Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:28 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Cebu Pacific and Philippines Air Asia are seeking rights to serve India, Philippine Airlines might lose theirs if CP gets it, which is what they are trying to do according to Flightglobal.


Do Philippine Airlines serve any Indian airport currently?
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:34 pm

Turkey's president is visiting India later this week. Turkey has been seeking enhanced bilaterals for a while now, but the govt is following the policy that the Indian side should have used 80% of the entitlements, and no Indian carrier serves Turkey presently. However, India is seeking Turkey's support for NSG, wonder if India will relax that rule as part of negotiations over NSG.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2260
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:30 pm

blrsea wrote:
Turkey's president is visiting India later this week. Turkey has been seeking enhanced bilaterals for a while now, but the govt is following the policy that the Indian side should have used 80% of the entitlements, and no Indian carrier serves Turkey presently. However, India is seeking Turkey's support for NSG, wonder if India will relax that rule as part of negotiations over NSG.

NSG problem is not lack of support of enough members. Its the veto power of China.
I don't think Turkey, a traditional US ally would be able to influence China much...
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:31 pm

blrsea wrote:
Turkey's president is visiting India later this week. Turkey has been seeking enhanced bilaterals for a while now, but the govt is following the policy that the Indian side should have used 80% of the entitlements, and no Indian carrier serves Turkey presently. However, India is seeking Turkey's support for NSG, wonder if India will relax that rule as part of negotiations over NSG.


I hope not. TK is in bad shape and desperate to keep its network afloat. They offer rock bottom fares from the US to BOM/DEL as it is. The market just doesn't need any more seat dumping below operating costs. India is now very well connected to the EU and US (one stop). India needs some time for its airlines (and I include both Vistara and Indigo) to stabilize internationally. Also a few key nonstop flights India-US need to launch. Then India should expand the ME4 bilateral. Until them, let's give a small (and I mean small) push to the likes of 9W & AI who are at least launching flights and trying to become integrated into global aviation. What ever you might think, at least 9W is firmly in bed with DL/AF/KL/VS - not bad company for an Indian airline to be aligned with. I also think UA will announce some sort of code share with AI - ORD, SFO, IAD are important hubs for UA and its doubtful that UA would launch nonstops to India from those cities. Even in SF, ideally AI can have DEL-SFO and UA take BLR/BOM-SFO. That is what the STAR SF customer wants - choice and nonstop connectivity.
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:34 pm

According to Wiki, the passenger throughput for 2016 at JFK and SIN were 55.9 and 58.6 mil respectively, with a YoY growth rate around 3-6%, while the numbers of DEL are 55.6 mil with a growth of approx 20% over the previous year.

So would it be safe to say that DEL could very well overtake both these mega airports by the next year itself?
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
User avatar
CanadaFair
Posts: 1120
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:22 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:41 pm

unrave wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
Cebu Pacific and Philippines Air Asia are seeking rights to serve India, Philippine Airlines might lose theirs if CP gets it, which is what they are trying to do according to Flightglobal.


Do Philippine Airlines serve any Indian airport currently?


No, thats why CP wants those rights given to it.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:42 pm

anshabhi wrote:
blrsea wrote:
Turkey's president is visiting India later this week. Turkey has been seeking enhanced bilaterals for a while now, but the govt is following the policy that the Indian side should have used 80% of the entitlements, and no Indian carrier serves Turkey presently. However, India is seeking Turkey's support for NSG, wonder if India will relax that rule as part of negotiations over NSG.

NSG problem is not lack of support of enough members. Its the veto power of China.
I don't think Turkey, a traditional US ally would be able to influence China much...


Turkey has traditionally supported Pakistan, and has sometimes wavered on supporting India's bit at NSG.

I am not in favour of giving away more rights to other carriers, especially when Indian carriers are just trying to make their mark. So even I hope there is no increase in Turkey bilaterals as there is really not much O&D traffic and its just for connecting traffic. One of the main reasons why there is no Indian carrier on this route.

I had hoped GoI would get totally rid of the 5 year/20 aircraft rule, but they just diluted it. Hopefully more Indian carriers start utilizing the unused part of our various bilaterals.
 
subramak1
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:06 pm

I think AI , 9W should be allowed to build themselves out..

AI Has a fantastic hub in Delhi, I wish they have more non stops to US including DFW

9W is providing excellet connectivity from BOM to most of europe and through their connections onto US.

With the BLR, MAA flights starting I guess it is matter of time now . It opens up more 1 stop options for India - US.

No more freebies to ME4.

When Vajpayee government opened Indian aviation to ME companies there was a threefold reasoning. None of these are valid for India any more

1. Increasing connectivity to India
2. Improving relations with UAE( remember this was shortly after IC 814)
3. Improving Trade relations, it is after this multiple Indian companies set up base

Subu
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:49 am

JOYA380B747 wrote:
According to Wiki, the passenger throughput for 2016 at JFK and SIN were 55.9 and 58.6 mil respectively, with a YoY growth rate around 3-6%, while the numbers of DEL are 55.6 mil with a growth of approx 20% over the previous year.

So would it be safe to say that DEL could very well overtake both these mega airports by the next year itself?


Yes, definitely. DEL is now the 15th busiest airport in the world, up from 20th place just a year ago. Among the top 15 airports DEL had the fastest growth rate last year with only ICN witnessing a growth rate that was comparable to DEL. In fact CAPA reckons DEL is the dark horse in the race for the first Asian 100 m airport. Among other contenders DXB and PEK have reached capacity and will shift some or all of their operations to newer airports, HKG is constrained by capacity and will require its 3 runway system to come on board to expand, while SIN and BKK have been growing too slowly in the recent years. At a very modest (by Indian standards) growth of 10% a year, DEL will breach the mark by 2023. The sooner the airport builds T4 and the fourth runway, the better it is.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:27 am

India is thinking of clubbing all of UAE's bilaterals together, it currently has separate ones for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah, Ras-Al-Kaimah.

Government starts talk for unified flying rights pact with UAE


MUMBAI: In a likely solution to the long-standing debates and lock jam on India’s bilateral air service agreements with the UAE, the aviation ministry has proposed to club the flying rights given to four separate Emirates under one pact.

India currently has separate air service agreements with Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah and Ras-Al-Khaimah.

If the proposal goes through, the new agreement will give more room and flexibility to carriers in India and the UAE in their operations between the countries.

For example, if an Indian airline is using only half its flight rights to Sharjah, it can, under the proposed agreement, deploy the remaining capacity to Dubai. On the other hand, a carrier from Sharjah need not fly Indians only to its base, but can also take them to Ras-Al-Khaimah.

The minister of state for civil aviation, Jayant Sinha, has called a meeting of airlines, sector regulator Directorate General of Civil Aviation and foreign ministry officials early next month “to examine the pros and cons” of the proposal.
..


On a related note - INDIA AND SAUDI ARABIA NAMED DUBAI’S TOP TOURISM SOURCE MARKETS

During the first 10 months of the year, the number of tourists from India, which is the emirate’s largest market, hit 1.4 million, up 11 percent on the same period in 2016.

The number of tourists from Saudi Arabia and Dubai’s third largest visitor source market, the UK, jumped 4 percent.

Saudi tourism arrivals increased from 1.31 million to 1.36 million, while the number of British tourists leaped from 974,000 to 1.01 million.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2260
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:37 am

blrsea wrote:
India is thinking of clubbing all of UAE's bilaterals together, it currently has separate ones for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah, Ras-Al-Kaimah.



That's a really good idea. It will solve all the bilateral related vows, and among other things, make EY & EK bitter rivals.
For Indian airlines, it's win-win as well. After clubbing, there will be 134,000 seats between India-UAE.
Air Arabia also wants to operate from Ras Al Khaimah to India.
Image
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:03 am

I'm not sure this will end the bilateral related woes when only about 14k seats are available in total on the UAE side, with most of the unutilised capacity remaining with Abu Dhabi, who may not be keen on letting Emirates use them. This will only be a stop gap measure until the Indian carriers utilise 80% of the remaining allocation after which we will be back to the drawing board. This has been repeated ad nauseam but India needs to stop this ad hoc allocation of rights and come up with a bilateral policy that is in the best interest of common Indian folk and not just protect the Indian carriers.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8475
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:56 am

blrsea wrote:
India is thinking of clubbing all of UAE's bilaterals together, it currently has separate ones for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah, Ras-Al-Kaimah.

Government starts talk for unified flying rights pact with UAE


That is indirectly saying we don't want to give you anymore.

UAE wants the flexibility to move allotments within emirates at will while keeping agreements separate. Like move RAK quota to Sharjah.

AUH has an advantage with highest access to India. It also has exclusive access 9W(India) side of bilateral in its bucket.

Indian carriers though maxed out at DXB, can open up other ME destinations to carry O&D traffic. There is no mandatory need to connect at DXB like EK.
All posts are just opinions.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:13 pm

I think clubbing all the bilaterals together is a GREAT idea. This way the India-DXB max out is solved for the Indian side (and theoretically the UAE side). It was silly for India to allow separate agreements to begin with. It just opened India up to pressure from each sheik. I bet EY will object and a coin toss on 9W. I can't see any Indian airline adding more seats to AUH. This is about DXB and to a much lesser extent Sharjah. And agreement it is an indirect way of saying we will not expand the bilateral. So kudos to the GOI for staying firm. India has been very generous to the UAE while the UAE has done everything in their power to stifle growth of Indian carriers.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:30 pm

unrave wrote:
I'm not sure this will end the bilateral related woes when only about 14k seats are available in total on the UAE side, with most of the unutilised capacity remaining with Abu Dhabi, who may not be keen on letting Emirates use them. This will only be a stop gap measure until the Indian carriers utilise 80% of the remaining allocation after which we will be back to the drawing board. This has been repeated ad nauseam but India needs to stop this ad hoc allocation of rights and come up with a bilateral policy that is in the best interest of common Indian folk and not just protect the Indian carriers.


I'm sorry, I fail to understand how more seats for UAE carriers = good for the common Indian folk? EK has kept India-DXB fares relatively high using O&D to subsidize long haul connecting traffic. Are we agreed on that? India-UAE has a ton of carriers flying the route = competition = good for consumers. Indian carriers really have driven low cost travel between DXB, AUH and India. You have to think of things broader than just one bilateral. If Indian carriers go out of business, competition goes down and the consumer loses. Each new route that is launched (and it can only be launched if the carrier can make some profit), helps keeps fares down. Just having EK fly 5X a day DXB-HYD with no Indian carriers pushes fares UP. By clubbing the agreements together, the excess seats AUH is allocated will see Indian carriers add more capacity to DXB-India. This is where the seats are needed. As long as EK continues to allocate too many seats to their long haul connecting business, Indian carriers will then serve O&D and drive prices down. EK wants more seats in order to help expansion into the US (and Africa, Europe). You are kidding yourself if you think they are interested in lowering India-DXB fares. I missed the concept of allowing EK to fly from say AUH-India. I don't think that should be allowed. UAE's airlines are heavily subsidized. Indian carriers have some right to make a profit. Just the competition between Indian carriers and the one dominant UAE carrier on the route is probably enough to ensure "the common man" gets a good fare.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:42 pm

unrave wrote:
I'm not sure this will end the bilateral related woes when only about 14k seats are available in total on the UAE side, with most of the unutilised capacity remaining with Abu Dhabi, who may not be keen on letting Emirates use them. This will only be a stop gap measure until the Indian carriers utilise 80% of the remaining allocation after which we will be back to the drawing board. This has been repeated ad nauseam but India needs to stop this ad hoc allocation of rights and come up with a bilateral policy that is in the best interest of common Indian folk and not just protect the Indian carriers.


Absolutely, somehow this aspect always gets skipped during any meaningful discussion. I think Jayant Sinha has a point here, as indicated by several news reports.

Air India was basically 'Club Bombay' out of Santa Cruz; then it got converted into a 'neta/babu Jet'. Then comes Jet Airways, whose source of financing has really never been disclosed. Except for Indigo and Spice Jet, most carriers seem to be operating at the whims of few wealthy individuals.

In this scenario, how is 'restricting' ME3 or anyone else helpful?
 
atal17
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:56 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:32 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I'm sorry, I fail to understand how more seats for UAE carriers = good for the common Indian folk? EK has kept India-DXB fares relatively high using O&D to subsidize long haul connecting traffic. Are we agreed on that? India-UAE has a ton of carriers flying the route = competition = good for consumers. Indian carriers really have driven low cost travel between DXB, AUH and India. You have to think of things broader than just one bilateral. If Indian carriers go out of business, competition goes down and the consumer loses. Each new route that is launched (and it can only be launched if the carrier can make some profit), helps keeps fares down. Just having EK fly 5X a day DXB-HYD with no Indian carriers pushes fares UP. By clubbing the agreements together, the excess seats AUH is allocated will see Indian carriers add more capacity to DXB-India. This is where the seats are needed. As long as EK continues to allocate too many seats to their long haul connecting business, Indian carriers will then serve O&D and drive prices down. EK wants more seats in order to help expansion into the US (and Africa, Europe). You are kidding yourself if you think they are interested in lowering India-DXB fares. I missed the concept of allowing EK to fly from say AUH-India. I don't think that should be allowed. UAE's airlines are heavily subsidized. Indian carriers have some right to make a profit. Just the competition between Indian carriers and the one dominant UAE carrier on the route is probably enough to ensure "the common man" gets a good fare.


At no point are Indian carriers going down just because EK launched a flight to some point in India or increased frequencies to any of their existing points. If at all, they're suffering only because of poorer choices that they made out of prestige or egotistic influences. And as we see, just because there are no limits, doesn't mean EK can flood a market with seats and get away with it unscathed (see LAX, SEA, BOS, FLL, MCO reductions). At some point, economics will take care of overcapacity.

EK or any airline operating to and from India has no obligation to ensure yields are high enough for Indian carriers to compete. That is for them to do so, they need to have an aggressive sales team, an excellent route networking team and a management that is efficient enough to churn decisions out quickly and decisively.

So please, spare us that analogy of EK bringing doom upon Indian carriers.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8475
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:34 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I'm sorry, I fail to understand how more seats for UAE carriers = good for the common Indian folk? EK has kept India-DXB fares relatively high using O&D to subsidize long haul connecting traffic. Are we agreed on that? India-UAE has a ton of carriers flying the route = competition = good for consumers. Indian carriers really have driven low cost travel between DXB, AUH and India. You have to think of things broader than just one bilateral. If Indian carriers go out of business, competition goes down and the consumer loses. Each new route that is launched (and it can only be launched if the carrier can make some profit), helps keeps fares down. Just having EK fly 5X a day DXB-HYD with no Indian carriers pushes fares UP. By clubbing the agreements together, the excess seats AUH is allocated will see Indian carriers add more capacity to DXB-India. This is where the seats are needed. As long as EK continues to allocate too many seats to their long haul connecting business, Indian carriers will then serve O&D and drive prices down. EK wants more seats in order to help expansion into the US (and Africa, Europe). You are kidding yourself if you think they are interested in lowering India-DXB fares. I missed the concept of allowing EK to fly from say AUH-India. I don't think that should be allowed. UAE's airlines are heavily subsidized. Indian carriers have some right to make a profit. Just the competition between Indian carriers and the one dominant UAE carrier on the route is probably enough to ensure "the common man" gets a good fare.


Well said Caliguy. But ME3's definition of competition is different. ME3 operating 33 daily frequencies to USA, with ZERO from other side is competitive. US3 complaining about it is protectionist.

I admire Indian carriers in this regard. Even based in worst regulatory environment, they are able to compete with ME3.

Sometimes I think, sitting on $7Billion cash, can't Delta pick ONE non-stop to India and offer cheap fares to drive/bleed ME3. Do it for 1-2 years at a loss to administer their own medicine.

Even if Indian bends more, independent slot manager is not going allot prime slots at DXB.
All posts are just opinions.
 
zionite
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Sometimes I think, sitting on $7Billion cash, can't Delta pick ONE non-stop to India and offer cheap fares to drive/bleed ME3. Do it for 1-2 years at a loss to administer their own medicine.


Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.
 
adi00654
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:24 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
unrave wrote:
I'm not sure this will end the bilateral related woes when only about 14k seats are available in total on the UAE side, with most of the unutilised capacity remaining with Abu Dhabi, who may not be keen on letting Emirates use them. This will only be a stop gap measure until the Indian carriers utilise 80% of the remaining allocation after which we will be back to the drawing board. This has been repeated ad nauseam but India needs to stop this ad hoc allocation of rights and come up with a bilateral policy that is in the best interest of common Indian folk and not just protect the Indian carriers.


I'm sorry, I fail to understand how more seats for UAE carriers = good for the common Indian folk? EK has kept India-DXB fares relatively high using O&D to subsidize long haul connecting traffic. Are we agreed on that? India-UAE has a ton of carriers flying the route = competition = good for consumers. Indian carriers really have driven low cost travel between DXB, AUH and India. You have to think of things broader than just one bilateral. If Indian carriers go out of business, competition goes down and the consumer loses. Each new route that is launched (and it can only be launched if the carrier can make some profit), helps keeps fares down. Just having EK fly 5X a day DXB-HYD with no Indian carriers pushes fares UP. By clubbing the agreements together, the excess seats AUH is allocated will see Indian carriers add more capacity to DXB-India. This is where the seats are needed. As long as EK continues to allocate too many seats to their long haul connecting business, Indian carriers will then serve O&D and drive prices down. EK wants more seats in order to help expansion into the US (and Africa, Europe). You are kidding yourself if you think they are interested in lowering India-DXB fares. I missed the concept of allowing EK to fly from say AUH-India. I don't think that should be allowed. UAE's airlines are heavily subsidized. Indian carriers have some right to make a profit. Just the competition between Indian carriers and the one dominant UAE carrier on the route is probably enough to ensure "the common man" gets a good fare.


Well said and regarding DXB-HYD market,Hyd is one of the solid markets for Middle east destinations and u find a few mere number of Indian carriers.Correcting your point regarding DXB-HYD has 2 Indian operators.
HYD,BLR,MAA has strong O&D for NA,as well as middle East traffic and we see the number of flights operated by them against the few Indian operators .
(Cochin to be precise tops in flights for ME)

EK-3X77W daily DXB-HYD,BLR,MAA
FZ-1x738 daily DXB-HYD,MAA
AI-1X321. Daily DXB-HYD,MAA
6E-1×320 Daily DXB-HYD,BLR,MAA

DXB-HYD-6 Daily,DXB-MAA-6 Daily,DXB-BLR-5 Dialy

Abu Dhabi
EY-2x320,1x321,1x332(twice weekly)instead of A321 daily AUH-HYD.
2X320,1X321 daily. AUH-BLR.
3X320 Daily. AUH-MAA.
9W-1X738 Daily AUH-HYD.

AUH-HYD-4 daily,AUH-MAA-3 daily,AUH-BLR-3 Daily.

Muscat
WY-3x737-900ER Daily. MCT-HYD
WY-2x737-800 Daily. MCT-MAA.MCT-BLR
AI-1x319 Daily .MCT-MAA,Weekly 3 MCT-HYD
6E-1X320 Daily MCT-MAA.

MCT-HYD-3 Daily,3 Weekly,MCT-MAA-4 daily,MCT-BLR-2 Daily.


Jeddah
SV-1x77W Weekly 4.JED-HYD
SV-1X333 Weekly 3.JED-MAA,Weekly 1 JED-BLR
AI-1x747 Weekly 3 JED-HYD


Riyadh
SV-1X77W Weekly 3 RUH-HYD
SV-1X333 Weekly 3 RUH-MAA,Weekly 2 RUH-BLR

Dammam
9W-1x738 daily DMM-HYD.
SV-1x77W Weekly once DMM-HYD.

Kuwait
AI-1x320 Weekly 2. KWI-HYD-MAA
KU-1X332 Weekly 5 KWI-MAA,
KU-1x320 Weekly 5 KWI-BLR.

Doha
QR-1x321 daily. DOH-HYD
QR-1X332 daily DOH-MAA
QR-1x77W daily DOH-BLR


Sharjah
Air arabia-1x320 daily HYD-SHJ,BLR-SHJ,MAA-SHJ.

Bahrain
GF-2×321 daily BAH-HYD,BAH-MAA

Pax list For last quarter Q16, released by dgca Oct-Dec 16

AUH-HYD:50013. HYD-AUH:42026
AUH-BLR:37385. BLR-AUH:31218
AUH-MAA:46534. MAA-AUH:40020
AUH-COK:63431. COK-AUH:64762

Dubai(DXB):

DXB-HYD:130094. HYD-DXB:118138
DXB-BLR:99897. BLR-DXB:91013
DXB-MAA:118871. MAA-DXB:113684
DXB-COK:131731. COK-DXB:137265

DOHA(DOH)

DOH-HYD:15979. HYD-DOH:14472
DOH-BLR:25309. BLR-DOH:21325
DOH-MAA:25412. MAA-DOH:21410
DOH-COK:53972. COK-DOH:54046
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:55 pm

@CaliguyNYC and others: Most of your contention is valid for metro cities of India. But there are dozens of urban centres in India that lack hassle free international connectivity, where a service from one of the ME3 can be a godsend. Middle East carriers have transformed the connectivity of second tier cities in Kerala.

Another great example is Trichy: because the airport was included in the ASEAN bilateral it has grown from having no international connectivity to multiple daily connections to KUL and SIN in the spaces of a few years. The story of Trichy can be repeated in several cities across India if the government formulates a bilateral policy that puts residents' needs ahead of Indian carriers. India should take a leaf out of Australia, where bilaterals usually come with restrictions to the main cities, while the conditions are far more relaxed for secondary cities.

Coimbatore is a bigger and relatively richer market than Kozhikode, but because of non transparent handing out of bilaterals, Kozhikode has much better connectivity than Coimbatore. And for good measure AI does not offer a non stop connection to DEL from CJB, so flying international from CJB usually involves long and cumbersome connections in some Indian airport. Now imagine if one of the ME carriers are allowed to operate here.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:10 pm

zionite wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Sometimes I think, sitting on $7Billion cash, can't Delta pick ONE non-stop to India and offer cheap fares to drive/bleed ME3. Do it for 1-2 years at a loss to administer their own medicine.


Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.


+1. The Indian population what it is in Atlanta should ensure they fill up more than half the plane. I would think. They have good feed in to ATL. If they can leverage a codeshare with 9W on the BOM/DEL side and let desis check in 2 bags, we could have game on with QR & TK. Heck they might even steal some of UA's 1-stops via EWR FWIW...
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:20 pm

Look I'm pro Indian aviation not out of some nationalistic pride but because aviation is a driver of a country's economy. Aviation brings jobs, tourism and business. The more connected a city is, the more business travelers arrive. The ME3 do serve a purpose in that they make it easier for people to get to India. But have they really helped India more than a strong national carrier would? How much more business would go to BLR if it was better connected to key markets in the US? You have to think broader than just my little city in India got a nonstop to DXB or SIN. In general people all over the world prefer flying their own carriers and connecting in their own country. If you misconduct in BOM or DEL you should have several flights to get rebooked on. If you misconnect in AUH you may be out of luck for 10 hours. Also international flight connectivity helps airlines provide higher domestic frequency between cities. Is it better that CJB be connected to DEL/BOM or DXB & SIN? I wish Modi would reform aviation more (lower the stupid fuel tax) and instead tax every pax equally (thus taking away any benefit foreign carriers have). Which country creates an aviation system that handicaps its carriers only and gives free reign to foreign carriers? Let's spend more time trying to make Indian airlines better rather than root for another connection to DOH or KWI or SIN. Look at China and how many cities have nonstop flights to the US (even to NYC). There is no reason BOM and DEL should not be similarly connected to the US. There is a part of me that doesn't care if AI loses money on their US routes. At least they bring something to the table with nonstops (and people are liking the convienience). So to end, I hope India says no to TK's request for more cities in India and clubs the UAE bilaterals into one.
 
adi00654
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:06 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Look I'm pro Indian aviation not out of some nationalistic pride but because aviation is a driver of a country's economy. Aviation brings jobs, tourism and business. The more connected a city is, the more business travelers arrive. The ME3 do serve a purpose in that they make it easier for people to get to India. But have they really helped India more than a strong national carrier would? How much more business would go to BLR if it was better connected to key markets in the US? You have to think broader than just my little city in India got a nonstop to DXB or SIN. In general people all over the world prefer flying their own carriers and connecting in their own country. If you misconduct in BOM or DEL you should have several flights to get rebooked on. If you misconnect in AUH you may be out of luck for 10 hours. Also international flight connectivity helps airlines provide higher domestic frequency between cities. Is it better that CJB be connected to DEL/BOM or DXB & SIN? I wish Modi would reform aviation more (lower the stupid fuel tax) and instead tax every pax equally (thus taking away any benefit foreign carriers have). Which country creates an aviation system that handicaps its carriers only and gives free reign to foreign carriers? Let's spend more time trying to make Indian airlines better rather than root for another connection to DOH or KWI or SIN. Look at China and how many cities have nonstop flights to the US (even to NYC). There is no reason BOM and DEL should not be similarly connected to the US. There is a part of me that doesn't care if AI loses money on their US routes. At least they bring something to the table with nonstops (and people are liking the convienience). So to end, I hope India says no to TK's request for more cities in India and clubs the UAE bilaterals into one.



Exactly China and Japan has connections nonstop to many nonstop flights to the US.
Delhi is now in top 20 for most busiest airport and poised to surpass more figures in coming future and
I also think Air India/9W should try and possibly explore new routes like Boston,Houston.I stay in Boston and there is a good Indian population here...QR is the one most prefered one and Hopefully a 789 would do a good deal on this route for AI owing to their economical figures.

Air India because of less govt intervention and a good CMD ..The airline has started exploring new routes in European sector and much super hit DEL-SFO also competing with ME3 on the route and making EY exit the route and also EK reducing double daily to one(atleast 25-30% due to AI).

IAD is gonna start in July and Hopefully this one also gains popularity and thereby giving a chance to expand more into North America .Hopefully a intense code sharing with UA helps AI much more better .
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:28 pm

unrave wrote:
@CaliguyNYC and others: Most of your contention is valid for metro cities of India. But there are dozens of urban centres in India that lack hassle free international connectivity, where a service from one of the ME3 can be a godsend. Middle East carriers have transformed the connectivity of second tier cities in Kerala.

Another great example is Trichy: because the airport was included in the ASEAN bilateral it has grown from having no international connectivity to multiple daily connections to KUL and SIN in the spaces of a few years. The story of Trichy can be repeated in several cities across India if the government formulates a bilateral policy that puts residents' needs ahead of Indian carriers. India should take a leaf out of Australia, where bilaterals usually come with restrictions to the main cities, while the conditions are far more relaxed for secondary cities.


I agree that the bilateral ASAs should not restrict which cities airlines can fly to/from. However, if that does happen, would EK start serving CJB? I don't think so. They'd rather GOI increase the number of seats so that they can add capacity on the Kerala and metro routes. So that doesn't really address the problem, rather it hurts the yields for the Indian airlines.

Anyway, the separate bilaterals for individual sheikdoms in UAE is a holdover from the days of British control over the area. It archaic, and should be abolished in favor of a unified UAE country bilateral. At least the connecting passengers would get a better deal by forcing EK and EY for vie for their business.
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:48 pm

adi00654 wrote:
Exactly China and Japan has connections nonstop to many nonstop flights to the US.
Delhi is now in top 20 for most busiest airport and poised to surpass more figures in coming future and
I also think Air India/9W should try and possibly explore new routes like Boston,Houston.I stay in Boston and there is a good Indian population here...QR is the one most prefered one and Hopefully a 789 would do a good deal on this route for AI owing to their economical figures.

Air India because of less govt intervention and a good CMD ..The airline has started exploring new routes in European sector and much super hit DEL-SFO also competing with ME3 on the route and making EY exit the route and also EK reducing double daily to one(atleast 25-30% due to AI).

IAD is gonna start in July and Hopefully this one also gains popularity and thereby giving a chance to expand more into North America .Hopefully a intense code sharing with UA helps AI much more better .


China and Japan have much deeper business ties to the US than India. Not only is the number of passengers to both countries much higher than India, the number of passengers willing to pay for premium cabin is also significantly higher. The reason SFO-DEL has been such a success for AI is because there is significant business demand to India from the Bay area, something that is surprisingly low for both the New York and Chicago areas. And these are the areas with the highest concentrations of people of Indian origin. Consequently, as much as I would love AI to start DEL-BOS/ATL/CLT/MIA/IAH/DFW/SEA/YVR, every single of those routes would lose AI massive amounts of money, and in a couple of years, we'll hear the same old story of how poorly managed AI is.

There has to be a critical mass of business and economic ties between an MSA and India for any AI flight to succeed. Only VFR traffic, and that too from cities with less than 200k people of Indian origins (Indians, Indian Americans, etc.) will not make a profitable ULH flight. I am not sure that the DEL-IAD flight will succeed on its own. If however UA does decide to codeshare with AI and offer seamless connections to major cities up and down the eastern seaboard, then it will perhaps break even. It is for this same reason I think AI should not try DEL-LAX, as much as that makes it easier for me personally, because the LA area doesn't have the critical mass of business ties to India to make that kind of flight work.
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:53 pm

zionite wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.


I quite like the fact the DL is aggressive about cutting routes that do not make a profit. It is a business, not a vehicle for nationalistic chest-thumping. Flying unprofitable routes is one of the major reasons why AI has been so unprofitable.
 
zionite
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:36 pm

devmapper wrote:
zionite wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.


I quite like the fact the DL is aggressive about cutting routes that do not make a profit. It is a business, not a vehicle for nationalistic chest-thumping. Flying unprofitable routes is one of the major reasons why AI has been so unprofitable.


If DL feels US-India route is unprofitable, let ME3+TK fly the Indians routes with a stop in between and burn their cash. Stop crying about subsidies. Subsidies are money from their owners / kingdoms - not US government.

There are ways in which the governments around the world burn their money. Governments & citizens love it but the outsiders don't.
India - AI, corruption, statues...
ME3 - EK, QR, EY, highest buildings, stables...
US - Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya...
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm

zionite wrote:
devmapper wrote:
zionite wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.


I quite like the fact the DL is aggressive about cutting routes that do not make a profit. It is a business, not a vehicle for nationalistic chest-thumping. Flying unprofitable routes is one of the major reasons why AI has been so unprofitable.


If DL feels US-India route is unprofitable, let ME3+TK fly the Indians routes with a stop in between and burn their cash. Stop crying about subsidies. Subsidies are money from their owners / kingdoms - not US government.

There are ways in which the governments around the world burn their money. Governments & citizens love it but the outsiders don't.
India - AI, corruption, statues...
ME3 - EK, QR, EY, highest buildings, stables...
US - Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya...


To your first point, DL (and the US3 in general) are actually complaining about the fact that the ME3 do not generally, even with the VFR Indian subcontinent traffic, have profitable operations and are essentially running loss-leading routes, cutting into yields that the US3 might have ben able to make work on ULH non-stop flights to the subcontinent and into south-east Asia. Their contention is that such sustained loss-leading route operations are being somehow subsidized by the respective sheikdoms.

Further discussion on the second point is not appropriate in the Civil Aviation forum.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:55 pm

I agree that nonstops from India to places like SEA would not work but the premise that there is surprisingly low business ties between India and NYC is just not true. The ME3 all run fairly premium heavy configurations into BOM, DEL and partly BLR. BOM routinely get's their best product. Who do you think are filling these seats? India-ME traffic? Maybe a little but those A380/777 J & F seats are primarily US and EU bound pax. SQ and CX have also done well with the premium cabins from India to the US west coast. India is not a premium light market like BKK nor premium heavy like LHR and HKG. Its firmly in the middle (at least BOM & DEL). The ME3 just siphon off way too much traffic from both the big and medium cities in India to allow nonstops to the US to prosper but the traffic (premium and back of the bus) is there. I agree that DL should be more aggressive in India as that's they way you hurt the ME3. I think the current 9W/DL/AF/KL/VS partnership will really hurt the ME3. Once HYD-AMS is launched, DL/9W will be offering the 5 main premium cities in India a one stop shot to most of europe and the US. The VFR crowd going to places like AMD and ATQ will suffer through a two stop if Skyteam people or fly AI/ME3. But that's not the market the drives profitability or helps retain NYC and BOM corporate clients. On nonstops, I only think JFK-BOM should be launched. Atlanta doesn't have enough premium O&D demand. With JFK-BOM you get corporate clients on both ends (its DL to 9W hubs) and a heavy business route.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:50 pm

zionite wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. Delta has good feed to ATL. Fly from ATL to BOM or DEL nonstop. They can at least fill half a plane, make a loss but compete with ME3 instead of crying.


DL did fly ATL-BOM a while back; the flight was then moved to JFK-BOM and then eventually terminated. This was a while back and changing terminal in BOM was not exactly a pleasant experience.

With their new ties, perhaps, these flights may be resurrected. My guess is their data from AMS/CDG/LHR will help them decide what next.

However, DL's main contention is that the ME3 by 'dumping' capacity is suppressing price and hence taking away the marginal business they perhaps could have. They may have a valid point there, but I believe they did not succeed because they did not have good connectivity at both ends of the equation (JFK, BOM).

Success, for ME3, is partly due to their ability to funnel traffic from multiple Indian cities especially the secondary cities. Geography, not subsidy, prevents DL from replicating that. In that aspect, they are better to try and incrementally increase AMS-India cities. BLR and MAA is a goo addition. Perhaps, add the likes fo AMD, HYD, CCU ...
 
subramak1
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:02 am

adi00654 wrote:


Exactly China and Japan has connections nonstop to many nonstop flights to the US.
Delhi is now in top 20 for most busiest airport and poised to surpass more figures in coming future and
I also think Air India/9W should try and possibly explore new routes like Boston,Houston.I stay in Boston and there is a good Indian population here...QR is the one most prefered one and Hopefully a 789 would do a good deal on this route for AI owing to their economical figures.

Air India because of less govt intervention and a good CMD ..The airline has started exploring new routes in European sector and much super hit DEL-SFO also competing with ME3 on the route and making EY exit the route and also EK reducing double daily to one(atleast 25-30% due to AI).

IAD is gonna start in July and Hopefully this one also gains popularity and thereby giving a chance to expand more into North America .Hopefully a intense code sharing with UA helps AI much more better .


Japan and China are bigger economies than India and closer to US geographically. So they have more service to US.

Subu
 
adi00654
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:38 am

First thing AI badly needs a good refurbishing of their seats and product in the 77Ws and 3 77lr...I think they also have put a tender for new seat leather etc in phases...
I think premium economy rows should be added but with AI it's not possible.
The reason many people have a bad opinion about AI..Is obvious of main reason the interior,service etc etc.A good cabin like Qatar,Ek surely will make AI look some better.
The IFE is too slaggy in 77W..
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:46 am

adi00654 wrote:
First thing AI badly needs a good refurbishing of their seats and product in the 77Ws and 3 77lr...I think they also have put a tender for new seat leather etc in phases...
I think premium economy rows should be added but with AI it's not possible.
The reason many people have a bad opinion about AI..Is obvious of main reason the interior,service etc etc.A good cabin like Qatar,Ek surely will make AI look some better.
The IFE is too slaggy in 77W..


AI has been making all the right noises, about introducing premium economy seats and WiFi to its aircraft. Unfortunately, it also has bureaucrats running the airline, with multiple levels of permissions required from the GOI before it can make any moves. I wonder how many levels of bureaucratic approvals does it have to go through for a codeshare agreement. I am sure a refresh of the soft product is on the cards, I am just not sure that the government babus understand the need for a 5-6 year interior refreshment cycle.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20603
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:20 pm

devmapper wrote:
unrave wrote:
@CaliguyNYC and others: Most of your contention is valid for metro cities of India. But there are dozens of urban centres in India that lack hassle free international connectivity, where a service from one of the ME3 can be a godsend. Middle East carriers have transformed the connectivity of second tier cities in Kerala.

Another great example is Trichy: because the airport was included in the ASEAN bilateral it has grown from having no international connectivity to multiple daily connections to KUL and SIN in the spaces of a few years. The story of Trichy can be repeated in several cities across India if the government formulates a bilateral policy that puts residents' needs ahead of Indian carriers. India should take a leaf out of Australia, where bilaterals usually come with restrictions to the main cities, while the conditions are far more relaxed for secondary cities.


I agree that the bilateral ASAs should not restrict which cities airlines can fly to/from. However, if that does happen, would EK start serving CJB? I don't think so. They'd rather GOI increase the number of seats so that they can add capacity on the Kerala and metro routes. So that doesn't really address the problem, rather it hurts the yields for the Indian airlines.

Anyway, the separate bilaterals for individual sheikdoms in UAE is a holdover from the days of British control over the area. It archaic, and should be abolished in favor of a unified UAE country bilateral. At least the connecting passengers would get a better deal by forcing EK and EY for vie for their business.

The issue is the dominant political force in the UAE. Merging the bilaterals offers no advantage to Abu-Dhabi now or for the near term. I agree it would be best for EY, EK, and the Indian carriers to compete. But as other bilaters are maxed out, a merging at this time reduces future growth for EY/9W and dilutes their yeilds.. So Abu-Dhabi should politely listen the the proposals and differ any decisions until, for them, until a better offer for Abu-Dhabi is made.

It is a bilateral. Both sides must agree. No nation may unilaterally change the terms.

India is using up other rights to the UAE. Abu-Dhabi couldn't care less than it is competition. For India, flights to Dubai provide the greatest economic benefit. So there is a high likelihood of the current bilaterals being expanded.

Unless Abu-Dhabi is offered something I am aware of, they have the political power in the UAE to delay the official discussion until there is something on the table for them.

The UAE is a bunch of fueding related city states that had Qatar break away with Abu-Dhabi and Dubai running the show.. But if either disagree, there is no bilateral change.

So unless India offers a dramatic increase, there will be no change. Of course India may revert to a prior bilateral or cancel a bilateral. Since bilaterals include all trade, not just air service agreements, that would be brutal to both sides.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:42 pm

I hear you on AUH not being motivated to merge the agreements. But they are one country. The UAE doesn't have to allow EY's seats to be given to EK if they don't want to. But by merging the bilaterals at least the Indian side can increase seats to DXB. In the end DXB benefits even if its just Indian carriers that increase. DXB needs connecting traffic for EK AND O&D traffic for its own tourism industry. So its still a win. In the end I think India will be happy to just keep things the way they are.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 11163
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon May 01, 2017 3:47 am

India Aviation Thread for May is now open for discussion. Please continue to add your comments there..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361923&p=19511621#p19511621
Forum Moderator

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos