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klm617
Posts: 5378
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:09 pm

SESGDL wrote:
klm617 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

Agreed. The hubris of the Delta cheer squad is insufferable, and I think a lot of us are sick and tired of them, but some of the posters in this thread are stooping just as low. That's disappointing as I had hoped that the United and American fanboys would take the moral high ground in dealing with the Delta guys to show just how hollow Delta's echo chamber really is.

That said, I think some of the posters in this thread are ratcheting up the hyperbole just to give the Delta guys a dose of their own medicine, not because they necessarily believe in what they're saying.


When you repeat something enough you start to believe it even if it is untrue. But karma has proved that it really isn't true and Delta is nothing more than a greedy investor orientated corporation that is to big to care and has little or no concern for the employee or customer experience.


Are you honestly serious in thinking that DL differs at all from the rest of the pack? So somehow DL is the only airline that is a "greedy investor oriented corporation that is too big to care..." ? That is simply asinine - DL is just like every single other airline in this regard. That's what a corporation is, an entity that exists to maximize shareholder wealth. Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy


At the expense of the customer and the employee and this happens on an every day bases just on a smaller scale it's just that this meltdown amplifies the way this airline is truly run and if you can agree with all this then to only thing I can say is you work in management because every one should be outraged at what happened here and heads should roll. If Delta spent as much time on their IT system as they do tweaking their capacity on a daily basis to drive up ticket prices then maybe they might be a better run company and this stuff wouldn't happen. Ed Bastian should be escorted out if this happened in lower level management they manager who's fault it was would be fired on the spot this is Bastian's baby and he screwed up big time since the last meltdown nothing has changed.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9703
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:23 pm

Well, zero cancellations today as of 1:30pm. Back to normal. Today's cancellation winner is Southwest, with 40 so far.

I have to say that this thread really hasn't shown the best of A.net.

Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:30 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Well, zero cancellations today as of 1:30pm. Back to normal.


I'm sure the passengers on DL1838, DL2107, DL2572, and DL2682 will be happy to hear that there are no flight cancellations.
 
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Polot
Posts: 11049
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:30 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...

Well, except for all the people who still have to get home and would like to be reunited with their luggage. DL has just gotten their air operations back on schedule. They still got some work cut out for them.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
United1
Posts: 4209
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:32 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Well, zero cancellations today as of 1:30pm. Back to normal. Today's cancellation winner is Southwest, with 40 so far.

I have to say that this thread really hasn't shown the best of A.net.

Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...


Not quite DL is showing up with 4 cancellations and 250 delayed flights but certainly better than their performance the last 6 days. Looks like the worst is over....

There is quite a lot more to see actually:
How is DL going to compensate all of the passengers they delayed due to their crew scheduling system meltdown?
Did DL manage to get everyone to their destinations?
Did DLs refusal to play nice with others regarding interline turn what could have been a manageable event into a disaster?
Did DL learn anything regarding how to handle IRROPS and would proactively canceling flights have allowed them to restart their system faster (ala AA at CLT)?

WN is as you pointed out leading the pack today with 33 cancellations...
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
akelley728
Posts: 2063
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:06 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...

Heck no. Were you personally affected by this event? I'm still dealing with emotional and financial repercussions due to Delta not handling this properly. Many, many other people are as well. See my story and a fellow passenger's story below.

United1 wrote:
There is quite a lot more to see actually:
How is DL going to compensate all of the passengers they delayed due to their crew scheduling system meltdown?
Did DL manage to get everyone to their destinations?
Did DLs refusal to play nice with others regarding interline turn what could have been a manageable event into a disaster?
Did DL learn anything regarding how to handle IRROPS and would proactively canceling flights have allowed them to restart their system faster (ala AA at CLT)?


United1, I have the same questions as you. Here is my story (I was part of this mess - twice):

Wednesday: Redeye SAN-ATL. Flight 'delayed' from 10:30pm to 7:30am the next morning (that's a cancellation Delta, not a delay!). Had to pay for an additional hotel night and Rental car day. Flight didn't leave until almost 9:30am. When we arrived in Atlanta, there was another plane at our gate. It took them almost an hour to get us to another gate (we were on a 767-300 and widebody gates are limited).

Friday: ATL-ORF. Flight delayed from 9:11am to 10:30pm then to 11:33pm. Got to the airport. Went to check my bag and they closed down the Sky Priority baggage check-in and was sending everyone to the 'special services desk' (which had a line a mile long). Asked a Red Coat why were they closing it down when he abruptly told me that 'management' decided to shut down the desk and consolidate everyone at one check-in (I overheard they were sending desk agents home who had been working a lot of extra hours). This caused me to miss the TSA pre-check line (pre-check closes at 9pm).

Got to the gate, flight delayed twice more, to 12:30am then 1:30am. Flight finally cancelled at 1:30am. Note, there were FOUR ATL-ORF flights cancelled that evening, all due to 'crew scheduling issues'. There were NO flights to ORF available on Saturday, the earliest I could get home on Sunday. (Fortunately me and a few other savvy Norfolk passengers found a flight to Richmond, VA that was leaving an hour later - we walked over and fortunately they had room for us. We got to Richmond and took a Uber home.) My checked bag didn't make it home until Sunday.

I was talking to a woman who had come in from CVG and was connecting to ATL to pickup her 11 year old son in ORF. They were then going to fly to PHX to spend a week in the Grand Canyon. Due to flights being cancelled, her vacation with her son was ruined. To this woman, this event certainly 'isn't over'.

How is DL going to compensate all of the passengers they delayed due to their crew scheduling system meltdown?
I called the Medallion desk and spoke to a 'supervisor'. They haven't figured it out yet.
Did DL manage to get everyone to their destinations?
In my case no - I had to figure it out on my own. I talked to at least a dozen people who decided to 'forget it', not go to their destination and go back home (because they missed the business meeting, conference, family event, whatever they had planned to go to). But flights to back to their home were booked solid as well.

I'm normally a big Delta fan, but over the past few days Delta really made me angry - I not only lost precious time with my children in Atlanta on Thursday (I had to cancel a day trip I had planned for them, and I also missed a marathon I was running on Saturday morning. I had trained really hard and was really looking forward to it. How in the heck will Delta make up for that?
Last edited by akelley728 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
akelley728
Posts: 2063
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Duplicate
 
wjcandee
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:30 pm

Polot wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...

Well, except for all the people who still have to get home and would like to be reunited with their luggage. DL has just gotten their air operations back on schedule. They still got some work cut out for them.


Fair enough.

As to another poster's comment about still "dealing with the emotional consequences of this event"... wow.
 
johns624
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:37 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Are you honestly serious in thinking that DL differs at all from the rest of the pack? So somehow DL is the only airline that is a "greedy investor oriented corporation that is too big to care..." ? That is simply asinine - DL is just like every single other airline in this regard. That's what a corporation is, an entity that exists to maximize shareholder wealth. Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy
You're missing the point. Delta reminds me of Lance Armstrong. What brought Armstrong down wasn't his using drugs, it was his hubris. Anyone who knew anything about the peloton knew that everyone who's a contender takes drugs. The problem for Lance was that he talked too much. He was always spouting off about the "dirty Europeans" (mainly French) and how clean him and his fellow Americans were. Same with Delta, they brag more than any other airline, so when they step in it, they are fair game. I've very seldom agreed with klm617, but I do here.
 
keitherson
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:47 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
There are clearly several of you who simply want to do in this thread the exact same thing we jump on Jumbojet for doing in other threads.


Agreed. The hubris of the Delta cheer squad is insufferable, and I think a lot of us are sick and tired of them, but some of the posters in this thread are stooping just as low. That's disappointing as I had hoped that the United and American fanboys would take the moral high ground in dealing with the Delta guys to show just how hollow Delta's echo chamber really is.

That said, I think some of the posters in this thread are ratcheting up the hyperbole just to give the Delta guys a dose of their own medicine, not because they necessarily believe in what they're saying.


There is nothing wrong with a company having fanboys. Apple has many. What is more annoying are the anti-fanboys.

They're the ones that never have anything nice to say, are always negative, very passive-aggressive, and so forth.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:51 pm

looks like DL has been saved by UA
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
akelley728
Posts: 2063
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:51 pm

wjcandee wrote:
As to another poster's comment about still "dealing with the emotional consequences of this event"... wow.


Wow is right. You weren't there. This didn't affect you personally. However, there were thousands of people who it did affect. Plans ruined Vacations were cancelled. Funerals missed. Weddings missed. Loved ones who passed away before their son/daughter/sibling/friend could get to them in time. Precious time lost because Delta couldn't get their act together. I understand there was bad weather in Atlanta on Wednesday, I get it, it happens. But passengers shouldn't have to deal with the repercussions of that 3 days later! This is where Delta failed.

I was talking to a woman who had come in from CVG and was connecting to ATL to pickup her 11 year old son in ORF. They were then going to fly to PHX to spend a week in the Grand Canyon as part of a hiking tour. Due to flights being cancelled, her vacation with her son was ruined. To this woman, this event certainly 'isn't over'.

Another gentleman had a friend dying of cancer and had less than 24 hours to live. He was trying to get to Norfolk to spend the last few hours with his friend. He was very upset as the prospect of not being there when his friend passed on.

These people were quite angry and upset. It was very very stressful being told your flight was delayed 4x. Being shuffled from gate to gate every couple of hours. Then when the flight being cancelled, standing in a customer service line for hours trying to re-book, and being told that there was NOTHING that could get them to their destination until Sunday, because all flights were overbooked for the next 24 hours.

Yes me and my fellow passengers are still dealing with the emotional repercussions of this. They need time to get over it, like 1000s of other travelers whose plans were ruined because of Delta's incompetence.

Like I said, I'm normally a Delta fan. Been a Medallion with them for over five years. I've seen a lot. I was part of the 'global IT meltdown' that Delta had back on August 8 and was stuck in Atlanta for a day. But Delta recovered from that one quickly and with a lot more class than this one. Ed Bastian at least acknowledged the issue within 24 hours and said Delta would make it right and they had learned their lesson. Well, obviously they didn't which makes this recent episode all the more painful.
Last edited by akelley728 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Polot
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:04 pm

keitherson wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a company having fanboys. Apple has many. What is more annoying are the anti-fanboys.

They're the ones that never have anything nice to say, are always negative, very passive-aggressive, and so forth.

The issue isn't the existence of anti-fanboys, or even fanboys themselves. The problem are the arrogant-fanboys. The ones who are negative towards other airlines over every little thing, who refuse to recognize even the most basic of problems of their favorite airlines, and who are quick to rub their fav airline's superiority in other peoples faces. DL is actually my favorite of the US3, and one of my favorite airlines in the world, but I know they are not a perfect organization that always makes the right decisions even before their recent meltdowns. Some are employees, some are not (and not all employees are arrogant-fanboys. I.e., I wouldn't label DeltamanL1011 or whatever his name is one for example).

The issue with DL in particular is that DL has had a history of being dominated by arrogant-fanboys on A.net ever since 2006-2007ish when DL left bankruptcy and started getting more creative with route and product decisions (culminating in their merger with NW that had minimal issues). It is better now then it use to be, but many on A.net have gotten tired hearing about how every decision DL makes is great, and how DL can open whatever hub (according to A.net circa 2007-2008 DL was moments away from announcing megahubs in SEA, LGA, DCA, LAX, JFK, MIA, reopening hub in DFW all at the same time depending on who you were talking to) and start whatever route and easily crush their UA or AA competition. So when the mighty fall and the arrogant-fanboys have to eat some humble pie (although you will notice many have suspiciously not posted in this thread) you get the people who relish rubbing it in their face.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
looks like DL has been saved by UA


Amazing, isn't it. lol It's like UA falls over themselves trying to look bad. The only thing I'll say to that is this: Other than for that poor fellow in the video, the UA debacle is mostly one of PR. The DL debacle, in contrast, had a huge impact in very personal ways on tens of thousands of people. I seriously hope (but won't hold my breath) that the DL fanboys don't try to equate the two. One is clearly horrible and embarrassing but isolated. The other is a systemic breakdown.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
toobz
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:17 pm

Well since it all started with weather related issues, I'm gonna venture to guess no compensation. I understand people that were affected by this aren't happy. It's only natural. Not sure what DL could have done. This affected the busiest airport in the world. Not an easy thing to recover from..glad that things are starting to get back to normal. And the same anti DL fan boys at it again lol ....always lookin at DL with a magnifying glass trying to find something negative to say haha. It's so predictable it's comical and yet they luuuuuuv to show up in any DL thread. your hatred has turned into an infatuation. We take notice :) Welcome aboard
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:18 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Well, zero cancellations today as of 1:30pm. Back to normal. Today's cancellation winner is Southwest, with 40 so far.

I have to say that this thread really hasn't shown the best of A.net.

Event over. Nothing more to see here. Maybe now this thread can be locked...


Why lock the most informative thread in weeks?

In fact, this thread has shown at least two (probably more) sides of a.net.

Please don't suggest locking threads because "your" side isn't getting all the exposure.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:29 pm

This thread is basically unreadable due to the rampant fanboy-ism on all sides that plagues a.net.
There is such drivel and cheerleading and overall snarkiness on all sides, that there is such limited in-depth discussion on here.

There is a lot better reading on other forums that are from people who were actually traveling over the past few days, crews, or employees without all the attacks and fanboy-ism or flaming the fanboys, or fanboys throwing accusations at other fan boys.

This site reads more like rival college football team fan sites than a true site about aviation/airlines/airplanes these days.
 
grbauc
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:47 pm

Yea Anyone that travels Should Know that IN IRROP'S and Shit Hits the Fan that Most/ALL airlines will fold up and the worst of the worst Customer service will happen. Airlines do have a responsibility but when a major shit show happens its usually so overwhelming that there will be no winners. Employees/Employer and customers all lose. Its part of air travel.
 
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Polot
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:55 pm

grbauc wrote:
Yea Anyone that travels Should Know that IN IRROP'S and Shit Hits the Fan that Most/ALL airlines will fold up and the worst of the worst Customer service will happen. Airlines do have a responsibility but when a major shit show happens its usually so overwhelming that there will be no winners. Employees/Employer and customers all lose. Its part of air travel.

I don't think many people are blaming the shit show of bad customer service from employees and customers on DL, rather the problem is the time it took DL to recover from the IRROPs. One hub being shut down ~1 day due to thunderstorms should not throw the entire network in chaos for 4-5 days (that is not a normal part of air travel). Some are just relishing the shit storm for karma reasons.
 
airtechy
Posts: 787
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 pm

One of the great things about the new forum is the ability to "ignore" posters. I have added several in this thread. Now if the quotes from them could be ignored it would be perfect. I should add that to the "suggest" list.
 
toobz
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:10 pm

Polot for the record this wasn't your typical thunderstorm. ATL sees plenty of those days. I'm sure you are aware. This was quite the storm. It takes a few days to get ops back on track when thousands of flights were involved. I'm sure DL did everything in their power to get things back on track as fast as possible.
 
johns624
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:22 pm

toobz wrote:
Polot for the record this wasn't your typical thunderstorm. ATL sees plenty of those days. I'm sure you are aware. This was quite the storm. It takes a few days to get ops back on track when thousands of flights were involved. I'm sure DL did everything in their power to get things back on track as fast as possible.
It wasn't the storm, it was the software.
 
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Polot
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:27 pm

toobz wrote:
Polot for the record this wasn't your typical thunderstorm. ATL sees plenty of those days. I'm sure you are aware. This was quite the storm. It takes a few days to get ops back on track when thousands of flights were involved. I'm sure DL did everything in their power to get things back on track as fast as possible.

I'm aware, I live in the Southeast ;) But everyone was aware a major storm was coming, it is not like it just appeared suddenly out of the blue. You had school districts pre-cancelling school, which is basically unheard of here for a thunderstorm. The storm turned out worse for ATL than expected, but it was still expected to be a nasty storm.

DL tried its best to get back on track, and nobody is denying the storms would throw things off and expecting DL to back with no issues on Thursday, but it was not all the storm's fault. DL had an IT meltdown when it came to crew scheduling. Now the storm throwing everything out of whack was the root cause, but a day long thunderstorm shouldn't also overwhelm an airline's IT systems for days afterwards.

It was poor planning on DL's fault. Both in the decisions they made in order to try and minimize the storms impact (it is clear that DL should have been more aggressive when it came to pre-cancelling flights, although that is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight), and the decisions they made in regards to their IT systems which clearly could not cope with the stress put on it after a major IRROP event. 8 months after DL had a meltdown due to the failure of their IT systems (hmm...I wonder what DL's weakest department might currently be?).

Part of this honestly comes from DL's tendency to both avoid cancelling flights and avoid giving flights long delays upfront (DL is an airline that likes to string passengers along with multiple 20-30 min delays given as close to the (new) departure time as possible). Great when things are going smoothly, not so great when they are not.
 
andydtwnwa7
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:43 pm

toobz wrote:
Polot for the record this wasn't your typical thunderstorm. ATL sees plenty of those days. I'm sure you are aware. This was quite the storm. It takes a few days to get ops back on track when thousands of flights were involved. I'm sure DL did everything in their power to get things back on track as fast as possible.


Look I've been what some would consider a "Delta Fanboy" since the merger with NW...they're always the first airline I look to for travel, but even I know when to call a spade a spade.

If anyone still honestly believes this was "just a really bad weather event", you've gotta be living under a rock. Please give me another example of a significant weather event affecting one hub for one day causing thousands of cancelations up to 5 days later across the entire network....how many winter storms do we see a year across the Midwest and Northeast? How many storms roll across Texas each year? I don't care how bad the weather was on Wednesday, an airline the size/caliber of Delta shouldn't be affected to this magnitude by it. Bad weather has been happening since long before Delta was founded, let's stop pretending it's a new phenomenon.

With that said, I echo previous comments that perhaps we can finally move past the fanboy/anti-fanboy comments, pretending weather was the culprit, beating several dead horses, etc. and entertain well informed comments about how this could be avoided, how to avoid in the future, etc. At the end of the day we're all aviation enthusiasts, maybe it's time we start having constructive conversation, objectively, about this event?
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:58 pm

A332DTW wrote:
Numerous gates had requests for law enforcement to assist.


flymco753 wrote:
I went to get a coffee at the NY Times by A20 before it closed and I could swear there was going to be a riot at the help desk.


My favorite tweet so far: "The Delta terminal in Atlanta is Coachella for angry people"

I was one of the lucky ones - I only got stuck for an extra day in MSP.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8401
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:02 pm

The event started as weather on Wed 4/5/17
https://www.wunderground.com/history/ai ... .wmo=99999
ATL had 5 hours+ of thunderstorms from 8am-2pm, and another round later in the afternoon, and another period of storms from 8-11pm.

When there are thunderstorms over the field that means:
1) No departures and arrivals
2) Aircraft that are headed to ATL on ground stop / hold and their departure airport
3) In-flight will continue or hold as feasible, but divert if necessary
4) In ATL itself, a closed ramp so no aircraft be loaded/unloaded until lightning activity subsides

What this lead to by the end of the first round of storms by mid-afternoon:
* 1,000 flights directly delayed, diverted, or cancelled due to the weather related ground stop at ATL (both flights to ATL and departing ATL)
* 500+ aircraft out of position and off their normal schedules
* 500+ sets of crews pilots & FAs out of position and off their normal schedules
* Untold number of crews pilots & FAs unable to commute to ATL to start scheduled trips as over 40% of ATL-based crews commute from other cities

So now they have the challenge of reconstructing a beyond-broke schedule that is now about 3 departure banks out-of-sync. Worst of all it also happened in the morning too with a full operating day ahead. In most cases storms hit more often later in the day and move through faster so its more common to see it extent out the end of the operating day and absorb the delays into overnight/RON time.

Now you have the huge operations research model and algorithms to piece this all back together.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:07 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The event started as weather on Wed 4/5/17
https://www.wunderground.com/history/ai ... .wmo=99999
ATL had 5 hours+ of thunderstorms from 8am-2pm, and another round later in the afternoon, and another period of storms from 8-11pm.

When there are thunderstorms over the field that means:
1) No departures and arrivals
2) Aircraft that are headed to ATL on ground stop / hold and their departure airport
3) In-flight will continue or hold as feasible, but divert if necessary
4) In ATL itself, a closed ramp so no aircraft be loaded/unloaded until lightning activity subsides

What this lead to by the end of the first round of storms by mid-afternoon:
* 1,000 flights directly delayed, diverted, or cancelled due to the weather related ground stop at ATL (both flights to ATL and departing ATL)
* 500+ aircraft out of position and off their normal schedules
* 500+ sets of crews pilots & FAs out of position and off their normal schedules
* Untold number of crews pilots & FAs unable to commute to ATL to start scheduled trips as over 40% of ATL-based crews commute from other cities

So now they have the challenge of reconstructing a beyond-broke schedule that is now about 3 departure banks out-of-sync. Worst of all it also happened in the morning too with a full operating day ahead. In most cases storms hit more often later in the day and move through faster so its more common to see it extent out the end of the operating day and absorb the delays into overnight/RON time.

Now you have the huge operations research model and algorithms to piece this all back together.


Absolutely. However, it sounds like the system crashed, not just fell behind. Is that not the case?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8401
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Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:10 pm

The next problem is now that the problem starts to amplify as to how DL has constructed many of their aircraft and crew schedules:

The complexities are magnified because:
- Multiple fleet types
- Aircraft routings that are complex and transit multiple hubs in a day e.g., MCO-ATL-LAX-DTW
- Crew routings that diverge from aircraft (E.g., aircraft may turn to LAX but the crew goes to MCO)
- FA and pilots that turn onto different routings in ATL.

So even getting one aircraft into ATL doesn't mean it helps you get others out plus you have limits on the number of planes that could even have space at ATL.

Crew tracking became overwhelmed with the shear number of out of place crews, busted trips, out of place airplanes and the shear manpower needed to re-organize a schedule that worked with all the constraints. As in all of this crew duty times became a huge factor. So you have aircraft scheduled on flights with no crews to cover, and crews scheduled to flights where there is no aircraft or the aircraft is stuck elsewhere awaiting crews, or crews are stuck and can't even get to a hub to start a trip.

Not to mention passengers and the massive feat of rebooking, and rebooking to canceled flights.
Not to mention baggage.

This will be a very interesting case study to see post-mortem what sort of operational changes occur.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8401
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:17 pm

Call it whatever you want, what appears to happen is that the volume of transactions was overwhelming, bad/inaccurate input data, and an overwhelmed communication system led to the inability to get full, legally-rested, properly assigned crews to aircraft across the system. Basically re-writing schedules and trying to figure out where everyone was where airplanes where, and where/when they were going to fly.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8401
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:26 pm

In hindsight, DL would have been better-off pre-cancelled everything to/from ATL through mid-afternoon Wednesday except maybe the international flights and used that time to reconstruct crew and aircraft schedules. It would've spilled over into Thursday but would've contained the IRROPS likely to two days.

Now, some guessing here is that with load factors so high they would've been dealt still with massive passenger re-routes and a lack of seats for just as long as there is no easy way to accommodate that much volume if they cancel 600+ nearly full flights in/out/through ATL. It still would've taken until Sunday to recover the backlog of passengers.

However, the real kicker is the fact that they were still canceling completely unaffected passengers due to crew issues at completely unaffected airports through Sunday. The fact that flights on Sat & Sun like DTW-TPA or DTW-LGA were still being cancelled shows how far and wide the issues cascaded around the network.
 
johns624
Posts: 3047
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:50 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- Aircraft routings that are complex and transit multiple hubs in a day e.g., MCO-ATL-LAX-DTW
I know a 320 FO based in DTW who may go on a 4 day trip and never see DTW again until his last leg. It doesn't really make any sense.
 
klkla
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:59 pm

airtechy wrote:
One of the great things about the new forum is the ability to "ignore" posters. I have added several in this thread. Now if the quotes from them could be ignored it would be perfect. I should add that to the "suggest" list.


Thanks. Is this done with the "Add Foe" button?
 
twinotter
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:51 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy


I majored in Economics. The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:27 am

twinotter wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy


I majored in Economics. The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly.


Oligopoly: A market in which each of a few producers affects but does not control the market. Webster's 9th, 1986

Oligopoly: A market situation in which a few producers control the demand from a large number of buyers. Webster's New Ideal, 1968

Oligopoly: is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers. Wikipedia

Oligopoly: is a market structure in which a small number of firms has the large majority of market share. Investopedia

Perhaps there are other definitions offering somewhat different flavors of interpretation?

What prevents an oligopoly, by whatever definition, from being a "free market" in the sense of unrestricted competition among the players?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3434
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:47 am

johns624 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- Aircraft routings that are complex and transit multiple hubs in a day e.g., MCO-ATL-LAX-DTW
I know a 320 FO based in DTW who may go on a 4 day trip and never see DTW again until his last leg. It doesn't really make any sense.


Why doesn't it make sense. Obviously for scheduling it does. I work at a regional, based in DTW, and we routinely do trips that are the exact same way.
From my cold, dead hands
 
twinotter
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:21 am

BobPatterson wrote:

What prevents an oligopoly, by whatever definition, from being a "free market" in the sense of unrestricted competition among the players?


Indeed, Delta competes freely with Boutique Air in Atlanta. You googled a bunch of definitions, but I'm not sure you understand what oligopoly power means.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:24 am

toobz wrote:
Polot for the record this wasn't your typical thunderstorm. ATL sees plenty of those days. I'm sure you are aware. This was quite the storm. It takes a few days to get ops back on track when thousands of flights were involved. I'm sure DL did everything in their power to get things back on track as fast as possible.


And they want it back up has fast has possible. Its in there interest employees alike. (most of them)
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:17 am

Polot wrote:
grbauc wrote:
Yea Anyone that travels Should Know that IN IRROP'S and Shit Hits the Fan that Most/ALL airlines will fold up and the worst of the worst Customer service will happen. Airlines do have a responsibility but when a major shit show happens its usually so overwhelming that there will be no winners. Employees/Employer and customers all lose. Its part of air travel.

I don't think many people are blaming the shit show of bad customer service from employees and customers on DL, rather the problem is the time it took DL to recover from the IRROPs. One hub being shut down ~1 day due to thunderstorms should not throw the entire network in chaos for 4-5 days (that is not a normal part of air travel). Some are just relishing the shit storm for karma reasons.


Do you Think Delta or American Airlines or any airline for that matter once their hub shut down they lose millions and millions of dollars. I'm sure they're working their ass off to make sure when something happens again they can shorten that time and they'll be learning from the episode that just happened.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:12 am

Three things are clear:

1. Delta is lucky this rolled into the weekend news cycle so that it wasn't on as many people's radar.
2. Delta is "lucky" that it was initiated as a weather event, and then their PR machine worked hard at reinforcing that narrative throughout the meltdown.
3. Delta is lucky that UA is an attention hound.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
alggag
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:34 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:18 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
3. Delta is lucky that UA is an attention hound.


As soon as I heard about the UA incident my first thought was that DL needs to send them a fruit basket or something.
 
AirInterCRV
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:04 am

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/advisories.html

Stranded passengers will certainly be reassured by the fact that the situation isn't viewed as a "critical alert" by DL !
It's down there on par with some strike in Argentina.

Whereas I highly doubt that most DL passengers are anxious about the developments of the French Guiana crisis - heck, the ORY-CAY daily that got cancelled a few times over the last week isn't even a DL codeshare...
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:23 am

twinotter wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

What prevents an oligopoly, by whatever definition, from being a "free market" in the sense of unrestricted competition among the players?


Indeed, Delta competes freely with Boutique Air in Atlanta. You googled a bunch of definitions, but I'm not sure you understand what oligopoly power means.


Two of the definitions came from dictionaries beside my computer. It matters not whether I used Google for the other two (I didn't).

You are free to educate us about "oligopoly power" when you answer the first question.

Why are you being evasive?

Delta does not compete with Boutique Air. Period. Boutique provides EAS service to Muscle Shoals. Delta is afraid to compete with them :-)

The FlightRadar24 ATL departures board lists 2442 flights for an approximately 48 hour period (I deleted air freight carriers). Delta has 1,923 of those flights while 519 (including 4 by Boutique) are flown by 9 other domestic and 10 international airlines.

Now that you have a few facts to work with, tell us about oligopoly power in Atlanta.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
GoSteelers
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:26 pm

twinotter wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
There is really no such "primary" diversion airport. It all depends on where the Center is holding. Yes, sometimes CHA works; however, if they are already holding further out on the arrivals, BNA would be better. TYS gets diverts from the northeast. BHM gets diverts from the west. Anything inbound from the south/Florida etc... may go to JAX. It all depends on the weather at the diversion airport, where the divert A/C is currently at, and some pilot/carrier requests.


In the United States, it has *everything* to do with pilot requests, since that is how diversions are initiated. ATC doesn't divert planes or tell them which city to divert to. The captain and dispatcher work together to choose the best alternate airport based on fuel remaining, weather at the potential diversion airport, position of the thunderstorms (if that's the reason for holding), and company resources at the potential diversion station. When a diversion airport is agreed on by the captain and dispatcher, each calculates the amount of time the plane can continue to hold before it must divert to the agreed-upon airport. If it reaches that point, the captain *tells* ATC the flight is diverting and ATC will direct the path of flight to that airport.


For the most part yes. But, there are times where ATC is involved. I specifically worked a time at an airport where we ran out of room and had to call the center and tell them we have no more room to park diverts.
 
StuckinCMHland
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:12 pm

I'm sorry, but it is very hard to see how Delta can pass all this off as only a weather related problem and not have to pay compensation to many if not all the affected passengers. If someone can explain how the airline can justify it please explain it.

As I understand it, after the thunderstorms came through they had a major meltdown of an important system that stranded many people and it took days to even begin to move many passengers. How is that not the airline's fault? ATL wasn't flooded for a week, there was no power outage that destroyed the system that the airline relied on, it was a system-wide failure affecting other hubs and airports not just ATL, a major factor in the problem is that too many planes only go through ATL and not other hubs, and finally they had no coherent plan to deal with the emergency once everything happened.

They had two events, a day of nasty weather, then the flight crew system melted down. Hard to see how one caused the other except for a failure of the airline.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:08 pm

DL posted a letter today that the media reported the crew legalities wrong, and admitted they lost control over crew scheduling.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:48 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
DL posted a letter today that the media reported the crew legalities wrong, and admitted they lost control over crew scheduling.


"Crap, look at what's happening to Oscar over at UA. Ed, you better just come clean today rather than hope this all blows over."

The difference between a good PR machine and a bad PR machine. Win goes to DL (can you post the letter?)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:21 pm

twinotter wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy


I majored in Economics. The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly.


Most economics departments and high level classes would teach you that free market and oligopoly are not mutually exclusive. Free markets can certainly trend to monopolistic competition resulting in oligopoly as well. The airline market is not a completely free market, but it is certainly not a fully regulated one either. High barriers to entry are a large contributor to monopolistic competition practices that go on in the industry.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5378
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:33 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
twinotter wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Have you taken economics before? That's what the free-market is all about.

Jeremy


I majored in Economics. The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly.


Most economics departments and high level classes would teach you that free market and oligopoly are not mutually exclusive. Free markets can certainly trend to monopolistic competition resulting in oligopoly as well. The airline market is not a completely free market, but it is certainly not a fully regulated one either. High barriers to entry are a large contributor to monopolistic competition practices that go on in the industry.



It is fully regulated now by the US3 they levy any charges they want to and dictate price by continually reducing capacity and the customer has no other recourse other than to not fly. These airlines are all so big and powerful now that a start up no longer is viable. This statement is true "The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly"
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

Re: Heck, Delta is having it bad

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:34 pm

Interestingly enough, this system failure was exactly what happened to OH back on Christmas of 2004. The WX wasn't the "actual" problem. The computer system became overwhelmed and crashed. THAT'S where the on-going nightmare blossomed. I think it was jetBlue that did the "hard restart" a few years ago after the Valentine's Day Meltdown where they shut everything down for something like 36 hrs to move planes and crews to "restart" (and then work through the backlog). I'm not sure if that would work with an airline of size and scope--but one almost wonders if that would be something to explore. Also having a sort of "on-call National Guard" of trained people (crew tracking, hotels/transportation, res/rebooking, etc) who can be activated from work-at-home sites would add "X" number of available agents on short notice. Again, maybe not the only solution, but one to explore. Lastly, the "snark email" about jetBlue coming etc never was written..."fake news" if there ever were any.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Heck, ATL is having it bad.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
Osubuckeyes wrote:
twinotter wrote:

I majored in Economics. The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly.


Most economics departments and high level classes would teach you that free market and oligopoly are not mutually exclusive. Free markets can certainly trend to monopolistic competition resulting in oligopoly as well. The airline market is not a completely free market, but it is certainly not a fully regulated one either. High barriers to entry are a large contributor to monopolistic competition practices that go on in the industry.



It is fully regulated now by the US3 they levy any charges they want to and dictate price by continually reducing capacity and the customer has no other recourse other than to not fly. These airlines are all so big and powerful now that a start up no longer is viable. This statement is true "The airline industry is not a free market; it's an oligopoly"


Free market is determined by government regulation not by pricing power, lobbying power, or lack of competition. The market is a monopolistic in nature as we have seen, and currently portions of it are operating as an oligopoly, but that does not mean it isn't a free market, it also doesn't mean it is a regulated market. Further you over estimate the ability of the US3 to "regulate" the market, as if they had their way the ME3 wouldn't be operating in the US.
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