Money4Nothing
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:20 pm

I am CEO at a "mid sized company" and we encourage cost conscious airline travel, including our corporate officers. We wont support our employees paying more for lie flats transcon when AS provides excellent F class option that are very comfortable for 5-6 hour flights. Many of my peers feel just precisely the same when setting corporate travel policies.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:25 pm

Just seems like AS/VX isn't thinking clearly about this. Between DAL and DFW they only operate a small handful of flights. And operating from two neighboring airports just makes connections impossible.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
What is the real deal with the lie flat product? You come on A.N and the lack of a lie-flat product precludes someone from competing on a trans-con. You don't have lie-flat...don't even bother.

You listen to AS upper management and they say that passengers (at least their pax) prefer a traditional FC with a generous upgrade policy to a lie-flat product with no chance for upgrade except for the most elite of travelers. How important are those lie-flat passengers to the profitability of a route?


I don't think that AS management believes that most passengers "prefer a traditional FC" with a generous upgrade policy. I think they understand that there are a number of travelers that want lie flat beds. But they do believe that there's a segment of the traveling public that are looking for something in between lie flat and Southwest/Spirit/Frontier and the majority of Jet Blue flights that don't offer any type of FC product. A sizeable segment at that. Lie flats are great, but airlines can't afford to give that real estate away to a lot of frequent fliers - only the most valued of their top fliers will reap that benefit and most will have to pay for it. That's some valuable real estate. So, given a choice between a better chance at a free upgrade to a much more comfortable seat that isn't lie flat and having to pay much more for a lie flat seat, I think Alaska realizes that there are a lot of people that will opt for a chance to upgrade to the more comfortable seat and, if they don't end up there, sit in the Premium Economy seat.
 
phluser
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:37 pm

flyingcat wrote:
Can AS/VX trade/deal the LGA and DCA slots to a carrier with the best offer? Originally I would have expected VX to angle for more JFK or EWR slots, now as a combined company without a premium lie flat I have no clue what they may want.
ORD gate?
cash only?
SAN gate?


AS can't sell LGA or DCA slots back to AA, as those slots were forced from AA, as divestiture of the AA/US merger, and AS probably can't sell to DL at LGA, because DL is the largest carrier at LGA, and it probably wouldn't work for DCA. Any sale would require approval ultimately. I've wondered if it could trade it's in perimeter DCA slots with JetBlue. JetBlue could operate something like BUF-DCA which would fit with B6's profile at BUF and north-south at DCA, but I can't figure out would JetBlue offer in return other than cash, but maybe JetBlue could offer a lot of it. JetBlue obviously won't give up JFK slots, and EWR is no longer slotted.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:41 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Just seems like AS/VX isn't thinking clearly about this. Between DAL and DFW they only operate a small handful of flights. And operating from two neighboring airports just makes connections impossible.


Alaska will route connections to AA flights via DFW and those that are traveling locally and find DAL more convenient will go there. It's no different than operating to BWI/IAD/DCA, where AS can offer connections via AA at DCA, but not necessarily at BWI and IAD as much. Or JFK/EWR, where AA may offer more connecting opportunities at JFK than EWR. The Dallas/Fort Worth area MSA is over 7,000,000 people and growing. It's the largest in Texas, largest in the South/Southwest, 4th largest in the U.S.A, and 10th largest in the Americas. There is more than enough traffic in the Dallas area to support flights at both airports.
 
tphuang
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:53 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
What is the real deal with the lie flat product? You come on A.N and the lack of a lie-flat product precludes someone from competing on a trans-con. You don't have lie-flat...don't even bother.

You listen to AS upper management and they say that passengers (at least their pax) prefer a traditional FC with a generous upgrade policy to a lie-flat product with no chance for upgrade except for the most elite of travelers. How important are those lie-flat passengers to the profitability of a route?


Well B6 did say that they'd have to pull out of the transcon market and were doing terribly on JFK to SFO/LAX until they moved on to mint. They mention in every investor call how badly they were doing pre-mint on these 2 routes. And that's with their major hub in JFK, which AS doesn't have. So if AS becomes the only one offering 6 flights a day to LAX form JFK with no lie flat, they will have to do something that B6 didn't think of.

so if B6 starts charging $599 for mint on JFK to SEA or JFK to SAN, then DL will start doing the same when it starts offering lie flats there. If AS is still trying to sell its regular F for $600, who is going to be paying for that?

flyingcat wrote:

It is extremely important for the corporate paid First class market which demands lie flat and will exclude carriers if they don't have a competitive product. I'm not saying that they can't fly these markets but that to the old VX gaining additional frequency was paramount as their model needed high share of a premium market. Alaska would not be able to generate the same yield on this type of route which is why they have a higher mix of mid and short haul routes with a lower mix of First.

I would actually no longer call Alaska's FC traditional, it is an outlier in the longhaul transcon market. Legacy complimentary upgrades are getting more rare, as cabin density increases and minimum revenue goals are decreasing the amount of elites.

The economics and priorities of Alaska's network are a whole different case as are what they would be willing to trade DCA/LGA slots for.

AA still allows for free upgrades on its premium transcon flights.

And I can tell you that right now those upgrades on A321T are happening pretty frequently for EXP flyers from what I can see (as long as the flight is not one of times where everyone wants to fly). I'm flying JFK to LAX in a month and would be very disappointed if I don't get upgraded to a lie flat. There is a reason that AA is charging well over $300 from LAX to JFK for its economy class on all of sunday when you can book for $182 to 200 on AS/B6.
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:09 pm

Lots of people seem to be predicting SAN-DAL, but given that Alaska hasn't seen fit to launch SAN-DFW, this seems like a stretch. Launching SAN-DAL would mean that they could no longer codeshare on AA's SAN-DFW flights (not sure whether they're doing so currently--but they're not prohibited, at least). Same deal with SJC.

But I think SEA-DAL and PDX-DAL are very likely adds.

I think there's still no mileage reciprocity between AA and VX... is that right? So maybe AS goes in and tries to replace the VX flying at DAL with AS or Horizon soon, so as to start luring AA loyalists into occasionally flying them. At that point, DCA and LGA make more sense, and ORD, PHL, and CLT start looking attractive, too (ORD-DAL is currently unserved). This seems like it would likely hurt WN more than AA, so maybe AA would be ok with it? Not sure.

EA CO AS wrote:
seatback wrote:
Do you think Delta can make a move here??


Nope. DL will get a DAL gate from AS when airborne pigs are seeing merrily cruising along the frozen landscape of Hell.


DL can certainly make an offer, and if it's attractive enough, AS might consider it--what DOJ would decide is a big question mark. But even though it seems like DL is really dedicated to squatting for free (and competing with WN at the same time), they haven't shown much willingness to put up cash for DAL access.
 
jbs2886
Topic Author
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:23 pm

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
Lots of people seem to be predicting SAN-DAL, but given that Alaska hasn't seen fit to launch SAN-DFW, this seems like a stretch. Launching SAN-DAL would mean that they could no longer codeshare on AA's SAN-DFW flights (not sure whether they're doing so currently--but they're not prohibited, at least). Same deal with SJC.

But I think SEA-DAL and PDX-DAL are very likely adds.

I think there's still no mileage reciprocity between AA and VX... is that right? So maybe AS goes in and tries to replace the VX flying at DAL with AS or Horizon soon, so as to start luring AA loyalists into occasionally flying them. At that point, DCA and LGA make more sense, and ORD, PHL, and CLT start looking attractive, too (ORD-DAL is currently unserved). This seems like it would likely hurt WN more than AA, so maybe AA would be ok with it? Not sure.

EA CO AS wrote:
seatback wrote:
Do you think Delta can make a move here??


Nope. DL will get a DAL gate from AS when airborne pigs are seeing merrily cruising along the frozen landscape of Hell.


DL can certainly make an offer, and if it's attractive enough, AS might consider it--what DOJ would decide is a big question mark. But even though it seems like DL is really dedicated to squatting for free (and competing with WN at the same time), they haven't shown much willingness to put up cash for DAL access.


How do you know they haven't shown willingness to put up cash for DAL access? If they were, to whom?

Edit: I'm not sure how not launching SAN-DFW means they won't do SAN-DAL. They have significantly emphasized California markets since the VA acquisition, so that analysis has changed.
 
jplatts
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:51 am

Alaska has nonstops from its main hub in Seattle to both JFK and Newark, to all 3 DC airports (DCA, IAD, BWI), to 4 SF Bay Area airports (SFO, OAK, SJC, STS), and to 4 LA area airports (LAX, BUR, SNA, ONT). Alaska might end up operating nonstops to its main Seattle hub from both DFW and DAL like it does in some of the other cities that are served by more than one commercial airport.
 
grbauc
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:54 am

ASFlyer wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Just seems like AS/VX isn't thinking clearly about this. Between DAL and DFW they only operate a small handful of flights. And operating from two neighboring airports just makes connections impossible.


Alaska will route connections to AA flights via DFW and those that are traveling locally and find DAL more convenient will go there. It's no different than operating to BWI/IAD/DCA, where AS can offer connections via AA at DCA, but not necessarily at BWI and IAD as much. Or JFK/EWR, where AA may offer more connecting opportunities at JFK than EWR. The Dallas/Fort Worth area MSA is over 7,000,000 people and growing. It's the largest in Texas, largest in the South/Southwest, 4th largest in the U.S.A, and 10th largest in the Americas. There is more than enough traffic in the Dallas area to support flights at both airports.


:bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: 100% agree. No reason they can't. LAX SNA coexist. DFW/DAL will or should be fine. The high value of DAL gates and there ever expanding map AS should be fine.
 
routeplanner
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:16 am

lavalampluva wrote:
Just seems like AS/VX isn't thinking clearly about this. Between DAL and DFW they only operate a small handful of flights. And operating from two neighboring airports just makes connections impossible.


DAL and DFW as two distinct markets. DAL fits very nicely into plans, and the constraints under which partnership with AA in the markets enhances AA autonomy at DFW and AS autonomy at DAL and DFW.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:54 am

lavalampluva wrote:
Just seems like AS/VX isn't thinking clearly about this. Between DAL and DFW they only operate a small handful of flights. And operating from two neighboring airports just makes connections impossible.


Not thinking clearly? I can assure you, that a great deal of time went into this decision. AS operates to several metro areas where there are multiple commercial options & has been successful doing so, including NYC, WAS, LA Basin & the Bay Area. I can assure you AS will make something good for themselves with 2 DAL gates & yes, you can expect both DAL & DFW to Same Cities ie ... SEA, SAN, SJC, SFO & PDX.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
USAirKid
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:07 am

EA CO AS wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
One of the theories I've put out there is that AS would serve AA's hubs from DAL. They're already all big cities. They might pick up some feed from AA code shares. Finally, passengers could earn AA miles on them.

This all presumes though that DAL/DFW are not coterminals for the purposes of AS's agreement with the DOJ for the VX merger.


The final order from DOJ identifies both DAL and DFW as "Key AA Airports" under the proposed final agreement, which can be found here:

https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/file/915971/download


Thank you for that. So my idea is moot.

Also, per that agreement DAL & DFW are the same market. (They both have the same City Market ID of 30194) So if AA flies to a market from DFW and AS flies to a market from DAL, AA is not allowed to put its code on the AS flight, and AS isn't allowed to put its code on the AA flight.

That being said AAdvantage miles can still be earned on a AS flight out of DAL, so there is some value there.
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
How do you know they haven't shown willingness to put up cash for DAL access? If they were, to whom?


They haven't offered enough to the gate holders (VX and WN) to convince them to sell (or at least try to sell). Based on Alaska's statement that they'll stay at both DFW and DAL, it sounds like they also haven't offered Alaska enough post-merger to convince them to try to sell. And frankly, Delta's current set-up makes a tremendous amount of sense from a business perspective, so there's little incentive to change it.

jbs2886 wrote:
Edit: I'm not sure how not launching SAN-DFW means they won't do SAN-DAL. They have significantly emphasized California markets since the VA acquisition, so that analysis has changed.


Doesn't mean they won't--but I'm not at all convinced that they will, either. Right now, AA serves SAN-DFW and WN serves SAN-DAL (similarly, AA flies SJC-DFW and WN flies SJC-DAL), so this isn't exactly an untapped market--and AA & WN both have better feed at the Dallas end. There are a lot of holes in the SAN and SJC networks that AS could potentially fill, and I'm not at all convinced that DAL rises to the top of any priority list for those two airports.
 
jbs2886
Topic Author
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:56 pm

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
How do you know they haven't shown willingness to put up cash for DAL access? If they were, to whom?


They haven't offered enough to the gate holders (VX and WN) to convince them to sell (or at least try to sell). Based on Alaska's statement that they'll stay at both DFW and DAL, it sounds like they also haven't offered Alaska enough post-merger to convince them to try to sell. And frankly, Delta's current set-up makes a tremendous amount of sense from a business perspective, so there's little incentive to change it.

jbs2886 wrote:
Edit: I'm not sure how not launching SAN-DFW means they won't do SAN-DAL. They have significantly emphasized California markets since the VA acquisition, so that analysis has changed.


Doesn't mean they won't--but I'm not at all convinced that they will, either. Right now, AA serves SAN-DFW and WN serves SAN-DAL (similarly, AA flies SJC-DFW and WN flies SJC-DAL), so this isn't exactly an untapped market--and AA & WN both have better feed at the Dallas end. There are a lot of holes in the SAN and SJC networks that AS could potentially fill, and I'm not at all convinced that DAL rises to the top of any priority list for those two airports.


I still don't understand how you can just say as a fact they haven't offered enough. We all know neither airline will sell except for an astronomical, and uneconomical, amount. Do you have facts they made offers, and if so, how much and to whom? Otherwise, you can't just say they haven't shown a willingness to put up cash and it wasn't high enough. The only fact you can say is Delta has not purchased gates/access and that the current circumstances are good.
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:00 pm

USAirKid wrote:
So if AA flies to a market from DFW and AS flies to a market from DAL, AA is not allowed to put its code on the AS flight, and AS isn't allowed to put its code on the AA flight.


Another section stipulates that AA is not allowed to put its code on any AS/VX flight at all from DFW or DAL, even if they're not competing head-to-head.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:09 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
All this means for DL is one gate only. They've got to be pissed. In fact, I wonder if AS is keeping the flights simply to keep DL from expanding at DAL as they wanted. That means WN can't complain about DL "squatting" anymore.


Those were my thoughts exactly. You can keep your codeshare buddy AA happy by preventing WN from potentially snagging 2 more DAL gates, while at the same time keeping your divorcee DL upset that there's no chance they can do anything but continue with the leftover crumbs from WN. It's brilliant!

AS can make DAL work much better than Virgin ever could by using their LGA/DCA-DAL slots/routes as 1-stop thru flights to the likes of LAS, SAN, LAX, etc. where AS is a relatively strong player. The few beyond-perimeter slots means, many NYC/WAS-beyond perimeter pax will take a quick 40 minute enroute stop over trekking out to IAD or JFK/EWR for a nonstop.
 
bob75013
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
phxsanslcpdx wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
How do you know they haven't shown willingness to put up cash for DAL access? If they were, to whom?


T

I still don't understand how you can just say as a fact they haven't offered enough. We all know neither airline will sell except for an astronomical, and uneconomical, amount. Do you have facts they made offers, and if so, how much and to whom? Otherwise, you can't just say they haven't shown a willingness to put up cash and it wasn't high enough. The only fact you can say is Delta has not purchased gates/access and that the current circumstances are good.


If DL had offered enough, it would have gates a KDAL. The FACT that it doesn't have gates proves that it has not offered enough.

UA gave DL a shot at the gates that eventually went to WN. DL didn't offer UA enough for them either. That's why DL didn't get those gates.

Oh, and about "We all know neither airline will sell except for an astronomical, and uneconomical, amount" WN seems to disagree with you about the amount being uneconomical
 
phluser
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:35 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
The few beyond-perimeter slots means, many NYC/WAS-beyond perimeter pax will take a quick 40 minute enroute stop over trekking out to IAD or JFK/EWR for a nonstop.


A one stop, even if no plane change, will likely add on more than 40 minutes than a comparable nonstop. Probably it would be atleast 1 hr 20 mins. Just checking southwest.com and it has a LAX-MKE-LGA (no plane change) for 6h 50 mins, vs. a nonstop on AA on LAX-JFK at 5h. 36 mins.
 
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william
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:40 pm

I thought the Love agreement stated that a carrier could not serve Love and DFW at the same time? Or was that just targeted at SWA? Could SWA keep its presence at Love and serve DFW too?
 
phluser
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:50 pm

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
I'm not at all convinced that DAL rises to the top of any priority list for those two airports.


The question is how many departures AS intends to keep out of DAL+DFW. Outside of California, Alaska and the PacNW, it'll likely be next largest point of presence, so it'd be pretty important, if not top of a priority list.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:57 pm

phluser wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
The few beyond-perimeter slots means, many NYC/WAS-beyond perimeter pax will take a quick 40 minute enroute stop over trekking out to IAD or JFK/EWR for a nonstop.


A one stop, even if no plane change, will likely add on more than 40 minutes than a comparable nonstop. Probably it would be atleast 1 hr 20 mins. Just checking southwest.com and it has a LAX-MKE-LGA (no plane change) for 6h 50 mins, vs. a nonstop on AA on LAX-JFK at 5h. 36 mins.


Absolutely it's more like 1 hr 20. The 40 minutes is the amount of time at gate, which for a thru flight vs. a turn, is pretty average.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:59 pm

william wrote:
I thought the Love agreement stated that a carrier could not serve Love and DFW at the same time? Or was that just targeted at SWA? Could SWA keep its presence at Love and serve DFW too?


DL serves both airports. WN's rule is the artificial gate cap at DAL to break the Wright Amendment. WN could serve DFW if they wanted to, but have never felt the "LUV" for that idea.
 
jplatts
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:04 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
All this means for DL is one gate only. They've got to be pissed. In fact, I wonder if AS is keeping the flights simply to keep DL from expanding at DAL as they wanted. That means WN can't complain about DL "squatting" anymore.


Those were my thoughts exactly. You can keep your codeshare buddy AA happy by preventing WN from potentially snagging 2 more DAL gates, while at the same time keeping your divorcee DL upset that there's no chance they can do anything but continue with the leftover crumbs from WN. It's brilliant!

AS can make DAL work much better than Virgin ever could by using their LGA/DCA-DAL slots/routes as 1-stop thru flights to the likes of LAS, SAN, LAX, etc. where AS is a relatively strong player. The few beyond-perimeter slots means, many NYC/WAS-beyond perimeter pax will take a quick 40 minute enroute stop over trekking out to IAD or JFK/EWR for a nonstop.


There will be 4 beyond-perimeter nonstops between DCA and LAX starting on April 24th, and Alaska already operates nonstop service from DCA to LAX.

American already has a beyond-perimeter nonstop between DCA and LAS.

There are no beyond-perimeter nonstops between SAN and DCA, but United has nonstops from SAN to IAD, and Alaska and Southwest have nonstops from SAN to BWI.
 
jplatts
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:17 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
william wrote:
I thought the Love agreement stated that a carrier could not serve Love and DFW at the same time? Or was that just targeted at SWA? Could SWA keep its presence at Love and serve DFW too?


DL serves both airports. WN's rule is the artificial gate cap at DAL to break the Wright Amendment. WN could serve DFW if they wanted to, but have never felt the "LUV" for that idea.


Southwest Airlines can serve both DAL and DFW, but restrictions in the 5-party agreement between Southwest, American, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW Airport Board currently require Southwest Airlines to give up gates at DAL if it chooses to operate out of DFW. The provision requiring Southwest to give up gates at DAL if it chooses to operate out of DFW expires in 2025, and this provision can be changed if Southwest, American, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW Airport Board all agree to the change.
 
superjeff
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:22 pm

flyingcat wrote:
Passedv1 wrote:
What is the real deal with the lie flat product? You come on A.N and the lack of a lie-flat product precludes someone from competing on a trans-con. You don't have lie-flat...don't even bother.

You listen to AS upper management and they say that passengers (at least their pax) prefer a traditional FC with a generous upgrade policy to a lie-flat product with no chance for upgrade except for the most elite of travelers. How important are those lie-flat passengers to the profitability of a route?


It is extremely important for the corporate paid First class market which demands lie flat and will exclude carriers if they don't have a competitive product. I'm not saying that they can't fly these markets but that to the old VX gaining additional frequency was paramount as their model needed high share of a premium market. Alaska would not be able to generate the same yield on this type of route which is why they have a higher mix of mid and short haul routes with a lower mix of First.

I would actually no longer call Alaska's FC traditional, it is an outlier in the longhaul transcon market. Legacy complimentary upgrades are getting more rare, as cabin density increases and minimum revenue goals are decreasing the amount of elites.

The economics and priorities of Alaska's network are a whole different case as are what they would be willing to trade DCA/LGA slots for.


Considering that most domestic First Class in the U.S. is upgrades, I don't think it really matters. 99% of passengers today pay coach or lower; the 1% that might pay full fare F are more likely to be on AA anyway as they're the only one offering a true First Class product on the routes.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:25 pm

It does seem like AS would be smarter to focus on Alaska strong holds. A place like LGA seems too competitive and not their clientele. Maybe focus on LAX, SFO, SEA even SAN/SJC/LAS with those slots? Places Alaska has more FFs to help out on the other side.
 
jplatts
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:00 pm

william wrote:
I thought the Love agreement stated that a carrier could not serve Love and DFW at the same time? Or was that just targeted at SWA? Could SWA keep its presence at Love and serve DFW too?


The 5-party agreement does not prevent airlines other from Southwest from serving both Dallas Love Field and DFW Airport, even though the agreement limits Dallas Love Field to 20 gates. In fact, the 5-party agreement actually allowed American Airlines and Continental Airlines to continue to operate out of both Dallas Love Field and DFW Airport, even after the repeal of the Wright Amendment.
 
grbauc
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:53 pm

superjeff wrote:
flyingcat wrote:
Passedv1 wrote:
What is the real deal with the lie flat product? You come on A.N and the lack of a lie-flat product precludes someone from competing on a trans-con. You don't have lie-flat...don't even bother.

You listen to AS upper management and they say that passengers (at least their pax) prefer a traditional FC with a generous upgrade policy to a lie-flat product with no chance for upgrade except for the most elite of travelers. How important are those lie-flat passengers to the profitability of a route?


It is extremely important for the corporate paid First class market which demands lie flat and will exclude carriers if they don't have a competitive product. I'm not saying that they can't fly these markets but that to the old VX gaining additional frequency was paramount as their model needed high share of a premium market. Alaska would not be able to generate the same yield on this type of route which is why they have a higher mix of mid and short haul routes with a lower mix of First.

I would actually no longer call Alaska's FC traditional, it is an outlier in the longhaul transcon market. Legacy complimentary upgrades are getting more rare, as cabin density increases and minimum revenue goals are decreasing the amount of elites.

The economics and priorities of Alaska's network are a whole different case as are what they would be willing to trade DCA/LGA slots for.


Considering that most domestic First Class in the U.S. is upgrades, I don't think it really matters. 99% of passengers today pay coach or lower; the 1% that might pay full fare F are more likely to be on AA anyway as they're the only one offering a true First Class product on the routes.


Id challenge that notion. I don't have numbers right now but FC fairs have been rationalized and Airlines have been selling more and more FC seats. AS is one of the airlines that started the trend I believe. I routinely fly FC all around the Country for $800 on average.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15412
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:36 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
It does seem like AS would be smarter to focus on Alaska strong holds. A place like LGA seems too competitive and not their clientele. Maybe focus on LAX, SFO, SEA even SAN/SJC/LAS with those slots? Places Alaska has more FFs to help out on the other side.


Again, when you're discussing LGA slots, you're talking about extremely valuable assets, and AS isn't about to give up on those without trying to make them work in their network first.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
USAirKid
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:42 am

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
So if AA flies to a market from DFW and AS flies to a market from DAL, AA is not allowed to put its code on the AS flight, and AS isn't allowed to put its code on the AA flight.


Another section stipulates that AA is not allowed to put its code on any AS/VX flight at all from DFW or DAL, even if they're not competing head-to-head.


Ah thank you. I reread it now that I'm not so tired, and that popped right out.

That being said my initial point stands. AS can access the AA FF base, which will help versus what VX was doing.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:38 am

EA CO AS wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
It does seem like AS would be smarter to focus on Alaska strong holds. A place like LGA seems too competitive and not their clientele. Maybe focus on LAX, SFO, SEA even SAN/SJC/LAS with those slots? Places Alaska has more FFs to help out on the other side.


Again, when you're discussing LGA slots, you're talking about extremely valuable assets, and AS isn't about to give up on those without trying to make them work in their network first.


I have been rather amazed at how many A.net regulars, think AS would willingly toss away access to places like LGA or DAL. I think one needs to ask themselves, why would one of the most intelligently run airlines in America, hastily discard valuable assets that they just acquired in an expensive buyout of another carrier?

I would think those in the Emerald Tower are looking at every possible way to get as much out of the VX merger as they can, which keeps investors happy.

When AS picked up SI, I think they made a mistake by ridding themselves of the DCA service via MSP. But they were still a small carrier that wanted those M80's & hadn't given much thought to anything west of Arizona. I can't say AS would have succeeded, but it would have had a presence for when they finally expanded in all directions.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:33 pm

DAL is one thing, LGA/DCA are another. I don't expect them to drop the slots but DAL is - to me - a much different animal than LGA/DCA. For those, they'll need to do one-stop service which means that either they keep DAL-LGA/DCA but on the E175 or they use another midpoint. THat midpoint becomes somewhat of a new strategy/play versus just flying places from their west coast strongholds.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:21 pm

Will Alaska make DAL a base the size of San Diego or San Jose and add horizon or Skywest services to DAL?
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1113
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:28 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
Will Alaska make DAL a base the size of San Diego or San Jose and add horizon or Skywest services to DAL?


Not with only 2 gates.
 
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SANFan
Posts: 5114
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:23 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Again, when you're discussing LGA slots, you're talking about extremely valuable assets, and AS isn't about to give up on those without trying to make them work in their network first.

Agreed. As support for your statement, I located a thread from a year ago (by Enilria) about the 25 largest un-served nonstop markets involving the US:
Was doing some digging and these are the largest USA markets in annual O&D traffic from MIDT that do not have any non-stop service in the past year as of June 2016. Int'l or domestic. Some surprising ones.

#1 LAX-LGA
#2 LAX-SGN
#3 DCA-SAN


Two of the top 3 on the list might be of interest; nonstops are of course impossible at this time, but direct, no-change flights in the 2 domestic markets just might be of interest to AAG...

bb
 
SeaDoo
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:40 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
With recent additions by AS at MSP (SAN, SFO), bringing the number of cities out of MSP to four, any chance of a MSP-DAL flight? WN has seemed reluctant to add it when it would likely be successful at 1-2x daily.


I don't know much about Sun Country, but it would be interesting to see Alaska get in a relationship with them.
 
TheGeordielad
Posts: 905
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:18 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
Will Alaska make DAL a base the size of San Diego or San Jose and add horizon or Skywest services to DAL?


Not with only 2 gates.

Is there a possibility that they would acquire more gates or is there no room?
 
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Polot
Posts: 9481
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:37 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
Will Alaska make DAL a base the size of San Diego or San Jose and add horizon or Skywest services to DAL?


Not with only 2 gates.

Is there a possibility that they would acquire more gates or is there no room?

There is no room. DAL is restricted to a max of 20 gates by law, and remote parking is not allowed- everything must depart from a gate. Southwest has preferential use of 16 (fully used), United 2 (via Continental merger, currently subleasing to WN), and American 2 (currently subleased to VX/AS as a result of forced divestiture from AA/US merger).

DL is currently fighting to maintain access to DAL (they were leasing AA's gates before the forced divestiture) and WN is currently forced to accommodate them on court order until the whole mess is cleared up in the courts. Southwest would happily eat up any possible open gate space.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:14 pm

SANFan wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Again, when you're discussing LGA slots, you're talking about extremely valuable assets, and AS isn't about to give up on those without trying to make them work in their network first.

Agreed. As support for your statement, I located a thread from a year ago (by Enilria) about the 25 largest un-served nonstop markets involving the US:
Was doing some digging and these are the largest USA markets in annual O&D traffic from MIDT that do not have any non-stop service in the past year as of June 2016. Int'l or domestic. Some surprising ones.

#1 LAX-LGA
#2 LAX-SGN
#3 DCA-SAN


Two of the top 3 on the list might be of interest; nonstops are of course impossible at this time, but direct, no-change flights in the 2 domestic markets just might be of interest to AAG...

bb


Currently, the cheapest JFK to LAX O/W tickets go for about $180. A one stop from LGA via DAL would definitely have to be a lot cheaper, since it will be operated from CTB for AS. So a route that depends on O/D traffic from LGA to LAX would have to probably be priced at around $150 to get people interested. Remember, there is no airtrain to LGA, and the public transportation option to LGA is only probably 10 to 15 minutes quicker than terminal 4 of JFK airport. And on top of that, no FC travellers would fly that when there are hourly flights out of JFK with lie flat beds.

So the question is if it makes any sense for AS to only charge $150 O/W from LGA to LAX making a stop in DAL.

I would think you can sell solo DAL to LGA + DAL to LAX tickets for more than that.
 
username21
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:31 pm

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:06 pm

AS announces service SEA/PDX/SJC/SAN-DAL with e175s and a320s.

Image

https://blog.alaskaair.com/destinations ... -love-dal/

Additionally: "This summer, Airbus 320 jets will be replaced with Embraer 175 jets on three daily flights to New York’s LaGuardia Airport. Three daily A320 flights to Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. will be replaced by E175s in early 2018."

And: “What’s next for us at Love Field? I can’t offer any hints right now, but it’s safe to say Alaska Airlines will continue to have a presence in both Dallas airports for the foreseeable future,”-- Kirby
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 pm

username21 wrote:
AS announces service SEA/PDX/SJC/SAN-DAL with e175s and a320s.

Image

https://blog.alaskaair.com/destinations ... -love-dal/

Additionally: "This summer, Airbus 320 jets will be replaced with Embraer 175 jets on three daily flights to New York’s LaGuardia Airport. Three daily A320 flights to Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. will be replaced by E175s in early 2018."

And: “What’s next for us at Love Field? I can’t offer any hints right now, but it’s safe to say Alaska Airlines will continue to have a presence in both Dallas airports for the foreseeable future,”-- Kirby


These are the same cities & aircraft types that have been speculated upon for DAL from those in the know. This is the DAL plan, I like they are playing to the strength of the DAL gates they obtained & it looks like they are serious about making both work. I know some cross-fleeting is due, but the A-320 DAL-SEA caught me off guard. More cool A-320 adds where the plane best fits in the greater combined route network to come.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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Polot
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Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:53 pm

RWA380 wrote:
I know some cross-fleeting is due, but the A-320 DAL-SEA caught me off guard. More cool A-320 adds where the plane best fits in the greater combined route network to come.

Most of the recent mainline adds announced have been with A320s. Definitely appears VX has more slack in their fleet especially as AS starts rationalizing VX's network (i.e. replacing the LGA/DCA flights with E175s, which frees up the A320s for somewhere else).

DAL is basically turning into a E175 "hub".
 
jplatts
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Polot wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Not with only 2 gates.

Is there a possibility that they would acquire more gates or is there no room?

There is no room. DAL is restricted to a max of 20 gates by law, and remote parking is not allowed- everything must depart from a gate. Southwest has preferential use of 16 (fully used), United 2 (via Continental merger, currently subleasing to WN), and American 2 (currently subleased to VX/AS as a result of forced divestiture from AA/US merger).

DL is currently fighting to maintain access to DAL (they were leasing AA's gates before the forced divestiture) and WN is currently forced to accommodate them on court order until the whole mess is cleared up in the courts. Southwest would happily eat up any possible open gate space.


Congress does have the authority to amend or repeal section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, which limits Dallas Love Field to 20 gates. In addition, there is a loophole in the 5-party agreement between Southwest, American, the city of Dallas, the city of Fort Worth, and the DFW Airport Board that renders the entire 5-party agreement invalid in the event that the agreement becomes legally unenforceable. Congress can and should enact legislation that would restrict American Airlines's ability to control gates used solely by competitors at both DFW and DAL, and such legislation could be written in a manner that could render the 5-party agreement legally unenforceable.
 
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Polot
Posts: 9481
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:01 pm

jplatts wrote:
Congress does have the authority to amend or repeal section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, which limits Dallas Love Field to 20 gates. In addition, there is a loophole in the 5-party agreement between Southwest, American, the city of Dallas, the city of Fort Worth, and the DFW Airport Board that renders the entire 5-party agreement invalid in the event that the agreement becomes legally unenforceable. Congress can and should enact legislation that would restrict American Airlines's ability to control gates used solely by competitors at both DFW and DAL, and such legislation could be written in a manner that could render the 5-party agreement legally unenforceable.

Congress can completely eliminate all legislation regarding DAL and make it a free and open airport able to do whatever it wants like any other airport. But DAL isn't exactly most Congressmen's top priority. Look how long it took just to get the old Wright Amendment repealed.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4994
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:47 pm

username21 wrote:
AS announces service SEA/PDX/SJC/SAN-DAL with e175s and a320s.

Image

https://blog.alaskaair.com/destinations ... -love-dal/

Additionally: "This summer, Airbus 320 jets will be replaced with Embraer 175 jets on three daily flights to New York’s LaGuardia Airport. Three daily A320 flights to Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. will be replaced by E175s in early 2018."

And: “What’s next for us at Love Field? I can’t offer any hints right now, but it’s safe to say Alaska Airlines will continue to have a presence in both Dallas airports for the foreseeable future,”-- Kirby


When does the new service start?
 
JayWings
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:53 pm

I'm excited for AS to finish replacing the old 400's with the new delivery 900's and start expanding mainline AS again! All the new adds are awesome and really strengthen the route network, but I'm ready for some more 737 routes! Come on 2018!
 
superjeff
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri May 05, 2017 3:03 pm

Polot wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Congress can completely eliminate all legislation regarding DAL and make it a free and open airport able to do whatever it wants like any other airport. But DAL isn't exactly most Congressmen's top priority. Look how long it took just to get the old Wright Amendment repealed.


Dallas is a major city and Texas is the second largest state in the Union, with a lot of seats in congress. If it came to that, I think you'd see a lot of Texas congressmen and women lobbying pretty hard one way or the other, including those from districts far from Dallas. There's a lot of "Texas Pride" down here :-)
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri May 05, 2017 4:00 pm

Actually, most of the early efforts to amend/eliminate Wright came from pols outside Texas. The Shelby (R-AL) Amendment added MS,KS and AL. The Bond (R-MO) Amendment added MO, but only after AA choked TWA out. Texas pols mostly didn't want to get between AA and WN until WN started pressing the issue and Sam Johnson and Jeb Hensarling got involved.

Today, there is little reason for a pol from outside Dallas to care, so any further modification would almost certainly need to be local.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: Alaska to Keep DAL

Fri May 05, 2017 6:17 pm

jplatts wrote:

Congress does have the authority to amend or repeal section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, which limits Dallas Love Field to 20 gates. In addition, there is a loophole in the 5-party agreement between Southwest, American, the city of Dallas, the city of Fort Worth, and the DFW Airport Board that renders the entire 5-party agreement invalid in the event that the agreement becomes legally unenforceable. Congress can and should enact legislation that would restrict American Airlines's ability to control gates used solely by competitors at both DFW and DAL, and such legislation could be written in a manner that could render the 5-party agreement legally unenforceable.


Which party to the five party agreement wants to change the agreement?

What control does AA have over the gates that Alaska obtained through its merger with Virgin? For that matter what control does AA have over any other airlines gates at DFW?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart

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