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SCQ83
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WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:06 pm

I was quite surprised to read Wizzair is starting Budapest to Astana.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... june-2017/

It looks like both FR and W6 (also Ryanair growing big in Israel) increasingly looking at newer markets in the East.

Where is the range limit for both Wizzair and Ryanair in Asia? If FR starts Ryanair Sun with a Polish AOC, I reckon if they would be allowed to fly from Poland to Central Asian destinations?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:11 pm

Magadan
 
SCQ83
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:14 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Magadan


:lol: I was talking in real range, specially with the W6's A321 from BUD and maybe Ryanair with their B737s from Poland if they get a local AOC.
 
lowfareair
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:22 pm

The crazy thing to me is the 4 hour turnaround time in TSE for a 320 - seems a bit steep, no?
 
SCQ83
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:17 pm

Btw would be possible for Wizzair to fly BUD-IKA?
 
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adamblang
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:47 pm

Where is the range limit for both Wizzair and Ryanair in Asia?

I think BUD-TSE is about the range limit of an 320.
Btw would be possible for Wizzair to fly BUD-IKA?

BUD-IKA is a shorter distance so would be physically possible.
If FR starts Ryanair Sun with a Polish AOC, I reckon if they would be allowed to fly from Poland to Central Asian destinations?

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't any EU-flagged carrier operate from any EU country? Having a Polish AOC wouldn't open any new countries to FR.

BUD is about the easternmost edge in the EU but if W6 wanted to push further into Asia they could launch some eastward flying from their SOF base. That'd start them another 300 miles east.
 
redadeco
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:03 pm

adamblang wrote:
BUD is about the easternmost edge in the EU but if W6 wanted to push further into Asia they could launch some eastward flying from their SOF base. That'd start them another 300 miles east.


As if SOF belongs to the African Union. SOF is the easternmost EU base.
 
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Polot
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:08 pm

adamblang wrote:
If FR starts Ryanair Sun with a Polish AOC, I reckon if they would be allowed to fly from Poland to Central Asian destinations?

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't any EU-flagged carrier operate from any EU country? Having a Polish AOC wouldn't open any new countries to FR.

It depends on the bilateral agreements. An EU-flagged carrier can only fly wherever it wants inside the EU. International it depends on the agreements with the non-EU country. The Central Asian country may not have an agreement with the EU as a whole and only permit Polish airlines (and the Central Asian country's airlines) to fly between them and Poland.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:09 pm

adamblang wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't any EU-flagged carrier operate from any EU country? Having a Polish AOC wouldn't open any new countries to FR.

BUD is about the easternmost edge in the EU but if W6 wanted to push further into Asia they could launch some eastward flying from their SOF base. That'd start them another 300 miles east.

Ok, so I'll correct you. EU- registered airlines can operate anywhere WITHIN the European Common Aviation Area, but whether it can operate to destinations outside this area depends on bilaterals. Many, if not most, bilaterals limit traffic rights to airlines registered in one of the two countries. That is why FR can only operate Ireland-Russia, not from any other country to Russia.

And regarding your comment about "push into Asia": if by Asia you mean Middle East and Central Asia, then LCA should be your best option, strictly geographically speaking.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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albertocsc
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:55 pm

redadeco wrote:
SOF is the easternmost EU base.


OTP is further east.

TLL is also east of SOF, but there is no W6 there.
 
SCQ83
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:17 pm

But Wizzair is a Hungarian company, they wouldn't be able to operate to places like Kazakhstan from SOF or OTP unless the bilateral allows it.

They fly from SOF to Tel Aviv and Dubai but those are b/c of open skies with Israel and the UAE.
 
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albertocsc
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:19 pm

I was not suggesting Wizz Air should operate flights to ALA or TSE out of OTP, just placing Bucharest on the map.

Anyways, I would love to see Blue Air operating flights to Georgia and maybe other West and Central Asian countries from OTP, to kind of compete with Wizz's eastward expansion. Maybe they also could take the DXB flight that is temporarily[?] abandoned by Tarom.
 
AngelAirways
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:14 pm

Wizz took over traffic rights to all the non-EU destinations from MALEV after their demise, allowing them "flag carrier" status. These rights are held by LOT, TAROM and Bulgaria Air respectively in the other countries being mentioned although each case is separately negotiable.

Wizz already fly to TLV from several Bases but that is because Israel is integrating into European open skies (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ai ... /israel_en). Iran, Kazakhstan, and other CIS countries are not.

This is why BUD is the ideal Base for eastern expansion because they have the traffic rights. With an A321 neo they can go as far as India (BOM/DEL) from BUD
 
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:43 pm

albertocsc wrote:
I was not suggesting Wizz Air should operate flights to ALA or TSE out of OTP, just placing Bucharest on the map.

Anyways, I would love to see Blue Air operating flights to Georgia and maybe other West and Central Asian countries from OTP, to kind of compete with Wizz's eastward expansion. Maybe they also could take the DXB flight that is temporarily[?] abandoned by Tarom.


I suspect Wizz will start Bucharest-Kutaisi, Georgia, if anyone starts Romania-Georgia. Due to open skies with the EU, Wizz now serves 10 destinations from Kutaisi, with others, including London, available for booking.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:04 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Due to open skies with the EU, Wizz now serves 10 destinations from Kutaisi, with others, including London, available for booking.


Still have no clue why people fall for the Kutaisi trap as an entry point into Georgia. Only works for local traffic, bus transfers to Tbilisi and Batumi take many hours, so not worth it.
 
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adamblang
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:51 am

Thanks MalevTU134 and Polot! Learned something today.
 
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:54 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Due to open skies with the EU, Wizz now serves 10 destinations from Kutaisi, with others, including London, available for booking.


Still have no clue why people fall for the Kutaisi trap as an entry point into Georgia. Only works for local traffic, bus transfers to Tbilisi and Batumi take many hours, so not worth it.


Obviously as it is relatively very cheap. Given Wizz's expansion there it must be working.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Galwayman
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:24 am

A very interesting and welcome development from Wizz.

Played around with some booking engines and looked at prices in July and although Wizzair direct from Budapest are reasonable the cheapest fares from the EU to Astana still seem to be Finnair from Dublin via Heksinki , possibly some marginal fare dumping strategy from Finnair
 
Drucocu
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:57 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Due to open skies with the EU, Wizz now serves 10 destinations from Kutaisi, with others, including London, available for booking.


Still have no clue why people fall for the Kutaisi trap as an entry point into Georgia. Only works for local traffic, bus transfers to Tbilisi and Batumi take many hours, so not worth it.


Most travellers I know who went there (including myself) spend a day or 2 in Kutaisi as well. It is a cute city with an interesting vibe, and a good starting point for several day trips or hiking excursions. Also, if you plan on going to Svaneti, Kutaisi is the best starting point.

Even though we paid for luggage, transfers and extra legroom, we saved about €100 per person compared to having a connecting flight into TBS or BUS. (And even then, the cheapest option was flying into KUT with UIA). €100 is enough to live a royal life style for a few days in Georgia, so the savings were well worth it :)

Travel time ended up being pretty much the same taking a bus from Tbilisi to KUT, flying into DTM, driving home in comparison with the time it would've taken going to TBS airport, connecting to AMS in KBP or SAW, and taking the train home (I live in the east of the Netherlands, close to the German border).
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:20 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Obviously as it is relatively very cheap. Given Wizz's expansion there it must be working.


Works because people chase cheap fares. But I know many folks, both originating in and visiting Tbilisi for business and pleasure, that have sworn off of Kutaisi because of the massive inconvenience. I wish they would have put the same amount of effort into expanding TBS, that would be a real winner.

Drucocu wrote:
Even though we paid for luggage, transfers and extra legroom, we saved about €100 per person compared to having a connecting flight into TBS or BUS. (And even then, the cheapest option was flying into KUT with UIA). €100 is enough to live a royal life style for a few days in Georgia, so the savings were well worth it :)


I completely agree with you if you are a tourist coming to explore the amazing country, Kutaisi is well worth a day or two. But if travel to Tbilisi (like most folks who use Kutaisi as a gateway due to the new airport and airline presence) is your goal, it's not a journey most regulars want to make over and over. The road leading to the capital is often a standstill, and the connecting bus to the city mostly takes 4+ hours. That's like flying to Reno, NV to come to the San Francisco Bay Area. Tbilisi is over 7 times larger than the second and third cities of Georgia, and most leisure and business traffic still originates there.

They should lower operating costs for airlines in TBS, and expand that airport too. The new terminal is a great improvement and they could make use of it well.
 
raylee67
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:11 pm

I don't think they will be able to cross the India-Pakistan border. Countries to the east of that border is either more protective of their domestic carriers or are beyond range of A320/737 from Europe. China may welcome them to northwestern Chinese destinations such as Urumqi, Xining or Lanzhou, given the policy of the country to help the western part of the country catch up economically. But I am not sure the airlines will be interested in flying to those places.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
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Polot
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:29 pm

AngelAirways wrote:
This is why BUD is the ideal Base for eastern expansion because they have the traffic rights. With an A321 neo they can go as far as India (BOM/DEL) from BUD

DEL (~2,900 nm) and especially BOM (~3,100 nm) may be pushing it. Airbus quotes the A321neo's range as 3,700nm with 185 passengers, and 3,500 nm with 20 more seats at 206 passengers. WizzAir's A321neos will seat 230-239 passengers, so its range will be even less than that (and those are still air ranges not taking into account winds).
 
Cassi
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Re: WizzAir starts Kazakhstan. Where is the Eastern limit for FR/W6?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:57 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I was quite surprised to read Wizzair is starting Budapest to Astana.


The bilateral was updated in November (with W6 representatives present), so after all it is not a big surprise that new flights are being added. Kazakhstan is trying hard to attract more tourists, and the country has been visa-free for EU citizens since January 2017. But it is still a niche market, last year the average weekly number of visitors from Germany was about 170.

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