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boilerla
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Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:32 pm

According to the pilots, more than 20,000 stand-by passengers were left behind in February to make sure the flights left on time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStor ... s-46336564

Not sure how I feel about this. If I had been a standby passenger, I'd be awfully ticked, but since AA is near the bottom of the barrel for on-time performance I can see the need for some action to be taken.
 
flyingcat
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:37 pm

If this is true, it would kill employee morale across all departments and divisions. AA needs to confront this ASAP before this story gets some legs.
 
Delta739
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:43 pm

In the book Sully he talked about US Airways having trouble with this back in 2005 because gate agents are evaluated on on time departures so they do not want to spend the extra time to board standbys. They had later made it policy that if seats were available for standby than they had to be used. That might have not gone on to AA?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:55 pm

How many of those 20K standbys were revenue passengers, and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad? AA and AA Eagle operated about 150K flights last month, right?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Always google an airline and its employee group when this sort of statement is posted. This statement likely has little to do with anyone caring about standby passengers.

On Feb. 14, the AA pilots' union voted no confidence in the airline's executive team, and earlier this month filed a grievance with the carrier and arbitrators over a rule matter (fatigue regulations). All is apparently not well between AA and its pilots. This statement is probably a bluster-volley in the pilots' union's positioning.

Jim
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bigb
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:57 pm

These numbers include rev stand-bys also
 
ooslc
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:23 pm

When I worked for an airline I always had time to clear my standbys at D-10. The standbys were ALWAYS standing in front of your or sitting real close. It was easy to just write on their boarding pass what seat to take, and deal with the paperwork right after they boarded. This is just ridiculous for AA to do. I would be pissed as an employee if I got left behind on a flight.
    Ironically, I don't work for OO anymore, and I'm not in SLC anymore. PDX based, aviation enthusiast, non-aviation worker.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:30 pm

They are using data that shows all standbys listed not those actually at the gate. That be a huge difference.
 
seatback
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:33 pm

This happened to me a few months ago on United...I, along with six others were revenue paxs onnecting in Chicago. The plane was there, but not an employee in sight. The door closed a good 13 minutes before schedule, published departure. Awful. I won't fly UA through ORD again.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:42 pm

I do wonder how many of those 20,000 passengers were non revenue standbys not at the gate. It is common to have a trunk route between two hubs have a dozen no show standbys.

Leaving no rev passengers behind on occasion is ok in my opinion. Everything should be done to fill every seat, but sometimes flights are late and it is chaotic. If people aren't ready to go, or on rare occasion I can see it happening. One occasion where a non rev pilot missed a flight can circle the rumor mill in the flight decks. It kills morale when employees commuting can't make it.
 
subramak1
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:00 pm

It happened last night to me with AA. The plane was pulled back from gate before departure time, left me stranded
 
catdaddy63
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:04 pm

And what happens if a family of four is top of the standby list but only one or two seats is available? Either split the family or they wait for the next flight. That accounts for some of the 20,000. And how many weren't in the gate area when called?
 
sas931
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:11 pm

it is a question of starting the acceptance of standby passengers a little earlier and not on STD....how hard can it be ??
the acceptance routine must be changed....sin they should know roughly 10-15 minutes prior to STD, how many seats
they have available...
 
OB1504
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:34 pm

AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.

subramak1 wrote:
It happened last night to me with AA. The plane was pulled back from gate before departure time, left me stranded


At what time did you get to the gate? If everyone's on board—including all the standbys at the gate—then they're going to go.

sas931 wrote:
it is a question of starting the acceptance of standby passengers a little earlier and not on STD....how hard can it be ??
the acceptance routine must be changed....sin they should know roughly 10-15 minutes prior to STD, how many seats
they have available...


Standbys are generally processed no later than 15 minutes before departure, when the seats of confirmed passengers who haven't shown up yet are dropped (standbys often clear earlier if the flight is not booked to capacity). Doors close 10 minutes before departure.
 
subramak1
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:03 pm

OB1504 wrote:
AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.

subramak1 wrote:
It happened last night to me with AA. The plane was pulled back from gate before departure time, left me stranded


At what time did you get to the gate? If everyone's on board—including all the standbys at the gate—then they're going to go.

sas931 wrote:
it is a question of starting the acceptance of standby passengers a little earlier and not on STD....how hard can it be ??
the acceptance routine must be changed....sin they should know roughly 10-15 minutes prior to STD, how many seats
they have available...


Standbys are generally processed no later than 15 minutes before departure, when the seats of confirmed passengers who haven't shown up yet are dropped (standbys often clear earlier if the flight is not booked to capacity). Doors close 10 minutes before departure.


I was at the gate 10 mins before departure.

Subu
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:28 pm

AA pilots seem to care more about the passenger experience when they want a pay raise.
 
ryan78
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:40 pm

I travel as a non-rev standby very frequently (few times a month) on an airline we have an agreement with, therefore I am always the lowest on the priority. 3 out of my last 4 flights have been sold out and get this, I was 6th, 4th and 10th in standby priority and I've still managed to get seats at the last minute. Often times I find, especially on trunk routes, I can have a terrible priority and when the gate agents start calling the names of standby's ahead of me they don't show up. I guess people figure I'll just sit in the lounge and jump on the next flight. This is where the numbers get skewed a little bit, you could have 10 standby's checked in for 1 flight and more then half of them don't even bother going to the gate because they don't think they will get on. If it's 5 mins to departure time and you've been paging standbys for a few minutes already, its time to button up and get that airplane outta here, no point in delaying the flight. If you are standby you should always be hovering around the gate and waiting for announcements so you can get a seat as quickly as possible.

In my experience I've always gone up to the gate agent before boarding starts and if the flight isn't full, I am usually assigned my seat right there on the spot. Sometimes if I'm lucky when checking in, the check-in agents will actually assign me a seat at the counter if the flight is pretty empty. It is rare because it is not company policy but a little sweet talking and flirting can get you further than you think. ;)
 
AirbusMDCFAN
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:44 pm

subramak1 wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.

subramak1 wrote:
It happened last night to me with AA. The plane was pulled back from gate before departure time, left me stranded


At what time did you get to the gate? If everyone's on board—including all the standbys at the gate—then they're going to go.

sas931 wrote:
it is a question of starting the acceptance of standby passengers a little earlier and not on STD....how hard can it be ??
the acceptance routine must be changed....sin they should know roughly 10-15 minutes prior to STD, how many seats
they have available...


Standbys are generally processed no later than 15 minutes before departure, when the seats of confirmed passengers who haven't shown up yet are dropped (standbys often clear earlier if the flight is not booked to capacity). Doors close 10 minutes before departure.


I was at the gate 10 mins before departure.

Subu


10 minutes before departure for standby does not cut it. If your not on board seated, and strapped in, then it is all on the standby. Although I work for an airline, I as a rule of thumb buy my tickets anyway to make sure I am were I need to be. I am always at my gate 1 1/2 - 2 hours prior to STD.
 
PITflights
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:48 pm

This is a campaign of the pilot union to kill AA - it's amazing how immature this group is and the games they play
 
113312
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:54 pm

United did it to me a few years ago. I was in first class from EWR with a connection in SFO. We arrived late and the connecting flight departed early. Knowing I would arrive in SFO late (but still able to make the connection), UAL rebooked me on the first flight for the next morning. No agent to inform me of this and no lodging provided. I could have driven to my final destination in five hours. BUT, UAL got an on time departure and arrival from the flight I had been booked on. The incentives to avoid a late departure, even on the final flight of the day, seem more important than serving even the most loyal and profitable customers. It wasn't always so.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:55 pm

seatback wrote:
This happened to me a few months ago on United...I, along with six others were revenue paxs onnecting in Chicago. The plane was there, but not an employee in sight. The door closed a good 13 minutes before schedule, published departure. Awful. I won't fly UA through ORD again.

Flights close 15 minutes prior to departure as printed on your boarding pass.
SFO
 
subramak1
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:27 pm

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.



At what time did you get to the gate? If everyone's on board—including all the standbys at the gate—then they're going to go.



Standbys are generally processed no later than 15 minutes before departure, when the seats of confirmed passengers who haven't shown up yet are dropped (standbys often clear earlier if the flight is not booked to capacity). Doors close 10 minutes before departure.


I was at the gate 10 mins before departure.

Subu


10 minutes before departure for standby does not cut it. If your not on board seated, and strapped in, then it is all on the standby. Although I work for an airline, I as a rule of thumb buy my tickets anyway to make sure I am were I need to be. I am always at my gate 1 1/2 - 2 hours prior to STD.


Sorry , was not clear. I was in paid F

Subu
 
jayunited
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:40 pm

It seems as if we are mashing three separate issues together. We have people on this thread who were left behind as a revenue passenger holding a confirmed ticket, then we have revenue standbys and lastly non-revenue standbys.

First of all non-revenue standbys are using a benefit and I don't know of any major airline that will take a delay to put non-revenue passengers onboard an airplane.
Next we have revenue- standbys and I'll just include confirmed passengers as well because both types of passengers have bought a revenue ticket. Now there are several reasons why revenue -standbys are left behind. The number one reason is because the aircraft is completely full, secondly at most major U.S. carriers if the flight is full and there are plenty of connecting passengers most times those connecting passengers if they have a tight connection or a questionable connecting (meaning they may make the flight and they may not) those passenger seats are not dropped till the last possible moment, because the last thing a gate agent wants to do is give a confirmed seat aways to a standby only to have the actual confirmed passenger show up and the flight is still open. At United the flight closes 15 minutes prior to departure most connecting passengers are dropped 25 minutes prior to departure that is just a ten minute window to clear standby both revenue and non-revenue. If the gate agent is running behind or boarding looking a little longer that it should and station operations or a manager calls and says we are going on-time then we go onetime and leave all standbys behind.
No one likes doing this but delays cost money and with airlines trying to keep their costs in check one of the ways to save money and cut cost is by reducing delays because even though the engines aren't running and the crew is not being paid till the breaks are release the aircraft is still costing the airline money because the APU is running. Depending on the size on the aircraft running the APU can cost up to $400 dollars per hour. (That is what is cost UA to run the APU for one hour on a 744). In addition to that there are a lot of different factors at play behind the scenes, station operations has to keep in mind, crew legality for both pilots and FA's (and when you are talking about airlines like AA, DL, and UA) you could have a crew member whose day started at 7am and other at 8:30am and another at 12pm. They have to think about crew legality and airlines don't have an unlimited supply of crew so they try to avoid crew legality as must as possible. There is also curfew, weather, there are many different reasons why airlines are now more than ever pushing on-time departure.
 
toltommy
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:55 pm

subramak1 wrote:
Sorry, was not clear. I was in paid F


Then since you arrived at the gate 10 minutes prior to departure, fare class is not relevant. You had a responsibility to be at gate 15 minutes prior to arrival. It's in the Contract of Carriage:

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-servic ... sp#checkin

Arrival at Gate
You must be at the gate and ready to board the aircraft:

15 minutes prior to scheduled departure for flights departing from points -within- the U.S., Puerto Rico, and Virgin Islands
30 minutes prior to scheduled departure for flights departing from points -outside- the U.S., Puerto Rico, and Virgin Islands, i.e., Canada, Mexico, Europe, Asia, Central/South America, Caribbean, Bahamas, Bermuda
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
/762/763/764/772/788/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440 /700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
wn676
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:02 pm

subramak1 wrote:
AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
subramak1 wrote:

I was at the gate 10 mins before departure.

Subu


10 minutes before departure for standby does not cut it. If your not on board seated, and strapped in, then it is all on the standby. Although I work for an airline, I as a rule of thumb buy my tickets anyway to make sure I am were I need to be. I am always at my gate 1 1/2 - 2 hours prior to STD.


Sorry , was not clear. I was in paid F

Subu


So if you weren't standby, how is this relevant to the discussion?
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:03 pm

seatback wrote:
This happened to me a few months ago on United...I, along with six others were revenue paxs onnecting in Chicago. The plane was there, but not an employee in sight. The door closed a good 13 minutes before schedule, published departure. Awful. I won't fly UA through ORD again.


It's been a couple years but I, too, was changing planes at ORD. There was no agent in sight at the new gate, but the jetway door was open. So, I walked down the jetway and got on the plane. There was some problem with an unaccompanied minor and several "official" looking people were gathered 'round. It was a while before someone noticed that someone was sitting where no one was sitting before . . . me. I assume they thought I was somehow associated with the unaccompanied minor and they weren't terribly concerned. But when they discovered my boarding pass hadn't been "beeped" at the gateway, everything changed. Actually, I could have been stuffing my pockets with mini-bottles from the galley since most of the crew and the gate agent were back beyond the bulkhead. But I was just happy they didn't walk me back off the plane.

Nothing to do with United itself. It was actually concern over a client that was causing the problems.
Last edited by kgaiflyer on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
richiemo
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:03 pm

So what if they do??? Remember Dr Spock's old adage; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I get infuriated when my flight is delayed cause of delays in the boarding process. It happens all the time. The plane is the there, the boarding begins on-time and all of a sudden, departure time comes and goes cause of late boarders etc. I purchased a ticket for a plane to leave at a certain time. I plan around it. And to inconvenience 150 people so you can accommodate a handful is wrong. Look, I know some gate agents can do the standbys quickly and not delay departure time. I'm just saying, way too many of my flights are delayed due to the entire boarding process being a cluster. The very fact of boarding the elite status members first, who take forever to sit down in the first few rows, was the beginning of the end. Now we are complaining about the inconvenience of a handful of people who booked a flight for another time. Enough already!!!
 
Flighty
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:07 pm

If a flight is already late, boarding standbys makes no difference - maybe 2 minutes. If those 2 minutes pushes a flight from on-time to late, gate agents MIGHT get dinged, but again, it is only a matter of a couple of minutes to board say 10 standby passengers.

A problem I ran into, however, is gate agents failing to hold a flight for say 12 connecting passengers - most of them REVENUE - because it would delay a flight by 3-4 minutes. That not only ruined my weekend plans (as a young employee, no problem) but a bunch of revenue passengers' plans too. That ain't right. All to get their stats up. But you can't blame employees, you blame the system that is forcing their actions.
 
AST1Driver
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:30 pm

You have to remember, the departure time for you flight is "PUSHBACK time" not "close the gatehouse door time." Your boarding pass tells you how early before that time you need to be a the gate or you forfeit your seat. The gatehouse door is closed ten minutes before departure time to finish the boarding process, check last minute bags and compile weight and balance reports. Does this mean passengers get left behind? Sometimes, but it is not as often as it is being made out. It happens at all airlines. It is not a good feeling to see passengers in the gatehouse windows knowing they just missed their flight. In the old days each airline gate crew was responsible for reporting the out times for each flight. You had ability to hold flights at the gate for a few minutes after departure time, especially on the last flight of the day, and then fudge the numbers to still show out on time. (Not that I have ever done this.) Everything is automated now. ACARS tracks every aspect of the flight and the government and other groups use those times to rank each airline. And like it or not on-time departures is one of the highest looked at stats.
Last edited by AST1Driver on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:32 pm

I call this "fake news" lol
I've see AA pilots march up the jet bridge to make sure all seats were full and standbys were not left behind. It's amazing how people like to just point out negative things without pointing out how amazing some at that same company can be. Kudos to the pilots (4 times in my travels) that I've seen confirm that no one was left behind and even threatened the agent to delay the flight if a family was not put on board and we still left on time.
Fake news, nothing to see here lol
 
alfa164
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:48 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
I call this "fake news" lol
I've see AA pilots march up the jet bridge to make sure all seats were full and standbys were not left behind. It's amazing how people like to just point out negative things without pointing out how amazing some at that same company can be. Kudos to the pilots (4 times in my travels) that I've seen confirm that no one was left behind and even threatened the agent to delay the flight if a family was not put on board and we still left on time.
Fake news, nothing to see here lol

I think you (like another rookie... but he's in the WH :roll: ) are using the "fake news" excuse too flippantly. Actually, you just confirmed it isn't "fake news"; the situations you describe show that it does happen at the gate, and the pilots - to their credit - make an effort to correct it.

In the end, you are verifying what the pilots are saying.
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737max8
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:38 pm

I'll just say this...standby pax (both revenue and non-rev) are left behind with empty seats all the time. Some agents just don't do a good job prioritizing their work. And both groups matter. You have to take care of both your external and internal passengers.

Luckily my airline is really good about clearing standbys as early as they can, and will wait all the way until 5 mins or less to get everyone on.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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AAAL
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:39 am

This is a fight between legacy AA pilots and the new management. Prior to the merger, it was pretty common for LAA pilots to get involved with late pax or standby pax. However, with the new focus on dependability pilots are having trouble with this new direction. I have experienced being left behind and it's no fun. It seems most of the trouble comes when passenger have minimum connecting times. There is no clear plan with those connecting passenger often leading to a last minute scramble. I have to give AA credit though because they are improving in this area. I have not been left behind in a long time.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:00 am

alfa164 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
I call this "fake news" lol
I've see AA pilots march up the jet bridge to make sure all seats were full and standbys were not left behind. It's amazing how people like to just point out negative things without pointing out how amazing some at that same company can be. Kudos to the pilots (4 times in my travels) that I've seen confirm that no one was left behind and even threatened the agent to delay the flight if a family was not put on board and we still left on time.
Fake news, nothing to see here lol

I think you (like another rookie... but he's in the WH :roll: ) are using the "fake news" excuse too flippantly. Actually, you just confirmed it isn't "fake news"; the situations you describe show that it does happen at the gate, and the pilots - to their credit - make an effort to correct it.

In the end, you are verifying what the pilots are saying.


The pilots are complaining by pointing out something that existed and was actually worst before this year and has been happening for a very long time hence "fake news." As far as that clown leading the circus in the WH that's something else lol but from my experience, standby passengers have been left behind and will continue to be left behind unless some things change, one being connection times but then, people will complain the times are too long. There has to be a balance and I don't see how that balance will happen. People miss flights for a myriad of valid and ridiculous reasons and I doubt all of them can or will ever be addressed. People will get left behind once the timer says flight needs to leave.
As far as agents holding flights as said by someone above. As far as I know from when I worked as in agent in college for Alaska, we had no control over deciding to hold a flight or not no matter what the reasons were. You closed the flight and printed the paperwork, that was it. Only operations could re-open a flight or authorize agents to hold it for whatever reason. And just like agents purposely leaving standby passengers behind when there are seats, there will always be a group of employees in most industries who suck at their job but not enough to get them fired. Enough to ruin lives or inconvenience them to varying degrees though.

I just find it ridiculous that they want to point out something that's been an issue for so long but now that you are fighting management, it's an issue...
Unless this has been brought up by them before and I am unaware of it then hey more power to them for keeping this issue in the forefront, if not then they need to find something new
 
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ssteve
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:55 am

wn676 wrote:
subramak1 wrote:

Sorry , was not clear. I was in paid F

Subu


So if you weren't standby, how is this relevant to the discussion?


There's another thread on here of people just complaining that airlines no longer wait for connecting passengers.

My 2 cents: if you are connecting from mainline to a regional, the regional gate agents simply don't care, if I'm allowed to extrapolate Air Wisconsin at IAD to every regional CSA. ;)

Also, paid domestic first class isn't worth it. Further evidence.
 
silentbob
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:45 am

It's pretty common. I've had pilots tell agents to go back inside and bring people out on flights that I was working and still left on time. As a passenger, I've had them close the doors and push back with empty seats and never call for a single non-rev. I can't speak to the figures mentioned but I can anecdotally verify that the practice is real and not uncommon. Agents aren't disciplined for leaving people behind, but it does happen if their airplane is late off the gate.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:47 am

Given how insanely full planes are these days its already almost impossible to get reboked. IF they are leaving standbys behind, thats really gonna stink.

On AA not that long ago my flight got cancelled they actually wanted to rebook me FOUR days later, you heard that right FOUR days later. I bought a ticket on jetblue at the airport and flew out the same day. When flights are all full its so hard to rebook already, leaving standbys behind seems bad. Four days is an unacceptable amount of time, i wasnt on some odd route either. AA did refund my money but of course my walk up jetblue fare was more.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:23 am

OB1504 wrote:
AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.


I really don't get the fascination the DOT has with D0. Does anyone really cares if you leave the gate three minutes late in order to get some standbys on but still arrive ten minutes early? There needs to be a more useful metric than that.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:53 am

toltommy wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
Sorry, was not clear. I was in paid F


Then since you arrived at the gate 10 minutes prior to departure, fare class is not relevant. You had a responsibility to be at gate 15 minutes prior to arrival. It's in the Contract of Carriage:

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-servic ... sp#checkin

Arrival at Gate
You must be at the gate and ready to board the aircraft:

15 minutes prior to scheduled departure for flights departing from points -within- the U.S., Puerto Rico, and Virgin Islands
30 minutes prior to scheduled departure for flights departing from points -outside- the U.S., Puerto Rico, and Virgin Islands, i.e., Canada, Mexico, Europe, Asia, Central/South America, Caribbean, Bahamas, Bermuda


Because sometimes you are in ORD and your inbound flight was late and it parked two concourses away.

Many of these situations cannot be avoided...it's just part of being a non-Rev.

The one that gets me is when the Load Planner doesn't allow the non-revs to board until the very last minute and then the gate agents refuse to process the non-revs because they "don't have time" to get the door closed. So airplanes often leave 5 minutes early with 1,000+ pounds of available weight.

There is too much emphasis on D-0 when it is actually A-0 that matters. Delta and Alaska for sure allow their Captains to hold for passengers if conditions are such that they can still make A-0 with a departure delay (i.e. Strong tailwinds) The weakness in the system is that the Captain is often not even aware that there is an issue until the very last minute-if at all, when options are limited.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:56 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
Load Planner doesn't allow the non-revs to board until the very last minute and then the gate agents refuse to process the non-revs because they "don't have time" to get the door closed. So airplanes often leave 5 minutes early with 1,000+ pounds of available weight.

There is too much emphasis on D-0 when it is actually A-0 that matters. Delta and Alaska for sure allow their Captains to hold for passengers if conditions are such that they can still make A-0 with a departure delay (i.e. Strong tailwinds) The weakness in the system is that the Captain is often not even aware that there is an issue until the very last minute-if at all, when options are limited.


At UA if the captain wants to take the delay to get all the standbys on all he/she has to do is call station operations and say they want the standbys on board. At that point it is settled you board the standbys and take the delay after all it is the captains aircraft and you can't force them to leave the gate. A captain will not suffer the same consequences as a gate agent, captains can take delays gate agents cannot.

As far as load planners holding non-revs yes that happens a lot especially when a flight is weight restricted. There are times when the dispatcher or the captain has options that can help out the load planner then their are times when you have no options because the flight is bumping up against either its MZFW or MTOG. If you are 1,000 pounds away from either of those numbers load planners will hold that weight especially out of a hub. During a critical weight restriction the most important number the load planner needs when they are facing MZFW or MTOG is the final numbers from the ramp. If the ramp goes over their expected bags which happens a lot at hubs then the load planner knows they have a cushion of 1,000 pounds. There is also jump-seaters. I don't know about AA but at UA jump-seaters are not included in the OEW only the crew that is actually working the flight. So there are many times when pilots and flight attendants are listed as non-revs but once they realize they may not be getting on as a non-rev they change their status to jump-seater and at UA jump-seaters can not be held off the flight if a jump-seat is available. So there are a lot of different reasons why load planner hold 1,000 pounds because the last thing a load planner wants is an overweight aircraft and the only option available is for the gate agent to go onboard and pull a customer off the flight.
 
seatback
Posts: 616
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:17 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
seatback wrote:
This happened to me a few months ago on United...I, along with six others were revenue paxs onnecting in Chicago. The plane was there, but not an employee in sight. The door closed a good 13 minutes before schedule, published departure. Awful. I won't fly UA through ORD again.

Flights close 15 minutes prior to departure as printed on your boarding pass.


This cause for the delay for all six of us was because of a United issue (their fault). They knew six passengers were going to misconnect. Its also interesting that I waited until after the gate pulled back to talk to the gate agent but one showed up. They must close up the plane and not come back up to the terminal because they know they'll have angry people standing at the podium. Awful customer service. Oddly enough, the agents at the help desk were putting the misconnects on an AA flight.

And btw, closing up a plane 15 minutes before departure, especially at ORD is ridiculous.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3776
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:56 pm

Mir wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
AA places a very heavy emphasis on D0, though to be fair I wouldn't have a job without it.

I really don't get the fascination the DOT has with D0. Does anyone really cares if you leave the gate three minutes late in order to get some standbys on but still arrive ten minutes early? There needs to be a more useful metric than that.

I am not sure the DOT really does have a fascination with D0, but it shows up in their statistics... those statistics get published... and the airline nabobs believe the public will base their choices on these statistics.

Arrival time would be a much better view; that is really all passengers care about.


seatback wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
seatback wrote:
This happened to me a few months ago on United...I, along with six others were revenue paxs onnecting in Chicago. The plane was there, but not an employee in sight. The door closed a good 13 minutes before schedule, published departure. Awful. I won't fly UA through ORD again.
Flights close 15 minutes prior to departure as printed on your boarding pass.

This cause for the delay for all six of us was because of a United issue (their fault). They knew six passengers were going to misconnect. Its also interesting that I waited until after the gate pulled back to talk to the gate agent but one showed up. They must close up the plane and not come back up to the terminal because they know they'll have angry people standing at the podium. Awful customer service. Oddly enough, the agents at the help desk were putting the misconnects on an AA flight.
And btw, closing up a plane 15 minutes before departure, especially at ORD is ridiculous.


I feel your pain. I was coming off a UA flight from Lima at IAH - it was delayed, because UA can't seem to get the plane cleaned in time at LIM - and missed my flight onward. Despite the fact that the crew on my LIM flight assured us that gates were being notified that we would be on our way, the agents didn't care.

I missed an important business meeting; it had to be postponed because of an overzealous gate agent.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
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Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
How many of those 20K standbys were revenue passengers, and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad? AA and AA Eagle operated about 150K flights last month, right?



PITflights wrote:
This is a campaign of the pilot union to kill AA - it's amazing how immature this group is and the games they play


The bs talking points have gone out, and the management and marketing interns have been dispatched. remember, it's all a giant conspiracy against poor helpless management by the evil workers that try to destroy every company they are part of. And in the next political elections these same people that bash unions are going to complain that their pay is not high enough.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 1302
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:12 pm

As far as the standby list that the pilots referred to goes, there may indeed be a lot of people (non-revs) on the list that don't show up at the gate. At AA, we used to have to check-in at the airport, and standby check-in was restricted to 4 hours before departure. Now we can do it at home on the internet/intranet 24 hours out, and that includes our other family members and buddies. Before, you knew that all the non-revs were at the airport. You can also list for multiple flights; not correct, but I know it's done (don't get caught!).
Secondly, we had quite the internal discussion at HDQ back years ago about whether to place a cleared standby on the downline connecting flight list or not. Before, you didn't get on the connecting flight list until you arrived at the connecting airport and checked-in. The idea that the connecting gate might be trying to process standbys that hadn't arrived yet did get kicked around, but it was decided to go for it anyway. (That's why you may hear names called and nobody comes up...they may be late arrivals, misconnects, dropping quarters in the slots at RNO, LAS, didn't arrive in time to park the car, etc. Or just flaked out.)
Then, there is the decision that has to be made at departure time as to whether you can run a person down the jetbridge under the wire, but (worse nowadays) they may not find a place to stow their carry-ons. (The advent of checked bag fees has made this worse.) This can make you have a late departure, as the door can't be closed until all are seated, bags stowed and bins closed. Bags may have to be taken off and checked, often for the next flight (ugh). And until the door is closed, the crew can't release the brakes, which is recorded in ACARS as the departure time. Tinker to Evers to Chance, the gate agent gets boomed for a departure delay.

So the pilots are part right, but it may not be up to the 20,000 in the report they used.

As to confirmed passengers missing the closing, yes, there are some agents who may jump the gun. They may go on report after one more charged delay, or, yes, they don't care. But, there are times where you have to make an executive decision as to how long to wait. They could be late arrivals and Grandma back in row 33 isn't going to get across from the other concourse or terminal, but a sprinter might make it on a mad dash; you just don't know. International arriving passengers may actually get in on time, but get stuck in customs. There are other examples. At some point, because of other demands, the agent has to start clearing the last upgrade requests in those no-show seats, then move on with oversales and standbys in those freed-up seats.

And yes, many agents close the door behind themselves going down the jetway to close up the flight, and then go down the back stairs to avoid seeing any stranded confirmed passengers, avoiding the conflicts. (In my years as an agent noticing what's going on at neighboring gates with other airlines, I did observe that some of them did regularly make the one-way trip down the jetbridge, never to be seen again. I'm not saying names out of respect and fairness as it may not be current today.) A diligent agent comes back up to help (after the plane is gone), and potentially rolls standbys over to the next flight. They may first have to meet the next flight that has been waiting for the gate before they come back up.

As to a flight crew telling you the gates will be notified and flights held, they aren't part of the gate operation and don't know the story of the hour. They may know that an entire off-schedule complex is being held, so their odds of giving you hope is better. They certainly can't grease the wheels in Customs.

And no, I do not miss being an agent! I highly recommend retirement.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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AEROFAN
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:26 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
How many of those 20K standbys were revenue passengers, and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad? AA and AA Eagle operated about 150K flights last month, right?


English must not be your first language coz your "and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad?" makes no sense to me.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:29 pm

Wingtips56 wrote:
As far as the standby list that the pilots referred to goes, there may indeed be a lot of people (non-revs) on the list that don't show up at the gate. At AA, we used to have to check-in at the airport, and standby check-in was restricted to 4 hours before departure. Now we can do it at home on the internet/intranet 24 hours out, and that includes our other family members and buddies. Before, you knew that all the non-revs were at the airport. You can also list for multiple flights; not correct, but I know it's done (don't get caught!).
Secondly, we had quite the internal discussion at HDQ back years ago about whether to place a cleared standby on the downline connecting flight list or not. Before, you didn't get on the connecting flight list until you arrived at the connecting airport and checked-in. The idea that the connecting gate might be trying to process standbys that hadn't arrived yet did get kicked around, but it was decided to go for it anyway. (That's why you may hear names called and nobody comes up...they may be late arrivals, misconnects, dropping quarters in the slots at RNO, LAS, didn't arrive in time to park the car, etc. Or just flaked out.)
Then, there is the decision that has to be made at departure time as to whether you can run a person down the jetbridge under the wire, but (worse nowadays) they may not find a place to stow their carry-ons. (The advent of checked bag fees has made this worse.) This can make you have a late departure, as the door can't be closed until all are seated, bags stowed and bins closed. Bags may have to be taken off and checked, often for the next flight (ugh). And until the door is closed, the crew can't release the brakes, which is recorded in ACARS as the departure time. Tinker to Evers to Chance, the gate agent gets boomed for a departure delay.

So the pilots are part right, but it may not be up to the 20,000 in the report they used.

As to confirmed passengers missing the closing, yes, there are some agents who may jump the gun. They may go on report after one more charged delay, or, yes, they don't care. But, there are times where you have to make an executive decision as to how long to wait. They could be late arrivals and Grandma back in row 33 isn't going to get across from the other concourse or terminal, but a sprinter might make it on a mad dash; you just don't know. International arriving passengers may actually get in on time, but get stuck in customs. There are other examples. At some point, because of other demands, the agent has to start clearing the last upgrade requests in those no-show seats, then move on with oversales and standbys in those freed-up seats.

And yes, many agents close the door behind themselves going down the jetway to close up the flight, and then go down the back stairs to avoid seeing any stranded confirmed passengers, avoiding the conflicts. (In my years as an agent noticing what's going on at neighboring gates with other airlines, I did observe that some of them did regularly make the one-way trip down the jetbridge, never to be seen again. I'm not saying names out of respect and fairness as it may not be current today.) A diligent agent comes back up to help (after the plane is gone), and potentially rolls standbys over to the next flight. They may first have to meet the next flight that has been waiting for the gate before they come back up.

As to a flight crew telling you the gates will be notified and flights held, they aren't part of the gate operation and don't know the story of the hour. They may know that an entire off-schedule complex is being held, so their odds of giving you hope is better. They certainly can't grease the wheels in Customs.

And no, I do not miss being an agent! I highly recommend retirement.


Very informative. Thank you.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:33 pm

Well I can speak from experience that Delta will close the door 5+ minutes early if all their pax are on board. I can't tell you how many clueless people wait until the very last minute to board and that seriously complicates the agents job. If you hold a ticket and your not onboard within 5 minutes of departure it's very likely the agent will start boarding standbys and your seat may be one of them if you lollygaging around the terminal. I won't say I never seen the agent close the door without boarding the non revs or standbys, but at least where I worked that would have been very rare.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:45 am

I'm not going to throw out the pilot's allegations without knowing the whole story, but their credibility does take a hit when they've been bitter over their signing of a bad contract.
 
crAAzy
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:02 am

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:06 am

Not only standby passengers but they are closing flights earlier than they have in the past and leaving behind ticketed passengers with tight connections.

Jan 31st I arrived on and MKE-ORD flight 25 minutes before my scheduled departure, sat just off the gate for 15 minutes waiting for the aircraft at our arrival gate to depart, ran down 5 gates to arrive 6 minutes before the departure time according to the clock on the monitor behind the gate. The gate agent barely gave me the time of day, told me the flight was closed, my First Class seat had been given away and I could go to the rebooking station behind me so they could try to book me on the United flight that left in 40 minutes.

AA rebooking agent was very friendly and rebooked me on the United flight. As I ran to United terminal, I looked over at my gate and my AA flight was still sitting there 8 minutes after the departure time. I arrived in the United terminal to an overhead announcement telling me to report to my gate where I was welcomed by friendly smiling UA staffers telling me they were holding the flight just for me, gave me a seat with extra legroom and that they were hoping I liked their service as a loyal AA EXP flyer.

It was then that I realized how much the time have changed.
1. Never did I expect that AA's last ORD-MIA flight would leave before 7pm nor expect that United would have later flights on ORD-MIA than AA.
2. I'm also not accustomed to AA closing it's last flights of the night earlier than the scheduled departure times, stranding ticketed passengers.
3. Who would have thought UA employees would go out of their way to may a loyal AA EXP flyer feel more welcome on their UA flight, after missing his AA flight?
 
Gingersnap
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Pilots: AA leaving behind standby passengers to improve on-time departure

Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:52 am

AEROFAN wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
How many of those 20K standbys were revenue passengers, and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad? AA and AA Eagle operated about 150K flights last month, right?


English must not be your first language coz your "and how many were pilots or other employees who are looking for a way to make management look bad?" makes no sense to me.


Not to cause offence as you did, but I guess English isn't your first language either because as a native English speaker, it makes perfect sense to me.
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