore, why should they introduce any new cities in California i.e PSP or FAT? or from California such as HNL, OGG, LIH service...please don't suggest anything other than that because Southwest is the best thing since sliced bread.....I have learned my lesson on A.net to say only that....BEST SERVICE EVER....Alaska who???? oh and BTW Southwest has new gray uniforms now....
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
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ASQXSMFJETTER
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:27 am

intotheair wrote:
If we're talking about intra-California routes and some other western flying, then I think WN has a more than acceptable product, especially compared to AS. For one hour hops from the southland to the Bay Area on WN, a coach cabin with still decent pitch on a mainline plane is more than acceptable. I think WN has an equally loyal customer base as AS, if not more so, and I think they like that they know what they're getting on WN. If WN really thinks they're starting to have passengers slip away to AS and OALs with an F cabin, then I've long suggested that they could try doing a Euro-style business cabin product for Business Select fares. Block off middle seats, put the drinks in nice glassware, and give another round or two of the snack basket. That would be an easy way to test out a more premium product with minimal investment and an even easier way of backing out of it if it doesn't work.

For AS, while the combined network gives them a sizable presence in the Bay Area and LA, they still have a ways to go. WN's hourly shuttles between almost any combination of any major airport north and south is pretty tough to beat. And aside from a few intra-CA holes that they need to fill (BUR-SFO/OAK, for example), they are still pretty light in other top western destinations from CA. VX only flies 3x SFO-DEN, and no service on AS+VX from PHX to anywhere in CA.


One thing about WN is the on time performance is lacking when its comes to intra-California mainly because they have so many stops that I am noticing at least here in SMF, that by the time its evening, many of the flights are delayed, because they make so many point to point to point stops.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:42 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.

Why? WN has the best product ever.............there "cutting edge galley" on the new -800s and the MAX's are really the best thing the airline industry as ever seen.....people will continue to fly Southwest because they are Southwest and they absolutely have NO ROOM for improvement. Furthermore, why should they introduce any new cities in California i.e PSP or FAT? or from California such as HNL, OGG, LIH service...please don't suggest anything other than that because Southwest is the best thing since sliced bread.....I have learned my lesson on A.net to say only that....BEST SERVICE EVER....Alaska who???? oh and BTW Southwest has new gray uniforms now....


Nice exaggeration.

However, to be fair to WN, they have cultivated a following in CA that is perfectly content with what they offer. If people want something different, they have UA, AA, DL, VX, AS, etc to choose from.

I think some people get a bit defensive because WN has often been told that they aren't good enough, that they are the "trailer trash" or "Walmart" of airlines, that they don't offer any amenities, etc - but yet people flock to them. We know plenty of people in CA who don't even give it a second thought - they just book WN.

But they aren't for everyone, and that's a good thing I think. Diversity of choices is a plus.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:50 am

intotheair wrote:
If we're talking about intra-California routes and some other western flying, then I think WN has a more than acceptable product, especially compared to AS. For one hour hops from the southland to the Bay Area on WN, a coach cabin with still decent pitch on a mainline plane is more than acceptable. I think WN has an equally loyal customer base as AS, if not more so, and I think they like that they know what they're getting on WN. If WN really thinks they're starting to have passengers slip away to AS and OALs with an F cabin, then I've long suggested that they could try doing a Euro-style business cabin product for Business Select fares. Block off middle seats, put the drinks in nice glassware, and give another round or two of the snack basket. That would be an easy way to test out a more premium product with minimal investment and an even easier way of backing out of it if it doesn't work.

For AS, while the combined network gives them a sizable presence in the Bay Area and LA, they still have a ways to go. WN's hourly shuttles between almost any combination of any major airport north and south is pretty tough to beat. And aside from a few intra-CA holes that they need to fill (BUR-SFO/OAK, for example), they are still pretty light in other top western destinations from CA. VX only flies 3x SFO-DEN, and no service on AS+VX from PHX to anywhere in CA.


I think your assessment of the differentiation between AS and WN in terms of intra-CA are spot on. First class cabin aside- when it comes to coach on short haul, WN is a very comfortable and reliable choice for travelers. And it's an even better choice when it comes to airline choices for frequent fliers and business travelers who are tight on time. For example, being able to change reservations on same day of travel comes without any penalties. When there's a delay for any reason, passengers can go on standby to any other sister city without penalty. For example, if a flight from SFO to LAX is running late, a passenger can transfer to a flight from SFO to SNA or BUR instead. Bay Area frequent fliers travel more to Southern California by air than to any other domestic destination/region. WN has a large presence and network within California in terms of seats for sale and flight frequency- as well as coverage of markets between every Bay Area airport (SFO/SJC/OAK/SMF) and every major Southern California airport (LAX/LGB/BUR/SNA/ONT/SAN). For frequent fliers whose predominant travel plans are within California, WN is a no brainer in terms of choice. They offer high frequency, 2 free checked bags if desired/necessary, no change fees, ability to change destination airport during a delay, as well as decent coverage and destination offerings from most CA airports to other highly traveled west coast/western leisure & business destinations from California (LAS/PHX/DEN/PDX/SEA). Let's not forget their Rapid Rewards frequent flier program. Consistently ranked one of the best in the WORLD, and yet they don't fly overseas outside of North/Central America. No blackout dates, and 100% seat availability reward redemption. Meaning they will reward every single seat on a flight to those redeeming points so long as that seat is for sale. No other airline in the US has a frequent flier program this generous. For a business traveler or frequent leisure traveler flying between NorCal and SoCal, they've consistently remained the most preferred airline for the many reasons I've mentioned. Granted, if you're a frequent flier who flies mostly between CA and NYC or between CA and Hong Kong, then obviously WN isn't even in the equation. But within CA- the largest intrastate market in the United States, WN has consistently remained the largest carrier for being reliable and customer friendly. Customer service and amenities only matters so much when you're talking about :40-1:20 minute flights. Nobody cares about a first class seat, power outlets, or "fresh" sandwiches for sale. They want reliability, flexibility, and no additional charges. Also, what other US airline currently provides a full beverage service in coach on flights under 1 hour where mixed cocktails are actually served to you MIXED just as they're served in a bar or restaurant on a Friday night after a long work week? And without a cart blocking the aisle so you can freely use the lavatory to freshen up in time for your weekend Friday night before landing? And with a generous free cocktail/beer/wine coupon offering via their credit card and frequent flier program, as well as free adult beverages for everyone over 21 years of age on most holidays (St. Patrick's Day included lol?) Factor in the ability to earn frequent flier points to the most generous frequent flier program of any US carrier (and one that also flies to over 90 other cities throughout the country and the Caribbean, Central America, and Mexico)- and you instantly know why they're remained at the top in domestic travel in California for as long as they have. Besides power ports (which AS' regional fleet, that will comprise almost a third of the entire fleet shortly- don't even have) and buy on board food options, AS coach product doesn't offer anything different or much better.

If you're a frequent flier within the state of California who generally does not fly outside of the mainland US on a frequent basis (emphasis on "frequent"), 3 flights a day on a 76 seat aircraft in a market compared to 143/175 seat aircraft at an airline with anywhere from 6 to 13 flights a day in the same market- and with liberal and flexible itinerary policies/free checked bags/generous frequent flier program obviously makes WN a more desirable choice. Granted, competition is healthy and I think AS and WN can coexist short/mid term in these markets. If you are NOT a frequent flier and travel solely based on airfare, then AS might be appealing if they are offering the lowest fare. Even Spirit, which attempted an entry into the intra-CA market a few years ago, hasn't been able to sustain more than 3 daily flights between OAK and LAX (a market in which WN flies 13 flights daily, DL 4 daily- 3 on regional aircraft and one 738).
Last edited by airplaneboy on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:50 am

WN is a great airline, and AS has no plans to "unseat" them; they'd just love to be considered another great option for people on the West Coast, and California in particular. AS will be opportunistic where they see the potential to make money, but won't be picking fights with WN, UA, or anyone else just for the sake of stealing market share.

If AS offers a compelling value with great service, customers will try them, and hopefully like them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:51 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:
asteriskceo wrote:
WN needs to focus on improving their product.

Why? WN has the best product ever.............there "cutting edge galley" on the new -800s and the MAX's are really the best thing the airline industry as ever seen.....people will continue to fly Southwest because they are Southwest and they absolutely have NO ROOM for improvement. Furthermore, why should they introduce any new cities in California i.e PSP or FAT? or from California such as HNL, OGG, LIH service...please don't suggest anything other than that because Southwest is the best thing since sliced bread.....I have learned my lesson on A.net to say only that....BEST SERVICE EVER....Alaska who???? oh and BTW Southwest has new gray uniforms now....


Nice exaggeration.

However, to be fair to WN, they have cultivated a following in CA that is perfectly content with what they offer. If people want something different, they have UA, AA, DL, VX, AS, etc to choose from.

I think some people get a bit defensive because WN has often been told that they aren't good enough, that they are the "trailer trash" or "Walmart" of airlines, that they don't offer any amenities, etc - but yet people flock to them. We know plenty of people in CA who don't even give it a second thought - they just book WN.

But they aren't for everyone, and that's a good thing I think. Diversity of choices is a plus.

Dave, et al-
I was not exaggerating.....this is truly what the folks at WN think...and in regards to their new galley on the MAX and new -800's that was a Gary Kelly quote......Moreover a cutting edge galley is the Aeromexico 787 galley or the AA 777-300er First/Business class bar.....however, since the flight attendants can use a tray from the "cutting edge galley" and have a coffee warmer in the 1L galley WN and Gary think is is "cutting edge"...........WN is moving into the 90's with ONERES maybe they should move into the 80's with their IFS. Another issue you should hear the comments about the MAX, you would think they are bringing the 787 into the fleet.....really????? the MAX is a 50 year old 737 with quiet, fuel efficient jets.....it not earth shattering.......I just flew AA First and Business Class LAX-HKG on 777-300er and PVG-LAX on a 787 now that is a game changer........
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
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intotheair
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:12 am

EA CO AS wrote:
WN is a great airline, and AS has no plans to "unseat" them; they'd just love to be considered another great option for people on the West Coast, and California in particular. AS will be opportunistic where they see the potential to make money, but won't be picking fights with WN, UA, or anyone else just for the sake of stealing market share.

If AS offers a compelling value with great service, customers will try them, and hopefully like them.


Maybe so. That's sort of what AS' strategy was pre-merger with building up presence at OAK, SJC, SNA, and SAN.

For me, while I loved flying AS when I lived in Oregon, I still don't think they will be even my fourth choice carrier here in LA. I live closer to BUR but usually fly out of LAX. Going to visit family in DEN? Well, neither AS nor VX are an option. I suppose there's AA, but relying on codeshares to serve major destinations like DEN seems like a little bit of a cop out, and I'm not a huge AA fan. Going for business or to visit friends in the SF East Bay? I suppose I could do LAX-SFO on VX, but that's still a tough sell over BUR-OAK on WN or Comfort+ on DL. I never considered VX when I lived in SFO because they didn't fly to DEN at the time, though seeing how they are now and how crappy UA is, I probably would have given them the chance.

I know that's only anecdotal experience, but if AS bought VX for greater penetration into California markets, they still have a ways to go. I think AS is a great airline and can be successful here, but if schedule, convenience, and a flexible change policy are why Californians choose WN, then AS better be prepared to punch above its own weight and do the same.
Last edited by intotheair on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:15 am

ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
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fraspotter
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:33 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


Maybe 44 consecutive years of profitability might have something to do with it and with good reason. Funny how people on the outside looking in always see it as arrogance as if other airlines aren't the same way. You can't say that Alaska in Seattle, American in Fort Worth, Delta in Atlanta etc don't do the exact same thing because they do.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:43 am

fraspotter wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:
ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


Maybe 44 consecutive years of profitability might have something to do with it and with good reason. Funny how people on the outside looking in always see it as arrogance as if other airlines aren't the same way. You can't say that Alaska in Seattle, American in Fort Worth, Delta in Atlanta etc don't do the exact same thing because they do.


Not looking in from the outside.....................
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
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fraspotter
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:43 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:

Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


Maybe 44 consecutive years of profitability might have something to do with it and with good reason. Funny how people on the outside looking in always see it as arrogance as if other airlines aren't the same way. You can't say that Alaska in Seattle, American in Fort Worth, Delta in Atlanta etc don't do the exact same thing because they do.


Not looking in from the outside.....................


So you work for Southwest? If you hate it so much then leave. "arrogant about how good they are"? Because they say "Alaska who?"? Since when did that become a crime? If anything it was a tongue in cheek remark. If that constitutes "arrogance" then I'm afraid to ask you what "having pride in where you work" looks like. Besides, until the merger is finalized AS doesn't serve DAL. With WN's main focus on AA across town, "Alaska who?" seems fitting.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
jplatts
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Will Southwest Airlines expand from LAX to Florida? Southwest does have nonstops from San Diego to Orlando and nonstop service to Florida destinations from Phoenix and Las Vegas, but currently does not operate any nonstops to Florida from Seattle, Portland, SF Bay Area, Sacramento, or the Greater Los Angeles Area?
 
hiflyeras
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:56 pm

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


I'm sure they well know who 'Alaska' is...they're the ones driving them out of competing markets in SEA. WN has never been able to compete with AS out of SEA...there's a long list of abandoned WN routes. They've been doing it out of SEA and now they're going to take a good chunk of their California customers.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:04 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
WN also has far more seats and frequency to all of California's major airports. It'd take 10-20 years of buildup for AS to match that. Hopefully they'll grow to become a legitimate competitor but WN is likely to remain dominant for intrastate flying for the near-mid term future.


Can any of the data gurus of a.net list avg daily seats and departures, both intra-California and from all California? LAWA data show that, in total seats from LAX it's WN by lots -- but that not specifically intra-CA.
 
jplatts
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:32 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:
ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


I'm sure they well know who 'Alaska' is...they're the ones driving them out of competing markets in SEA. WN has never been able to compete with AS out of SEA...there's a long list of abandoned WN routes. They've been doing it out of SEA and now they're going to take a good chunk of their California customers.


Despite some of the cuts Southwest had made at SEA, Southwest had added SEA-DAL and SEA-AUS back in 2015 and extended the SEA-MCI and SEA-STL nonstops to year-round service last year. Southwest is actually adding additional nonstops this summer from Seattle to Chicago Midway, Denver, and Sacramento, and a 2nd nonstop from Seattle to San Diego during the summer travel season. Southwest will also be adding a 7th nonstop between Seattle and Oakland in August.
 
usflyguy
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:03 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:
ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
Quite Frankly,

In regards to the E-175 it is actually quite a beautiful aircraft inside, quiet, comfortable and reliable. I think AS is actually a big contender in this west coast battle. Either way this is win for consumers!


Absolutely.......However, WN has such an arrogant attitude about how good they are......the folks in DAL constantly say "Alaska who?" WN needs to take a look at the California market, improve and exceed our expectations as they did in the '70s.....


I'm sure they well know who 'Alaska' is...they're the ones driving them out of competing markets in SEA. WN has never been able to compete with AS out of SEA...there's a long list of abandoned WN routes. They've been doing it out of SEA and now they're going to take a good chunk of their California customers.


Like AS previously did at SNA and SJC? Oh wait, SNA didn't workout like they hoped and SJC has seen a couple of routes come and go.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
phluser
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:08 pm

jplatts wrote:
Will Southwest Airlines expand from LAX to Florida?


There is also LAX-SEA which is notably missing, that is shorter stage length and supports more business traffic. It's the fifth busiest destination from LAX. WN would rather be on SEA-LAS or PHX, and on the LAX side, keep gates for flights to smaller destinations like IND. So WN avoided directly competing on LAX-SEA where it was too competitive.

If WN is confident that it stands against AS and the legacies in onboard experience, then it should have no qualms about competing on this 3 hour competitive route. The AS VX merging actually removes a competitor. No excuses for WN to not be on it, especially given WN's massive LAX operation and FF support in So Cal.
 
rrapynot
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Re: AS vs. WN in California moving forward

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:21 pm

WN flying STS-LAX would really upset the apple cart.

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