jplatts
Topic Author
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jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:19 am

jetBlue currently operates 2 nonstops between DFW and Boston. Would jetBlue want to move the DFW-BOS service to Dallas Love Field, or would jetBlue want to remain at DFW Airport?

jetBlue currently does not have any nonstops between DFW and JFK, but jetBlue could add nonstop service to JFK from Dallas, especially if the Virgin America DAL-LGA nonstops get discontinued. jetBlue could do well on a DFW-JFK flight because jetBlue has name recognition in NYC, because there is so much demand for Dallas-NYC flights, and because Southwest has limited room to add additional flights to NYC out of Dallas Love Field (even though it already has 4 nonstops from DAL to LGA). jetBlue DFW-JFK nonstops would provide DFW-area customers with connections to destinations in upstate New York and New England that are not served nonstop from DFW or DAL, and the Southwest DAL-LGA, Virgin America DAL-LGA, and Spirit DFW-LGA flights do not provide the access to the connections that the jetBlue DFW-JFK nonstops would.

jetBlue could also add nonstops between DFW and FLL. American has 10-12 daily nonstops between DFW and MIA, 6 nonstops between DFW and FLL, and 2-3 nonstops between DFW and PBI. Southwest only has 2 daily nonstops between DAL and FLL. Spirit only has 2 daily nonstops between DFW and FLL. In addition, jetBlue also has connections through FLL to destinations in the Carribean and South America that Southwest does not serve.

Will jetBlue end up adding nonstops from Dallas to JFK and FLL?
 
globalcabotage
Posts: 534
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:27 am

First, no gates at DAL.
Second, AA will protect DFW.

B6 is in a tough spot at DFW, similar to ORD. DFW and CHI are loyal markets to the incumbents. AA has strong O&D at both along with WN. Throw in UA at ORD, and it gets tougher.
 
boslax
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:46 am

jplatts wrote:
jetBlue could do well on a DFW-JFK flight because jetBlue has name recognition in NYC


Doubtful as jetBlue has great name recognition in Boston and still DFW is one of their least profitable routes from BOS. I can't see jetBlue adding any capacity into DFW until their BOS flights improve.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:20 am

It has always been a head scratcher for me as to why B6 went into DFW with only two flights to/from Boston and did not at
least try JFK and FLL to/from DFW.
 
jplatts
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:26 am

globalcabotage wrote:
First, no gates at DAL.
Second, AA will protect DFW.

B6 is in a tough spot at DFW, similar to ORD. DFW and CHI are loyal markets to the incumbents. AA has strong O&D at both along with WN. Throw in UA at ORD, and it gets tougher.


JetBlue actually has nonstops from ORD to JFK, and both American and Delta also have nonstops from ORD to JFK. The JetBlue ORD-JFK flights also competes against CHI-LGA flights on American, Delta, United, Southwest, and Spirit and CHI-EWR flights on American, United, and Southwest.

JetBlue also has nonstops from ORD to FLL, and that route competes against American, United, Southwest, and Spirit flights from Chicago to FLL and on American, United, and Frontier flights from Chicago to MIA.

JetBlue faces additional competition on ORD-FLL from United and Frontier that it would not face on a DFW-FLL nonstop. In addition to ORD-FLL, JetBlue also has nonstops from FLL to American's hubs at Los Angeles, New York-LaGuardia, New York-JFK, Philadelphia, and Washington-Reagan. Why would JetBlue have trouble competing with American on DFW-FLL if it can successfully compete with American on flights to FLL from 6 of American's hub airports?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:26 am

I see B6 completely dropping the Metroplex from their route map before I see them moving DAL. DFW has long been one of their worst performing stations; it is only kept around because it is needed for some Boston-area corporate contracts...
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:40 am

globalcabotage wrote:
B6 is in a tough spot at DFW, similar to ORD. DFW and CHI are loyal markets to the incumbents.


I think it's difficult to test the loyalty hypothesis when B6 has virtually no presence. If you're the 99% of passengers not going to BOS, then B6 doesn't even appear on your radar.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
jplatts
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:44 am

usflyer msp wrote:
I see B6 completely dropping the Metroplex from their route map before I see them moving DAL. DFW has long been one of their worst performing stations; it is only kept around because it is needed for some Boston-area corporate contracts...


Is the competition from Southwest's DAL-BOS nonstop making the performance of jetBlue's DFW-BOS flights worse than it was before Southwest added its DAL-BOS nonstop?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:50 am

jplatts wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I see B6 completely dropping the Metroplex from their route map before I see them moving DAL. DFW has long been one of their worst performing stations; it is only kept around because it is needed for some Boston-area corporate contracts...


Is the competition from Southwest's DAL-BOS nonstop making the performance of jetBlue's DFW-BOS flights worse than it was before Southwest added its DAL-BOS nonstop?


I would say probably not much . Even before WN's entry, B6 used to sometimes sell DFW-BOS tickets for $49 ow...
 
texan
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:19 am

B6 originally wanted to serve DAL. They were quite frustrated by the Wright 'compromise'.

If the DAL gates became available, I'm sure they would do their due diligence on it. That doesn't mean they would or would even want to move, and most airlines that could potentially serve DAL would likely do the same due diligence on it. If they think it will be better for them, they'll do it. If not, they won't. But certainly wouldn't think DFW/DAL-FLL would be high on their radar.

Texan
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FLIHGH
Posts: 252
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:25 am

AA and DL only have a single daily DFW-JFK flight each. The real demand is DFW-LGA. No way JB would use one of their LGA slots on a station like DFW.
 
freakyrat
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:46 pm

B6 dropped their morning nonstop to BOS. Now it really makes no sense to fly them if you you go to BOS on business or you want to make connedtions to the Cape.
 
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dvincent
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:52 pm

The scheduling for DFW is just really terrible. No real evening outbounds out of BOS. Eaarliest one is 2:30. Most of us need to leave at 6-ish for workday reasons. Still baffling.
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jfklganyc
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:15 pm

B6 at DFW is the summation of everything that is wrong with JetBlue. Low frequency, only one hub served, terrible financial performance.

Like so many other stations...the question is why bother?

I would like to see if (big if) ATL to JFK and FLL start. They were supposed to. But quite quiet about those routes lately.

If they dont jump in in ATL, it will look a lot like DFW in a few years
 
phluser
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:08 pm

dvincent wrote:
The scheduling for DFW is just really terrible. No real evening outbounds out of BOS. Eaarliest one is 2:30. Most of us need to leave at 6-ish for workday reasons. Still baffling.


But such would require an extra hotel night for the Boston based traveler heading to Dallas. The consultant way is to fly out in the morning, head to the client office, have a meeting, and eventually reach the hotel in the afternoon/evening, rather than fly the night before and expense an hotel room for it. Granted Dallas offsite hotel room rates can be cheap, but the practice is still to not bill too many hotel nights.

With B6's limited capacity for Dallas, it chose a morning and afternoon likely as it felt the demand would be better for morning service to a business market.

I'm not saying adding an evening flight would be a bad idea, but given the constraints or hardships of B6 in Dallas, morning and afternoon departures out of BOS make better sense.
 
phluser
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:13 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
It has always been a head scratcher for me as to why B6 went into DFW with only two flights to/from Boston and did not at
least try JFK and FLL to/from DFW.


It should add FLL. From knope's list the other day, Dallas is in the top 10 domestic markets to South Florida, and DEN is close afterwards. It could be popular for leisure pax, connections, and reverse traffic of South Floridians, that use B6 often, heading to Dallas.
 
phluser
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:15 pm

jfklganyc wrote:

If they dont jump in in ATL, it will look a lot like DFW in a few years


A difference with ATL is it's a lot shorter distance from BOS, NY and the Florida markets. It's not as painful for B6 to say add an extra flight when necessary.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:31 pm

dvincent wrote:
The scheduling for DFW is just really terrible. No real evening outbounds out of BOS. Eaarliest one is 2:30. Most of us need to leave at 6-ish for workday reasons. Still baffling.


Sounds like AA's flight BOS-DFW at 5:45PM would be perfect.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
dvincent wrote:
The scheduling for DFW is just really terrible. No real evening outbounds out of BOS. Eaarliest one is 2:30. Most of us need to leave at 6-ish for workday reasons. Still baffling.


Sounds like AA's flight BOS-DFW at 5:45PM would be perfect.


That's his point. AA offers great schedule options. B6 doesn't.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:49 pm

phluser wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
It has always been a head scratcher for me as to why B6 went into DFW with only two flights to/from Boston and did not at
least try JFK and FLL to/from DFW.


It should add FLL. From knope's list the other day, Dallas is in the top 10 domestic markets to South Florida, and DEN is close afterwards. It could be popular for leisure pax, connections, and reverse traffic of South Floridians, that use B6 often, heading to Dallas.


Absolutely agree. When and if FLL expands to deep South America it will become necessary to add DFW to FLL flights to find those flights.
 
phluser
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:07 pm

FLIHGH wrote:
No way JB would use one of their LGA slots on a station like DFW.


There is slot free EWR that can be channeled for NYC. WN and AS/VX don't compete on DAL-EWR, but UA was aggressive DAL-EWR fares, atleast for a period while DAL-LGA was getting competitive.

B6 is too conservative, for 1x daily style service out of EWR and the idea is too NK/F9 style, and it will maximize EWR for primarily Florida service. However, a BOS-EWR-DFW flight say in the afternoon evening could fill two needs, providing an evening (albeit one stop) option for loyal BOS based B6 fliers needing to reach Dallas, and providing B6 customers in Dallas another destination (New York).
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:01 pm

phluser wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
It has always been a head scratcher for me as to why B6 went into DFW with only two flights to/from Boston and did not at
least try JFK and FLL to/from DFW.


It should add FLL. From knope's list the other day, Dallas is in the top 10 domestic markets to South Florida, and DEN is close afterwards. It could be popular for leisure pax, connections, and reverse traffic of South Floridians, that use B6 often, heading to Dallas.


There are already three carriers from Dallas to FLL. AA & NK from DFW, WN from DAL. I'm sure NK would be pleased to undercut any fares B6 would offer. AA isn't going to sweat them. Sooner or later, DAL will be back to having WN exclusively. Face it, B6 simply cannot get any reasonable traction in the middle of the nation.
 
jumbojet
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:22 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I would like to see if (big if) ATL to JFK and FLL start. They were supposed to. But quite quiet about those routes lately.

If they dont jump in in ATL, it will look a lot like DFW in a few years


So, B6 being unhappy about the ATL gate situation is going to cause them to nix these ATL flights? Not getting access to the gates they thought they were getting hardly seems a valid reason to just kill ATL-FLL and ATL-JFK. Maybe they just determined that ATL is not the best of places to try and add capacity, same can be said for DFW.

I think the bigger question to ask is, will BOS-ATL be successful on JetBlue? I am not so sure....stay tuned for what I feel will be a very quite withdrawal of B6 from ATL-BOS.
 
RockIsland41
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:48 pm

Just don't see B6 getting gate space at DAL. Not with the AS possibility especially, plus the current legal case.
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:30 pm

RockIsland41 wrote:
Just don't see B6 getting gate space at DAL. Not with the AS possibility especially, plus the current legal case.


It's likely AS will consolidate at DFW. Sooner or later, WN will be in all 20 gates at DAL. Love Filed will have come full circle then.
 
fastmover
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:05 am

jumbojet wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I would like to see if (big if) ATL to JFK and FLL start. They were supposed to. But quite quiet about those routes lately.

If they dont jump in in ATL, it will look a lot like DFW in a few years


So, B6 being unhappy about the ATL gate situation is going to cause them to nix these ATL flights? Not getting access to the gates they thought they were getting hardly seems a valid reason to just kill ATL-FLL and ATL-JFK. Maybe they just determined that ATL is not the best of places to try and add capacity, same can be said for DFW.

I think the bigger question to ask is, will BOS-ATL be successful on JetBlue? I am not so sure....stay tuned for what I feel will be a very quite withdrawal of B6 from ATL-BOS.


you would say that.
I guess by your logic DTW-BOS shouldn't be there anymore, but it is
 
jumbojet
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:22 am

fastmover wrote:
[
you would say that.
I guess by your logic DTW-BOS shouldn't be there anymore, but it is


BOS-DTW is 3x daily with E190 aircraft. Loads aren't terrific on most days, most flights.

All I am saying is, lets see how BOS-ATL does, with 5x A320 aircraft, might be to much for JetBlue to handle. I can see them scaling back to 3x daily with E190. That might work better for them. Delta kills both those markets with capacity out the waazoo. DTW and ATL are Delta country. I wish B6 good luck with anything more than the Embraer; they will need it.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:24 am

B6 serves DFW solely to appease its growing book of corporate business in BOS. I don't think that B6 cares at all to expand DFW, and instead is focusing on its strengths in BOS, NYC, FLL, and its Mint franchise.

That said, I do think DFW will be connected to FLL - sooner, rather than later. As noted above, it's a Top 10 market from FLL (although, I suspect, much more seasonal than - say - DCA-FLL).

B6's presence in HOU is almost equally as underwhelming. 1x to BOS and 1x to JFK.
 
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flymco753
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:07 am

jumbojet wrote:
fastmover wrote:
[
you would say that.
I guess by your logic DTW-BOS shouldn't be there anymore, but it is


BOS-DTW is 3x daily with E190 aircraft. Loads aren't terrific on most days, most flights.

All I am saying is, lets see how BOS-ATL does, with 5x A320 aircraft, might be to much for JetBlue to handle. I can see them scaling back to 3x daily with E190. That might work better for them. Delta kills both those markets with capacity out the waazoo. DTW and ATL are Delta country. I wish B6 good luck with anything more than the Embraer; they will need it.
The last departure to BOS is generally an A320 but it went to an E190 for some reason, that flight does pretty well, I think it departs around 7:15pm
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FlyUSAir
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:11 am

jfklganyc wrote:
B6 at DFW is the summation of everything that is wrong with JetBlue. Low frequency, only one hub served, terrible financial performance.

Like so many other stations...the question is why bother?

I would like to see if (big if) ATL to JFK and FLL start. They were supposed to. But quite quiet about those routes lately.

If they dont jump in in ATL, it will look a lot like DFW in a few years


Proof?

Show me on the A320 where JetBlue hurt you.
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:40 am

jumbojet wrote:
fastmover wrote:
[
you would say that.
I guess by your logic DTW-BOS shouldn't be there anymore, but it is


BOS-DTW is 3x daily with E190 aircraft. Loads aren't terrific on most days, most flights.

All I am saying is, lets see how BOS-ATL does, with 5x A320 aircraft, might be to much for JetBlue to handle. I can see them scaling back to 3x daily with E190. That might work better for them. Delta kills both those markets with capacity out the waazoo. DTW and ATL are Delta country. I wish B6 good luck with anything more than the Embraer;n they will need it.


Oh I doubt you wish them luck.
They will be just fine.
 
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dvincent
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Re: jetBlue in Dallas

Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:37 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
dvincent wrote:
The scheduling for DFW is just really terrible. No real evening outbounds out of BOS. Eaarliest one is 2:30. Most of us need to leave at 6-ish for workday reasons. Still baffling.


Sounds like AA's flight BOS-DFW at 5:45PM would be perfect.


And it is, much to my chagrin. I know that flight well. I don't like giving American my or my company's money, but that happens sometimes. There are some cases where I need to be in a place early in the AM for business and a possible delay just won't do when it's cutting it close. Even on time it can mean not getting somewhere until 11 AM or even noon depending on location and traffic. When an install takes all day and you have to show up at the customer at 8 in the morning, the only option is to fly out the day before.

Departing at 2:30 basically means losing the vast majority of the day at the office coming from northwestern 128.

It wasn't always this way. I remember flying out once on a 6 PMish departure on an E190 (circa 2013), but I'm guessing they were getting clobbered by AA in the evening hours.

FWIW, WN's nonstop out of BOS to DAL is at 12:50PM, which to me is neither fish nor fowl. At least B6 has that AM departure.
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