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kitplane01
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757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:54 am

It seems the 757 has is more popular as a freighter than the 767. There are 280 757F in operation, and 204 767F's in operation (says wikipedia). But reading airliners.net one would think the 767 has a longer/better future. Does the 767F have a longer/better future, and why?

It's hard to find a cost comparison of the 767F vs the 757F, but on a CASM basis the 757 is about 3% cheaper, says Leeham.
https://leehamnews.com/2014/05/26/can-a ... -the-757w/
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:25 am

Keep in mind FedEx still has dozens (50 or so?) of new 767-300Fs on order, and 767-300ERs are lined up for conversion slots at the moment. I think both the 757 and 767 freighter fleets have plenty of life ahead of them, but since 767s are still coming off the line, they'll likely be around quite a bit longer.
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c933103
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:29 am

one would think Cost per Available Seat Miles is not a good metric in determining the cost of operating those freighters as they are to be used for transport cargos...
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B777LRF
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:39 am

They serve two different missions. One can load 20 ULDs on the main-deck, has a total payload of 50-ish tons and trans-atlantic range. The other holds 15 ULDs on the main-deck, total payload around 25-30 tons and has a 4-5 hour range. There is nothing presently on the market which can replace either; the A321F is still a long ways off, and can never match the 757F in either payload or range. The A332F is a step above the 767-300F, both in payload, volume and range.

Put it this way: There are way more 737s than 777s flying, but that does not necessarily mean the 737 is always the better aircraft.
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kitplane01
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:45 am

c933103 wrote:
one would think Cost per Available Seat Miles is not a good metric in determining the cost of operating those freighters as they are to be used for transport cargos...


Totally agree. It seems hard to find cost-per-kilometer-ton or cost-per-kilometer-cubit-meter
 
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kitplane01
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:46 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
Keep in mind FedEx still has dozens (50 or so?) of new 767-300Fs on order, and 767-300ERs are lined up for conversion slots at the moment. I think both the 757 and 767 freighter fleets have plenty of life ahead of them, but since 767s are still coming off the line, they'll likely be around quite a bit longer.


Are there also lots of 757's also lined up for conversion?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:49 am

B777LRF wrote:
They serve two different missions. One can load 20 ULDs on the main-deck, has a total payload of 50-ish tons and trans-atlantic range. The other holds 15 ULDs on the main-deck, total payload around 25-30 tons and has a 4-5 hour range. There is nothing presently on the market which can replace either; the A321F is still a long ways off, and can never match the 757F in either payload or range. The A332F is a step above the 767-300F, both in payload, volume and range.

Put it this way: There are way more 737s than 777s flying, but that does not necessarily mean the 737 is always the better aircraft.


My understanding is that both the 757F and 767F are typically used intra-continent, and not to cross the ocean. For example, the 767's that Amazon is buying are serving routes that the 757s could also fly. So I'm curious about the economics ... are 767s cheaper per unit of cargo that the 757s would be?
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:11 am

'Cheaper per unit of cargo' means nothing unless you can fill up the boat.

'Trans-atlantic range' is just another way of saying 'good for 8-9 hours'. For your information, however, DHL are using the 767s on inter-continental routes, albeit I appreciate that's a very small sample of the total 767F fleet. The reason most 767Fs are used intra-continental, is quite simply the size of the US integrator market.
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anjin
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:27 am

Cargo operators prefer the 757 for a simple reason - cost. There are plenty of 767-200's around but they prefer 767-300's so they can cover long haul also. The market for 757's is pretty competitive its going to be a difficult aircraft to replace in 10 years time
 
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Channex757
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:41 am

Recent conversions show how the market might go. Some cargo operators have bought into the 737-400F as a good volume freighter with low acquisition and running costs. Eventually this should lead to a 737-800F conversion program for the same sort of duty where payload is less important than volume.

For a lot of 757 operators a 737-800F should be very attractive once the necessary feedstock starts becoming available for the converters
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:44 am

The 757 is more popular as a freighter because it fell out of favour as a pax carrier first and cargo airlines purchased them and had cargo conversions. The 767 line is still open and new freighters are being built.
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:57 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Recent conversions show how the market might go. Some cargo operators have bought into the 737-400F as a good volume freighter with low acquisition and running costs. Eventually this should lead to a 737-800F conversion program for the same sort of duty where payload is less important than volume.

For a lot of 757 operators a 737-800F should be very attractive once the necessary feedstock starts becoming available for the converters


The first 738F was supposed to roll out in May. The first 73GF is already test flying out of TLV. As far as I can see, the 738 is the perfect 722F replacement, where the 734F comes up a little short on payload.
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:16 pm

The 738F will be ideal for UPS and FedEx, where volume is more important for shipping boxes and mail. They have aircraft to handle heavier cargo and long range such as the 767 and 777F, so the 738F slots in to do those nightly package runs all over the globe.

All it's going to take is feedstock. Airlines retiring 738s in suitable numbers that will drive secondhand prices down. The A321F stalled for just that reason; not enough secondhand decent candidates at the right money. Once the converters get going in numbers then the 757F should start dwindling down as no way can it beat a 738F in the bulk of operations freight dogs want them for.
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:27 pm

I think in 5 years there will be more B767F than B757Fs but both are good for freighters.
 
sdf880
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:45 pm

Channex757 wrote:
The 738F will be ideal for UPS and FedEx, where volume is more important for shipping boxes and mail. They have aircraft to handle heavier cargo and long range such as the 767 and 777F, so the 738F slots in to do those nightly package runs all over the globe.

All it's going to take is feedstock. Airlines retiring 738s in suitable numbers that will drive secondhand prices down. The A321F stalled for just that reason; not enough secondhand decent candidates at the right money. Once the converters get going in numbers then the 757F should start dwindling down as no way can it beat a 738F in the bulk of operations freight dogs want them for.



I don't think you'll see UPS buy anything other than widebody aircraft from now on!
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:02 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
flyDTW1992 wrote:
Keep in mind FedEx still has dozens (50 or so?) of new 767-300Fs on order, and 767-300ERs are lined up for conversion slots at the moment. I think both the 757 and 767 freighter fleets have plenty of life ahead of them, but since 767s are still coming off the line, they'll likely be around quite a bit longer.


Are there also lots of 757's also lined up for conversion?


Not too many now, but FedEx converted or is converting almost 120 to freighters, and is acquiring used 757s everywhere for parts as well from whoever is offloading 757s (FedEx's 757s were purchased all cash).
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:16 pm

What's optimal depends upon desired volume, and assumes that volume is more important than payload, where the differences may lead to a different decision.

The 737-800 is gonna give you 12 ULDs (88x125 will be used for this comparison).
The 757-200 is gonna give you 15 ULDs (PCF version).
The 767-200 is gonna give you 19 ULDs.
The 767-300 is gonna give you 28 ULDs, 24 on the main deck, plus 4 ULDs in the forward cargo hold (which has a large cargo door).

Different configurations can put more the belly of the 767-300s, but the 88x125 is a good measure, because it's a common large ULD.

Although various carriers have made the 737 work as a freighter, there is an inherent issue with the proximity of the wing and engines to the cargo door, raising the opportunity for debilitating ramp damage if everyone isn't working at the highest level of care. (I know, I know, everyone always works at the highest level of care, but the fact is that it's an issue.)
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:25 pm

With the 738F that's not so much of an issue as the door is further forward. Same goes for the 734F. Both have more fuselage frames than the 733F or 73GF so it's some extra feet away from the engine cowls.

It'll still need a little extra care but the experience of the 734F at other carriers will read across to the new 738F.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:44 am

sdf880 wrote:


I don't think you'll see UPS buy anything other than widebody aircraft from now on!



Can you tell more about this? How will UPS move cargo from secondary and tertiary cities? Hard to imagine Cheyenne supporting a large aircraft, and it's a long way to truck from anywhere.
 
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:43 am

kitplane01 wrote:
sdf880 wrote:


I don't think you'll see UPS buy anything other than widebody aircraft from now on!



Can you tell more about this? How will UPS move cargo from secondary and tertiary cities? Hard to imagine Cheyenne supporting a large aircraft, and it's a long way to truck from anywhere.


It's 2 hours by road from DEN, and recently the feeders fly C212s there. With their contractors they can do just fine without 737s. Heck, they serve communities around here with 55 year old Beech Dutchesses.
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TWA772LR
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:43 am

Channex757 wrote:
The 738F will be ideal for UPS and FedEx, where volume is more important for shipping boxes and mail. They have aircraft to handle heavier cargo and long range such as the 767 and 777F, so the 738F slots in to do those nightly package runs all over the globe.

All it's going to take is feedstock. Airlines retiring 738s in suitable numbers that will drive secondhand prices down. The A321F stalled for just that reason; not enough secondhand decent candidates at the right money. Once the converters get going in numbers then the 757F should start dwindling down as no way can it beat a 738F in the bulk of operations freight dogs want them for.

Aren't the same reasons why you state the 738F is the perfect size, the same reason why FedEx took the 757? FX took it to replace the 727 (oddly, one of the few airlines in the world to actually use the 757 in its intended role!), while also seeing an increase in freight and mail.

I'm not disputing that the 738 isn't going to be a great freighter, I'm just asking why FX would order it when they just bought over 100 757s.
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rmp1kxk
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:15 am

Let the UPS images explain this best.
Image
Image

A UPS 757 holds 15 A2N Containers (AAY prefix) on the main cargo deck and loose stacked packages equal to about 1 A2N in Belly 31 and 2 A2N's in Belly 34. It has a MTOW of 255,000 lb.
Great for smaller city destinations out of a hub or a second aircraft to a bigger city. Example would be UPS sends a 757 from SDF to JAN every night, but BWI gets a 767 from SDF and a 757 from RFD.

A UPS 767 holds 24 Containers on the main cargo deck, 1 and 13 have to be a A2N, but the other 22 can be A1N containers (AAD prefix) and hold more volume. The lower deck can hold 7 L9N containers (AAZ prefix) and loose stacked packages equal to about 2 A2N's in the belly. It has a MTOW of 412,000 lb.
Without a doubt, the most dependable workhorse of the fleet. Has just the right capacity and lift needed to serve major cities small package volume domestically and heavy cargo from Asia and Europe.

Image
Image
Image

So to answer the question, both are great aircraft and have different roles in the overnight delivery market. But for the future the 767F seems to be a bit brighter. It is still being produced off the line and backlogged for conversion. Hope this helped.
 
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Channex757
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:35 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I'm not disputing that the 738 isn't going to be a great freighter, I'm just asking why FX would order it when they just bought over 100 757s.

Because they are not going to last forever. Even at FX low usage the day will come when there aren't any hours left on those airframes.

If fuel prices go wild again the 757 also looks like a liability compared to a 738. All it takes is another Gulf war or revolution in Saudi Arabia and the speculating jackals will drive oil through the roof.
 
sdf880
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Re: 757F vs 767F

Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:00 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
sdf880 wrote:


I don't think you'll see UPS buy anything other than widebody aircraft from now on!



Can you tell more about this? How will UPS move cargo from secondary and tertiary cities? Hard to imagine Cheyenne supporting a large aircraft, and it's a long way to truck from anywhere.


Several things I have noticed. 1, the DC-8's and 727's have been gone 7+ years and no narrow body replacement!

I think they will continue to sub-contract out the feeder routes and stick to the main stations (gateways) with mainline service. Leave it to the feeder operators to upgrade aircraft size if need-be.

SDF airspace is getting tapped out at peak times at night eventually I believe you'll see all widebody aircraft scheduled (move more freight same amount of a/c) with an occasional 757 and the 757's mainly staying in the secondary hubs and focus cities.

My 2 cents, who knows for sure?

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