According to El Pais of Madrid, Norwegian announced today that it has requested authority to fly between Buenos Aires and London, Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Barcelona. Additionally the airline confirmed it will be basing 10 737-800 in Argentina with which to launch domestic services in the country, Bjorn Kjos, the airline's CEO said that the request has been lodged with Argentina's ANAC.

Kjos reckons the authority to fly between Buenos Aires and Barcelona will be the most complex to achieve as the current bilateral between the two countries only allows airlines from Argentina and Spain to operate flights. Perhaps Norwegian will use its Argentinian AOC (it is in the process of getting one, it has already established a subsidiary there) for the route.

On related news, the UK and Argentina signed a new bilateral two weeks ago that increases the number of frequencies between the to countries. The UK part proposed Norwegian as the designated UK carrier for these new frequencies and the proposal was met with approval from the Argentinian side so I expect we will see LGW-EZE flights on Norwegian before we see BCN-EZE service.

In any case, the launch of LEVEL by IAG has put an additional fire under Mr Kjos's chair. The BCN-EZE route, flown solely by AR for years, is about to get red hot.

Source: http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2017/04/04/ ... 67046.html

If only one airline per country is permitted, AR is already on the EZE-BCN route.

Wow maybe Norwegian should get a new name as they're hardly flying from only norway!!

SeaDoo wrote:

If only one airline per country is permitted, AR is already on the EZE-BCN route.

It is airlines from both countries, not just one airline. You already have IB and UX operating EZE-MAD on the Spanish side.

dcajet wrote:

SeaDoo wrote:

If only one airline per country is permitted, AR is already on the EZE-BCN route.

It is airlines from both countries, not just one airline. You already have IB and UX operating EZE-MAD on the Spanish side.

And had AR and Southern Wind from the Argentinian side in tbe 2000s. As well as Air Madrid, Air Comet and otber dubious outfits from the Spanish side. So it is obviously not limited to even 2 airlines from each of the countries.

Croden wrote:

Wow maybe Norwegian should get a new name as they're hardly flying from only norway!!

Please, not this again. This comes up in every thread about Norwegian as soon as it's overseas from Ireland, UK or whatever. The brand name is Norwegian. Get over it.

dcajet wrote:

In any case, the launch of LEVEL by IAG has put an additional fire under Mr Kjos's chair. The BCN-EZE route, flown solely by AR for years, is about to get red hot.

I think the chair that just got a lot hotter is that of the AR CEO, with all that union mess that he has to handle and still try to compete. EZE-BCN is marginal at best even when AR is having a monopoly on the route. With Level and Norwegian coming online, I think AR better look for other options to fly that A330 to.

All of AR's routes are probably marginal because of AR's disfunctionality but these routes ( particularly BCN > EZE ) are perfect for next generation long haul stimulation .. ...

Great news all round

MalevTU134 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

In any case, the launch of LEVEL by IAG has put an additional fire under Mr Kjos's chair. The BCN-EZE route, flown solely by AR for years, is about to get red hot.

I think the chair that just got a lot hotter is that of the AR CEO, with all that union mess that he has to handle and still try to compete. EZE-BCN is marginal at best even when AR is having a monopoly on the route. With Level and Norwegian coming online, I think AR better look for other options to fly that A330 to.

Doubtless regarding AR's CEO. But actually, of all the routes to Europe, BCN is the one that performs best for AR; MAD is back in the black, FCO is the one that is still marginal, hence why the airline is switching to the A330 and going daily to better compete with AZ. (sigh on the latter....). BCN Is operated with the A340 and there are no plans this year or next to put the 330 on this route.

I also think that LEVEL and eventually Norwegian, while chipping away some of AR's traffic, will stimulate a whole new market not only from Argentina or Spain that for purely cost reasons do not travel over the pond yet. I would not write off AR yet. There is a market for a full service, alliance affiliated carrier on the route. The market between Argentina and Spain is huge and can only go up from here. In fact, until not that long ago, EZE was Iberia's most profitable long haul route, followed by MEX and JFK.

Wasn't it the other way around? Didn't Norwegian already plan this route long before and wasn't Level a reaction from IAG in response to the Norwegian plans?

According to La Vanguardia (spanish newspaper) says that Norwegian Argentina aside of 10 737 could have some 787 based in Argentina, this is due that both governments only allows national airlines to fly routes between Spain and Argentina. So a DY 787 with argentinian AOC could be solve this problem.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/20170405/421465052511/bjorn-kjos-norwegian-competencia-barcelona.html

It is funny because a few weeks ago there were Aerolineas adds in the metro in Madrid that said sth like 'Aerolineas is the only airline that connects Buenos Aires with Madrid and Barcelona" (obviously they were trying to "confuse" the passengers making them think that they were the only one flying MAD-EZE - and not only BCN-EZE which is quite irrelevant for the MAD-origin passenger -)

And now 3 carriers serving that route

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Wasn't it the other way around? Didn't Norwegian already plan this route long before and wasn't Level a reaction from IAG in response to the Norwegian plans?

Indeed. But IAG moved the times forward as they already have set a date to begin operations so, naturally, Norwegian is reacting here to that announcement. Norwegian also is dealing with setting up a local airline in Argentina.

SCQ83 wrote:

It is funny because a few weeks ago there were Aerolineas adds in the metro in Madrid that said sth like 'Aerolineas is the only airline that connects Buenos Aires with Madrid and Barcelona" (obviously they were trying to "confuse" the passengers making them think that they were the only one flying MAD-EZE - and not only BCN-EZE which is quite irrelevant for the MAD-origin passenger -)

And now 3 carriers serving that route

Well, they were not stating anything that is not a fact, so I would not assume they were out to confuse people. But, as a marketing claim, it is totally irrelevant.

dcajet wrote:

[Well, they were not stating anything that is not a fact, so I would not assume they were out to confuse people. But, as a marketing claim, it is totally irrelevant.

Umm well, I think so.

They stated that they are the only airline flying non-stop between BsAs and both Madrid AND Barcelona. Which is true until Level starts BCN-EZE. Of course passengers will not "think twice about it" and remind Aerolineas - ONLY CARRIER - Madrid Buenos Aires.

However how relevant is for someone in Madrid that Aerolineas is the only airline flying BCN-EZE when MAD has already 3 carriers (UX, IB, Aerolineas)?

dcajet wrote:

According to El Pais of Madrid, Norwegian announced today that it has requested authority to fly between Buenos Aires and London, Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Barcelona.

OSL-EZE and ARN-EZE are some very long flights.

rebr wrote:

dcajet wrote:

According to El Pais of Madrid, Norwegian announced today that it has requested authority to fly between Buenos Aires and London, Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Barcelona.

OSL-EZE and ARN-EZE are some very long flights.

You're right, but the 787 is some very capable aircraft.

This search for El Dorado in Argentina is fun to watch.

rebr wrote:

dcajet wrote:

According to El Pais of Madrid, Norwegian announced today that it has requested authority to fly between Buenos Aires and London, Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Barcelona.

OSL-EZE and ARN-EZE are some very long flights.

I reckon if saying that they plan to operate OSL and ARN (which no one else would ever operate) is a way to get those rights. Like "OK we are going to compete with AR in BCN but we are also opening two new major markets that would brings well-off tourists to Argentina")

C010T3 wrote:

This search for El Dorado in Argentina is fun to watch.

I feel there is a lot of untapped tourism potential in Argentina. Travelling from Europe to Argentina can be very expensive (basically b/c of lack of competition); easily twice as expensive as the US or SE Asia and similar prices to Australia/NZ. So when your Spanish or German tourist sees Bangkok 500 EUR with EK and Buenos Aires 1000 EUR with AR, for many people it is an easy choice. Probably one of the most expensive places to fly to from Europe (if you don't consider remote Pacific Islands and the likes).

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Wasn't it the other way around? Didn't Norwegian already plan this route long before and wasn't Level a reaction from IAG in response to the Norwegian plans?

Yes, I also believe so. DY flying within/from Argentina is already "old" news. LEVEL is actually a response to DY aggressive growth strategy on multiple levels/sides of the pond.

I think it's business as well that is the driver for these new route proposals. South America in general is starting to move upwards again, and that means more business opportunities from both ends of the routes. If DY and Level want to sell the front cabin that's important, as is high value freight.

Putting a lower fare alternative on the route makes it easier for businesses to get out and set up deals in new markets. This definitely applies to smaller concerns seeking export sales.

Let us hope that one of these 737 connects to santiago Chile

word is that DY will fly into BUE, unconfirmed as of yet...

C010T3 wrote:

This search for El Dorado in Argentina is fun to watch.

Sour grapes, have you met C010T3? Didn't think so; you two have fun.

Sigh...

olle wrote:

Let us hope that one of these 737 connects to santiago Chile

I am certain we will see Norwegian fly to Chile from Argentina; they'd be nuts no to do so at a time when traffic between the two countries is booming. BUE (both AEP and EZE) is the #1 international destination from SCL; from BUE it is #2 behind GRU.

Also, when DY first announced their intention to fly long haul to South America, SCL was mentioned as a possible destination.

SCQ83 wrote:

I reckon if saying that they plan to operate OSL and ARN (which no one else would ever operate)

Time to dust off those old timetables... Actually, while not a same plane service, good old SAS sold ARN and OSL as a direct service from deep South America back in the 60s, 70s and part of the 80s.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... 714-06.jpg

dcajet wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

I reckon if saying that they plan to operate OSL and ARN (which no one else would ever operate)

Time to dust off those old timetables... Actually, while not a same plane service, good old SAS sold ARN and OSL as a direct service from deep South America back in the 60s, 70s and part of the 80s.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... 714-06.jpg

I fly frequent ARN - Chile, and when i change in for example Marid half the airplane comes from Scandinavia. Many Chilean people lives in Scandinavia.

olle wrote:

I fly frequent ARN - Chile, and when i change in for example Marid half the airplane comes from Scandinavia. Many Chilean people lives in Scandinavia.

I know that, but we also know that not in a million years SAS, LATAM or Aerolíneas will fly from Scandinavia to Chile/Argentina. With Norwegian that might be possible.

olle wrote:

dcajet wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

I reckon if saying that they plan to operate OSL and ARN (which no one else would ever operate)

Time to dust off those old timetables... Actually, while not a same plane service, good old SAS sold ARN and OSL as a direct service from deep South America back in the 60s, 70s and part of the 80s.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... 714-06.jpg

I fly frequent ARN - Chile, and when i change in for example Marid half the airplane comes from Scandinavia. Many Chilean people lives in Scandinavia.

Yes a certain amount of Chileans fled to Norway / Scandinavia to get away from the Augusto Pinochet regime.

Norwegian announced a USD 4.6 bn investment in Argentina, including 70 aircraft (50 x 737 and 20 x 787), generating 3,000-3,500 direct and some 55,000 indirect jobs. They say the proposed plan will boost Argentinian GDP by 1.5-2%.
They apply for a total of 146 routes, local, regional and longhaul. 4 operating bases are planned: EZE, AEP, COR, MDZ

Even if only half of this becomes reality, this is great news.



http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2006111-norw ... 0-millones

MalevTU134 wrote:

Norwegian announced a USD 4.6 bn investment in Argentina, including 70 aircraft (50 x 737 and 20 x 787), generating 3,000-3,500 direct and some 55,000 indirect jobs. They say the proposed plan will boost Argentinian GDP by 1.5-2%.
They apply for a total of 146 routes, local, regional and longhaul. 4 operating bases are planned: EZE, AEP, COR, MDZ

Even if only half of this becomes reality, this is great news.



http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2006111-norw ... 0-millones

Doubt very much that they are gonna use 20 Boeing 787 in / to the Argentinian / South American market

Mortyman wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Norwegian announced a USD 4.6 bn investment in Argentina, including 70 aircraft (50 x 737 and 20 x 787), generating 3,000-3,500 direct and some 55,000 indirect jobs. They say the proposed plan will boost Argentinian GDP by 1.5-2%.
They apply for a total of 146 routes, local, regional and longhaul. 4 operating bases are planned: EZE, AEP, COR, MDZ

Even if only half of this becomes reality, this is great news.



http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2006111-norw ... 0-millones

Doubt very much that they are gonna use 20 Boeing 787 in / to the Argentinian / South American market

Well, these plans are to be implemented in the next 8 years. It's not exactly for this summer....

Amazing news.....Norwegian launch the Argentina operation.....70 planes in ten years for domestic and international operation...in total 146 routes.
The biggest aviation mark in Argentina history.


http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2006111-norw ... 0-millones

We should probably wait until they reach that point before declaring them the biggest aviation mark in Argentina history.

Sounds like a big blah blah to me...

As much as they are indeed 'growers' and offer amazing choice at fantastic prices, etc etc, I just wouldn't really bank on them becoming so big so fast in a market they have no knowledge of... Let's wait a bit before building our hopes too high...

I just don't understand what market they could possibly tap into? It's not like Argentina is at the crossroads of anything.

Doubt very much that they are gonna use 20 Boeing 787's for the Argentinian / South America market

What is the reason for all the immediate "No chance" "Wont happen"? Are they not running a very successful operation across the Atlantic and across Europe?
Within South America + South America to else where is a pretty large market, there are only a few players, seems like a chance for disruption.

Off topic, but I would not be surprised to see them tap into the Asian/Pacific Rim market sooner than later. Both within the region but also to EU and North America.

airzona11 wrote:

What is the reason for all the immediate "No chance" "Wont happen"? Are they not running a very successful operation across the Atlantic and across Europe?
Within South America + South America to else where is a pretty large market, there are only a few players, seems like a chance for disruption.

Off topic, but I would not be surprised to see them tap into the Asian/Pacific Rim market sooner than later. Both within the region but also to EU and North America.

20 Dreamliners is alot. They don't even have that for the USA wich is a much larger market. They must have plans for buying more Dreamliners it seems ...

Mortyman wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

What is the reason for all the immediate "No chance" "Wont happen"? Are they not running a very successful operation across the Atlantic and across Europe?
Within South America + South America to else where is a pretty large market, there are only a few players, seems like a chance for disruption.

Off topic, but I would not be surprised to see them tap into the Asian/Pacific Rim market sooner than later. Both within the region but also to EU and North America.

20 Dreamliners is alot. They don't even have that for the USA wich is a much larger market. They must have plans for buying more Dreamliners it seems ...

Agree that it is, but is 20 over 10 years that pie in the sky? I guess my comment was more to the sentiment that the first 5 posts in the thread all dismissed this as saying no chance. None provided context like you did and it was humorous to read. Who would have thought 5 years ago they would have opening up routes across the US. The same people dismissing them are in the same camp that would say "BA will never have to react or stoop down to their level and compete.." Yet here they are.

The presentation of 680 pages from low cost airline Norwegian Air Shuttle that reached the National Civil Aviation Administration (ANAC) weighed more than usual. Inside it contained the largest investment proposal ever made by a company of its kind in the country: the Norwegian company plans to spend US$ 4.3 billion over the next five to eight years.

But not only that. As announced to La Nacion from Spain by Alfons Claver, spokeperson for Norwegian, the presentation made today before the ANAC includes the request for 146 routes, in the domestic, regional and intercontinental markets. "With this we hope to create between 3000 and 3500 direct jobs in the country," said the spokesperson.

According to a source very close to the operation, the Scandinavian firm would be the only one of all the low cost airlines that tries to operate in the Argentinian market that is able to fly to Europe and the United States. "What is missing now is that the ANAC approves it, which I suppose will be in May, and that the government will call the hearing. Those are the remaining requirements for the operation to be completed," the source said.

The plan also includes the operation of 70 aircraft in the country (50 Boeing 737, short range, and 20 Boeing 787, long range). "Norwegian has with what to cover that demand because two years ago it ordered the largest aircraft order in history for a European airline and has on hold 250 Boeing aircraft in production," Claver said.

Of course, not all of these planes will arrive the first year. According to the schedule provided by the company, from the day the operations start, there will be six aircraft in Argentina, all of them short range and by the end of the year we would be looking at about 10 aircraft. Twelve months after the first flight, there will be 15 aircraft (11 short range and 4 long range), and 30 months later there will be 35 (25 short range and 10 long).

Between the fifth and eighth year of operations, the Scandinavian company would already have 70 aircraft (50 short and medium range and 20 long range). "With this we would be able to operate the 146 routes and carry 18.2 million passengers each year to about 90 destinations, distributed in 25 countries," said Claver.

Norwegian flights for November will be able to take off from Gatwick Airport (London) and connect with Buenos Aires, from where the distribution will be done with their home network. "Thus, there will be a domestic airline, Norwegian Air Argentina, which presented the papers, which will be able to fly domestic and international long-haul flights, which makes the network more efficient and solid," the source explained.

"This plan is not limited just to Buenos Aires, but we would have four operational bases: Ezeiza, Aeroparque, Córdoba and Mendoza, and on these bases, the planes and their crews will stay overnight and light maintenance will be done," Claver said.

While the direct jobs generated by the plan are between 3000 and 3500 (between pilots, flight attendants and technicians), the company believes that indirect employment would add between 55,000 to 60,000 jobs. According to Norwegian, the proposal will increase the Argentine GDP per year by 1.5-2% from the current level, depending on GDP growth in the coming years.

The US$4.3 billion that Norwegian plans to invest in the country have a strong case: as explained in the sector, there is a lot of room for growth, without affecting Aerolíneas Argentinas and LATAM. "Some say the current market can double, but I say that with the right measures, it can triple," the source said.

The news for potential passengers are also good, as it is expected that the new local ULCC will offer fares that will be 40% lower than those currently offered by the two main airlines, Aerolineas/Austral and LATAM.

Translated from: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2006111-norw ... 0-millones

So they are going to create low paying jobs for a bunch of people that may end up costing people making a good salary their jobs. Nice.

DDR wrote:

So they are going to create low paying jobs for a bunch of people that may end up costing people making a good salary their jobs. Nice.

Those great salaries at AR, which has been unable to ever turn a profit? Or at LA, whose monopolistic pricing has consistently made travel unaffordable for the majority of South Americans?

The last major private airline in Argentina (owned by Argentinian interests) lasted 27 years in LAPA. However, with a new conservative government embracing competition, this has the power to not only lead to cheaper airfares, but to also show Aerolineas Argentinas what needs to be done, especially if Mauricio Macri is interested in re-privatizing the national airline, or perhaps considering a codeshare with Norwegian down the line as he's welcoming them with open arms.

That said, expansion to Brazil might be harder as Brazil may not have room for a third LCC, and each of them already partners with a legacy carrier (Azul with TAP and United, and GOL with Delta). I could see Norwegian flying to Miami and New York from EZE down the line...taking over an AR route to New York in what could permit Norwegian to do a rotation of LGW-JFK-EZE-BCN and vice versa (the only extended sitting time would be to Argentina---the morning arrival from Buenos Aires could then do the late morning run (arriving near midnight) to Gatwick.

No matter how much all these new entrants to Argentina and the Macri administration keep saying there is room for AR and the lot, it remains to be seen if the status quo can be maintained. I personally think that in the long run AR will be privatized at some point or absorbed by/merged with other airline. For the time being, to say so openly would be suicidal for the new entrants or the government. Time will tell - it is swim or sink time for AR.

At this stage, this is just a proposal. They have to get approval. Nothing more than PR at this stage.

dcajet wrote:

No matter how much all these new entrants to Argentina and the Macri administration keep saying there is room for AR and the lot, it remains to be seen if the status quo can be maintained. I personally think that in the long run AR will be privatized at some point or absorbed by/merged with other airline. For the time being, to say so openly would be suicidal for the new entrants or the government. Time will tell - it is swim or sink time for AR.

Reading the comments in La Nación is very interesting.

Most readers (even those pro-Macri, since 99% of comments are a battle between "Peronistas" and "Macristas") are very sceptical. However Argentina is probably the market in the world with more potential for low-cost. Low-cost has expanded pretty much everywhere (now even Russia, India, China or Brazil). Most places where low-cost has not really worked (like Africa other than ZA and the Maghreb) have proven to be not ready yet.

But Argentina has no low cost competition. A middle income 40 million country. Bad road and rail service (look at the prices of long-haul buses in Argentina!, a true monopoly). Good distances for planes. And a big tourism potential both regionally (Brazil or Chile) and from Europe/US.

Buenos Aires airport system had only 20 million passengers in 2016 for a metropolitan area of 12 million with bad connectivity by road/train to pretty much everywhere.

Mortyman wrote:

Doubt very much that they are gonna use 20 Boeing 787 in / to the Argentinian / South American market

I don't think the plan is to use 20 Boeing 787 to fly between Argentina and Europe. The news article mentions destinations in 25 countries. I don't think all those countries will be European.

These aircraft will be operated by Norwegian Air Argentina (NAA), an Argentinian airline. I can envision a future where some of these aircraft will connect Buenos Aires with US cities and many other cities in countries where Argentina has bilateral agreements, thus allowing flights operated by the Argentinian company.

reidar76 wrote:

Mortyman wrote:

I don't think the plan is to use 20 Boeing 787 to fly between Argentina and Europe. The news article mentions destinations in 25 countries. I don't think all those countries will be European..

They might fly to Australia and New Zealand.

A new Kangaroo route... Europe-Argentina-New Zealand.

MAD-AKL via EZE or DOH is roughly the same distance. Australia is a different matter though, much shorter via the ME.

In a new press interview today, Norwegian said that from Argentina they expect to fly to a total of 90 destinations (domestic and international) in 25 countries (as per the routes request already lodged with Argentina's ANAC). Long distance flights are to be flown mostly by Norwegian Argentina. Branding, as expected, will not change and other than the LV- registry, everything will remain the same, branding and livery wise.

http://www.aviacionline.com/2017/04/nor ... 25-paises/

SCQ83 wrote:

reidar76 wrote:

Mortyman wrote:

I don't think the plan is to use 20 Boeing 787 to fly between Argentina and Europe. The news article mentions destinations in 25 countries. I don't think all those countries will be European..

They might fly to Australia and New Zealand.

A new Kangaroo route... Europe-Argentina-New Zealand.

MAD-AKL via EZE or DOH is roughly the same distance. Australia is a different matter though, much shorter via the ME.

AR sold those segments when it flew to AKL with some success, but of course, they never bothered to do anything of it. Those South Pole flights are a treasure trove of connections and properly marketed they are a goldmine.

SCQ83 wrote:

Buenos Aires airport system had only 20 million passengers in 2016 for a metropolitan area of 12 million with bad connectivity by road/train to pretty much everywhere.

Nope, Argentina is extremely well connected by road; it has a good quality road network. Long distance bus service in Argentina is extremely good and efficient, but not ideal in a country of such distances. In spite of the country being so vast and geographically diverse, only Tierra del Fuego (an island) presents challenges to road transportation. The rest of the country is connected by a good road network. Ask yourself why in a country of such distances dedicated air cargo services never quite took off. The answer is easy access to roads that reach every population center in a very cost effective way.

Railroads are another story. The network is there but the country let it go to naught over the past 40 years. The only parts of the country not covered by the rail network are Patagonia's Atlantic Seaboard and the Andes south of the province of Rio Negro. Buenos Aires has 5 railroad terminals, which puts most cities in Europe with the exception of London, Paris and Moscow to shame; and all of them connect to the metro system (subte).but today they are mostly used as suburban trains terminals.