seatback
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Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:19 pm

There seems to be some good things happening at CVG. Much has been reported, but some hasn't been discussed. I thought it deserved its own thread.

1. WN begins MDW and BWI in June. Future additions could include: PHX, TPA, FLL, MCO, DEN, OAK, LAS, and BOS. I know there's a healthy amount of ULCC on many of those routes, but with their less than daily and/or willingness to quickly exit a market, I don't see why WN would be diswayed from entering.
2. AA phases out ERJ's to DFW beginning this summer and replaces with E170s and two MD80s. Nice to see mainline back. How long will it last?
3. UA begins mainline service to SFO.
4. Delta reduces flights but adds capacity with more mainline (e.g. DEN & MSP)
5. G4 begins DEN. Interesting add for them since DEN isn't a focus city.
6. F9 begins LGA. It will be interesting to see how well they do on this one.
7. Will WOW or Norwegian consider CVG? If PIT can land WOW, why not CVG?
8. Any chance for a DL flight to AMS? AA flights to PHX & LAX?
 
Shields
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:35 pm

My understanding is that DL did not reduce flights to DEN but rather upgraded the flight from CR9 to 717. It will be interesting to see whether DL's acquisition of the C-Series helps (re)open any routes from CVG (e.g., SAN; year-round SEA; PHX). At the same time, I wonder whether how much longer CVG will retain 1/2X service to spokes like MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL. MKE--just one CRJ/day--seems especially vulnerable.
 
seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:54 pm

Shields wrote:
My understanding is that DL did not reduce flights to DEN but rather upgraded the flight from CR9 to 717. It will be interesting to see whether DL's acquisition of the C-Series helps (re)open any routes from CVG (e.g., SAN; year-round SEA; PHX). At the same time, I wonder whether how much longer CVG will retain 1/2X service to spokes like MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL. MKE--just one CRJ/day--seems especially vulnerable.


I wonder if they haven't eliminated those flights/routes yet, why would they? Unless the answer is that with the CRJ pull down, so do these markets. Although, I think CVG has found its unique nitch and lives in a world caught between a hub and focus city.
 
flyingfromcvg
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:08 pm

CVG will never be scheduled like a hub again by DL as DTW is way too close. But with the nice selection of directs it still enjoys and the continued presence of a SkyClub, those flights from the other midwestern business markets can be timed to serve two purposes. If you bring them in early and send their return out late you can make daytrip-friendly flights that also arrive in time to catch connections. I'm sure the days of serving all the little midwest towns are gone, but you can use CVG as an alternative to connecting in a larger airport to other medium-sized midwest markets (BNA, STL, MKE, MCI, RCH, RDU) while also subsidizing routes that may not have the loads on their own with connecting traffic.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:13 pm

Shields wrote:
My understanding is that DL did not reduce flights to DEN but rather upgraded the flight from CR9 to 717. It will be interesting to see whether DL's acquisition of the C-Series helps (re)open any routes from CVG (e.g., SAN; year-round SEA; PHX). At the same time, I wonder whether how much longer CVG will retain 1/2X service to spokes like MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL. MKE--just one CRJ/day--seems especially vulnerable.


BNA is scheduled to go down to 1 a day starting in May. So like you said it will be interesting to see what happens as they phase some RJs out
 
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flymco753
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:18 pm

seatback wrote:
There seems to be some good things happening at CVG. Much has been reported, but some hasn't been discussed. I thought it deserved its own thread.

1. WN begins MDW and BWI in June. Future additions could include: PHX, TPA, FLL, MCO, DEN, OAK, LAS, and BOS. I know there's a healthy amount of ULCC on many of those routes, but with their less than daily and/or willingness to quickly exit a market, I don't see why WN would be diswayed from entering.
Most CVG-Florida routes already have enough competition, I'm not sure at this time WN would want to battle DL and F9 for a full time spot, maybe winter seasonal at best.

seatback wrote:
7. Will WOW or Norwegian consider CVG? If PIT can land WOW, why not CVG?
WOW is interesting, if CVG puts a good enough story and financial plan together it could work at 4x weekly, but CVG is competing with CLE, CMH, and IND since these airports have indicated competitive offerings for TATL. I don't think if WW added DTW it would be a negative factor.

seatback wrote:
8. Any chance for a DL flight to AMS?
I could see LHR way before AMS because CDG offers a lot of the same connections via AF.
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AaronPGH
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 pm

I would think CVG has a better shot at WOW than CMH or CLE, mainly because of geography. WOW is one of those airlines that seems to reach beyond a typical city's catchment area. PIT's service is reportedly drawing heavily from CLE and CMH. It would make sense to place the next second-tier city further out, right? It could pull from IND, SDF, LEX, CMH, etc
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:51 pm

How much of a battle is it really with F9? Their less than daily flights and their lack of commitment to routes makes me believe that if WN wanted to come in and essentially push them out, they could.

Any chance for a DL flight to AMS?[/quote] I could see LHR way before AMS because CDG offers a lot of the same connections via AF.[/quote]
LHR would be great, with Virgin operating...it makes sense especially from CVG and markets like RDU.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:59 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Shields wrote:
My understanding is that DL did not reduce flights to DEN but rather upgraded the flight from CR9 to 717. It will be interesting to see whether DL's acquisition of the C-Series helps (re)open any routes from CVG (e.g., SAN; year-round SEA; PHX). At the same time, I wonder whether how much longer CVG will retain 1/2X service to spokes like MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL. MKE--just one CRJ/day--seems especially vulnerable.


BNA is scheduled to go down to 1 a day starting in May. So like you said it will be interesting to see what happens as they phase some RJs out


What phasing out of RJs? Only a handful are being parked this year, and they're all mostly ATL flying, are they not.
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seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:24 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Shields wrote:
My understanding is that DL did not reduce flights to DEN but rather upgraded the flight from CR9 to 717. It will be interesting to see whether DL's acquisition of the C-Series helps (re)open any routes from CVG (e.g., SAN; year-round SEA; PHX). At the same time, I wonder whether how much longer CVG will retain 1/2X service to spokes like MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL. MKE--just one CRJ/day--seems especially vulnerable.


BNA is scheduled to go down to 1 a day starting in May. So like you said it will be interesting to see what happens as they phase some RJs out


What phasing out of RJs? Only a handful are being parked this year, and they're all mostly ATL flying, are they not.


Delta has previously stated that it is phasing out 50 seaters in the coming years. If you look at CVG, where 90 percent is CRJs, you are slowly seeing more mainline, but not the elimination of entire markets (thankfully).
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:27 pm

seatback wrote:
How much of a battle is it really with F9? Their less than daily flights and their lack of commitment to routes makes me believe that if WN wanted to come in and essentially push them out, they could.

Any chance for a DL flight to AMS?
I could see LHR way before AMS because CDG offers a lot of the same connections via AF.[/quote]
LHR would be great, with Virgin operating...it makes sense especially from CVG and markets like RDU.[/quote] It would be DL because they want to use VS as a competition brand against BA.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:37 pm

seatback wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

BNA is scheduled to go down to 1 a day starting in May. So like you said it will be interesting to see what happens as they phase some RJs out


What phasing out of RJs? Only a handful are being parked this year, and they're all mostly ATL flying, are they not.


Delta has previously stated that it is phasing out 50 seaters in the coming years. If you look at CVG, where 90 percent is CRJs, you are slowly seeing more mainline, but not the elimination of entire markets (thankfully).


Yeah, that's not going to happen, 50 seaters aren't going away totally at Delta, period. Ed even said so much in a recent Ask Ed segment on the internal website.
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seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:44 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
seatback wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

What phasing out of RJs? Only a handful are being parked this year, and they're all mostly ATL flying, are they not.


Delta has previously stated that it is phasing out 50 seaters in the coming years. If you look at CVG, where 90 percent is CRJs, you are slowly seeing more mainline, but not the elimination of entire markets (thankfully).


Yeah, that's not going to happen, 50 seaters aren't going away totally at Delta, period. Ed even said so much in a recent Ask Ed segment on the internal website.


May not be "totally", but I believe I've heard CVG will see a big reduction in 50-seat flying.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:42 pm

According to the CVG CEO, DL is removing all 50 seaters from CVG by the end of 2017. Routes like BNA/MEM were reduced in frequency, but were both up gauged to the CRJ-900. Some routes like EWR/XNA/DCA/DEN have kept their frequency, but have been up-gauged. Routes like ORD Similarly, in the future schedule, CVG-PHL/DFW/CLT/RDU/PHL will all go from 3 to 2 daily departures, but I bet DL will make another announcement that they are increasing seats, and make all of these routes 2x/day CRJ-900. That leaves BWI/YYZ/MKE/STL/MCI. Both MCI/STL already support CRJ-700/900 flight occasionally, so I think both frequencies will stay. YYZ and BWI could support 1-2 flights on a CRJ-700. MKE is the only route I am concerned about, however, a CRJ-700 does not have many more economy seats than a CRJ-200, plus it has business class seats, which could be useful. MKE has suffered as a result of DL/AA/UA in increasing capacity on CVG-ORD.

Statement: Talk about Delta starts @ 14:35, the CRJ piece is @ 15:52. Link: http://wvxu.org/post/impact-cincinnatin ... 0#stream/0
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:39 am

Most of this has been discussed on the "Rest of Ohio Thread", I think its kind of nice to discuss CVG/CMH/DAY on the same forum. If we are going to keep them separate, might I suggest we include LUK in this discussion?

As far as #7, I think Condor is the most likely carrier for European service, as FRA is the 2nd most underserved Europe destination from CVG behind LHR.

As far as #8, there have bene rumors DL might start CVG-LHR on October 29, 2017, when it acquires 5x/week slots to LHR. There is not a lot of demand in between CVG and AMS, and CDG connects to many of the places CDG does, so LHR makes a lot more sense (DL is calling it a hub in some places as well). Also, an airline analyst in Cincinnati recently made the prediction that CVG would see LHR service within the next 18 months (he predicted BA), as CVG is in the top 5 demand markets to LHR, without LHR service. I personally do not see BA adding Cincinnati, but DL makes a lot of sense. CVG has been actively talking to carriers, they just raised the incentive to $800,000 for 2 years, which matches PIT after "talking to carriers". I am hopeful!

I think this, as well as the increase of seats/larger aircraft, could come at an announcement this May/June in an effort to combat WN. There is also speculation that DL might relaunch CVG-MSY/AUS on CRJ-900 aircraft as well.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:05 am

With AA resuming mainline to DFW, (welcome back :bigthumbsup: ), could we eventually see other CVG AA mainline routes down the road, perhaps CLT (7 daily flights)?
Airports I've flown from: CVG PIT MWO PHL PHX ORD DCA IAD MIA TPA MCO FLL ATL DTW DFW SJC LAX DEN SLC LAS HNL LIH OGG YVR MUC ICN NRT PVG SHA SZX MNL PPS CRK BKK DMK KBV EOH MDE CLO CTG SMR BOG ACD MEX CUN MID AUA SAL RTB
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:51 am

One other important item to note is that DL is coming up on completing its Concourse B bond payments (2019 I believe). Movements on the DL front after that date will be crucial I believe. While promising that DL has increased capacity overall and to key non-hub markets, the deterioration in frequency and number of nonstop destinations served is still concerning. I'll be more convinced of DL's commitment to the market once, if ever, we start seeing their flight numbers increase and some routes resurrected.

My wish list for CVG is fairly modest:
- CVG-SEA restored to year-round (AS would be cool, too, but the market frankly does not appear as if it would be large enough at their price structure)
- Mainline restoration to LGA by DL (Can't believe this doesn't exist)
- UA mainline to EWR
- AA mainline to CLT
- Seasonal F9 service to PDX and/or SEA
- 2x weekly CVG-FRA Condor service
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:06 am

cvgComair wrote:
According to the CVG CEO, DL is removing all 50 seaters from CVG by the end of 2017. Routes like BNA/MEM were reduced in frequency, but were both up gauged to the CRJ-900. Some routes like EWR/XNA/DCA/DEN have kept their frequency, but have been up-gauged. Routes like ORD Similarly, in the future schedule, CVG-PHL/DFW/CLT/RDU/PHL will all go from 3 to 2 daily departures, but I bet DL will make another announcement that they are increasing seats, and make all of these routes 2x/day CRJ-900. That leaves BWI/YYZ/MKE/STL/MCI. Both MCI/STL already support CRJ-700/900 flight occasionally, so I think both frequencies will stay. YYZ and BWI could support 1-2 flights on a CRJ-700. MKE is the only route I am concerned about, however, a CRJ-700 does not have many more economy seats than a CRJ-200, plus it has business class seats, which could be useful. MKE has suffered as a result of DL/AA/UA in increasing capacity on CVG-ORD.

Statement: Talk about Delta starts @ 14:35, the CRJ piece is @ 15:52. Link: http://wvxu.org/post/impact-cincinnatin ... 0#stream/0


She said, "I believe by the end of this year". In other words, she doesn't really know. At any rate, I doubt DL would share such details with an airport exec. DL has publicly stated that 75% of the flights out of CVG will have an FC cabin. Why wouldn't they just say 100% if they are going to eliminate them all by the end of the year? There is talk that the CS100's may eventually enable DL to get rid of most or all of the 50 seaters, but those deliveries don't even begin until 2018. So maybe she was thinking of that order without understanding the timeframe for the deliveries.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:01 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
With AA resuming mainline to DFW, (welcome back :bigthumbsup: ), could we eventually see other CVG AA mainline routes down the road, perhaps CLT (7 daily flights)?


It wouldn't surprise me to see a 319 to CLT (along with PHX and LAX as I said before). As far as BA LHR service, I'd love to see it, but I have to assume there are stronger low hanging fruits to be picked before CVG.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:36 pm

There is a rumor that United is looking into adding LAX from CVG
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:41 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
One other important item to note is that DL is coming up on completing its Concourse B bond payments (2019 I believe). Movements on the DL front after that date will be crucial I believe. While promising that DL has increased capacity overall and to key non-hub markets, the deterioration in frequency and number of nonstop destinations served is still concerning. I'll be more convinced of DL's commitment to the market once, if ever, we start seeing their flight numbers increase and some routes resurrected.

My wish list for CVG is fairly modest:
- CVG-SEA restored to year-round (AS would be cool, too, but the market frankly does not appear as if it would be large enough at their price structure)
- Mainline restoration to LGA by DL (Can't believe this doesn't exist)
- UA mainline to EWR
- AA mainline to CLT
- Seasonal F9 service to PDX and/or SEA
- 2x weekly CVG-FRA Condor service

The bond payments are not what is keeping DL at CVG so I don't think you have much to worry about. If they wanted to cut more they will regardless of the bonds. Look at CLE, United still pays for another 10 years for an entire concourse that is boarded up.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:39 pm

AirportRival wrote:
There is a rumor that United is looking into adding LAX from CVG

I was thinking that we might see this, good to see its being rumored. I wonder how long its going to take for F9 to put an A321 on the route. That's a lot of capacity on CVG-LAX, wish we could get a flight to Orange County again!

seatback wrote:
rockyracoon wrote:
With AA resuming mainline to DFW, (welcome back :bigthumbsup: ), could we eventually see other CVG AA mainline routes down the road, perhaps CLT (7 daily flights)?


It wouldn't surprise me to see a 319 to CLT (along with PHX and LAX as I said before).


DL is putting the A319 on SEA to extend its season, and CVG-SFO will be an A319 to keep daily service in the January low-period. I have no doubt the CSeries will help CVG. Also, with the CSeries in the west, some 717's should be shifted east, I could easily see routes like CVG-LGA/ORD/DFW/IAH/EWR/JFK/BDL/DCA getting a few of these aircraft, freeing up CRJ-900's for smaller routes like MCI/STL/BWI/MKE. Also, CVG-SAN/PHX seem like very doable routes with the CSeries, both were always full when I was on them, but both had very low ticket prices, so my guess was profitability rather than low factor was the biggest issue for both flights.

It's still funny that CVG-PHX/RIC/PIT/GRR/MSN are still listed on DL's route map, some of these routes have not operated in 2 years! Wish they would bring them back :-).

michman wrote:
She said, "I believe by the end of this year". In other words, she doesn't really know. At any rate, I doubt DL would share such details with an airport exec. DL has publicly stated that 75% of the flights out of CVG will have an FC cabin. Why wouldn't they just say 100% if they are going to eliminate them all by the end of the year? There is talk that the CS100's may eventually enable DL to get rid of most or all of the 50 seaters, but those deliveries don't even begin until 2018. So maybe she was thinking of that order without understanding the timeframe for the deliveries.


True, but a 100 seat aircraft is not replacing a 50 seat aircraft, there is no need for DL to wait until 2018. It makes sense that DL would continue to up gauge the remaining CRJ-200 flights with CRJ-700/900, though I agree its unlikely all the routes will not be replaced by the end of this year, but certainly more should be replaced later in the year.

seatback wrote:
How much of a battle is it really with F9? Their less than daily flights and their lack of commitment to routes makes me believe that if WN wanted to come in and essentially push them out, they could.


F9 is building up frequency on quite a number of routes. They are currently doing 2x/day on MCO, DEN is 2x/day, LAS is 11x/week, LAX is 7x/week, SFO is 7x/week, PHX is 7x/week, LGA is 7x/week, and RSW is 7x/week. DFW/IAH/SAN/MSP/FLL/CUN/PHL/TPA are less than daily, but they are still operating quite the schedule from CVG, while WN could knock them out in the long run, short term, WN just does not have the position at CVG to completely drive G4/F9 off many of these routes.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:12 pm

seatback wrote:
rockyracoon wrote:
With AA resuming mainline to DFW, (welcome back :bigthumbsup: ), could we eventually see other CVG AA mainline routes down the road, perhaps CLT (7 daily flights)?


It wouldn't surprise me to see a 319 to CLT (along with PHX and LAX as I said before). As far as BA LHR service, I'd love to see it, but I have to assume there are stronger low hanging fruits to be picked before CVG.

319s to CVG from CLT or ORD wouldn't surprise me at all. (Or 319s on CLT-CMH either, but that's a different story :) )
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:56 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Most of this has been discussed on the "Rest of Ohio Thread", I think its kind of nice to discuss CVG/CMH/DAY on the same forum. If we are going to keep them separate, might I suggest we include LUK in this discussion?


I plan on keeping those threads rolling, so it'll just come down to how everybody wants to handle CVG in there with this thread going now.

ahj2000 wrote:
seatback wrote:
rockyracoon wrote:
With AA resuming mainline to DFW, (welcome back :bigthumbsup: ), could we eventually see other CVG AA mainline routes down the road, perhaps CLT (7 daily flights)?


It wouldn't surprise me to see a 319 to CLT (along with PHX and LAX as I said before). As far as BA LHR service, I'd love to see it, but I have to assume there are stronger low hanging fruits to be picked before CVG.

319s to CVG from CLT or ORD wouldn't surprise me at all. (Or 319s on CLT-CMH either, but that's a different story :) )


I used to think CLT-CMH was almost all E175 because of the Republic maintenance base, but now it's almost more PSA CR9s than E175s. I kind of get the feeling neither CMH nor CVG (not sure how CLE pulls it off) is going to get much, if any, CLT mainline as long as those big RJs are around.

CMH-PHL is about to get mainline back on the E190, though, so that could be an option.
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:15 pm

DeltaRules wrote:

CMH-PHL is about to get mainline back on the E190, though, so that could be an option.


The 190s are being withdrawn from the AA fleet over the next year and a half. CVG-CLT should be able to support a 319 on the overnight turn. The issue is more with the availability of 319s which is short on the LUS side (the LAA side has a few extra frames but those are in MIA or DFW rather than CLT)
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:27 pm

michman wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
According to the CVG CEO, DL is removing all 50 seaters from CVG by the end of 2017. Routes like BNA/MEM were reduced in frequency, but were both up gauged to the CRJ-900. Some routes like EWR/XNA/DCA/DEN have kept their frequency, but have been up-gauged. Routes like ORD Similarly, in the future schedule, CVG-PHL/DFW/CLT/RDU/PHL will all go from 3 to 2 daily departures, but I bet DL will make another announcement that they are increasing seats, and make all of these routes 2x/day CRJ-900. That leaves BWI/YYZ/MKE/STL/MCI. Both MCI/STL already support CRJ-700/900 flight occasionally, so I think both frequencies will stay. YYZ and BWI could support 1-2 flights on a CRJ-700. MKE is the only route I am concerned about, however, a CRJ-700 does not have many more economy seats than a CRJ-200, plus it has business class seats, which could be useful. MKE has suffered as a result of DL/AA/UA in increasing capacity on CVG-ORD.

Statement: Talk about Delta starts @ 14:35, the CRJ piece is @ 15:52. Link: http://wvxu.org/post/impact-cincinnatin ... 0#stream/0


She said, "I believe by the end of this year". In other words, she doesn't really know. At any rate, I doubt DL would share such details with an airport exec. DL has publicly stated that 75% of the flights out of CVG will have an FC cabin. Why wouldn't they just say 100% if they are going to eliminate them all by the end of the year? There is talk that the CS100's may eventually enable DL to get rid of most or all of the 50 seaters, but those deliveries don't even begin until 2018. So maybe she was thinking of that order without understanding the timeframe for the deliveries.


Seeing most of the 200's leave CVG wouldn't surprise me, as some will need to be shifted to ATL to cover the roughly 30 Expressjet 200's leaving the fleet. But, in terms of actually seeing the CR2 gone from Delta, I'll say it again. Ed Bastian very clearly stated on an Ask Ed segment recently that there is no plan to completely remove the CR2 from the fleet anytime soon. As the MX costs go up on them, he did mention they may be phased out, but there are a number of CR2's in the fleet today that are just barely 10 years old, they've got life left in them, especially as the number of cycles they do daily slows a bit.
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:54 pm

cvgComair wrote:

True, but a 100 seat aircraft is not replacing a 50 seat aircraft, there is no need for DL to wait until 2018. It makes sense that DL would continue to up gauge the remaining CRJ-200 flights with CRJ-700/900, though I agree its unlikely all the routes will not be replaced by the end of this year, but certainly more should be replaced later in the year.



It's indirect. The C-series can be used to upgrade a number of routes currently being flown with larger RJ's which then free's up those larger RJ's to upgrade 50-seater routes.
 
cvgComair
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:12 pm

michman wrote:
It's indirect. The C-series can be used to upgrade a number of routes currently being flown with larger RJ's which then free's up those larger RJ's to upgrade 50-seater routes.


Got it! That makes sense.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:19 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
But, in terms of actually seeing the CR2 gone from Delta, I'll say it again. Ed Bastian very clearly stated on an Ask Ed segment recently that there is no plan to completely remove the CR2 from the fleet anytime soon. As the MX costs go up on them, he did mention they may be phased out, but there are a number of CR2's in the fleet today that are just barely 10 years old, they've got life left in them, especially as the number of cycles they do daily slows a bit.


The CRJ-200's are going to have to stay in the fleet for some time, mainly for SLC/DTW/MSP, there are quite a few smaller routes from these hubs that really cannot support more than a CRJ-200. I hope DL keeps the CRJ-200's at CVG for at least long enough to keep frequency up against WN. While seats may be "increasing", daily flights continue to drop. We are at 84-85 daily flights, which is higher than the low of 79-81 in 2015. But before the recent changes, we went back up to 87-89 in late 2016.

Is there a labor contract/something else that legally keeps DL from adding First Class seats to the CRJ-200's (dropping the seat count below 50)? I have always thought this was the biggest issue for the CRJ-200 fleet. I know that many of the CRJ-200 routes are short, but CRJ-700/900 operate on many similarly short routes. Especially since some CRJ-200's will be in service for the next 5+ years, seems like (if technically possible) adding first class/economy comfort to the CRJ-200 could improve profitability on some routes.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm

cvgComair wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
But, in terms of actually seeing the CR2 gone from Delta, I'll say it again. Ed Bastian very clearly stated on an Ask Ed segment recently that there is no plan to completely remove the CR2 from the fleet anytime soon. As the MX costs go up on them, he did mention they may be phased out, but there are a number of CR2's in the fleet today that are just barely 10 years old, they've got life left in them, especially as the number of cycles they do daily slows a bit.


The CRJ-200's are going to have to stay in the fleet for some time, mainly for SLC/DTW/MSP, there are quite a few smaller routes from these hubs that really cannot support more than a CRJ-200. I hope DL keeps the CRJ-200's at CVG for at least long enough to keep frequency up against WN. While seats may be "increasing", daily flights continue to drop. We are at 84-85 daily flights, which is higher than the low of 79-81 in 2015. But before the recent changes, we went back up to 87-89 in late 2016.

Is there a labor contract/something else that legally keeps DL from adding First Class seats to the CRJ-200's (dropping the seat count below 50)? I have always thought this was the biggest issue for the CRJ-200 fleet. I know that many of the CRJ-200 routes are short, but CRJ-700/900 operate on many similarly short routes. Especially since some CRJ-200's will be in service for the next 5+ years, seems like (if technically possible) adding first class/economy comfort to the CRJ-200 could improve profitability on some routes.


There is nothing preventing them from adding first to a CR2, other than the obvious in you will have fewer seats to spread the cost across. They've made the decision to put Comfort Plus in the 200's, the 9E fleet is done, some (don't know how many) of the Expressjet fleet is done, no idea on the Skywest fleet.
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seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:22 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
But, in terms of actually seeing the CR2 gone from Delta, I'll say it again. Ed Bastian very clearly stated on an Ask Ed segment recently that there is no plan to completely remove the CR2 from the fleet anytime soon. As the MX costs go up on them, he did mention they may be phased out, but there are a number of CR2's in the fleet today that are just barely 10 years old, they've got life left in them, especially as the number of cycles they do daily slows a bit.


The CRJ-200's are going to have to stay in the fleet for some time, mainly for SLC/DTW/MSP, there are quite a few smaller routes from these hubs that really cannot support more than a CRJ-200. I hope DL keeps the CRJ-200's at CVG for at least long enough to keep frequency up against WN. While seats may be "increasing", daily flights continue to drop. We are at 84-85 daily flights, which is higher than the low of 79-81 in 2015. But before the recent changes, we went back up to 87-89 in late 2016.

Is there a labor contract/something else that legally keeps DL from adding First Class seats to the CRJ-200's (dropping the seat count below 50)? I have always thought this was the biggest issue for the CRJ-200 fleet. I know that many of the CRJ-200 routes are short, but CRJ-700/900 operate on many similarly short routes. Especially since some CRJ-200's will be in service for the next 5+ years, seems like (if technically possible) adding first class/economy comfort to the CRJ-200 could improve profitability on some routes.


There is nothing preventing them from adding first to a CR2, other than the obvious in you will have fewer seats to spread the cost across. They've made the decision to put Comfort Plus in the 200's, the 9E fleet is done, some (don't know how many) of the Expressjet fleet is done, no idea on the Skywest fleet.


I don't know of any other airline that has first class in their 50 seaters, whether ERJ or CRJ (or that has ever tried). There must be some economical reason for not doing so.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:51 pm

Didn't NW have plans for F on CRJ-200s in the mid-2000s?
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:03 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Didn't NW have plans for F on CRJ-200s in the mid-2000s?


I've heard it was studied, but that had more to do with the scope clause at the time that limited a chunk of the 200 fleet to 44 seats, which were known as CRJ-440's. So if you can only have 44 seats, it might make sense.
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cvgComair
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:03 am

Some updates on infrastructure at CVG:

Just flew in yesterday on the MSP-CVG 717-200 flight, which was packed, not one seat was empty! Seems like the route could support mainline more often during the year :-). Overhearing some others on the flight, many were discussing the lack of year round CVG-SEA service (I was also coming from SEA). I would estimate 1/3-1/2 of the flight was coming from SEA alone, I find it hard to believe DL could not make CVG-SEA work on a year round basis with all the connections in SEA now. A big share were coming from PDX as well (not suggesting DL should add it, but that would be nice :-)), I hope F9 looks at adding the route soon!

Looking around, C is almost gone, only the control tower and Southeast wing remain. I thought the demolition was supposed to take longer, but they have taken it down quick! (Sorry, no pics, it was really dark out, nothing turned out). I tried getting near the Amazon construction, but everything is pretty well sealed off. They have a bunch of signs around the area about WN coming, can't wait to see the finished gates as they have a great view of Concourse B. In Concourse B, a bunch of restaurants on the East Side were just closed, it appears they are renovating/adding new dinning options due to be opened Fall 2017, kind of surprising, nothing has really been done with shops/restaurants in B for many years. Also, the future rental car area is completely paved over where terminals 1 & 2 used sit, should be interesting to see the more detailed plans when the 2045 master plan comes out. I think its delayed as a result of the Amazon announcement, they started it in September 2016, so they probably had to go back and plan the taxiway improvements in the West area. Also, the expansion on Concourse A should be coming within the next 2-3 years, so it will be interesting to see what the plan is for that. The 9 million passenger goals for 2021 will necessitate more gates, unless they go common-use, we are almost to max capacity. Construction of gates A1, A2, A3, and A5 will relive some issues, but that will not alleviate issues for long.

Runways 09/27 and 18L/36R are supposed to be widened to 200 ft, though I am not sure on the timeline for that. With Amazon moving on the West side of the airport, I wonder if anything will be done to 18C/36C and 18R/36L. As discussed earlier, 18R/36L will probably be used a lot more with Amazon coming (its not currently used due to long taxi times to the terminal). I miss seeing the triple simultaneous arrivals, they still do dual arrivals on 18C/36C and 18L/36R, but the triple ones are so much cooler. Also, I am most excited to see more detailed plans for the Amazon site, we pretty much know nothing except for the basic geographic area and 3 million sqft sorting center. Much of this information will have to wait for the 2045 master plan, I am interested to see how much passenger and cargo increase the airport actually thinks will come (lets just say they were not very optimistic in the 2035 plan :-)).
 
seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:28 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Didn't NW have plans for F on CRJ-200s in the mid-2000s?


I've heard it was studied, but that had more to do with the scope clause at the time that limited a chunk of the 200 fleet to 44 seats, which were known as CRJ-440's. So if you can only have 44 seats, it might make sense.


Delta announced today that it will have Comfort + in its CRJ. I assume they'll still keep the 50 seat count...where is the space coming from?
 
seatback
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:29 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Some updates on infrastructure at CVG:

Just flew in yesterday on the MSP-CVG 717-200 flight, which was packed, not one seat was empty! Seems like the route could support mainline more often during the year :-). Overhearing some others on the flight, many were discussing the lack of year round CVG-SEA service (I was also coming from SEA). I would estimate 1/3-1/2 of the flight was coming from SEA alone, I find it hard to believe DL could not make CVG-SEA work on a year round basis with all the connections in SEA now. A big share were coming from PDX as well (not suggesting DL should add it, but that would be nice :-)), I hope F9 looks at adding the route soon!

Looking around, C is almost gone, only the control tower and Southeast wing remain. I thought the demolition was supposed to take longer, but they have taken it down quick! (Sorry, no pics, it was really dark out, nothing turned out). I tried getting near the Amazon construction, but everything is pretty well sealed off. They have a bunch of signs around the area about WN coming, can't wait to see the finished gates as they have a great view of Concourse B. In Concourse B, a bunch of restaurants on the East Side were just closed, it appears they are renovating/adding new dinning options due to be opened Fall 2017, kind of surprising, nothing has really been done with shops/restaurants in B for many years. Also, the future rental car area is completely paved over where terminals 1 & 2 used sit, should be interesting to see the more detailed plans when the 2045 master plan comes out. I think its delayed as a result of the Amazon announcement, they started it in September 2016, so they probably had to go back and plan the taxiway improvements in the West area. Also, the expansion on Concourse A should be coming within the next 2-3 years, so it will be interesting to see what the plan is for that. The 9 million passenger goals for 2021 will necessitate more gates, unless they go common-use, we are almost to max capacity. Construction of gates A1, A2, A3, and A5 will relive some issues, but that will not alleviate issues for long.

Runways 09/27 and 18L/36R are supposed to be widened to 200 ft, though I am not sure on the timeline for that. With Amazon moving on the West side of the airport, I wonder if anything will be done to 18C/36C and 18R/36L. As discussed earlier, 18R/36L will probably be used a lot more with Amazon coming (its not currently used due to long taxi times to the terminal). I miss seeing the triple simultaneous arrivals, they still do dual arrivals on 18C/36C and 18L/36R, but the triple ones are so much cooler. Also, I am most excited to see more detailed plans for the Amazon site, we pretty much know nothing except for the basic geographic area and 3 million sqft sorting center. Much of this information will have to wait for the 2045 master plan, I am interested to see how much passenger and cargo increase the airport actually thinks will come (lets just say they were not very optimistic in the 2035 plan :-)).


I can't believe restaurants can make money in any location that the B food court. Seems like Wolfgang and Max & Erma's are always empty.
 
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jelpee
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:19 pm

CVG remains a ghost town...here's a picture from February this year of Concourse B at about 9:00 AM. It's great not to have to deal with the crowds, but bad for business! Southwest coming to town in June should help with passenger traffic. However, I think the future of CVG lies with cargo movements (DHL and Amazon).

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/4224 ... 9YlhUEuSvy
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:43 pm

jelpee wrote:
CVG remains a ghost town...here's a picture from February this year of Concourse B at about 9:00 AM. It's great not to have to deal with the crowds, but bad for business! Southwest coming to town in June should help with passenger traffic. However, I think the future of CVG lies with cargo movements (DHL and Amazon).

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/4224 ... 9YlhUEuSvy


It may be empty, but 9 am is right after the morning DL bank, at that time the concourse is much more active. The airport is pretty much dead from 9-11 until DL's mini bank at 12. As long as DL wants to continue to pay the lease for Concourse B, I don't think it's "bad for business". With DL using the concourse at roughly 1/2-2/3 its capacity, operating costs are lower for the airport, so they make more of a profit. It's actually fully utilized in the two largest banks at 6-8 am and 5-8 pm. Just coming into CVG this past Wednesday in the evening, almost every gate was filled with a DL aircraft (there are about 30 arrivals during this bank, about 10-15 planes RON, while the rest depart again).

Agreed though, with Amazon, cargo should make up the majority of the airplane movements at the airport. While passengers should continue to grow to about ~9,000,000 by 2021, some estimates predict Amazon's cargo movement could push CVG into the top 5 largest cargo airports in the world.
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:54 am

seatback wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Didn't NW have plans for F on CRJ-200s in the mid-2000s?


I've heard it was studied, but that had more to do with the scope clause at the time that limited a chunk of the 200 fleet to 44 seats, which were known as CRJ-440's. So if you can only have 44 seats, it might make sense.


Delta announced today that it will have Comfort + in its CRJ. I assume they'll still keep the 50 seat count...where is the space coming from?



Announced today? The Endeavor fleet has had Comfort + for months already...
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cvgComair
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:28 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Announced today? The Endeavor fleet has had Comfort + for months already...


This whole thing is kind of misleading, as the 4 "Comfort +" seats have always existed as "preferred" seats. I guess it is a way to squeeze a few extra dollars out of the CRJ-200 flights. Never sat in row 1, but my understanding is that it is the worst bulkhead seat in Delta's fleet and is no more comfortable than the other rows, so unless you get free upgrades, I cannot see why you would pay for this seat (besides the cooler looking chair :-)). Still no WiFi, I have been expecting that one for some time, luckily I seldom travel on CRJ's because most of my flying is CVG-West Coast/Asia. It would be kind of funny seeing the snack basket out for just four people :-) (if they even get it out for such short flights).
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:17 am

cvgComair wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Announced today? The Endeavor fleet has had Comfort + for months already...


This whole thing is kind of misleading, as the 4 "Comfort +" seats have always existed as "preferred" seats. I guess it is a way to squeeze a few extra dollars out of the CRJ-200 flights. Never sat in row 1, but my understanding is that it is the worst bulkhead seat in Delta's fleet and is no more comfortable than the other rows, so unless you get free upgrades, I cannot see why you would pay for this seat (besides the cooler looking chair :-)). Still no WiFi, I have been expecting that one for some time, luckily I seldom travel on CRJ's because most of my flying is CVG-West Coast/Asia. It would be kind of funny seeing the snack basket out for just four people :-) (if they even get it out for such short flights).

No snack basket, simply isn't room in the galley of a 200 for more stuff. Free alcohol and dedicated bin space are really all you get. Like you said, it will be nothing more than an upgrade perk, very few people will actually buy the seats.
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michman
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:12 am

Snack Basket is only offered in Comfort+ on flights over 900 miles. Delta does not fly the CRJ-200 that far. Two of the seats are blocked for pax with disabilities (B and D) leaving only 2 seats for actual sale (and not even adjacent to each other). It all seems rather pointless.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:34 am

The baggage system at CVG completely stopped working last night and still hasn't been fixed. It made today a living nightmare for the ground handling companies. It's unacceptable that a major airport has a baggage system that is that much out of date. The airport needs to completely replace the whole system and remove all the old belts that are no longer used from the old hub days.
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:09 am

Would love to see SEA-CVG year round again maybe not with a 737. But with a a319 or a320
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:33 pm

AirportRival wrote:
The baggage system at CVG completely stopped working last night and still hasn't been fixed. It made today a living nightmare for the ground handling companies. It's unacceptable that a major airport has a baggage system that is that much out of date. The airport needs to completely replace the whole system and remove all the old belts that are no longer used from the old hub days.


There have been a lot of problems with the baggage system recently. On Wednesday, my bags went to two different belts, neither of which had my flight listed on them. It also seems to take just short of forever to get bags from Concourse B to the Main Terminal, part of that may be the distance. I am assuming the bag system is optimized for connections and transferring of bags between Concourse A/B, rather than to the Main Terminal?
 
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:48 pm

cvgComair wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
The baggage system at CVG completely stopped working last night and still hasn't been fixed. It made today a living nightmare for the ground handling companies. It's unacceptable that a major airport has a baggage system that is that much out of date. The airport needs to completely replace the whole system and remove all the old belts that are no longer used from the old hub days.


There have been a lot of problems with the baggage system recently. On Wednesday, my bags went to two different belts, neither of which had my flight listed on them. It also seems to take just short of forever to get bags from Concourse B to the Main Terminal, part of that may be the distance. I am assuming the bag system is optimized for connections and transferring of bags between Concourse A/B, rather than to the Main Terminal?


Oh believe me, I'm well aware that the baggage system has been having problems. All the belts from the hub days are still there so yes it's still optimized for connections and transfers. I'm guessing that close to 70% of the system in the ground is not operational because it no longer serves a purpose. Most of it could have been removed and stored so that it would be easier to maintain what is being used. The airport needs to bite the bullet and start a complete overhaul of the system immediately.
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Re: Cincinnati (CVG) Aviation Thread

Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:45 pm

michman wrote:
Snack Basket is only offered in Comfort+ on flights over 900 miles. Delta does not fly the CRJ-200 that far. Two of the seats are blocked for pax with disabilities (B and D) leaving only 2 seats for actual sale (and not even adjacent to each other). It all seems rather pointless.

I think it's purely to fill a service gap that was probably costing them money. A few months ago I had booked a Comfort+ ticket LAS-SEA-CVG on a 717 and 737 respectively. DL changed their schedules a few weeks out and I was re-routed LAS-DTW-CVG on a 757 and CRJ-200. Since the I had purchased a Comfort+ fare for the full original routing and my new routing did not offer Comfort+ on the DTW-CVG segment, DL ended up having to refund me a portion of the fare. I suspect I'm not the only one this has happened to...that and having a large number of connecting itineraries they can't sell at full Comfort+ fares keeps them from yielding as much as they could otherwise. This minor change fixes that gap.

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