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jetlanta
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:10 pm

Polot wrote:
Where are the beach aircraft originating from (in other words, how are the routed)? That could play a big factor in whether they stay around or not. If you have a lot of spare aircraft capacity in Japan due to the NRT hub then yes the flights may make sense and be profitable. But if not (i.e. drawing down NRT hub) then it may be harder to have frames available for use, which can change the cost equation (have to purposely schedule other flights with the necessary aircraft at the necessary times to still continue supporting beach market operations, or start purposely basing aircraft in Japan or Hawaii just for those flights).


They can be, and are often today, routed via mainland-Hawaii markets. ATL/MSP/SLC all operate with 333s. LAX has a variety depending on the season, but including 76Ws. It is easy enough.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:38 pm

kavok wrote:
Has it been decided if the DL Japan beach routes are included in the joint venture, as technically those routes are USA-Asia flights over the Pacific?

I just was curious how inclusive the proposed KE/DL JV is, and what is truly considered TransPacific.


KE does not have 5th freedom rights ex-NRT (or ex-Japan) to SPN and GUM. IIRC, JV's don't automatically "transfer" or "loan" any 5th freedom rights, and I see JCAB eager to change anything ex-NRT. Japan is the 4th largest av pax market in the world, and its govt is not eager to see KR encroach.

No work at HNL on infrastructure that would accommodate the Flying Honu. The current improvement project at HNL is mired in delays and cost overruns, so the only way the Honu will lay its eggs is if ANA builds the nest.

viewtopic.php?t=1344325&start=59
Last edited by WPvsMW on Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kavok
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:54 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
kavok wrote:
Has it been decided if the DL Japan beach routes are included in the joint venture, as technically those routes are USA-Asia flights over the Pacific?

I just was curious how inclusive the proposed KE/DL JV is, and what is truly considered TransPacific.


KE does not have 5th freedom rights ex-NRT (or ex-Japan) to SPN and GUM. IIRC, JV's don't "transfer" or "loan" any 5th freedom rights.


Ok, so using the same 5th freedom rules, the two KE flights to Canada (ICN-YVR/YYZ) would also be excluded?

This would leave only the following existing flights (plus anything additional that is added) as part of the JV:

DL: ICN-ATL, DTW, SEA
KE: ICN-ATL, ORD, DFW, HNL, IAH, LAS, LAXx3, SFOx2, JFKx2, SEA, IAD

If this is the case, it would appear like there would need to be a lot more flight additions on the DL side to balance things out.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25751
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:02 pm

kavok wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
kavok wrote:
Has it been decided if the DL Japan beach routes are included in the joint venture, as technically those routes are USA-Asia flights over the Pacific?

I just was curious how inclusive the proposed KE/DL JV is, and what is truly considered TransPacific.


KE does not have 5th freedom rights ex-NRT (or ex-Japan) to SPN and GUM. IIRC, JV's don't "transfer" or "loan" any 5th freedom rights.


Ok, so using the same 5th freedom rules, the two KE flights to Canada (ICN-YVR/YYZ) would also be excluded?

This would leave only the following existing flights (plus anything additional that is added) as part of the JV:

DL: ICN-ATL, DTW, SEA
KE: ICN-ATL, ORD, DFW, HNL, IAH, LAS, LAXx3, SFOx2, JFKx2, SEA, IAD

If this is the case, it would appear like there would need to be a lot more flight additions on the DL side to balance things out.


JBAs don't need to "balance out." Airline get their proportionate share of the revenue. Plenty of small players are part of JBAs, like Finnair and Royal Jordanian.

Canada and Mexico services are frequently included within the JBA.
a.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:10 pm

Even if NH paid for upper deck jetways for the Honus, the Wiki buses are not going away (and they are a miserable ride on a hot, humid day), C&I is not expanding, and the 0700 to 1400 banks, when the NRT turns are made at HNL, are JAMMED.

From posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=9516069
Pohakuloa wrote:
I am saying this because we assume NH will change the flight schedules for HNL. Currently all 3 TYO-HNL (2 NRT, 1 HND) flights on NH arrive within 2 hours of each other - all within the busy bank of international arrivals and departing at the front of the mass (for HNL) midday departure/arrival period. If they use them on both NRT flights only and not change the schedule they will arrive and depart within an hour of each other. With no gates in the width category for the 380, to use a gate with the double jetway (currently) would require each aircraft to take the space of 2 or 3 gates. 1 plane in the space of three and if both on the ground at the same time that's 4 lost gates in a very busy time. Gates are common use at HNL, but the shuffle would be and increased gate congestion could be very evident.


Expanded pre-clearance for inbound to HNL was a DHS topic in 2015, but nothing happened, and JP is not a Global Entry member. Here's the dark side: inadequate seating for A380 loads at the gates, inbound A380 pax wait on the plane until they can be Wiki-bussed to wait in line from the bus platform down to Immigration lobby, where they will wait in the serpentine queues ... which can take over an hour to clear once you are in the Immigration lobby.

IMO, NH may well rethink A380s to HNL and convert the A380 order into A359s.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
global1
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:15 pm

At some point in the past, didn't KE operate ICN-NRT-LAX (or SFO)? If so, didn't that entail Japanese 5th freedom rights?
 
hoons90
Posts: 3547
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:17 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
kavok wrote:
Has it been decided if the DL Japan beach routes are included in the joint venture, as technically those routes are USA-Asia flights over the Pacific?

I just was curious how inclusive the proposed KE/DL JV is, and what is truly considered TransPacific.


KE does not have 5th freedom rights ex-NRT (or ex-Japan) to SPN and GUM. IIRC, JV's don't automatically "transfer" or "loan" any 5th freedom rights, and I see JCAB eager to change anything ex-NRT. Japan is the 4th largest av pax market in the world, and its govt is not eager to see KR encroach.


KE flies CJU-KIX-GUM seasonally
http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/Kor ... nes_KE_733
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Interesting... not listed on the "major 5th freedom rights" sites.
 
kavok
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:28 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
kavok wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:

KE does not have 5th freedom rights ex-NRT (or ex-Japan) to SPN and GUM. IIRC, JV's don't "transfer" or "loan" any 5th freedom rights.


Ok, so using the same 5th freedom rules, the two KE flights to Canada (ICN-YVR/YYZ) would also be excluded?

This would leave only the following existing flights (plus anything additional that is added) as part of the JV:

DL: ICN-ATL, DTW, SEA
KE: ICN-ATL, ORD, DFW, HNL, IAH, LAS, LAXx3, SFOx2, JFKx2, SEA, IAD

If this is the case, it would appear like there would need to be a lot more flight additions on the DL side to balance things out.


JBAs don't need to "balance out." Airline get their proportionate share of the revenue. Plenty of small players are part of JBAs, like Finnair and Royal Jordanian.

Canada and Mexico services are frequently included within the JBA.



While I understand that they don't need to balance out, I was always under the impression that if one airline dominated the number/capacity of flights, then that airline would would also have dominate influence when decisions are made regarding new routes, capacity changes, etc.

If this is the case, I find it surprising that DL is willing to concede that much influence to KE.. but maybe they want the JV bad enough.

*And adding the two Canada flights to the agreement even shifts the influence even more in KE's favor.
 
petera380
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:35 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:30 pm

How about a hybrid paint scheme! :silly:
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:54 pm

It appears that Airways has seen more of the JV T&Cs...
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/analysi ... t-venture/
Their analysis and mine are consistent. NRT/beach markets stays on DL metal, Westbound ex-NRT will move to ex-ICN.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:54 pm

I would guess that the US will allow this to cover any relevant countries with which the US also has open skies. So that would open up DL's Mainland-Japan flights, DL and KE's HNL-Asia flights, and KE's flights to Canada.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:03 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
NRT/beach markets stays on DL metal


To be clear, I don't think anyone was ever suggesting that Japan beach market flying would switch to Korean Air. More to the point, the question remains - at least for me - whether this flying will exist at all in a few years for the Delta/Korean JV as the center of gravity for Delta's brand presence and network relevance in East Asia shifts from Japan to Korea. I remain skeptical, for all the reasons mentioned above.

That said, I also am not so sure about the suggestion that ATL-TYO could go away - I'm skeptical of that. ATL is the largest single airline hub on earth, and I find it very hard to believe that Delta would entirely eliminate a nonstop link from its largest and most important hub to the largest population center, and one of the world's most important commercial centers, which also happens to be the capital of one of the world's wealthiest societies. I highly, highly doubt that ATL-NRT is going anywhere.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:09 pm

Sightseer wrote:
I would guess that the US will allow this to cover any relevant countries with which the US also has open skies. So that would open up DL's Mainland-Japan flights, DL and KE's HNL-Asia flights, and KE's flights to Canada.


Open Skies are a govt to govt bilateral ASA, and typically do not contain 5th freedom rights. The US/KR Open Skies agreement was signed in 1998 and does not contain fifth freedom rights. https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ata/k/ks/114172.htm

@commavia. We agree to disagree on NRT/beach markets. There's a reason the beach markets are excluded from the JV... DL does not need KE's help and does not want to share a very well established O&D market. Were I DL, I would let KE fly its A380s ICN/ATL to free up DL metal, e.g., ATL/KIX.
 
obelau24
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:00 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:18 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I predict no change in DL's equipment, routes, and frequencies (other than historic seasonal adjustments) from HNL to Asia .... errr, I mean Japan, because the only Westbound HNL service is to Japan. Why... because the traffic is 90% Japanese nationals. DL is not going to change anything about that, and there would be resistance to that traffic boarding KE metal.

Expanding on that point, there will be some TPAC shift in traffic to ICN that downsizes NRT (and the Skyclub and Morning Calm lounges at NRT may consolidate), but DL's NRT routes that are predominately JP traffic will not go away.

[humor] Maybe HNL will get some A380 gates. [/humor]


I would love to see the Skyteam carriers come together at HNL and open a huge, world class lounge ala LHR. Not that we're a huge business center but business loads are very healthy all year round even if they are mostly tourists, not to mention all the elite flyers who come through even if in economy. As it is, DL, CI and KE operate separate lounges which seems like a waste, especially since space is a premium at HNL due to its antiquated design. A large rooftop lounge Like UA's situated above the main security area would be awesome and a convenient location since all the gates are spread out. Im living in a fantasy land, Im sure, but one can dream.
 
dmorbust
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:45 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
@commavia. We agree to disagree on NRT/beach markets. There's a reason the beach markets are excluded from the JV... DL does not need KE's help and does not want to share a very well established O&D market. Were I DL, I would let KE fly its A380s ICN/ATL to free up DL metal, e.g., ATL/KIX.


How do you know the beach markets are excluded from the JV? I'm just curious because the only public announcement we've heard is that the JV covers all USA-Asia except China. Is this beach market exclusion information from inside knowledge?
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:27 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:04 pm

For what happens to Delta's Japan routes, its pretty much a given NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN/PVG/MNL/SIN will be gone within a year of the DL/KE JV going into effect. The NRT-PVG slot either ends up going to ATL-PVG or LAX-PEK with consensus that the latter is the heavy favourite since Delta applied for this route. I don't see ATL/DTW/SEA-NRT going away. Delta has a monopoly on DTW/ATL-NRT so you can forget about those going away and Delta shares SEA-NRT with ANA's daily 77W flight. If more HND slots become available, which is likely to occur given the 2020 Olympics, it will depend on how many are allocated to the US. With the DL/KE JV, Delta has no need to block any further negotiations. If only two additional slots are allocated, UA and AA will likely receive them. However, if three or more are given out Delta will likely receive at least one additional slots. In the last round of applications, Delta applied for ATL-HND, which most people on this forum was longshot at best. I doubt Delta will apply for ATL-HND as its first priority in the next round and will likely have SEA-HND, DTW-HND, and then ATL-HND in that order. Delta figures that ANA may look to add SEA-HND in the next round of HND slot allocations while its highly unlikely JAL or ANA will start a nonstop flight to DTW or ATL. At most Delta will downgauge DTW-NRT to a A330-200 as the local market is there and Delta leadership has stated that Delta will always have a nonstop to Tokyo from Detroit. PDX-NRT is debatable. I suspect Delta may keep it as the local market is there and JAL/ANA would almost immediately jump in should Delta exit the market. I would venture PDX-ICN is more likely than not in the near future and it will be operated by KE.

As previously mentioned, I suspect HNL-Japan won't last very long given the various upcoming changes to the Hawai'i-Japan market. While Delta is fortunate to have a monopoly on HNL-FUK, successfully fending off HAL a few years ago, share HNL with a daily nonstop from JAL, its HNL-KIX/NRT where it is about to become challenging. The 377 seat A330-300 AirAsia X is about to add on HNL-KIX will definitely pressure Delta, which most of the year now operates a single 226 seat 767, down from a 747 and an A330-300 when HNL-Japan was at its peak. The real killer could be ANA's likely double daily A380 flights in 2019, putting immense pressure on the market. With a KE/DL JV in place, Delta could exit HNL-Japan on their own metal entirely while still selling HNL-NRT as KE operates it as a fifth freedom or vice versa. I still think SEA-KIX will be back as the connections are much better than when Delta exited the market years ago and the local market for KIX still exits. Once the Japanese economy actually grows rather than zero or negative growth for the past several years, KIX should be back on the table.
 
kavok
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:00 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
For what happens to Delta's Japan routes, its pretty much a given NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN/PVG/MNL/SIN will be gone within a year of the DL/KE JV going into effect. The NRT-PVG slot either ends up going to ATL-PVG or LAX-PEK with consensus that the latter is the heavy favourite since Delta applied for this route. I don't see ATL/DTW/SEA-NRT going away. Delta has a monopoly on DTW/ATL-NRT so you can forget about those going away and Delta shares SEA-NRT with ANA's daily 77W flight. If more HND slots become available, which is likely to occur given the 2020 Olympics, it will depend on how many are allocated to the US. With the DL/KE JV, Delta has no need to block any further negotiations. If only two additional slots are allocated, UA and AA will likely receive them. However, if three or more are given out Delta will likely receive at least one additional slots. In the last round of applications, Delta applied for ATL-HND, which most people on this forum was longshot at best. I doubt Delta will apply for ATL-HND as its first priority in the next round and will likely have SEA-HND, DTW-HND, and then ATL-HND in that order. Delta figures that ANA may look to add SEA-HND in the next round of HND slot allocations while its highly unlikely JAL or ANA will start a nonstop flight to DTW or ATL. At most Delta will downgauge DTW-NRT to a A330-200 as the local market is there and Delta leadership has stated that Delta will always have a nonstop to Tokyo from Detroit. PDX-NRT is debatable. I suspect Delta may keep it as the local market is there and JAL/ANA would almost immediately jump in should Delta exit the market. I would venture PDX-ICN is more likely than not in the near future and it will be operated by KE.

As previously mentioned, I suspect HNL-Japan won't last very long given the various upcoming changes to the Hawai'i-Japan market. While Delta is fortunate to have a monopoly on HNL-FUK, successfully fending off HAL a few years ago, share HNL with a daily nonstop from JAL, its HNL-KIX/NRT where it is about to become challenging. The 377 seat A330-300 AirAsia X is about to add on HNL-KIX will definitely pressure Delta, which most of the year now operates a single 226 seat 767, down from a 747 and an A330-300 when HNL-Japan was at its peak. The real killer could be ANA's likely double daily A380 flights in 2019, putting immense pressure on the market. With a KE/DL JV in place, Delta could exit HNL-Japan on their own metal entirely while still selling HNL-NRT as KE operates it as a fifth freedom or vice versa. I still think SEA-KIX will be back as the connections are much better than when Delta exited the market years ago and the local market for KIX still exits. Once the Japanese economy actually grows rather than zero or negative growth for the past several years, KIX should be back on the table.


Interesting thoughts. On future HND slots, I would suspect that the DOT will look favorably on airlines starting flights from cities that currently do not have HND service. This puts AA at DFW as a front runner, given they just missed out last time. However it works against UA because all of their logical spots already have service, and DL will also argue they are at a disadvantage with the ANA and JAL JVs. So I would suspect DL will have a very good shot at HND slot #2.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:42 am

The dialogue between commavia and jetlanta is key at this point. They get to the heart of the matter. Beach market.
Right now I'm leaning that it's not a key strategy for DL. But jetlanta is right also; where else to put the planes? South America and Europe are mediocre. Gotta fly the capacity somewhere.

Maybe sell some wide body capacity and trade down. Domestic is killing it right now anyway.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:44 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
I don't see ATL/DTW/SEA-NRT going away. Delta has a monopoly on DTW/ATL-NRT so you can forget about those going away and Delta shares SEA-NRT with ANA's daily 77W flight.


I agree. Again, Tokyo is still the largest population center on earth, and Japan is still one of the world's largest economies and wealthiest societies. Even without beyond-NRT connections - and frankly there aren't many these days, anyway - Delta should be able to make nonstops to TYO work from ATL, DTW, SEA, LAX and probably MSP. A year ago I also included JFK on that list, but I guess not.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
If more HND slots become available, which is likely to occur given the 2020 Olympics, it will depend on how many are allocated to the US. With the DL/KE JV, Delta has no need to block any further negotiations. If only two additional slots are allocated, UA and AA will likely receive them. However, if three or more are given out Delta will likely receive at least one additional slots.


I agree. It will obviously depend on what each airline actually proposes, but if/when additional HND slots become available, AA and United stand a good chance of picking up an additional pair first (to bring each up to 2x daily), then followed by Delta or Hawaiian (to bring each up to 3x daily).

DeSpringbokke wrote:
I still think SEA-KIX will be back as the connections are much better than when Delta exited the market years ago and the local market for KIX still exits. Once the Japanese economy actually grows rather than zero or negative growth for the past several years, KIX should be back on the table.


I'm skeptical. Perhaps KIX can support a third daily nonstop to the Mainland U.S., but history doesn't make me too optimistic.

kavok wrote:
On future HND slots, I would suspect that the DOT will look favorably on airlines starting flights from cities that currently do not have HND service. This puts AA at DFW as a front runner, given they just missed out last time. However it works against UA because all of their logical spots already have service, and DL will also argue they are at a disadvantage with the ANA and JAL JVs.


Yes - that's probably how things will play out. I'm biased, of course, but I personally agree that DFW stands a very good chance of getting a HND slot pair the next time around - for a variety of reasons. Beyond that, it's interesting to consider where United might go for. EWR seems like a logical gateway to propose since NYC is a huge O&D market to TYO and, despite, the ANA/JAL flights from JFK, EWR itself presently lacks access to HND.
 
global1
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:52 am

What are the prospects for a return of Icn/Lax/Gru as a joint venture? There is now feed at 3 hubs when you factor in GOL.
Or
787 service ICN/MIA or MCO.
Connectivity at ICN blows NRT or Hnd out of the water (i.e. Mnl/Bkk/Sin/Kul/Sgn etc.. or any number of Japanese cities aside from Tokyo) to ICN then MIA.

BOS/ICN would be almost a sure thing.

ICN as a NE Asia connector is powerful.
Facilities are without peer.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:29 am

peanuts wrote:
The dialogue between commavia and jetlanta is key at this point. They get to the heart of the matter. Beach market.
Right now I'm leaning that it's not a key strategy for DL. But jetlanta is right also; where else to put the planes? South America and Europe are mediocre. Gotta fly the capacity somewhere.

Maybe sell some wide body capacity and trade down. Domestic is killing it right now anyway.



Gotta fly the capacity somewhere is key. And the Japan-Hawaii markets have been probably Delta's highest margin Pacific routes on average over the past decade. for real. 2015-16 were tough due to the Yen devaluation, but the market has recovered from that. There is nothing more reliable in air travel than Japanese demand to Hawaii. And Delta (& NW) has been one of the two strangest players in it for decades. You don't give up that kind of flying due to strategy changes. You give it up because performance deteriorates. The only thing on the horizon that I believe is significant enough to impact it is the ANA 380 deployment. JAL will respond somehow, causing a bit of a capacity war. Everyone will suffer. But frankly CI and KE will probably exit before DL. Now that I think about it, if the JV includes Japan-Hawaii, DL will be the #1 player in the market. They won't just turn their backs on it overnight.

But again, it isn't "strategic" in the tradition sense. So if going gets really tough due to changing market dynamics, I think Commavia is correct. I just think that day is further into the future than many might think.
 
dmorbust
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:11 am

global1 wrote:
What are the prospects for a return of Icn/Lax/Gru as a joint venture? There is now feed at 3 hubs when you factor in GOL.


Not sure but I'd bet not unless LAX-GRU is profitable on its own.
I'd think DL and their 49% stake in AM would rather make those connections work at MEX. Visa free connections at MEX = better for LATAM connections than an LAX connection. I actually think MEX has a lot of potential as a LATAM to Asia transit hub especially for LIM-NRT, LIM-PVG, and LIM-ICN (all less than 1% extra distance via MEX than direct!), and EZE-NRT, PVG, ICN and SCL-NRT, PVG, ICN and BOG-NRT, PVG, ICN etc.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lim-nrt,+lim-mex-nrt = 0.5% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lim-pvg,+lim-mex-pvg = 0% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lim-icn,+lim-mex-icn = 0% difference

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-nrt,+eze-mex-nrt = 1.9% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-pvg,+eze-mex-pvg = 3.6% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-icn,+eze-mex-icn = 0% difference

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=scl-nrt,+scl-mex-nrt = 4% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=scl-pvg,+scl-mex-pvg = 3.6% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=scl-icn,+scl-mex-icn = 1.6% difference

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bog-nrt,+bog-mex-nrt = 1.1% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bog-pvg,+bog-mex-pvg = 2.4% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bog-icn,+bog-mex-icn = 2.7% difference

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=gru-nrt,+gru-mex-nrt = 1.1% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=gru-pvg,+gru-mex-pvg = 9.5% difference
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=gru-icn,+gru-mex-icn = 6.7% difference
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:34 am

The JP love affair with HI will continue unabated... Waikiki-ku. Increasingly, Kailua-ku (both Oahu and BI).
Today's frequencies (HNL frequencies increase in summer). Just NRT/HNL, to keep it simple.

EWR +JFK / NRT, daily nonstops: 4 (JL, NH, AA, UA)

LAX / NRT, daily nonstops: 5 (JL, NH, AA, UA, SQ)

HNL / NRT, daily nonstops: 11 (4 x JL, 2 x NH, UA, DL, KE, HA, CI)
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6975
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:04 am

dmorbust wrote:
I'd think DL and their 49% stake in AM would rather make those connections work at MEX. Visa free connections at MEX = better for LATAM connections than an LAX connection. I actually think MEX has a lot of potential as a LATAM to Asia transit hub


AM has been very successful in its Asia operations. NRT is now daily, isn't it? And the best thing is that it is nonstop both ways. ICN has been launched 4x weekly I think. PVG is also 4x weekly. Both the ICN and PVG routes are operated by 788s (as is NRT) and have a stop at MTY on the outbound, with the return non-stop. I am certain an important number of passengers are from Central and South America, so yes, despite the inconvenient transfer procedures at MEX, AM is certainly capturing an important number of Latin American travelers going to Asia and vice-versa. The DL-KE might mean also that KE will cooperate with AM to make the MEX-ICN route successful.
Last edited by EddieDude on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:05 am

commavia wrote:
I agree. Again, Tokyo is still the largest population center on earth, and Japan is still one of the world's largest economies and wealthiest societies. Even without beyond-NRT connections - and frankly there aren't many these days, anyway - Delta should be able to make nonstops to TYO work from ATL, DTW, SEA, LAX and probably MSP. A year ago I also included JFK on that list, but I guess not.

I agree. It will obviously depend on what each airline actually proposes, but if/when additional HND slots become available, AA and United stand a good chance of picking up an additional pair first (to bring each up to 2x daily), then followed by Delta or Hawaiian (to bring each up to 3x daily).

I'm skeptical. Perhaps KIX can support a third daily nonstop to the Mainland U.S., but history doesn't make me too optimistic.

Yes - that's probably how things will play out. I'm biased, of course, but I personally agree that DFW stands a very good chance of getting a HND slot pair the next time around - for a variety of reasons. Beyond that, it's interesting to consider where United might go for. EWR seems like a logical gateway to propose since NYC is a huge O&D market to TYO and, despite, the ANA/JAL flights from JFK, EWR itself presently lacks access to HND.


ATL-NRT is the only Southeast-Tokyo flight, unless you include double dailies on IAD/IAH/DFW-NRT. While the local market is not terribly strong, ATL is still the largest connecting hub on earth. Since I don't see ANA/JAL adding a flight to anywhere in the Southeast, let along from HND, ATL-NRT is definitely staying around. Hell, for a while it was Delta's only flight to Asia until they merged with NWA. DTW-TYO, the local market is there, so other than a downgauge to an A330-200, DTW-NRT isn't going anywhere despite HND connections from ORD/JFK. I suspect Delta's first choice for a third HND flight is SEA, despite Delta's previous failure with the route, although that was entirely due to the bad timings. As it would be a daytime flight and SEA-NRT would be dropped, Delta wouldn't have any trouble with operating SEA-HND again. LAX-HND is actually adding two seats when the 777 goes to a 242 tonne A330-300 this fall. I don't believe Delta has had any issue filling the plane. As already indicated earlier in the thread, the loads on MSP-HND are much improved since the launch last fall. In the long run, unless DOT gives Delta the blessing to transfer the slot elsewhere, Delta will continue to operate MSP-HND on a daily basis. I thought the 777 operating MSP-HND would be replaced by a 242 tonne A330-300 as LAX-HND is switching to this gauge but it appears Delta is keeping the 777, at least for now. Given the strict guidelines set by the DOT, its possible Delta won't alter the gauge at all until the fall of 2018, when AA's backup authority for DFW-HND expires. Maybe then will Delta change gauge, potentially downgauging to an A330-200 but adding MSP-ICN. Irregardless, MSP-HND will not be going anywhere in the medium term. While MSP-HND was probably the only chance Delta had of receiving a second HND slot. While there is a market, the early loads, especially in the rear of the 777, really indicate how Delta struggles without any sort of feed on HND, let alone an inter-line agreement.

I am not sure how many or when HND slots to the US will become available. With the DL/KE JV, no need for Delta to delay any allocation. If just three more are handed out, I suspect UA gets EWR-HND, AA receives DFW-HND, and my is guess Delta receives SEA-HND. And no, I don't expect HAL to receive another HND flight. Now if four HND slots are allocated to the US3, well things will get really interesting. While Delta exiting the NYC-TYO is a pretty shocking move to many of this forum, with JAL adding JFK-HND in addition to ANA's JFK-HND. Delta looks smart in getting out of NYC-TYO as they did not have access to HND. Maybe Delta applies for JFK-HND in the next round of HND slot allocations. UA is guaranteed in receiving EWR-HND if at least two slots are awarded. The only concern for Delta here is not if they awarded JFK-HND but rather if ANA is allocated more than one additional slot. I assume the order for routes most likely to gain HND flights are IAD-NRT, SFO-NRT, and SEA-NRT in that order. It would be damaging to Delta if ANA started SEA-HND while Delta is stuck with SEA-NRT and yields would probably take a big hit. So it will have to be seen how many slots will be allocated and if ANA/JAL receive an equal number of slots this time.

At one point Delta was going to upgauge SEA-KIX to an A330 but Yen devaluation killed the flight. The flight was going on very little connecting feed and was relying almost entirely on local traffic. The advantage Delta would have in operating SEA-KIX over UA's SFO-KIX and JAL's LAX-KIX is that it will only require the use of one aircraft in rotation. Using a more fuel efficient aircraft such as the A330-900 NEO, Delta might be able to make it work again. By the time Delta has enough A330-900 NEOs flying intercontinentally, hopefully the Japanese economy will be performing better.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:34 am

WPvsMW wrote:
The JP love affair with HI will continue unabated... Waikiki-ku. Increasingly, Kailua-ku (both Oahu and BI).
Today's frequencies (HNL frequencies increase in summer). Just NRT/HNL, to keep it simple.

EWR +JFK / NRT, daily nonstops: 4 (JL, NH, AA, UA)

LAX / NRT, daily nonstops: 5 (JL, NH, AA, UA, SQ)

HNL / NRT, daily nonstops: 11 (4 x JL, 2 x NH, UA, DL, KE, HA, CI)


And add

HND/HNL, daily nonstops: 2 (NH, HA)

so a total of 13 (at present) daily nonstops TYO/HNL. Total should bump to ~15 daily in summer.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:09 am

Overall, I am optimistic with news of this proposed "Joint-Venture" and the increase of daily ICN flights on departure from Los Angeles (my home airport) and San Francisco (to sample the 748i aircraft)!

+ I wish to see *DL-liveried planes occupying the boarding gates within the Main Terminal, rather than the further mid-field terminal, for the sake of time-saving transfers and passenger convenience.

*(I wrote, "DL-liveried planes... " instead of "Delta flights." I say this as some members have the urge to critique any mention of metal-neutral, etc., even when we all know what a member is trying to say in these J/V threads).

+ I hope to see a Korean Pre-Order Meal Service. Some Tokyo flights have an option to call and reserve the Japanese Meal Selection in advance for Transpacific flights to/from U.S.A. when flying in Businesselite/DeltaOne. One day, a very helpful flight attendant explained how the catering truck contains just one <<unreserved>> Japanese Meal Selection onto the plane. Also, I have experienced DL running out of the Korean Meal Selection on 3 out of 4 segments. (Not all of us are Diamond Medallions with those fabulous Global Upgrade Certificates or have jobs that send us around the world at the employer expense.) When one is paying that high J-fare out-of-pocket, it stings when one cannot secure a simple meal choice in advance (which isn't an unreasonable request when those meals are being catered for the flight anyway!).

On the other hand, one would have to be declared a complete wackadoo to demand an off-the-menu item, for example, an "all-you-can-eat" <<Korean Barbecue>> Meal of raw meats with a separate grill at your tray table with the various banchan (side dishes) when <<Bibimbap>> has been planned for the airline's Korean Meal Option of flights to/from Korea. Wow, meal choice rant over.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:21 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
commavia wrote:
I agree. Again, Tokyo is still the largest population center on earth, and Japan is still one of the world's largest economies and wealthiest societies. Even without beyond-NRT connections - and frankly there aren't many these days, anyway - Delta should be able to make nonstops to TYO work from ATL, DTW, SEA, LAX and probably MSP. A year ago I also included JFK on that list, but I guess not.

I agree. It will obviously depend on what each airline actually proposes, but if/when additional HND slots become available, AA and United stand a good chance of picking up an additional pair first (to bring each up to 2x daily), then followed by Delta or Hawaiian (to bring each up to 3x daily).

I'm skeptical. Perhaps KIX can support a third daily nonstop to the Mainland U.S., but history doesn't make me too optimistic.

Yes - that's probably how things will play out. I'm biased, of course, but I personally agree that DFW stands a very good chance of getting a HND slot pair the next time around - for a variety of reasons. Beyond that, it's interesting to consider where United might go for. EWR seems like a logical gateway to propose since NYC is a huge O&D market to TYO and, despite, the ANA/JAL flights from JFK, EWR itself presently lacks access to HND.


ATL-NRT is the only Southeast-Tokyo flight, unless you include double dailies on IAD/IAH/DFW-NRT. While the local market is not terribly strong, ATL is still the largest connecting hub on earth. Since I don't see ANA/JAL adding a flight to anywhere in the Southeast, let along from HND, ATL-NRT is definitely staying around. Hell, for a while it was Delta's only flight to Asia until they merged with NWA. DTW-TYO, the local market is there, so other than a downgauge to an A330-200, DTW-NRT isn't going anywhere despite HND connections from ORD/JFK. I suspect Delta's first choice for a third HND flight is SEA, despite Delta's previous failure with the route, although that was entirely due to the bad timings. As it would be a daytime flight and SEA-NRT would be dropped, Delta wouldn't have any trouble with operating SEA-HND again. LAX-HND is actually adding two seats when the 777 goes to a 242 tonne A330-300 this fall. I don't believe Delta has had any issue filling the plane. As already indicated earlier in the thread, the loads on MSP-HND are much improved since the launch last fall. In the long run, unless DOT gives Delta the blessing to transfer the slot elsewhere, Delta will continue to operate MSP-HND on a daily basis. I thought the 777 operating MSP-HND would be replaced by a 242 tonne A330-300 as LAX-HND is switching to this gauge but it appears Delta is keeping the 777, at least for now. Given the strict guidelines set by the DOT, its possible Delta won't alter the gauge at all until the fall of 2018, when AA's backup authority for DFW-HND expires. Maybe then will Delta change gauge, potentially downgauging to an A330-200 but adding MSP-ICN. Irregardless, MSP-HND will not be going anywhere in the medium term. While MSP-HND was probably the only chance Delta had of receiving a second HND slot. While there is a market, the early loads, especially in the rear of the 777, really indicate how Delta struggles without any sort of feed on HND, let alone an inter-line agreement.

I am not sure how many or when HND slots to the US will become available. With the DL/KE JV, no need for Delta to delay any allocation. If just three more are handed out, I suspect UA gets EWR-HND, AA receives DFW-HND, and my is guess Delta receives SEA-HND. And no, I don't expect HAL to receive another HND flight. Now if four HND slots are allocated to the US3, well things will get really interesting. While Delta exiting the NYC-TYO is a pretty shocking move to many of this forum, with JAL adding JFK-HND in addition to ANA's JFK-HND. Delta looks smart in getting out of NYC-TYO as they did not have access to HND. Maybe Delta applies for JFK-HND in the next round of HND slot allocations. UA is guaranteed in receiving EWR-HND if at least two slots are awarded. The only concern for Delta here is not if they awarded JFK-HND but rather if ANA is allocated more than one additional slot. I assume the order for routes most likely to gain HND flights are IAD-NRT, SFO-NRT, and SEA-NRT in that order. It would be damaging to Delta if ANA started SEA-HND while Delta is stuck with SEA-NRT and yields would probably take a big hit. So it will have to be seen how many slots will be allocated and if ANA/JAL receive an equal number of slots this time.

At one point Delta was going to upgauge SEA-KIX to an A330 but Yen devaluation killed the flight. The flight was going on very little connecting feed and was relying almost entirely on local traffic. The advantage Delta would have in operating SEA-KIX over UA's SFO-KIX and JAL's LAX-KIX is that it will only require the use of one aircraft in rotation. Using a more fuel efficient aircraft such as the A330-900 NEO, Delta might be able to make it work again. By the time Delta has enough A330-900 NEOs flying intercontinentally, hopefully the Japanese economy will be performing better.


I agree with all of this, except I don't think a HND slot is guaranteed for UA at EWR should only two slots be awarded. This would imply four total HND slots became available, and would assume JAL and ANA get one each. For discussion, I am also assuming AA to DFW gets the first US airline slot to HND.

That being the case, DL would have a strong argument with SEA over UA/EWR in that SEA would be serving a new market and new region of the country, as opposed to the NYC market which already has two HND flights in ANA/JFK & JAL/JFK. (Yes, I know there is a difference between JFK and EWR, but I don't know if the DOT will view it that way. Also, with AA, ANA and JAL each having a new flight, that brings both the JAL/AA and UA/ANA JVs to 4 flights each vs. DL with 2. DL would also then make the case that giving UA EWR would boost their JV to 5 flights, vs. giving them the flightbwhich would create a more balanced 4-4-3 balance.

For that reason, if only two slots become available, I believe DL would get SEA, and AA would get DFW... leaving out UA.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:03 pm

I think DL will add their own JV LAX-ICN-LAX and keep AA from entering market.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:23 pm

georgiabill wrote:
I think DL will add their own JV LAX-ICN-LAX and keep AA from entering market.


First, that wouldn't keep AA from entering the market - U.S.-Korea is Open Skies, and unlike major Chinese and Japanese airports, I don't believe ICN is particularly slot-constrained. Second, I'm not sure that Delta is going to add additional capacity on LAX-ICN in addition to Korean Air - it doesn't seem as if significant net capacity addition is all that big a priority for Delta across the Pacific at the moment.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:55 pm

commavia wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
I think DL will add their own JV LAX-ICN-LAX and keep AA from entering market.


First, that wouldn't keep AA from entering the market - U.S.-Korea is Open Skies, and unlike major Chinese and Japanese airports, I don't believe ICN is particularly slot-constrained. Second, I'm not sure that Delta is going to add additional capacity on LAX-ICN in addition to Korean Air - it doesn't seem as if significant net capacity addition is all that big a priority for Delta across the Pacific at the moment.


But, as many have speculated with the JV, the current DL flights from NRT will mostly be eliminated. Those frames will have to go somewhere, and the likely additions would be from the pool of LAX, MSP, SEA2, DTW2, PDX. So LAX is well within the realm of possibilities, especially if it keeps out AA.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:08 pm

kavok wrote:
But, as many have speculated with the JV, the current DL flights from NRT will mostly be eliminated. Those frames will have to go somewhere, and the likely additions would be from the pool of LAX, MSP, SEA2, DTW2, PDX. So LAX is well within the realm of possibilities, especially if it keeps out AA.


Maybe. Personally, I'm still skeptical about the Delta/Korean JV being particularly interested in material net capacity additions across the Pacific. To be clear - I'm not saying that Delta won't be adding capacity across the Pacific in coming years. I strongly suspect they will. I just think it will be offset with reductions in other places. I also don't doubt for a second that Delta may well end up adding capacity in U.S.-Korea markets already flown by Korean Air - I just suspect that it may be offset, perhaps, by reduced capacity from Korean itself. (So for example, I don't doubt that Delta may add LAX-ICN, but it could possibly be offset by, for example, the third daily Korean flight LAX-ICN that doesn't always operate daily.)

In any event though, again, none of this would preclude AA from adding LAX-ICN if it wanted to. The Delta/Korean JV adding net new capacity in the U.S.-Korea market would almost certainly undermine the economics of AA adding LAX-ICN, but it wouldn't stop it if AA were sufficiently motivated.
 
drdisque
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:35 pm

This will make things very difficult for Asiana, especially regarding service to the US. UA and NH don't want to work with them because anything booked on Asiana metal takes money away from the UA/NH JV and I don't see NH warming to having Asiana join the JV any time soon.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:12 pm

So how has the UA/JV worked out, and to what degree is it predictive of the success of the DL/KE JV?
https://www.ana.co.jp/wws/sg/e/local/fare/jv/

I seldom fly NH, and even more rarely UA, but my impression is the slot constraints at HND and NRT have severely constrained the impact of that JV.

IMO, the lack of slot constraints and SUPERIOR facilities (IMO, better than SIN or HKG) at ICN will turbocharge the DL/KE JV. (HND and esp. NRT are each a patches-on-patches asphalt, non-median 4-lane compared to an 8-lane interstate.)
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:00 pm

I do feel like Delta has actually gotten good timing with this. Not having a TPAC JV seems to have tipped the scales in regards to Haneda slot attribution.
On top of being able to operate through ICN that is not slot constrained and that is largely prefered over any hub in China.

Is there enough O&D between LAX and ICN for AA to justify yearly service ? Currently there is a huge amount of capacity with 5 daily flights (4 of which are A380's) same goes for DL (especially now there is no real need for it)
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:58 pm

With all this talk about adding KIX to the US mainland I think DTW-KIX-MNL is just as likely as SEA-KIX
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:31 am

klm617 wrote:
With all this talk about adding KIX to the US mainland I think DTW-KIX-MNL is just as likely as SEA-KIX


Wait...is that almost a positive comment about Delta adding an international flight to DTW? Or, are you just saying neither will ever happen?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:44 am

Regarding commentary about DL adding flights to ICN such as LAX, I think one thing needs to be remembered.

Korea-USA is largely an ethnic market with strong point of sale in Korea and the ethnic communities in the US.
These clients (and travel agents) are very loyal to KE/OZ, so it likely makes much more sense and benefit for the JV for KE to continue running most (virtually all) transpac segments to earn the benefit of this customer base. Forcing ever more passengers on DL operated flights where language, food, service is different could create negative outcomes.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:28 am

klm617 wrote:
With all this talk about adding KIX to the US mainland I think DTW-KIX-MNL is just as likely as SEA-KIX


I think a (more) likely outcome is that DTW-NGO is again extended to MNL if/when NRT-MNL is dropped.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:37 am

The JV could solve DL's RON problem at NGO, usually a 763.
 
obelau24
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:57 am

jetlanta wrote:
commavia wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
HNL/NRT, NRT/GUM, and NRT/SPN are huge cash cows that DL will not walk away from.


We'll see. Personally, I remain skeptical. As Delta's brand presence in Japan inevitably continues to diminish, it's hard for me to imagine a plausible economic rationale for dedicating tens of millions of dollars of capital assets for flying lower-yielding Japanese leisure passengers to beach resorts in Hawaii and Micronesia. And especially if (when) more low-cost competition comes into these markets - then I really think Delta will walk away from most if not all of that business.

Flying Japan beach markets made sense years ago - Delta, and Northwest before it, (1) needed a presence in beach markets to maintain loyalty among Japan O&D passengers, because (2) Delta needed those Japan O&D passengers to support local yields on all of the Japan-Asia flying, because (3) those higher local yields were used to reinforce the connecting traffic moving over NRT to support the core U.S. O&D market. Virtually none of that applies any longer, and thus Japan beach markets are no longer core to Delta's strategy.


Much of this is true. However, the Delta brand is now well-established in these markets and Delta does extremely well in them. If you question that....look at how much capacity Delta is flying in these markets right now and how much more they have on tap the remainder of the year (3x Daily NRT-HNL this Summer, for example). They aren't doing it for network strategy reasons. They are doing it because these markets are so well-established, and traditionally so strong, that they fight for them. Now what happens in the next major downturn is certainly a valid question. As is the influence of Air Asia X and ANA 380s. But the former can only be minimal capacity anyway due to the bilateral and they cannot fly from TYO.

Also, Japanese travelers that fly on Delta to these markets are not "Delta loyal" today. They don't fly Delta to the US mainland or Asia. They pretty much only fly Delta to Hawaii. But they've done that for years and years. Delta (and NW) has owned a huge share of this market for years because of the way it sells the product in Japan. Nothing about closing the NRT hub necessarily impacts that, so long as Delta wants to remain.

I do completely agree that these markets are not core to Delta's "Network Strategy", but they are important to their "Profit Strategy". Which is why they continue until there is some sort of shock to the system. Keep in mind that KE also flies NRT-HNL, btw.


Much agreed. Plus, if you check fares HNL-Japan, DL charges a premium for their services. You can consistently find Y for ~$600 on KE/CI or even PR but you'll have to search long and hard for anything under $900 on Delta except for really off-peak periods. I look all the time for a mileage run opportunity because Japan is an easy out-and-back with full service but prices are too high or only affordable for Monday to Monday.

Is this factual? Not necessarily but if they're consistently charging more than competitors then they must be doing something right, no?
 
obelau24
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:02 am

AirAfreak wrote:
.

+ I wish to see *DL-liveried planes occupying the boarding gates within the Main Terminal, rather than the further mid-field terminal, for the sake of time-saving transfers and passenger convenience.

*(I wrote, "DL-liveried planes... " instead of "Delta flights." I say this as some members have the urge to critique any mention of metal-neutral, etc., even when we all know what a member is trying to say in these J/V threads). .


This is something I'm curious about too because the new KE terminal opens later this year at ICN and its 'supposed' to house all KE flights. I can't imagine it's big enough to take on partner airlines as well but DL only has 3(?) flights a day so maybe that's a small enough operation to move in with KE.
 
hoons90
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:32 am

obelau24 wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:
.


This is something I'm curious about too because the new KE terminal opens later this year at ICN and its 'supposed' to house all KE flights. I can't imagine it's big enough to take on partner airlines as well but DL only has 3(?) flights a day so maybe that's a small enough operation to move in with KE.


KE, DL, AF and KL are confirmed to be moving into the new terminal.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:32 am

AREX is being extended to connect Terminals 1 and 2 (the new terminal) at ICN.
http://www.airport-technology.com/proje ... nal-seoul/
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:11 am

jbs2886 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
With all this talk about adding KIX to the US mainland I think DTW-KIX-MNL is just as likely as SEA-KIX


Wait...is that almost a positive comment about Delta adding an international flight to DTW? Or, are you just saying neither will ever happen?



What I'm saying is if some think KIX-SEA is viable than a DTW-KIX-MNL is just as viable.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:23 pm

klm617 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
With all this talk about adding KIX to the US mainland I think DTW-KIX-MNL is just as likely as SEA-KIX


Wait...is that almost a positive comment about Delta adding an international flight to DTW? Or, are you just saying neither will ever happen?



What I'm saying is if some think KIX-SEA is viable than a DTW-KIX-MNL is just as viable.
DTW-KIX has a market, but what I see happening is KE adding ICN as a 2nd daily. DL will end NGO and use KE for Japan and interior China connections. OR ANA could add TYO and use the same purpose, so either KE or ANA will go DTW to service KIX, MNL, NGO, FUK and HKG would be added still because of the significant market size.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
commavia
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:25 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DL will end NGO and use KE for Japan and interior China connections.


But why would Delta do that? There is clearly a market for a nonstop DTW-NGO route, with a demonstrated set of customers willing to pay for the convenience of a flight linking two of the world's most important automotive industry hubs. I'm not sure why Delta would simply walk away from some portion of that market, with or without a Korean JV.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:33 pm

commavia wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DL will end NGO and use KE for Japan and interior China connections.


But why would Delta do that? There is clearly a market for a nonstop DTW-NGO route, with a demonstrated set of customers willing to pay for the convenience of a flight linking two of the world's most important automotive industry hubs. I'm not sure why Delta would simply walk away from some portion of that market, with or without a Korean JV.


Exactly. And as long as the HA beach flight also exists to NGO, the DTW flight provides another way to swap out NGO frames for maintenance and scheduling.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3025
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:38 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Wait...is that almost a positive comment about Delta adding an international flight to DTW? Or, are you just saying neither will ever happen?

What I'm saying is if some think KIX-SEA is viable than a DTW-KIX-MNL is just as viable.
DTW-KIX has a market, but what I see happening is KE adding ICN as a 2nd daily. DL will end NGO and use KE for Japan and interior China connections. OR ANA could add TYO and use the same purpose, so either KE or ANA will go DTW to service KIX, MNL, NGO, FUK and HKG would be added still because of the significant market size.

The whole point of creating a hub in SEA was 1) to provide a location most directly on routes from various cities in the USA to Asia; and 2) to provide a location that offered shorter stage lengths between the USA and Asia.

It would be foolish to operate DTW-KIX rather than SEA-KIX unless there was a direct economic connection between those cities (al la DTW-NGO). The shorter stage length should eliminate the RON at KIX - and also potentially cut down on the number of frames needed.

In short, DTW serves to handle traffic to major Asian destinations, serving passengers (roughly) living east of the Mississippi, and also destinations with a direct economic connection. For other-than-major destinations, SEA (and LAX, to a lessor extent) serve the same purpose for passengers west of the Mississippi, and are better choices for thinner routes (which KIX would be, if it starts) whenever DL decides to expand its non-stop flights to Asia.

That is also why SEA-HKG is more successful than DTW-HKG was, although I can see a DTW-HKG returning if DL gets serious about growing again in Asia. I do think the JV with KE may slow that down for now, however.
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