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JannEejit
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Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:58 am

The above Cargolux 747-8 freighter is currently stuck on the ground at PIK (Prestwick) after it's internal load, a helicopter being transported from IAH (Houston) is reported to have leaked over 300 litres of fuel all over the 747's main cargo deck. I've only heard anecdotal evidence so far, suggesting the aircraft may be A: a write off, B: Requiring a ferry flight to Boeing for repair and C:The helo should not have been loaded containing fuel, heads will roll etc.

Photos I've seen on Facebook show the aircraft sitting with all cargo doors/nose open, plus undercarriage doors open and several airport fire appliances in attendance. Anyone know specifically what sort of damage a fuel leak of this sort could do to then internal workings of the 747-8 ?
 
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zeke
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:09 am

It would depend a little on the type of fuel, however 300 litres is not a lot.

AVGAS is a good solvent, jet fuel not so much. I would think that the fuel would let to evaporate and then replace insulation that make have absorbed fuel.
 
WIederling
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:25 am

zeke wrote:
It would depend a little on the type of fuel, however 300 litres is not a lot.

AVGAS is a good solvent, jet fuel not so much. I would think that the fuel would let to evaporate and then replace insulation that make have absorbed fuel.


What type of helo could leak 300l of AVGAS? ( Robinson R44 for example has 112l useable fuel :-)

Good guess that this will be jet fuel.

any images around?
 
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litz
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:29 pm

What would that stuff do to carbon/composite materials, or common aviation honeycombs ?
 
as739x
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:25 pm

I'm not a help guy, but my guess its one of the larger type's used to ferry workers out to oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. This would make sense if coming out of Houston.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:07 am

Helo understood to be Bell 412 N386AL.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:29 am

Why did they not take out the fuel before transporting it?
 
PanHAM
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:17 am

b747400erf wrote:
Why did they not take out the fuel before transporting it?


That's the Million Dollar question. I never shipped Helis but plenty of cars by air. One mandatory check was that all fuel is drained from the tanks. On three steps in the sequence this was obviously not dome. The shipper as well as the freight forwarder have to do the DG checks and tender the Merchandise "ready for carriage" to the Airline, That does not Keep the Airline from doind the third and final DG check, it is mandatory. Unbelievable and scary that such things can still happen.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:28 pm

PanHAM wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Why did they not take out the fuel before transporting it?


That's the Million Dollar question. I never shipped Helis but plenty of cars by air. One mandatory check was that all fuel is drained from the tanks. On three steps in the sequence this was obviously not dome. The shipper as well as the freight forwarder have to do the DG checks and tender the Merchandise "ready for carriage" to the Airline, That does not Keep the Airline from doind the third and final DG check, it is mandatory. Unbelievable and scary that such things can still happen.


Please explain what a "DG" check is, or what DG stands for.

Thank you.
 
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zeke
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:36 pm

Dangerous Goods
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
zeke wrote:

any images around?


A friend in the area took these on his phone...

Image
Image
Image
 
luftaom
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:14 pm

More a tech ops question but this seems kind of apt - I assume that there isn't a button in the cockpit to open the gear doors when you are on the ground and that in order to open them someone with a spanner / ratchet has to physically open them. Is that right?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:48 pm

JannEejit wrote:
. I've only heard anecdotal evidence so far, suggesting the aircraft may be A: a write off, B: Requiring a ferry flight to Boeing for repair and C:The helo should not have been loaded containing fuel, heads will roll etc.

Photos I've seen on Facebook show the aircraft sitting with all cargo doors/nose open, plus undercarriage doors open and several airport fire appliances in attendance. Anyone know specifically what sort of damage a fuel leak of this sort could do to then internal workings of the 747-8 ?


Option A doesn't sound likely. The electrical wiring is probably most susceptible to being soaked in fuel. Wiring may need to be changed. Depending on where the fuel was leaked, the air conditioning ducts and even packs might require thorough cleaning or replacement. Insulation blankets may need to be changed. None of that is a write off level event.

Option B also is not likely. When Boeing gets involved in a massive repair, they send their own mechanics, tools and equipment to the airplane. The airplane does not get ferried to Boeing for repairs.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:56 pm

luftaom wrote:
More a tech ops question but this seems kind of apt - I assume that there isn't a button in the cockpit to open the gear doors when you are on the ground and that in order to open them someone with a spanner / ratchet has to physically open them. Is that right?


You open them from inside the wheel well. There are handles for the body gear and wing gear. Only some of the doors close when on the ground so you can access the handles,

I believe that you can do it from the flight deck by using alternate extension on the gear, but that is not a recommended maintenance practice and can cause damage.
 
Max Q
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:45 am

Anyone know what the large blue object at the front of the cargo deck and smaller blue objects adjacent to the gear wells are ?
 
b747400erf
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:10 am

Max Q wrote:
Anyone know what the large blue object at the front of the cargo deck and smaller blue objects adjacent to the gear wells are ?

Blue tarp on the main deck and small rubbish barrels probably to collect dripping fuel.
 
69bug
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:21 am

Aircraft are quite tolerant of fuel leaks in side the pressure vessel.

I had a 747-400 with a leak at the tailtank and the whole area under the 'bulk' compartment (hold 5) was awash with jet fuel. The tail-tank was made inop and the fuel line capped. The water- truck was called in and water was pumped into the underfloor 'bilge' At first the fluid which came out the 'drains' had heavy fuel smell but this eventually cleared until only water was coming out. Aircraft was then dispatched back to base.

Admittedly the volume of fuel was lesser but if the floor drains are kept clean fluids will usually find its way out of the aircraft. Its when these are not kept clear that you have issues.

The next time you fly, look on the floor near the entry door. On both sides you will see the drains, usually circular with a fine mesh. This lead to drip-pans and eventually to a little faired-in hole on the underside of the airplane. Aircraft will be operated in all sorts of weather and there are some safeguards built in.

I've been on freighters where a colossal amount of water collects on the plastic sheeting covering the pallets, especially if the loads are not packed tightly. If the ramp-agent is diligent he would have caught this and reduced the amount of water 'pooling'. The better stations (and airlines) add another plastic sheet over the cargo net, this is removed just before the pallet is brought into the aircraft.

sorry if I'm a bit off-track here!

bug
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:40 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
. I've only heard anecdotal evidence so far, suggesting the aircraft may be A: a write off, B: Requiring a ferry flight to Boeing for repair and C:The helo should not have been loaded containing fuel, heads will roll etc.

Photos I've seen on Facebook show the aircraft sitting with all cargo doors/nose open, plus undercarriage doors open and several airport fire appliances in attendance. Anyone know specifically what sort of damage a fuel leak of this sort could do to then internal workings of the 747-8 ?


Option A doesn't sound likely. The electrical wiring is probably most susceptible to being soaked in fuel. Wiring may need to be changed. Depending on where the fuel was leaked, the air conditioning ducts and even packs might require thorough cleaning or replacement. Insulation blankets may need to be changed. None of that is a write off level event.


Re-wiring is super expensive. In addition, the salvage value of this 748F is very high as may important parts, especially the engines were not damaged.
Rather then the expensive repaire works, the insuraner may be happy to write it off and part it out for $$$; Cargolux is happy to get the compensation if they have too many excessive capacity;
Boeing will be happy as well if Cargolux ordered another 748F as replacement.

I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:27 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
. I've only heard anecdotal evidence so far, suggesting the aircraft may be A: a write off, B: Requiring a ferry flight to Boeing for repair and C:The helo should not have been loaded containing fuel, heads will roll etc.

Photos I've seen on Facebook show the aircraft sitting with all cargo doors/nose open, plus undercarriage doors open and several airport fire appliances in attendance. Anyone know specifically what sort of damage a fuel leak of this sort could do to then internal workings of the 747-8 ?


Option A doesn't sound likely. The electrical wiring is probably most susceptible to being soaked in fuel. Wiring may need to be changed. Depending on where the fuel was leaked, the air conditioning ducts and even packs might require thorough cleaning or replacement. Insulation blankets may need to be changed. None of that is a write off level event.


Re-wiring is super expensive. In addition, the salvage value of this 748F is very high as may important parts, especially the engines were not damaged.
Rather then the expensive repaire works, the insuraner may be happy to write it off and part it out for $$$; Cargolux is happy to get the compensation if they have too many excessive capacity;
Boeing will be happy as well if Cargolux ordered another 748F as replacement.

I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.


Cargolux has parked their -400BCF and sold older -400F's I doubt they have capacity problems.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:49 am

b747400erf wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

Option A doesn't sound likely. The electrical wiring is probably most susceptible to being soaked in fuel. Wiring may need to be changed. Depending on where the fuel was leaked, the air conditioning ducts and even packs might require thorough cleaning or replacement. Insulation blankets may need to be changed. None of that is a write off level event.


Re-wiring is super expensive. In addition, the salvage value of this 748F is very high as may important parts, especially the engines were not damaged.
Rather then the expensive repaire works, the insuraner may be happy to write it off and part it out for $$$; Cargolux is happy to get the compensation if they have too many excessive capacity;
Boeing will be happy as well if Cargolux ordered another 748F as replacement.

I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.


Cargolux has parked their -400BCF and sold older -400F's I doubt they have capacity problems.


I means they may have too many capaccity on hand so that they are more willing to get compensation from insurance and dump that excessive 748F
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:11 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
. I've only heard anecdotal evidence so far, suggesting the aircraft may be A: a write off, B: Requiring a ferry flight to Boeing for repair and C:The helo should not have been loaded containing fuel, heads will roll etc.

Photos I've seen on Facebook show the aircraft sitting with all cargo doors/nose open, plus undercarriage doors open and several airport fire appliances in attendance. Anyone know specifically what sort of damage a fuel leak of this sort could do to then internal workings of the 747-8 ?


Option A doesn't sound likely. The electrical wiring is probably most susceptible to being soaked in fuel. Wiring may need to be changed. Depending on where the fuel was leaked, the air conditioning ducts and even packs might require thorough cleaning or replacement. Insulation blankets may need to be changed. None of that is a write off level event.


Re-wiring is super expensive. In addition, the salvage value of this 748F is very high as may important parts, especially the engines were not damaged.
Rather then the expensive repaire works, the insuraner may be happy to write it off and part it out for $$$; Cargolux is happy to get the compensation if they have too many excessive capacity;
Boeing will be happy as well if Cargolux ordered another 748F as replacement.

I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.


It won't cost over 100 million to repair wiring and clean out the air conditioning system. Fuel is not the same as the toxic chemical spill that happened on the Malaysia plane. I believe that had some chemicals involved that destroyed the airplane structure. I think the chance of a write off for a fuel spil are almost zero.
 
celestar345
Posts: 58
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:39 am

69bug wrote:
Aircraft are quite tolerant of fuel leaks in side the pressure vessel.

I had a 747-400 with a leak at the tailtank and the whole area under the 'bulk' compartment (hold 5) was awash with jet fuel. The tail-tank was made inop and the fuel line capped. The water- truck was called in and water was pumped into the underfloor 'bilge' At first the fluid which came out the 'drains' had heavy fuel smell but this eventually cleared until only water was coming out. Aircraft was then dispatched back to base.

Admittedly the volume of fuel was lesser but if the floor drains are kept clean fluids will usually find its way out of the aircraft. Its when these are not kept clear that you have issues.

The next time you fly, look on the floor near the entry door. On both sides you will see the drains, usually circular with a fine mesh. This lead to drip-pans and eventually to a little faired-in hole on the underside of the airplane. Aircraft will be operated in all sorts of weather and there are some safeguards built in.

I've been on freighters where a colossal amount of water collects on the plastic sheeting covering the pallets, especially if the loads are not packed tightly. If the ramp-agent is diligent he would have caught this and reduced the amount of water 'pooling'. The better stations (and airlines) add another plastic sheet over the cargo net, this is removed just before the pallet is brought into the aircraft.

sorry if I'm a bit off-track here!

bug


Modern airliners are designed with mishaps in mind- on one nightshift when I got into a 777 main equipment bay I was shocked to see it was raining inside.... turns out someone forgot to close the L2 door and the aircraft sat under tropical downpour for more than 3 hours before I got there. Gallons of water was collected above the cargo ceiling liner all the way to the MEC. Removed the tape let the water fall to the belly and move in dehumidifiers to dry up the cabin carpet. Best thing was, the aircraft powers up without missing a bit.

Dripshields are there for a reason.....

So for the -8, guess it would be a big cleanup, inspection then back to service, of course the bill would go to......
 
69bug
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:44 am

I also remember a 747 F belonging to LH which was on a charter to carry a whhe whale was in an open top container and during take-off a lot of water spilled over. The airplane returned and spent a few days and then departed, No real issue.

Bug
 
YVRLTN
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:27 am

[/quote]of course the bill would go to......[/quote] Normally the shipper..... everything gets thrown back on the shipper as it is ultimately their responsibility. That being said, there is responsibility with all parties to make sure the shipper conforms to all formalities, but in reality for something like a heli there is little the forwarder or CV in this case can do, other than remind the shipper of their responsibilities and have a record of having done so.

According to the Bell website, fuel capacity is 1251l, so tank was at least 1/4 full. I dont know how the heli was presented, but particularly if it was wrapped there is little anyone can do to physically check the tanks, and how do you do that anyway without getting a dipstick or whatever and physically checking it. Doubt its like a C172. I would imagine you would have to power it up and check the fuel gauges. CV or a forwarder or ground handler are not qualified to do that. One would expect a heli operator to be more than familiar with the requirements for shipping and done this prior to release. I suspect their was some complacency and as the shipper was probably very experienced in this, it was assumed that as the paper trail was good all was in conformity. I also suspect it has happened many times before and this is the first time it leaked.

I have no idea what a Bell 412 tanks are like, but sometimes it is very hard to drain tanks and all you can do is just burn it off with the motors running. Im a forwarder, done it myself on cars, a siphon only takes off so much.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:07 am

All three parties have screwed up, the shipper, the ffreight forwarder and the carrier's handling Agent.. All three will pay up for liability and the FAA may possibly fine them as well.
As a freight forwarder I have to make sure that cargo is tendered "ready for carriage". In case of cars, Motor bikes, helis, that includes checking that tanks are drained and batteries cut-off and the DG certificate is properly filled out and the cargo properly labeled.. No excuses.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:44 am

I haven't seen any recent pics but was told that the Bell is currently sitting on the tarmac adjacent to the 748, wrapped up in it's protective transit covers. I also believe that a 'steam cleaning' procedure is underway and that some flooring needs replaced. The plan is to use the Chevron Aviation hangar at PIK for repairs, how true or not that is I don't know. I might get along for a look myself, this week.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:26 pm

Further update: LX-VCF, departed Prestwick on Monday lunchtime (11th April) and flew to Luxembourg at no higher than 9000 feet and at relatively low speed, doing a 'dog leg' round the northern London airspace in the process. I'll assume they closed all the doors and hatches first... ;-)

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... f/#d06e405
 
bhxdtw
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:01 pm

I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.[/quote]

That was a shipment of mercury, and I think it sat for a while before they figured out what to do with it... Obviously super toxic and corrosive I guess?
 
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Polot
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Re: Cargolux LX-VCF grounded by helicopter load fuel leak.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:19 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
I remember there was a brand new 330F from MH(?) has been written off after a chemical leak in the cargo hold.

That was a shipment of mercury, and I think it sat for a while before they figured out what to do with it... Obviously super toxic and corrosive I guess?

It was a A330-300 carrying corrosive oxalyl chloride from a Chinese company that was falsely labeled as (much more benign) hydroxyquinoline.

The plane was 6 years old at the time..

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