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AerolineasAR343
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Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:39 am

One of Brazil's top airlines, Gol, has agreed to pay $1.3m (£1m) to an indigenous tribe in compensation for the damage caused by a 2006 plane crash.

A Gol aircraft on a commercial flight collided with a private jet in mid-air in September 2006, in the skies above the Caiapó indigenous reserve.

The Caiapó tribe refused to go back to the area where the debris fell.

They say it is now polluted and cursed with the presence of the dead.

Their dwellings and a health centre set up by Brazil's indigenous agency, Funai, had to be rebuilt elsewhere in the reserve, a Caiapó chief told Globo television.

Head-on collision

The two planes were travelling in opposite directions when they collided over an area of the Amazon forest in the state of Mato Grosso.

The Embraer Legacy 600 private jet, which was travelling to the United States, managed to fly to a nearby airport and land safely.

But the Gol Boeing 737-8EH aircraft crashed in the middle of the reserve, killing all 154 people onboard.

The Caiapó tribe is led by Chief Raoni, who has campaigned for indigenous rights in Brazil

A Brazilian government inquiry concluded that there had been errors both by the two American pilots on the Legacy jet and air traffic control in Brazil.

Two years ago, tribe leaders sought help from Funai to ask for compensation, Globo TV reported.

The airline and tribe leaders came to an out-of-court agreement, which was signed by the Caiapó at a ceremony earlier this month.

The Caiapó chief is Raoni Metuktire, who became famous when he travelled around the world with British rock star Sting in the late 1980s to highlight the destruction of the Amazon rainforest.

He campaigned for the demarcation of indigenous lands, threatened by hydroelectric dams, illegal mining and the expansion of soya plantations.

His foundation will manage the compensation money, under the watch of Funai and Brazil's Attorney General's Office.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39413074
 
C010T3
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:46 am

Extortion at its best.
 
kabq737
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:53 am

Seems pretty fair to me.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:58 am

C010T3 wrote:
Extortion at its best.


Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
C010T3
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:06 am

BobPatterson wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
Extortion at its best.


Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.


Because the story about "pain and suffering" is all a sham. Gol agreed to pay in order to avoid a PR nightmare.
 
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:08 am

C010T3 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
Extortion at its best.


Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.


Because the story about "pain and suffering" is all a sham. Gol agreed to pay in order to avoid a PR nightmare.


So I'm guessing that if a plane crashed in your home and place of worship you would just do nothing?
 
ChristopherS
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:17 am

Why is Gol paying? Both the NTSB and the Brazilian investigators agreed (to some extent) that there should have been far more blame put on the (government owned) ATC and Embraer pilots.
319, 320, 738, MD80
 
kabq737
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:33 am

ChristopherS wrote:
Why is Gol paying? Both the NTSB and the Brazilian investigators agreed (to some extent) that there should have been far more blame put on the (government owned) ATC and Embraer pilots.

That's an interesting question. Above I was stating that I thought it was fair that the tribe receive compensation. I would be curious to see how the tribe tied GOL completely to the damages done. Maybe just because it was a GOL aircraft that did the actual damage?
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rg787
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:35 am

I feel Gol is on the upside on this. R$ 4M is not that much money for the company, and it not only avoided a PR nightmare but also solved their problems with little effort.

Also, it is worth noting that with this agreement, Gol will not need to rescue the wreckage anymore, as demanded by the tribe. This alone could cost north of a million reais.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:48 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.


Simple Pimple.

It is a settlement when educated, city-dwelling types do it.

It is extortion when illiterate, jungle-dwelling natives do it.

Hope that explained it.
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C010T3
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:48 am

AerolineasAR343 wrote:
So I'm guessing that if a plane crashed in your home and place of worship you would just do nothing?


No, I will declare a territory roughly the size of San Mateo County to be haunted and will sue the one responsible for it.
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:33 am

Truth be told, I think that Embraer and Honeywell should have borne more responsibility for the accident. After all, the transponder system in the Embraer Legacy and ERJ has a documented history of failure that is not clearly annunciated. In the Airbus aircraft that I fly, a transponder failure is annunciated clearly, whereas, on the aircraft in question, the failure of the transponder and related TCAS was a direct contributor to this accident. As far as I know, Honeywell and Embraer never had any really legal culpability. A lawsuit was filed in the U.S., but the case was dismissed due to the judge in question determining that the Brazillian court system would be a more appropriate venue for litigation. I don't know that anything ever came of that. I don't know a whole lot about the Brazilian court system, but I don't believe that Brazil is as litigious as the United States and thus I doubt that the case will develop to the same extent. Again....I could be completely wrong and if I am, please, correct me.
My other car is an A320-200
 
C010T3
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:41 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Simple Pimple.

It is a settlement when educated, city-dwelling types do it.

It is extortion when illiterate, jungle-dwelling natives do it.

Hope that explained it.


Surely the NGOs behind the whole charade agree with you.
 
Flaps
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:52 am

C010T3 wrote:
Extortion at its best.


Your arrogance is quite revealing of your ignorance of how native populations view their world. Just because they have a different world view than yours does not make them inferior to you nor does it reduce the value and importance of those natives as people and as cultures. So called modern society could learn a great deal from these people.

Perhaps GOL has clearer insight into the native world view and that is why they were the ones to pay out. The Brazilian government would be implying that they were at fault by paying which opens up another can of worms. Honeywell would never pay and tie it up in court forever. Seems to me that GOL is the only party that sees the issue in its totality. A good PR move for them at minimal expense. It likely would cost them considerably more to remove the wreckage and clean up the sight than the amount of the settlement.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:22 am

Yeah GOL shouldn't be paying this, should be whoever was operated that Legacy.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:28 am

BawliBooch wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.


Simple Pimple.

It is a settlement when educated, city-dwelling types do it.

It is extortion when illiterate, jungle-dwelling natives do it.

Hope that explained it.


You have defined the two sides to the the settlement (although I don't know how accurate it is to use "illiterate" in this case).

Point is, C010T3 uses terms such as extortion and sham without (I'm guessing here) really knowing anything about the parties, particularly the native Amazonian group and their traditions, beliefs and customs.

As a matter of curiosity, I'd be interested in learning who proposed the matter of "reparations", and what pressure or incentive was placed on Gol to be the one to do the paying. I haven't been able to find articles online discussing such points, or even who was declared liable for the accident.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
steve6666
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:44 am

A320FlyGuy wrote:
I don't know a whole lot about the Brazilian court system, but I don't believe that Brazil is as litigious as the United States and thus I doubt that the case will develop to the same extent. Again....I could be completely wrong and if I am, please, correct me.


In some very important aspects, eg, employment law, Brazil is significantly more litigious than the US and Brazilian employment law has what most neutral observers would perceive as some significant biases in favour of the employee. As a result, you reasonably often get businesses whose entire value is wiped out by its contingent labour claims, and an entire industry exists to bring and defend/settle such cases and needless to say, Brazilian courts progress very slowly. I would imagine a similar position would be the case here, with the plaintiffs and their advisers no doubt looking at the size of the fine imposed (ironically very quickly) by the Brazilian government on Samarco Mineracao when their tailings dam broke a couple of years ago and thinking there is something in it for them. The value of the settlement is indeed cheap for GOL, but it's an indictment that the settlement is cheaper than defending what would seem to be spurious litigation.

As for C010T3, he does at least come from Brazil, so I'd be inclined to believe he probably has more insight into this case than most.
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Byron1976
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:59 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Yeah GOL shouldn't be paying this, should be whoever was operated that Legacy.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


And the brazilian ATC too..
 
bennett123
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:07 pm

Perhaps GOL should contact these other parties and put in a claim.
 
incitatus
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:50 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Yeah GOL shouldn't be paying this, should be whoever was operated that Legacy.


It is a matter of going after a party that has money to pay and is easy to sue.

Flaps wrote:
Your arrogance is quite revealing of your ignorance of how native populations view their world.


Or is this a case of how a Brazilian law firm sees an opportunity to make easy money? The Caiapos claim that the accident "damaged" an area of 500 square miles. It sounds spurious to me. I would compensate the tribe by allocating to the reserve a neighboring equivalent area and making the "damaged" 500 square mile a people-free reserve - no settlers, no farmers, no logging, no visitors, no Natives.
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sw733
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:56 pm

C010T3 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
Extortion at its best.


Please explain how a negotiated settlement is extortion. Try using facts, if possible.

Thanks.


Because the story about "pain and suffering" is all a sham. Gol agreed to pay in order to avoid a PR nightmare.


Aren't you a sensitive, open-minded person...god forbid another culture has different views than yours.
 
C010T3
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:19 am

So, everybody now thinks that it's completely normal that an Indian tribe declares 20% of a reservation the size of Palastine to be spoiled and haunted.
Last time the tribe took a TV network to the crash site, they took 3 days to reach it. It's more than probable that most of the ca. 1300 Indians in that reservation would have never gone near the site in their lifetime, but something is definitely spiritually tainted.
https://terrasindigenas.org.br/en/terras-indigenas/3641

Let's applaud the NGO that accepted the settlement on behalf of the Indians:
http://www.institutoraoni.com.br/

Flaps wrote:
Your arrogance is quite revealing of your ignorance of how native populations view their world. Just because they have a different world view than yours does not make them inferior to you nor does it reduce the value and importance of those natives as people and as cultures. So called modern society could learn a great deal from these people.


Who called them inferior? I think your projecting things...
Are you now an expert in indigenous people and how they see the world?
Let's rewind to one those cases in which a tribe was spoiling their own reservation by collaborating with illegal mining activity in their reservation. Surprise, surprise, the "Indian nation" is the same:

http://g1.globo.com/pa/para/noticia/201 ... no-pa.html

sw733 wrote:
Aren't you a sensitive, open-minded person...god forbid another culture has different views than yours.


Calling bullshit on something now is seen as closed-mindedness and lack of sensitivity?
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:37 am

C010T3 wrote:
So, everybody now thinks that it's completely normal that an Indian tribe declares 20% of a reservation the size of Palastine to be spoiled and haunted.
Last time the tribe took a TV network to the crash site, they took 3 days to reach it. It's more than probable that most of the ca. 1300 Indians in that reservation would have never gone near the site in their lifetime, but something is definitely spiritually tainted.
https://terrasindigenas.org.br/en/terras-indigenas/3641

Let's applaud the NGO that accepted the settlement on behalf of the Indians:
http://www.institutoraoni.com.br/


Thank you for posting the links that provide some insights into what is happening in that area. It might be good to try to keep separate (difficult, I admit) the two issues of:

1. Reparations in the case of the aircraft accident, and

2. The exploitation of (and in cooperation with) the native peoples and the environmental destruction there.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brazil tribe gets compensation for plane crash over Amazon forest (GOL 1907)

Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:41 am

Let us not forget the disturbing history of many countries as to pre-colonial persons, it is probably a face saving act and good PR for Gol.

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