Alias1024
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:54 pm

But right now the only KIX non-stops from the mainland are UA from SFO and JL from LAX. Maybe a DTW flight with feed from the eastern half of the US isn't a terrible idea with NRT drawing down.
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alfa164
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:19 am

Alias1024 wrote:
But right now the only KIX non-stops from the mainland are UA from SFO and JL from LAX. Maybe a DTW flight with feed from the eastern half of the US isn't a terrible idea with NRT drawing down.

Why would that be better than a KIX flight from SEA - which would draw from both the eastern half and the western half of the US?

UA (*A) and JL (OW) draw from a different customer-loyalty base than DL; SEA would draw from all over the country, rather than a limited region; and the operational efficiency of a 5,000-mile flight vs. a 6,600-mile flight makes SEA better prospect if DL chooses to operate from only from one hub in the USA. And, despite the draw-down of NRT as a hub, I don't think DL will be totally abandoning it anytime soon; Tokyo is simply too big a market to leave. DTW-NRT will be there for a long time, unless DL can miraculously get numerous additional slots at HND. Don't hold your breath for that...
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Alias1024
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:57 am

alfa164 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
But right now the only KIX non-stops from the mainland are UA from SFO and JL from LAX. Maybe a DTW flight with feed from the eastern half of the US isn't a terrible idea with NRT drawing down.

Why would that be better than a KIX flight from SEA - which would draw from both the eastern half and the western half of the US?

UA (*A) and JL (OW) draw from a different customer-loyalty base than DL; SEA would draw from all over the country, rather than a limited region; and the operational efficiency of a 5,000-mile flight vs. a 6,600-mile flight makes SEA better prospect if DL chooses to operate from only from one hub in the USA. And, despite the draw-down of NRT as a hub, I don't think DL will be totally abandoning it anytime soon; Tokyo is simply too big a market to leave. DTW-NRT will be there for a long time, unless DL can miraculously get numerous additional slots at HND. Don't hold your breath for that...


I see two benefits to DTW over SEA. First, it shaves a couple hundred miles of flying off itineraries from the northeast to KIX. Second, DTW isn't capacity constrained like SEA is for Delta. The feed is already there from every major and midsize east coast city. SEA simply doesn't have the facilities to add a lot of flights to midsize markets on the east coast. DL could sell single connections that they simply can't through SEA.


I don't think DTW-NRT will be going away soon, but the NRT-KIX flights are gone. That's what I was trying to point out with my NRT comments.
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flymco753
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:12 am

That's where NGO may end and ANA does DTW-TYO. That's a thought, I think the second ICN by KE would be better for interior China.
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upwardfacing
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:46 am

mercure1 wrote:
Regarding commentary about DL adding flights to ICN such as LAX, I think one thing needs to be remembered.

Korea-USA is largely an ethnic market with strong point of sale in Korea and the ethnic communities in the US.
These clients (and travel agents) are very loyal to KE/OZ, so it likely makes much more sense and benefit for the JV for KE to continue running most (virtually all) transpac segments to earn the benefit of this customer base. Forcing ever more passengers on DL operated flights where language, food, service is different could create negative outcomes.


Spot on. I don't think any US carrier has operated LAX-ICN-LAX, save for a brief stint by United in the 1990s, IIRC.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:08 am

Alias1024 wrote:
I see two benefits to DTW over SEA. First, it shaves a couple hundred miles of flying off itineraries from the northeast to KIX.

You are thinking it is advantageous to shave a couple of hundred miles off a route for maybe 15%-20% of the country, but to add thousands of miles for the passengers who most often go to Japan (i.e., west-coast travelers)? I don't think there are so many passengers begging to go to KIX from MHT or TVC to offset the loss of country-wide traffic - and DL already has flights to SEA from their larger markets in the east.

Alias1024 wrote:
Second, DTW isn't capacity constrained like SEA is for Delta. The feed is already there from every major and midsize east coast city. SEA simply doesn't have the facilities to add a lot of flights to midsize markets on the east coast..

Construction is underway at SEA already; by the time the dust settles on the KE-DL JV; the Japanese economy recuperates enough to justify additional traffic; and Delta is ready to consider non-stop routes on its own metal, SEA's improvements should be complete..

Alias1024 wrote:
II don't think DTW-NRT will be going away soon, but the NRT-KIX flights are gone. That's what I was trying to point out with my NRT comments.

Agreed. But, with the JV, DL can easily serve DTW-ICN-KIX (or XXX[name your US departure point]-ICN-KIX) without need for its own flights into Osaka. It isn't quite right to say "KIX is gone" when it can be flown via the JV. The demand just isn't there - as their own history has proven - for another nonstop from the USA - yet.

flymco753 wrote:
That's where NGO may end and ANA does DTW-TYO. That's a thought, I think the second ICN by KE would be better for interior China.

I think DL will continue to concentrate on non-stops from DTW-PEK and DTW-PVG, for both practical and prestige reasons. The warming KE friendship will give them the opportunity to code-share into many secondary Chinese cities, but it cannot be a part of the JV; China is excluded.

If they had any plans to expand with flights on their own metal to other airports in China - and I have no idea where that could be, although UA has done a surprisingly good job of picking-and-choosing successful long, thin routes from SFO - I am sure those plans have moved to the back burner... if not completely off the stove.
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:57 am

upwardfacing wrote:
Spot on. I don't think any US carrier has operated LAX-ICN-LAX, save for a brief stint by United in the 1990s, IIRC.


NWA back in the day(late 1980 - early 90s) operated LAX-SEL with beyond service to HKG/BKK.

Braniff also ran the route, though its short misadventure came and went before anyone noticed.

LAX-Seoul is the second largest US mainland-Asia route after LAX-Tokyo. But as mentioned it is indeed a largely ethnic market which on the U.S. end is strongly controlled by travel agent/consolidators.
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:55 am

alfa164 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
I see two benefits to DTW over SEA. First, it shaves a couple hundred miles of flying off itineraries from the northeast to KIX.
You are thinking it is advantageous to shave a couple of hundred miles off a route for maybe 15%-20% of the country, but to add thousands of miles for the passengers who most often go to Japan (i.e., west-coast travelers)? I don't think there are so many passengers begging to go to KIX from MHT or TVC to offset the loss of country-wide traffic - and DL already has flights to SEA from their larger markets in the east.




You do remember DTW-KIX was operated for many years. We are not talking about MHT and TVC we are talking about BDL,EWR,DCA,CLE,CMH need I add more which all require a double connect if they are traveling to KIX. Why would you want to compete in a market that already has plenty of attractive options when you can have the east coast market basically to yourself. Operated with an A350 and add the MNL tag to the route and this is a much more attractive option than a SEA-KIX for the eastern half of the US. If I live in the east why would I want to travel all the way to SEA when I can travel in most cases less than 2 hours to Detroit and then one long segment instead of two. Time is money for business travelers making Detroit much better situated than SEA to KIX from the east. BTW last I checked more than 15 to 20 percent of the USA population lives east of the Mississippi.
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Osubuckeyes
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:16 pm

I haven't seen it posted on this thread, but on another forum it was referenced that the 757s that currently run the NRT-Beach markets will be undergoing configurations to bring them in line with the 75Hs. This could be a signalling that the NRT-SPN/GUM/ROR won't be around much longer.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:48 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
I haven't seen it posted on this thread, but on another forum it was referenced that the 757s that currently run the NRT-Beach markets will be undergoing configurations to bring them in line with the 75Hs. This could be a signalling that the NRT-SPN/GUM/ROR won't be around much longer.


Or it could simply be signalling that Delta wants the efficiency and flexibility of moving aircraft around more freely without having to worry about a lot of non-standard configurations. To be clear - I have said repeatedly, in this and other threads, that I personally don't think much of the NRT-Micronesia flying Delta is presently doing on 757s will be around long-term. But even having said that, I don't think a 757 reconfiguration necessarily points to that eventuality happening immediately.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:34 pm

commavia wrote:
Osubuckeyes wrote:
I haven't seen it posted on this thread, but on another forum it was referenced that the 757s that currently run the NRT-Beach markets will be undergoing configurations to bring them in line with the 75Hs. This could be a signalling that the NRT-SPN/GUM/ROR won't be around much longer.


Or it could simply be signalling that Delta wants the efficiency and flexibility of moving aircraft around more freely without having to worry about a lot of non-standard configurations. To be clear - I have said repeatedly, in this and other threads, that I personally don't think much of the NRT-Micronesia flying Delta is presently doing on 757s will be around long-term. But even having said that, I don't think a 757 reconfiguration necessarily points to that eventuality happening immediately.


Normally I would agree with that, but the Micronesia fleet wasn't really ever bridged to North America so the efficiency& flexibility haven't really ever been necessary. Entirely possible that this is just a coincidence, but I think the timing indicates that these routes don't have much left. Additionally, one would think that if they were serious about keeping these routes around there would be an effort to transition these birds to the 75S D1 product.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu May 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Per Edward Russell on FlightGlobal, Delta is aiming for the KE partnership by June.
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu May 11, 2017 7:05 pm

Be a bit more specific, they plan to reach an agreement in 30 days (that is, June), and announce the details to the public in 60 days. After reaching an agreement, they will apply for immunity with the US and Korean governments. They expect to start the JV sometime in 2018.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 8:09 am

alfa164 wrote:
which would draw from both the eastern half

Like who, other than low fare seekers or contracted pax?

Image

Why would anyone from the likes of NYC/BOS connect to KIX via SEA when they can connect in Asia, save hundreds of miles, with far more options..... unless they were hunting for bottom-barrel fares?
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 8:14 am

dynkrisolo wrote:
they will apply for immunity with the US and Korean governments.

They already have immunity, since 2002.

They'd just be applying for approval of the JV.
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 11:58 am

When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 12:05 pm

klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.


Why would they when DL already operates it?
 
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787fan8
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 12:21 pm

klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.

With DL already operating DTW-ICN, I don't really see why they'd want to.
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winginit
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 12:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
dynkrisolo wrote:
they will apply for immunity with the US and Korean governments.

They already have immunity, since 2002.

They'd just be applying for approval of the JV.


I'm not certain that's quite how it works given the material change of the cooperation brought on by the revenue share. For example, AA and QF had ATI starting back in 2011, but when they filed for their JV 2.0, they had to reapply for ATI given the material change to the cooperation. Interestingly enough, when that was shot down by the DOT, they didn't simply revert back to their 2011 ATI but it undid that as well and they had to scale back to pre-2011 levels of cooperation.

That being the case, with DL and KE an entirely new case for ATI needs to be made and accepted by the authorities.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 1:04 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.


Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 1:06 pm

787fan8 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.

With DL already operating DTW-ICN, I don't really see why they'd want to.



For the very same reason Delta started ATL-ICN
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FSDan
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 2:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.


Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 2:07 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
which would draw from both the eastern half

Like who, other than low fare seekers or contracted pax?

Image

Why would anyone from the likes of NYC/BOS connect to KIX via SEA when they can connect in Asia, save hundreds of miles, with far more options..... unless they were hunting for bottom-barrel fares?


Because they have found value in the loyalty schemes.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 2:11 pm

FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.


I wonder if BOS-ICN is also being considered, given DL's recent moves there and the fact that there is no Skyteam non-stop option to Asia.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 2:52 pm

FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.



Due to the automotive industry there is a lot of Korean-Detroit traffic and most of that traffic is Korean based. I would think that if you match the demand for DTW and ATL to Korea you will see that it doesn't warrant 2 dailies from ATL-ICN and can't say for SEA but seats verse O/D in the Detroit and Atlanta market you will see that the percentage of O/D is greater in the Detroit market verse the Atlanta market and let face it Detroit is the flagship hub to Asia for Delta certainly warranting a KE DTW-ICN nomstop. Why would DL or KE add MSP-ICN when they can barely make Tokyo work under the current strategy in which Delta operates it's Asian network.
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 2:53 pm

N717TW wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
which would draw from both the eastern half

Like who, other than low fare seekers or contracted pax?

Image

Why would anyone from the likes of NYC/BOS connect to KIX via SEA when they can connect in Asia, save hundreds of miles, with far more options..... unless they were hunting for bottom-barrel fares?


Because they have found value in the loyalty schemes.



Exactly just look at all the people who fly out of their way over their Atlanta hub when there are several other more attractive routings
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 3:03 pm

I would suspect any DL/KE additions of ICN-USA would be on DL metal. KE already flies their own metal to a bunch of US destinations, whereas DL only flies to ICN from three.

To better balance the JV, DL is going to need some more flights to ICN... hence any addition will likely be on DL metal. This would likely include a new MSP flight, a PDX flight ( shifted from NRT)... and possibly a BOS or DTWx2 flight... but all would be on DL metal.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 3:05 pm

Sightseer wrote:
FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.


I wonder if BOS-ICN is also being considered, given DL's recent moves there and the fact that there is no Skyteam non-stop option to Asia.


I would assume that ICN-BOS on KE will happen sooner or later. Boston has to be the largest, or one of the largest holes for KE in their North American network.
 
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 3:21 pm

klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.



Due to the automotive industry there is a lot of Korean-Detroit traffic and most of that traffic is Korean based. I would think that if you match the demand for DTW and ATL to Korea you will see that it doesn't warrant 2 dailies from ATL-ICN and can't say for SEA but seats verse O/D in the Detroit and Atlanta market you will see that the percentage of O/D is greater in the Detroit market verse the Atlanta market and let face it Detroit is the flagship hub to Asia for Delta certainly warranting a KE DTW-ICN nomstop. Why would DL or KE add MSP-ICN when they can barely make Tokyo work under the current strategy in which Delta operates it's Asian network.
Either KE will add a 777 or DL will add a 777, either how DTW could definitely have 2 ICN flights in the next few years, kind of like MEX, one is catered towards the local populations for connections onward and the other can capture connections from the US side going to ICN.
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 4:32 pm

kavok wrote:
I would suspect any DL/KE additions of ICN-USA would be on DL metal. KE already flies their own metal to a bunch of US destinations, whereas DL only flies to ICN from three.

To better balance the JV, DL is going to need some more flights to ICN... hence any addition will likely be on DL metal. This would likely include a new MSP flight, a PDX flight ( shifted from NRT)... and possibly a BOS or DTWx2 flight... but all would be on DL metal.


All of DL's transpacific flights except China are included.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 4:33 pm

kavok wrote:
I would suspect any DL/KE additions of ICN-USA would be on DL metal. KE already flies their own metal to a bunch of US destinations, whereas DL only flies to ICN from three.

To better balance the JV, DL is going to need some more flights to ICN... hence any addition will likely be on DL metal. This would likely include a new MSP flight, a PDX flight ( shifted from NRT)... and possibly a BOS or DTWx2 flight... but all would be on DL metal.


I think for cost and more flexibility as far as Delta is concerned they should move the KE SEA-ICN flight to Detroit and operate the second frequency out of Seattle on their own. If need be they can manage the capacity in that market greater going down to 2X 767s daily or as big as 2 X A350 at least that way KE carries the burden of flying a longer segment plus a larger aircraft verses Delta.
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 4:42 pm

kavok wrote:
I would suspect any DL/KE additions of ICN-USA would be on DL metal. KE already flies their own metal to a bunch of US destinations, whereas DL only flies to ICN from three.


Considering the point of sale in market favors Korea, and sale in the US is largely to ethnic Koreans who prefer to stick with KE/OZ, throwing DL metal, product and service into the mix likely will be a negative for these consumers. The JV would be better maximizing KE flying.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 4:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
787fan8 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.

With DL already operating DTW-ICN, I don't really see why they'd want to.



For the very same reason Delta started ATL-ICN


Totally two different markets. The Korean population is huge in Atlanta.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 5:23 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
klm617 wrote:
787fan8 wrote:
With DL already operating DTW-ICN, I don't really see why they'd want to.



For the very same reason Delta started ATL-ICN


Totally two different markets. The Korean population is huge in Atlanta.



Premium business travel between Detroit and Korea s huge to and as it's been pointed out here many time just because the ethnic population is there doesn't mean a whole lot. f that were the case most middle eastern flights would fly between the middle east and Detroit cause we have the largest middle eastern population out side of the middle east. So business wise Detroit is just as huge as Atlanta. If it were as huge as you say Delta would have operated ATL-ICN a long time ago the only reason it was added was because of the impending JV between DL and KE
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FSDan
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 5:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
klm617 wrote:


For the very same reason Delta started ATL-ICN


Totally two different markets. The Korean population is huge in Atlanta.



So business wise Detroit is just as huge as Atlanta. If it were as huge as you say Delta would have operated ATL-ICN a long time ago the only reason it was added was because of the impending JV between DL and KE


It's not just the Korean population that supports ATL-ICN. Don't forget that the major Korean automakers have strong ties to the South, with plants in Alabama and Georgia.
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tlecam
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Re; Boston, I would guess that the route would favor the 787 (KE) or the 350 (DL). Not sure about economics of a 777. I don't think it would be a 747/380 route, and I'm not sure if a HGW 339 has the legs to do it? Someone smarter than me will know.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 6:15 pm

N717TW wrote:
Because they have found value in the loyalty schemes.

What HVCs (in any appreciable quantity) are going to fly thousands of miles out of their way just to get loyalty scheme points that devalue by the day? We're talking about the kind of people for whom time is everything, not FlyerTalkers.

That one's lumped into deal seakers.


jbs2886 wrote:
All of DL's transpacific flights except China are included.

DL's been (understandably) mum on how this will affect their desire for a hubbing relationship with MU. I do wonder how much of that is still on.


tlecam wrote:
I'm not sure if a HGW 339 has the legs to do it?

Nope. It'd be the 2nd longest A330 flight ever, but the A339 doesn't have the legs for that.
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N717TW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 7:40 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
N717TW wrote:
Because they have found value in the loyalty schemes.

What HVCs (in any appreciable quantity) are going to fly thousands of miles out of their way just to get loyalty scheme points that devalue by the day? We're talking about the kind of people for whom time is everything, not FlyerTalkers.

That one's lumped into deal seakers.


I disagree; you are 100% correct for HVCs who buy paid J. While that is a significant percentage of the profit that comes with Int'l flights its not the entire story nor are these the only HVCs on the plane. The mid-level exec or product-delivery employee whose employer (or because (s)he's a self-employeed contractor) is buying a Y or W class ticket is much more likely to stay on a specific airline or alliance because of the loyalty scheme. Not all frequent flyers are FlyerTalkers looking for the proverbial free ride trip. If I'm in the back of the bus on TPAC or TATL (which I have been more than once) I'm going to take the detour that allows me to get Y+, get lounge access, priority security/customs, and other special perks that make an otherwise awful 10 hour flight tolerable. Plus you're missing the biggest reason why roadwarriors are willing to take the detour for an int'l flight...those actual miles go a huge way to qualifying for status. Unless you're flying back and forth to India every month (and there are a few people I know who do this) then sticking it out to stay on your airline of choice for the 2-3 international trips you do every year even if its not the best routing is worth it as it is often the difference between Gold and Plat status (or whatever an airline calls their middle and highest levels)

That's different from the FlyerTalk routing (which in the interest of full disclosure I behave like when it comes to using miles for free flights). The contorted PVD-ATL-AMS-EDI (which I have actually done to get a 100,000 mile F/J award ticket c.f. 180,000 miles for BOS-JFK-EDI) is what you are talking about. That's a lot different than BOS-SEA-KIX or JFK-SEA-HKG.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 8:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When can we expect DTW-ICN to be announced on KE.


Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


You're really just out of control with how you justify things. So because SEA and ATL have both DL & KE then DTW should too?!?! If anything you bring a good laugh to this board.

First off, as mentioned earlier, both ATL & SEA have more O&D demand to ICN than DTW (SEA more so than ATL). For the sole sake of the size of the ATL hub it can support both KE and DL, just as DFW can support both AA & KE. DTW doesn't have the demand or a hub large enough to warrant KE coming in.

Though I give you credit for your comically strong defense and rationale of DTW.
 
johns624
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 9:12 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Considering the point of sale in market favors Korea, and sale in the US is largely to ethnic Koreans who prefer to stick with KE/OZ, throwing DL metal, product and service into the mix likely will be a negative for these consumers. The JV would be better maximizing KE flying.
This has nothing to do with ethnic Koreans. DL and KE want to turn ICN into the Asian AMS-the hub for onward connections.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 9:32 pm

While I am not anyone who thinks DTW is the center of the universe...a KE flight into DTW isn't out of the question. Obviously the JV hasn't gone into effect yet, but once it does, I'm sure we can expect to see some shuffling around of capacity.

As we've seen with the DL/AF/KL and DL/VS JVs, one of the main driving factors into 'who' flies 'what' to 'where' is point of sale. SLC-Europe is primarily US point of sale, hence why DL flies SLC-LHR/CDG/AMS, but there clearly was enough European point of sale to justify a seasonal flight from KL. I would guess that DTW-ICN is primarily US point of sale, so my money would be on it staying on DL metal for some time.

In the same breath, I wouldn't expect DL to start LAX-ICN anytime soon either given how Koreans are particularly loyal to KE and OZ, including the huge number of Koreans in LA.
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 9:48 pm

intotheair wrote:
While I am not anyone who thinks DTW is the center of the universe...a KE flight into DTW isn't out of the question. Obviously the JV hasn't gone into effect yet, but once it does, I'm sure we can expect to see some shuffling around of capacity.

As we've seen with the DL/AF/KL and DL/VS JVs, one of the main driving factors into 'who' flies 'what' to 'where' is point of sale. SLC-Europe is primarily US point of sale, hence why DL flies SLC-LHR/CDG/AMS, but there clearly was enough European point of sale to justify a seasonal flight from KL. I would guess that DTW-ICN is primarily US point of sale, so my money would be on it staying on DL metal for some time.

In the same breath, I wouldn't expect DL to start LAX-ICN anytime soon either given how Koreans are particularly loyal to KE and OZ, including the huge number of Koreans in LA.



That logic is so flawed DTW-Europe has way more European point of sale tickets than Salt Lake City Europe does secondly what makes you think the point of sale from Detroit to Korea is US point of sale. At one point I was heavily entrenched in the Auto supply chain and I assure you the Detroit based traffic is more Korean based than US based which I would assume is the case with Atlanta. The top brass was always flying in from Korea so hence KE would be a great addition for them I'm sure if they were given the option. People need to understand this region before they make uninformed comments about it.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 12, 2017 9:54 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Why would they when DL already operates it?


Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


You're really just out of control with how you justify things. So because SEA and ATL have both DL & KE then DTW should too?!?! If anything you bring a good laugh to this board.

First off, as mentioned earlier, both ATL & SEA have more O&D demand to ICN than DTW (SEA more so than ATL). For the sole sake of the size of the ATL hub it can support both KE and DL, just as DFW can support both AA & KE. DTW doesn't have the demand or a hub large enough to warrant KE coming in.

Though I give you credit for your comically strong defense and rationale of DTW.



Can somebody please post the numbers of O/D traffic between Atlanta and China and Detroit and China and the tell me how with a lower O/D out of Detroit than Atlanta yet DTW has 2 nonstop to China and ATL has zero and use this same logic as to what DTW should have both KE and DL on the DTW-ICN route
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat May 13, 2017 1:22 am

intotheair wrote:
While I am not anyone who thinks DTW is the center of the universe...a KE flight into DTW isn't out of the question. Obviously the JV hasn't gone into effect yet, but once it does, I'm sure we can expect to see some shuffling around of capacity.

As we've seen with the DL/AF/KL and DL/VS JVs, one of the main driving factors into 'who' flies 'what' to 'where' is point of sale. SLC-Europe is primarily US point of sale, hence why DL flies SLC-LHR/CDG/AMS, but there clearly was enough European point of sale to justify a seasonal flight from KL. I would guess that DTW-ICN is primarily US point of sale, so my money would be on it staying on DL metal for some time.

In the same breath, I wouldn't expect DL to start LAX-ICN anytime soon either given how Koreans are particularly loyal to KE and OZ, including the huge number of Koreans in LA.


Ke uses two A380, on the LAX ICN rout I see this has being enough.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat May 13, 2017 1:53 am

klm617 wrote:
That logic is so flawed DTW-Europe has way more European point of sale tickets than Salt Lake City Europe does

I said nothing about DTW-Europe. I used SLC-Europe as an example of how DL uses existing JVs. It was not a comment on DTW-Europe or anything other than an illustration of how DL and partners often optimize metal for each route depending on customers on both ends. That's what JVs do, and that's what the DL/KE JV will do.

secondly what makes you think the point of sale from Detroit to Korea is US point of sale.

Nuance is important to understand. I never said DTW-Korea is only full of Americans. There's a mix of both US and foreign traffic on all DL and partner flights everywhere — it's not black and white. But it stands to reason that if DTW is DL's Asia gateway for the east, as you often suggest, wouldn't the slight majority of DL's DTW-Asia traffic consist of both DTW O&D as well as connections?

so hence KE would be a great addition for them I'm sure if they were given the option.

And I never said it wouldn't be. I'm certain DL and KE will start moving things around here and there once the JV goes into effect.

grbauc wrote:
Ke uses two A380, on the LAX ICN rout I see this has being enough.

I agree, and I would be a little surprised to see them split it up onto any DL metal there. It's amazing how strong the Korean airlines are in LA. The KE ticketing office in Koreatown is pretty large and prominent too.
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N717TW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat May 13, 2017 2:03 am

Goodness this thread got testy rather quickly.....

Once the JV takes over there will be a lot of shifting of metal around to match up with demand. There will several rounds of analysis that the operation as a whole takes into account. The first round is:
1. What is the division of equity in the alliance...its not a 50/50 split as it doesn't include China but does include HKG nor does it include the "Japanese Beach markets" and therefore KE is significantly larger than DL in this venture.
2. What the respective pilots unions require for flying time. Its safe to assume that each union has stipulated to some minimum or some percentage of flying.
3. How much traffic will be routed through ICN compared to SEA/DTW or NRT, if there is any beyond NRT flying anymore.

Then you get to specific routes and the analysis there:
1. Who has the rights to fly the route (some obvious such as YVR-ICN or DTW-NGO; some less obvious such as anything USA-ICN plus KE still has and still uses its US-NRT 5th freedom right)
2. Who has the space/capacity within the division of equity and union agreement schemes -- if for example KE is a 60% owner of the JV then 60% of the seats will likely be KE planes with KE pilots.
3. Who has the right sized plane and available crew for the route (this is actually more important than point of sale in the TATL alliance)
4. Brand value, probably point of sale but not always. Essentially what brand will attract more passengers.

What does that mean?
Will there be a 3rd LAX-ICN flight and might it be on DL? maybe if they think they can funnel another plane load of passengers through ICN and if they think that having a DL option will help them sell tickets to Southeast Asia by doing so because SkyMiles members want to stay on DL flights as much as possible, then yes it will happen. Although LA, being a huge Korean ethnic market, does favor KE operated flights.

Will there be a 2nd DTW-ICN flight and might it be on KE? Same logic as the LAX route except that it probably favors DL...frankly much depends on how much traffic there is between Korea and secondary and tertiary cities in the Northeast and Midwest. If there is a lot then if makes sense to have a 2nd flight (if needed) on KE. If the answer is no (say much of the traffic will be Japan or Southeast Asia to US and/or SkyMiles members, then DL makes sense.

Will one of the SEA flights go away? Maybe. Would probably make sense to upguage to one flight if they both hit the same bank at ICN. In that case, flight probably goes to KE as they have larger jets available. Frankly would be awesome to have a 748 option.

Could KE actually take over the SEA-NRT or start LAX-NRT flight? Sure they could since they have the 5th freedom right that is used to be on LAX. Hard to see them taking over LAX as that route seems to be too crowded and less popular, but stronger things have happened.

Will new destinations be started and will they be on KE? This one I feel more secure in answering: New TPAC gateways in the US will be started and unless they are within 767 or 332 range odds are they'll be on KE. Why? Because KE has 787s that are ideal for starting and developing routes like MSP/BOS/EWR/SAN/PHL/SJC-ICN if any of them are to open.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Sat May 13, 2017 2:30 am

3rd daily(well technically 5x weekly) KE ICN-LAX starts June 1st.

KE015 ICN-LAX 1130-0650 77W
KE016 LAX-ICN 1025-1505 77W

LA-Seoul is the 2nd largest US48 to Asia city pair in O&D (LAX-TYO largest). Annual O&D is over 1 million annually, virtually all ethnic Koreans, so carriers like KE/OZ have strong home team sales advantage on both sides of the Pacific.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 19, 2017 7:58 am

Well, JetBlue wants the DOT to review this partnership:

JetBlue asks US DOT to review Delta-Korean Air ATI JV, authorised over a decade ago but in different competitive marketplace.

JetBlue notes Delta-Korean Air originally had ATI authorisation to combat Northwest - which Delta since merged with.

JetBlue: it would be "extraordinary, inherently anti-competitive" to permit Delta-Korean Air JV without US DOT review.


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LAXintl
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 19, 2017 1:50 pm

Dont worry - the DOT will review it carefully, same as they did with the expansion of ties between AA & QF.

The marketplace has changed greatly since the carriers initial partnership and codesharing many moons ago, hence the need for a new broader review.

The most interesting point of JetBlue's argument is that they state the DOT place time limits on ATI JVs and require them to be renewed at normal intervals, with JetBlue proposing 5-years. Renewals would allow the DOT to review the evolving marketplace landscape while being able to see if the ventures really produced the public benefits they claimed they would.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri May 19, 2017 2:30 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Dont worry - the DOT will review it carefully, same as they did with the expansion of ties between AA & QF.

The marketplace has changed greatly since the carriers initial partnership and codesharing many moons ago, hence the need for a new broader review.

The most interesting point of JetBlue's argument is that they state the DOT place time limits on ATI JVs and require them to be renewed at normal intervals, with JetBlue proposing 5-years. Renewals would allow the DOT to review the evolving marketplace landscape while being able to see if the ventures really produced the public benefits they claimed they would.


The 5 year period is exactly what was done with DL-Aeromexico. But if UA-ANA and AA-JAL aren't 5 years, DL would have a good argument against it.

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