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B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:51 pm

United787 wrote:
I think a lot of people on A-Net today can't distinguish between this event and the recent trend of events caused by distributive/abusive passengers. These are two different types of events born of very different circumstances. United treated this event as though this passenger was one of those people, which he wasn't, at least not at the start. Through the implementation of proper procedures and well trained staff, this was completely avoidable, but United allowed it to get out of hand. FAIL FAIL FAIL.

And to think I met Oscar on Saturday at a restaurant and thanked him for saving United... I would have different words for him had I met him today. His response was terrible, I expected more.


He refused to leave the aircraft. I fail to see how that's not disruptive. The others left without incident. That should tell you something about his attitude

And for everyone who is "appalled" by this, WAKE UP. The police have been doing this for literally DECADES!!! It's how they're trained. It's widespread, systematic and usually a lot worse. I'm sorry that you guys have been so sheltered that you're now just seeing this, but for many their behavior comes as no surprise.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:51 pm

exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


Bravo! If we still had a respected user list, I would add you. Fair or not, when a cop tells you to get off the plane, it's up to you to get off the plane. You can try bullying the gate agent, but the police have the authority to go to step 3 -- MAKE, and it's entirely your choice as to how bruised you are going to be when getting off the plane. But that you are getting off the plane is not in doubt. It is the police's obligation not to back down, so confronting them is going to end in tears 100 percent of the time. The "doctor" was the self-important jerk. If the "doctor" had "patients in the morning", there was doubtless some other way that he could get home in time to see them. But fighting the cops is not going to make that happen.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
LMFNINJA
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:53 pm

exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


UA owes the passenger more than a refund. They will be sued and their insurers will respond and settle out of court for a handsome sum of money.

But don't think UA is the final arbiter as to what is paid to the passenger. The courts assume that role.
 
jbpdx
Posts: 742
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:54 pm

Airlines that directly compete with United on routes--particularly routes to Asia from say SFO--should consider boosting capacity to pick up passengers who will now avoid United. Unfortunately, race is also a factor in this PR nightmare.
Major airports with no PDX nonstops: MIA, FLL, TPA, IND, MSY, CLE, CVG, PIT, RDU; +BWI, +PHL, +YYZ
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:56 pm

F9Animal wrote:
ROSWELL41 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

I agree! I just think the police handled it so wrong, and major training needs to be done on the officer who hit him. He didn't deserve that, and I think most of us agree it could have been handled differently.


Training at McDonald's, that is. His career as a LEO should be over. Today.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:57 pm

tigamilla wrote:
ROSWELL41 wrote:
tigamilla wrote:

!!! What happened to simple human decency??? There is a way of doing things - and this clearly isn't it - this has struck a chord with fliers, (see twitter, see news channels), most paying customers expect to be treated better, and will probably vote with their wallets regardless of whether this was lawful or not, for most it is plainly disturbing. I think you are in the minority in your belief that this is acceptable. This has nothing to do with whether he was a doctor or not, there is simply no excuse that allows anyone (authority or not) to assault a law abiding citizen who is not harming anyone, least of all when the operational error came from the airline, also he wasn't denied boarding - he is clearly already settled into his seat before being forcibly removed. The authorities are here to keep us safe from criminals not harm innocent citizens!


I dispute:

1) He was involuntarily denied boarding despite your incorrect understanding of the meaning.

2) He became non law-abiding when he refused the instruction to deplane the aircraft.

I agree with you that it has nothing to do with his supposed profession.


Whether technically this was legal or not is irrelevant - for the world looking on, with no knowledge of the law or airline operations, this is a huge disaster, it looks terrible. Unfortunately for UA the video is very emotive in a bad way and it wont matter what side of the law the passenger was on...


True enough. But if it turns out as others have so bizarrely claimed that this episode is entirely the victims fault and that he did in fact break the law, I'd add that any business that wants to continue being in business would and should avoid at all costs the practice of turning paying and law abiding customers into criminals, and then hiding behind the subsequent assault because of the "criminality" of the now former customer.

Truly shameful and ridiculous behavior by united.
 
dochawk2
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:06 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:57 pm

I had a friend on that flight. He did not get video of the incident. He was about 10 rows aft of the altercation. The doctor was being very respectful, but emphatic, about his situation and pleading them to find someone else because of his patient the next day. Contrary to what someone else posted above, I do think there is a need difference between a doctor and a bricklayer. Not that one person is better than anther, but that laying a few rows of bricks does not have the same implications as assisting a human in need. From my friend's account, the whole event went from poorly handled by the gate agents to reprehensible by the security (or police). All in all, a HUGE black eye for United.
God, give us wings to fly!
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3437
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:58 pm

bioyuki wrote:
It's your opinion as to whether a Twitter user is 'ignorant' or isn't a 'good source of authority'.

A paying, non-violent passenger being bloodied and knocked unconscious by the police while being removed from an aircraft, I think everyone in this thread agrees that that's clearly a story.


It's not my opinion. The user clearly doesn't have knowledge of airlines and policies. Read the comments. He doesn't understand that passengers can be bumped after boarding. The "correction" implies that UA directly "assaulted" the passenger because they "had to", when was authorities that that did so under legal right. It is a story? Sure, in this sensualist culture. Is it infinitely bigger than the fraudulent disaster that was Delta this week? Not one bit.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:59 pm

bioyuki wrote:
Mir, we'll see the legal interpretations of this situation, but I believe your first paragraph is correct. That being said the issue the general public sees here is in the phrase, "security was called to assist". I think being bloodied and knocked unconscious is a dramatically different outcome than "security assisting".


I do not believe for a second that United told those officers "go on there and beat up that guy". As far as United is concerned, they asked the officers to help get the guy off the airplane. The conduct of the officers is entirely on the officers and not United.

bioyuki wrote:
The rational thing here is that United should have upped the IDB $$$ and gotten a volunteer; it's not the passenger's fault United didn't have its stuff together operationally to know it needed seats for deadhead crew. It's downright shameful what happened today.


That is about the only thing that United can be faulted for (well, that and their horrible PR response, but that's after the fact). I suspect a review of their policies with regard to how much compensation could be offered would be in order.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dcaviation
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:59 pm

If anyone needs to cancel United flight without a penalty, just call their 1-800 number and tell them that you need to cancel the ticket and you expect full refund. If they ask you what's the reason and that they can't do it for free past 7 days from the purchase, tell them that you are afraid of your life.
It should do the trick.
 
SenrabDivad
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:00 pm

Flighty wrote:
I believe it is the norm that police officers are at airports, globally for this type of reason. Men get self important and irate, and they require careful use of force to maintain public order.

I am perplexed that people question the airline captain and police officer's authority to decide -- at any time -- who may remain onboard. Moreover, there was a routine operational reason why this man's seat was no longer available to him. His job as a law abiding passenger is to say "yes officer" and "yes captain," no more. This is post 9/11, passengers who disobey commands can expect unlimited consequences. The escalation of force is swift and may appear brutal, but people who have a basic awareness of global events and modern life understand why.

The fact this guy may be an MD, or a fish farmer or a lollipop salesman makes no difference.


You must be joking. "Unlimited consequences" to include death? To include drawing and quartering? Waterboarding? Merciless beatings?

I don't know about your America, but in mine, the Constitution still guarantees due process before consequences
 
alfa164
Posts: 3025
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:00 pm

SlashingAx wrote:
To play devil's advocate, I can understand United wanting to bump 4 for a dead-head crew because they didn't want their flights on Monday to be delayed (and the chain-reaction of delays that in turn would cause). That said, $800 is the best they can do? If it's that critical for 4 of your own to get to there, offer more money so that someone volunteers. I'm sure nobody thought that it would escalate to a paying customer getting knocked the fuck out, but seriously they should've thought it through a bit. The morning's going to be all about damage control. The Twitter link is already the top post on Reddit, so it's going to explode in the morning. #dontflyunited is already picking up traction (according to keyhole.co).

:checkmark: And UA seems to have a unique ability to create negative publicity - and a negative image - in the media.

sw733 wrote:
A.net really amazes me way often than it should, and not in a good way. The number of people here who rush to the defense of an airline that wouldn't give a damn about them is awe-inspiring.

:checkmark: :checkmark: You can bet some of those posters are paid "social media commentators"; I think all airlines have added those positions by now. Well, maybe not Spirit... ;)

atcsundevil wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The way security handled the situation was a gaffe, but that's really not UA's gaffe. Do I understand correctly that you believe that you and I ought to be able to decline an IDB because we don't feel like dealing with the inconvenience? I'd point out also that ORD-SDF is a doable drive.

No, I don't think it should be an option, but if the passenger is putting them in a position where they have to forcibly remove him (as in this situation), then some sort of alternative would need to be devised. Physically dragging a non-violent individual off the aircraft isn't a proper solution.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: And it is UA who called security over an issue that should have been handled by their own staff. When other airlines are making their (positive) mark by empowering their employees to do "what is right", UA seems to be stuck in its "us-against-them" mentality. First leggings on a 10-year-old; now this... :roll:

Varsity1 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The way security handled the situation was a gaffe, but that's really not UA's gaffe.
Do I understand correctly that you believe that you and I ought to be able to decline an IDB because we don't feel like dealing with the inconvenience? I'd point out also that ORD-SDF is a doable drive.

No, I don't think it should be an option, but if the passenger is putting them in a position where they have to forcibly remove him (as in this situation), then some sort of alternative would need to be devised. Physically dragging a non-violent individual off the aircraft isn't a proper solution.

He was non compliant with their orders. They did what they had to for removal.
Special snowflakes.

Name-calling is what people resort to when they have no valid argument. :banghead:

goCOgo wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
goCOgo wrote:
It's called Involuntary DENIED BOARDING. He was not denied boarding. He was allowed to board, by all accounts. No one has claimed he rushed the gate agent. When your butt is in a seat, it's yours. With him is his seat, we have left Rule 25 of the CoC and are now in Rule 21: Refusal of Transport. That is the only clause that covers removing a passenger from the aircraft. And not a single enumerated reason in Rule 21 applies to this customer.
$400 was a pitiful offer for this situation. The compensation by law for a delay of this length is 400% of the fare up to $1,350 IN CASH. They could have offered way more. And that's what they should have done when they screwed up and let the bumped passengers board. .

It's not refusal to transport if they were going to rebook him later. Also, pretty sure the IDB compensation is $1600 max.
This is certainly embarrassing for the company, but ultimate responsibility for the violent outcome is on the security personnel.

It's refusal of transport because that is the only reason in the contact of carriage that allows them to remove someone from the aircraft (with the exception of a cause that applies to service animals.)
Read it for yourself. Nowhere else does it call for removing people. Only denied boarding, which does not apply once the passenger boarded.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx
Also, same document, Rule 25, Part A Section 4a - $1350 for delays over 2 hours.
United is the one that screwed up and forced security to be called. They don't get to wash their hands of this screw up.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: Absolutely! We have no knowledge of what they told security the problem was - that would be interesting to know - but they clearly caused an over-reaction... to a problem they should have been able to solve themselves.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:02 pm

ROSWELL41 wrote:
Do you work in the airline business? This kind of stuff is an everyday occurrence. 99/100 the airline is in the right. You should see the amount of arrogant and self entitled, intoxicated or drugged customers that are dealt with on a daily basis. The airline couldn't function if it were to allow itself to be held hostage to the whims and ignorant or emotional tirades of some customers. The airline owes it to all customers to 'keep the metal moving.'


Amen, Brother. Ignoring the self-entitled is genetic among we New Yorkers, where being self-entitled is also genetic. The New Yorker gene seems to come out among airline pax on a regular basis, and it's up to the airline employees to use an increasing spectrum of pushback to keep the metal moving. At the point that the police arrive, you are legally-obligated to obey their "request" that you leave the aircraft, and prepare for the consequences if you don't. Personally, I think the guy is lucky that the police apparently didn't arrest him, because he would then be explaining his poor judgment to the medical licensing authorities, who, regardless of how "unfair" the situation was, would examine the "doctor"'s display of poor judgment with a very critical eye. Same thing in my profession.
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:02 pm

B737900ER wrote:
And for everyone who is "appalled" by this, WAKE UP. The police have been doing this for literally DECADES!!! It's how they're trained. It's widespread, systematic and usually a lot worse. I'm sorry that you guys have been so sheltered that you're now just seeing this, but for many their behavior comes as no surprise.


Just because this has been happening for decades doesn't mean it's right. Why do you think every police officer union is pushing back so hard against body cameras?

With regards to this specific situation, these are actually unarmed Aviation Police employed by the Chicago Department of Aviation, not armed Chicago PD. They're basically rent-a-cops. My guess is that the Chicago Department of Aviation is going to get a massive lawsuit, and that during the discovery period of the trial, the public will see the lack of training that results in this type of likely overuse of force.
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6643
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:02 pm

wjcandee wrote:
exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


Bravo! If we still had a respected user list, I would add you. .

Yes, I do miss that on the site.

Finally making the news overhere in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39554421

The chief executive of United, Oscar Munoz, has since made a statement on Twitter: "This is an upsetting event to all of us here at United. I apologise for having to re-accommodate these customers."
"Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened.
"We are also reaching out to this passenger to talk directly to him and further address and resolve the situation," he added.

Resolve the situation, before it goes to court? Good luck with that.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:03 pm

First of all.
This is not a safety a security matter - then extreme measures would be justified. This is a business decision of UA to replace one passenger with the other.

I don't see how police can be used to enforce business matters. UA may have a much better standing if this was a overweight (=safety of flight) issue. I am not sure police is even authorized to enforce such things - they are law enforcement....
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:03 pm

Armodeen wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
I feel really bad for United here, their branding is splashed all over an - admittedly unfortunate - incident that they had nothing to do with. The security personnel really should have called Police if they felt that level of force was required, but at least the clown won't think of arguing with airline staff or security again. Not saying he deserved been knocked unconscious, but he definitely deserved some form of punishment.


The security staff (hell even the police) have no right to physically assault someone who is not actively resisting and poses no threat to them. If he was indeed knocked unconscious then that is extremely serious and I assume they will face assault charges (they sure would here in the UK) and the airline/security agency (whomever that is) will be looking at a lawsuit with a very high settlement figure.


Under the laws of the US, a person refusing to vacate an aircraft (or any place the person otherwise does not have a right to be at that moment), when asked to do so by the operator, who then refuses the same under an order to vacate by law enforcement personnel, is then subject to being forcefully removed as a criminal trespasser. Such force is not an "assault", which infers the commission of a crime. (Nor "battery", a more appropriate word describing a "hands-on" criminal act). "Not actively resisting" and "posing no threat" are not grounds for officers being required to let the male carry on about his merry way during a possible commission of criminal trespass.

And the seriousness of the outcome (bloodied and possibly knocked unconscious) does not indict the means (appears to have fallen into an armrest after the basic hands-on use of force commenced): When someone resists lawful use of force, they are risking injuries of such force...and they are risking even more unforeseen serious injuries which may occur incidentally and unintentionally (like falling into an armrest).
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:07 pm

For our European friends, Chris Rock has an excellent primer on how people should respond when confronted by the police:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Plainly, this doctor never watched this video, or at least didn't choose to heed it.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PanzerPowner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:13 pm

dochawk2 wrote:
I had a friend on that flight. He did not get video of the incident. He was about 10 rows aft of the altercation. The doctor was being very respectful, but emphatic, about his situation and pleading them to find someone else because of his patient the next day. Contrary to what someone else posted above, I do think there is a need difference between a doctor and a bricklayer. Not that one person is better than anther, but that laying a few rows of bricks does not have the same implications as assisting a human in need. From my friend's account, the whole event went from poorly handled by the gate agents to reprehensible by the security (or police). All in all, a HUGE black eye for United.


Finally someone with a connection to it out of the six pages.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:14 pm

bioyuki wrote:

Just because this has been happening for decades doesn't mean it's right. Why do you think every police officer union is pushing back so hard against body cameras?

With regards to this specific situation, these are actually unarmed Aviation Police employed by the Chicago Department of Aviation, not armed Chicago PD. They're basically rent-a-cops. My guess is that the Chicago Department of Aviation is going to get a massive lawsuit, and that during the discovery period of the trial, the public will see the lack of training that results in this type of likely overuse of force.

Where did I say it was right? What I'm saying is that it's to be expected. Have you ever seen a episode of cops? That's what we were watching, except it was on an airplane. But the point remains. Disobey the instructions of a LEO and get ready to be body slammed. And it doesn't matter if it's a police officer or security guard. The mentality and training is all the same.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:16 pm

This is united airlines fault

This is disgusting and unacceptable

I'd you are defending united you have serious problems. Dragging a doctor off of a plane who then can't see his patients is sick. You dont need more background they didn't handle this well and should have offered more money to find volunteers if you offer enough people will take it. This was handled wrong united and republic are wrong.
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:16 pm

bioyuki wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
And for everyone who is "appalled" by this, WAKE UP. The police have been doing this for literally DECADES!!! It's how they're trained. It's widespread, systematic and usually a lot worse. I'm sorry that you guys have been so sheltered that you're now just seeing this, but for many their behavior comes as no surprise.


Just because this has been happening for decades doesn't mean it's right. Why do you think every police officer union is pushing back so hard against body cameras?

With regards to this specific situation, these are actually unarmed Aviation Police employed by the Chicago Department of Aviation, not armed Chicago PD. They're basically rent-a-cops. My guess is that the Chicago Department of Aviation is going to get a massive lawsuit, and that during the discovery period of the trial, the public will see the lack of training that results in this type of likely overuse of force.


Point of Fact: Chicago Department of Aviation Police are not 'rent-a-cops'. They are not armed with firearms, but they are legally law enforcement officers in the state of Illinois and required to have become certified police (through completing an academy, etc) in accordance with Illinois law. They have powers of arrest, can issue citations and all the rest.
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:18 pm

When asked why the airline had the man forcibly removed, and whether that was standard procedure in cases of overbooked flights, United refused to comment. Instead they told BuzzFeed News all further questions should be referred to Chicago Police. BuzzFeed News contacted Chicago Police and were told to contact the Chicago Department of Aviation. When BuzzFeed News contacted the Chicago Department of Aviation they were transferred to a TSA message bank. A TSA spokesperson later told BuzzFeed News they were not involved and to contact Chicago Police.

You can't make this up :rotfl:

My guess is that Chicago Department of Aviation is going to have to pony up big time to sweep this one under the rug...
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
Indy
Posts: 4843
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:21 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Good ole "not the mainline" and CoC excuses.

If it is not United why the plane is painted in United livery?


It is just the typical excuse from airline apologists. You see it said the doctor should have booked earlier or bought a more expensive ticket.... what a load of rubbish. Maybe the airline should have planned better to get their employees to their destination on time instead of abusing passengers like this. Pathetic and inexcusable. People need to lose their jobs over this and the officers that injured the man like that should be dismissed and facing charges. This crap must end. No more dang excuses.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:21 pm

wingman wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Bravo! If we still had a respected user list, I would add you. Fair or not, when a cop tells you to get off the plane, it's up to you to get off the plane. You can try bullying the gate agent, but the police have the authority to go to step 3 -- MAKE, and it's entirely your choice as to how bruised you are going to be when getting off the plane. But that you are getting off the plane is not in doubt. It is the police's obligation not to back down, so confronting them is going to end in tears 100 percent of the time. The "doctor" was the self-important jerk. If the "doctor" had "patients in the morning", there was doubtless some other way that he could get home in time to see them. But fighting the cops is not going to make that happen.


There's one fundamental issue in your logic and that is that the doctor had done absolutely nothing wrong. He was a paying customer sitting in his assigned seat and had already completed boarding. I've seen your argument before and it's what "justifies" any cop dragging a motorist from their vehicle and beating the living shit out of them because of a broken tail light. Or maybe the steakhouse waitress grabs back every meal on your table to give them to someone else, tells you to leave and then has the bouncer smash your face into the table as he drags your "law-breaking" customer ass out the door.

Want to know how right I am about this? Look at the media shit storm and wait for the payout news. There's law enforcement against known criminals or people in the act of breaking the law and then there's just plain ignorance and stupidity. This is the latter. How else do you describe a company making an error and the net result is a bloodied customer being filmed dragged forcibly off a plane? It's a colossal fuck up 100% of UA's own doing.
\

Nope. Not right. Fighting the cops is stupid 100 percent of the time.

And the media storm actually does everyone a disservice, because it emboldens people to act in a way that imperils their safety. When a law enforcement officer tells you to do something like get off the plane or get out of the bar, you comply and then work out the rights and wrongs of the situation later. That's what you are legally-required to do in the US. That's the law. Whether the media think it's "unfair" or not.

United may or may not have done something stupid by choosing to revoke this guy's license to fly on their plane in order to put a positive space company employee in his seat. Moreover, United deserves massive criticism for imperiously-escalating the situation to a confrontation, and probably should have evaluated the particular passenger's need to travel (although all passengers can gin up a "need to travel", which most of the time is horsepucky). If the doctor disagreed with their decision, he had an absolute right to demand compensation from the airline and to bring it up with customer service or go to the media about that.

No problem so far. United might have been in the wrong -- like your waitress -- for ejecting the patron.

However, once the airline representative made clear that he was going to have to get off the flight, doing anything other than getting off and talking to them at the podium is the wrong move. That is on him. Because at that point, he's imposing on the rest of us who just want to get home. Sorry for your problem. It's not my problem. Get off, and work it out politely.

When the police then come, you're obligated to get off. And they're obligated to get you off. ASK, TELL, MAKE, as another poster put it. Deciding to have a physical confrontation with the police is just stupid. And illegal. And very bad judgment.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 4152
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:22 pm

Everyone needs to think of it this way, would you want this happening to you? What is you paid for your ticket, and what if you were allowed to board the plane, and then you are ordered to leave the plane with no warning and then physically forced off the plane by armed security personnel who then injure you in the process. I don't think anyone in the forum would want that type of behavior inflicted on them, so there is no reason to try to justify United's actions. Imagine if you were the doctor, would you still think what was done was right, no. DO ONTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE ONTO YOU. United is in the customer service business, part of their job as an airline is providing excellent customer service. Nothing about what happened in this situation was excellent customer service. Why did they board the passengers at all if they knew they had too many people, it makes no sense. In the future no one should be allowed to board the plane until someone gives up their seat simple as that and that would avoid PR nightmares like this, or at least raise the incentive to at least over 1,200.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:22 pm

kalvado wrote:

I don't see how police can be used to enforce business matters. UA may have a much better standing if this was a overweight (=safety of flight) issue. I am not sure police is even authorized to enforce such things - they are law enforcement....

Happens. Every. Day.

If someone unreasonably refuses to follow instructions, for whatever reason, and holds up a flight, what do you expect the airline to do? Really, I'd like to know. Should they just sit for hours in a standoff?

And why does the reason for the IDB matter? He was IDB. Also happens every day without incident. Except most people are not so over entitled that they refuse to leave the aircraft.
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:23 pm

ROSWELL41 wrote:
bioyuki wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
And for everyone who is "appalled" by this, WAKE UP. The police have been doing this for literally DECADES!!! It's how they're trained. It's widespread, systematic and usually a lot worse. I'm sorry that you guys have been so sheltered that you're now just seeing this, but for many their behavior comes as no surprise.


Just because this has been happening for decades doesn't mean it's right. Why do you think every police officer union is pushing back so hard against body cameras?

With regards to this specific situation, these are actually unarmed Aviation Police employed by the Chicago Department of Aviation, not armed Chicago PD. They're basically rent-a-cops. My guess is that the Chicago Department of Aviation is going to get a massive lawsuit, and that during the discovery period of the trial, the public will see the lack of training that results in this type of likely overuse of force.


Point of Fact: Chicago Department of Aviation Police are not 'rent-a-cops'. They are not armed with firearms, but they are legally law enforcement officers in the state of Illinois and required to have become certified police (through completing an academy, etc) in accordance with Illinois law. They have powers of arrest, can issue citations and all the rest.


I don't dispute that they're not sworn LEOs in name. But the fact that they're unarmed should speak volumes about the type of LEO body they are, the type of training they receive, where they fall on the totem poll of LEO. How many other LEO bodies in the US are unarmed?

I stand by assertion that these guys and gals are glorified rent-a-cops.
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slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:24 pm

B737900ER wrote:
bioyuki wrote:

Just because this has been happening for decades doesn't mean it's right. Why do you think every police officer union is pushing back so hard against body cameras?

With regards to this specific situation, these are actually unarmed Aviation Police employed by the Chicago Department of Aviation, not armed Chicago PD. They're basically rent-a-cops. My guess is that the Chicago Department of Aviation is going to get a massive lawsuit, and that during the discovery period of the trial, the public will see the lack of training that results in this type of likely overuse of force.

Where did I say it was right? What I'm saying is that

it's to be expected. Have you ever seen a episode of cops? That's what we were watching, except it was on an airplane. But the point remains. Disobey the instructions of a LEO and get ready to be body slammed. And it doesn't matter if it's a police officer or security guard. The mentality and training is all the same.


No it's not people on cops are actual criminals who have committed a crime. This guy purchased a ticket and boarded the plane hes not a criminal.

The problem defending united are either paid social media commentators (yes the airlines have them ) or the airlines are never wrong people on here it doesn't matter what they do.
 
indcwby
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:24 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
indcwby wrote:
Not really. They are already getting roasted for that response.

https://twitter.com/ProducerCody/status ... 08/photo/1



A clearly ignorant Twitter user isn't a good source of authority on the matter. They're the very type why these things become stories when they shouldn't.


That's your opinion. Perception can hurt you a long way. Does he mean well? Probably so. Does that statement express that after this incident, no it doesn't. Better off with just stating that this is being investigated.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
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goosebayguy
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:25 pm

SO how many million dollars will this guy get? I bet lawyers are lining up outside his home.
 
tp1040
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:28 pm

He wasn't denied boarding, he was allowed to board and was in his seat. Those gate agents should be reprimanded, fired, or retrained for allowing the situation to develop. Just bad management.

IF this story had been about some irate passenger losing their seat before boarding, people would not be as sympathetic.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:28 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Everyone needs to think of it this way, would you want this happening to you? What is you paid for your ticket, and what if you were allowed to board the plane, and then you are ordered to leave the plane with no warning and then physically forced off the plane by armed security personnel who then injure you in the process. I don't think anyone in the forum would want that type of behavior inflicted on them, so there is no reason to try to justify United's actions. Imagine if you were the doctor, would you still think what was done was right, no. DO ONTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE ONTO YOU. United is in the customer service business, part of their job as an airline is providing excellent customer service. Nothing about what happened in this situation was excellent customer service. Why did they board the passengers at all if they knew they had too many people, it makes no sense. In the future no one should be allowed to board the plane until someone gives up their seat simple as that and that would avoid PR nightmares like this, or at least raise the incentive to at least over 1,200.


The passenger may or may not have a beef about being involuntarily denied the license to fly.

He has no beef about being forcibly removed from the aircraft when resisting the police.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4152
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:29 pm

"I apologize for having to re-accomodate these passengers" -Oscar Munoz, Did no one look over his response, that might've been the worst thing he could have possibly said. Totally embarrassing that he thought that was an adequate response.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Dallas
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:30 pm

I am not familiar with the crew seating layout for this plane. Were there not at least 2-3 (2 cockpit, 1 in the back) jump seats these UA employees/ crew could have used?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:32 pm

B737900ER wrote:
kalvado wrote:

I don't see how police can be used to enforce business matters. UA may have a much better standing if this was a overweight (=safety of flight) issue. I am not sure police is even authorized to enforce such things - they are law enforcement....

Happens. Every. Day.

If someone unreasonably refuses to follow instructions, for whatever reason, and holds up a flight, what do you expect the airline to do? Really, I'd like to know. Should they just sit for hours in a standoff?

And why does the reason for the IDB matter? He was IDB. Also happens every day without incident. Except most people are not so over entitled that they refuse to leave the aircraft.

Can you give an example of police enforcing business decision? Not safety related (bag not fits / cell phone / seat belt), not stealing services (wrong class) - but purely business issue?
And I believe laws specifically limit crew authority to safety related issues. Captain cannot order that girl to give him a blow job under "obey now, complain later" umbrella.
 
Nouflyer
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:38 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:36 pm

Just to be clear:

1. United or Republic?
This is clearly the responsibility of United. They sold the ticket and the aircraft carries their colours just as a McDonalds franchise is McDonalds.

And their business model of cutting costs including by subcontracting effectively led to absurdly low offers for passengers to deboard voluntarily.

2. Was this a case of being Involuntarily Denied Boarding?
Clearly not. The passenger had bought his ticket, checked in and, crucially, been checked on board and had assumed his seat.

He had boarded. So this becomes a clear case of United electing not to honour its contract, and then failing to induce him to choose to accept a later flight. $800 is hardly going to induce a doctor to miss a day's work.

3. Was he given a lawful order to deboard by the crew?

Again, the clear answer is No, he was not given a lawful order to deboard. We have already established that he HAD boarded, so this was not a case of IDB.

Having completed boarding, he could only be involuntarily removed lawfully if he presented a danger to the safety of this flight. The operational requirements of United and or Republic are not admissible factors into such a decision, and indeed if they were not prepared to pay what it cost to get four Already Boarded passengers to leave they should have arranged taxis for the 5.5 hour road trip for the crew they needed to position.

That being the case, it seems overwhelmingly probable that the United staff - the only Republic employees were cabin crew - wilfully misrepresented the situation to the Law Enforcement Officers and misled them into believing that a peaceful and unarmed passenger who was within his legal rights was actually in some way dangerous, threatening or refusing to comply with a lawful order.

Whereas in fact the airline's order to deboard was actually an Unlawful one, based on invalid use of IDB regulations to a passenger they no longer applied to.

Not that any of this matters. The brand damage is incalculable, and may well necesssitate a rebrand to Continental sooner rather than later. When service industries assault their customers they essentially harm themselves.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7111
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"I apologize for having to re-accomodate these passengers" -Oscar Munoz, Did no one look over his response, that might've been the worst thing he could have possibly said. Totally embarrassing that he thought that was an adequate response.


I think it was about the other three passengers. May be he tweeted when attorneys were out for lunch, or did Bannon join UA.
 
pygmalion
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:38 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

Generally, those cases involve instances where the police acted outside the scope of their lawful duties and/or used excessive force.



*Edit: Grammar.



When shown to a jury, the video of the passenger's bloody face will likely register as the result of excessive force.


It's possible...But only if 1) It is not properly explained to the jury why the bloodied face was (apparently) only incidental to the use of force, 2) It was properly explained and they ignore the explanation, or 3) There is even a civil and/or criminal case sent to a jury over the matter.


Especially when there are 3 LEOs there. With 3 officers, its pretty easy in a court to say they could have done more to prevent injury to the pax they were forcibly removing from his seat. When they use force, there is a duty to minimize injury. Since there are enough of them, they will have a hard time saying it was all his fault because he didnt get up on his own. Along with the ability to use force... comes the responsibility to use it well. You cant just deck someone for not complying, Insurance companies and cities pay out for this all the time.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:39 pm

kalvado wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
kalvado wrote:

I don't see how police can be used to enforce business matters. UA may have a much better standing if this was a overweight (=safety of flight) issue. I am not sure police is even authorized to enforce such things - they are law enforcement....

Happens. Every. Day.

If someone unreasonably refuses to follow instructions, for whatever reason, and holds up a flight, what do you expect the airline to do? Really, I'd like to know. Should they just sit for hours in a standoff?

And why does the reason for the IDB matter? He was IDB. Also happens every day without incident. Except most people are not so over entitled that they refuse to leave the aircraft.

Can you give an example of police enforcing business decision? Not safety related (bag not fits / cell phone / seat belt), not stealing services (wrong class) - but purely business issue?
And I believe laws specifically limit crew authority to safety related issues. Captain cannot order that girl to give him a blow job under "obey now, complain later" umbrella.

When employees feel that a passenger is being disruptive and uncooperative they call the police. It's policy. The CSA is not trained to deal with disruptive or unruly passengers. And the fact that he wouldn't leave the aircraft when asked means he was being disruptive. Like I said before, the other passengers left without incident. What made this guy so special that he couldn't do the same?
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:39 pm

SenrabDivad wrote:
Flighty wrote:
I believe it is the norm that police officers are at airports, globally for this type of reason. Men get self important and irate, and they require careful use of force to maintain public order.

I am perplexed that people question the airline captain and police officer's authority to decide -- at any time -- who may remain onboard. Moreover, there was a routine operational reason why this man's seat was no longer available to him. His job as a law abiding passenger is to say "yes officer" and "yes captain," no more. This is post 9/11, passengers who disobey commands can expect unlimited consequences. The escalation of force is swift and may appear brutal, but people who have a basic awareness of global events and modern life understand why.

The fact this guy may be an MD, or a fish farmer or a lollipop salesman makes no difference.


You must be joking. "Unlimited consequences" to include death? To include drawing and quartering? Waterboarding? Merciless beatings?

I don't know about your America, but in mine, the Constitution still guarantees due process before consequences


I am not trying to be ridiculous here, but yes, the consequences for not obeying flight safety protocol does include death. Due process?! You do not get due process on an aircraft, you have the right to follow orders or be restrained / removed / threat mitigated.

Southwest passenger killed lawfully by passengers:
http://cjonline.com/stories/091700/new_ ... OvCA3KguBY

Aer Lingus passenger dies in restraint:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/man-dies-board ... ht-1524611

Air marshals are armed... airport police are armed... many pilots are armed. We all hope that public safety does not compel these individuals to use lethal force, but it is certainly a possibility, yes. And with good reason.
 
M564038
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:42 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Everyone needs to think of it this way, would you want this happening to you? What is you paid for your ticket, and what if you were allowed to board the plane, and then you are ordered to leave the plane with no warning and then physically forced off the plane by armed security personnel who then injure you in the process. I don't think anyone in the forum would want that type of behavior inflicted on them, so there is no reason to try to justify United's actions. Imagine if you were the doctor, would you still think what was done was right, no. DO ONTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE ONTO YOU. United is in the customer service business, part of their job as an airline is providing excellent customer service. Nothing about what happened in this situation was excellent customer service. Why did they board the passengers at all if they knew they had too many people, it makes no sense. In the future no one should be allowed to board the plane until someone gives up their seat simple as that and that would avoid PR nightmares like this, or at least raise the incentive to at least over 1,200.


The passenger may or may not have a beef about being involuntarily denied the license to fly.

He has no beef about being forcibly removed from the aircraft when resisting the police.

Of course he has! They were wrong!
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:43 pm

Nouflyer wrote:
Just to be clear:

2. Was this a case of being Involuntarily Denied Boarding?
Clearly not. The passenger had bought his ticket, checked in and, crucially, been checked on board and had assumed his seat.

He had boarded. So this becomes a clear case of United electing not to honour its contract, and then failing to induce him to choose to accept a later flight. $800 is hardly going to induce a doctor to miss a day's work.

3. Was he given a lawful order to deboard by the crew?

Again, the clear answer is No, he was not given a lawful order to deboard. We have already established that he HAD boarded, so this was not a case of IDB.

Having completed boarding, he could only be involuntarily removed lawfully if he presented a danger to the safety of this flight. The operational requirements of United and or Republic are not admissible factors into such a decision, and indeed if they were not prepared to pay what it cost to get four Already Boarded passengers to leave they should have arranged taxis for the 5.5 hour road trip for the crew they needed to position.

That being the case, it seems overwhelmingly probable that the United staff - the only Republic employees were cabin crew - wilfully misrepresented the situation to the Law Enforcement Officers and misled them into believing that a peaceful and unarmed passenger who was within his legal rights was actually in some way dangerous, threatening or refusing to comply with a lawful order.

Whereas in fact the airline's order to deboard was actually an Unlawful one, based on invalid use of IDB regulations to a passenger they no longer applied to.

Not that any of this matters. The brand damage is incalculable, and may well necesssitate a rebrand to Continental sooner rather than later. When service industries assault their customers they essentially harm themselves.

Just because you board doesn't mean you can't be IDB. You can leave the gate taxi and then dispatch can decide some people need to come off. If they remove you guess what? You are consider IDB. Just because you walk on the aircraft doesn't mean you can't be taken off
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:43 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
SO how many million dollars will this guy get? I bet lawyers are lining up outside his home.


He will get nothing. Bloomberg has a good article on this here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rs-outrage

It concludes,

"But as for the man United removed, he probably has little legal recourse. This is because of the “broad discretion” airlines have under their carriage contracts, said Dan Lear, an attorney in Seattle. The carrier also could argue that a passenger who refuses instructions to exit has become belligerent and thus “a security risk” for the crew, he said."
Last edited by Flighty on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:45 pm

B737900ER wrote:
When employees feel that a passenger is being disruptive and uncooperative they call the police. It's policy. The CSA is not trained to deal with disruptive or unruly passengers. And the fact that he wouldn't leave the aircraft when asked means he was being disruptive. Like I said before, the other passengers left without incident. What made this guy so special that he couldn't do the same?


By your logic I guess Rosa Parks wasn't special either and she should have gotten off the bus like everyone else...
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
TransGlobalGold
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:40 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:48 pm

exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


It doesn't matter. The pax paid for a flight on United. Their name is on the ticket and the airplane. Even if it's an Express flight, the blame still goes to United.
 
User avatar
climbing230
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:21 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:50 pm

the day is not far when UA will repeat the scene just because - the customer did not Keep his hair short / Because UA could hear the passenger(s) breathing / because the passenger asked the menu on board. So no more Welcome Aboard !!! it is gonna be "Kicked-Aboard".Bring an Air Force One to ferry your V.I.P crew U.A.
Wings take you higher
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:55 pm

Flighty wrote:
SenrabDivad wrote:

You must be joking. "Unlimited consequences" to include death? To include drawing and quartering? Waterboarding? Merciless beatings?

I don't know about your America, but in mine, the Constitution still guarantees due process before consequences


I am not trying to be ridiculous here, but yes, the consequences for not obeying flight safety protocol does include death. Due process?! You do not get due process on an aircraft, you have the right to follow orders or be restrained / removed / threat mitigated.

Southwest passenger killed lawfully by passengers:
http://cjonline.com/stories/091700/new_ ... OvCA3KguBY

Aer Lingus passenger dies in restraint:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/man-dies-board ... ht-1524611

Air marshals are armed... airport police are armed... many pilots are armed. We all hope that public safety does not compel these individuals to use lethal force, but it is certainly a possibility, yes. And with good reason.

goosebayguy wrote:
SO how many million dollars will this guy get? I bet lawyers are lining up outside his home.


He will get nothing. Bloomberg has a good article on this here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rs-outrage

It concludes,

"But as for the man United removed, he probably has little legal recourse. This is because of the “broad discretion” airlines have under their carriage contracts, said Dan Lear, an attorney in Seattle. The carrier also could argue that a passenger who refuses instructions to exit has become belligerent and thus “a security risk” for the crew, he said."


Dan Lear is currently working at an attorney rating site. He did pass the bar but I don't believe he is actually practicing law. Not quite sure why this guy is an expert on this subject or why you would construe the passenger will get nothing from what's in the article.
 
goCOgo
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:57 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
goCOgo wrote:
Read it for yourself. Nowhere else does it call for removing people. Only denied boarding, which does not apply once the passenger boarded.

You seem to be defining denied boarding as simply getting on the plane. Denied boarding is not a defined term in the contract of carriage and is used more broadly than your suggestion. You can get on the plane, and be asked to leave and that considered denied boarding. It actually happens all the time due to weight restrictions. Sometimes a flight will board, but weather conditions will change and force the crew to take fewer passengers after the boarding is completed. Those passengers are thus "denied boarding" because they were not allowed to complete the flight.

You're reading too tightly to the language and not the intent of the language.


Your wrote, "It actually happens all the time due to weight restrictions." And thank you for pointing that out. Between my flights (flights I worked), commuting flights, deadheading flights and just regular travel flights, I can't count the number of times where I've seen Denied Boarding become necessary after boarding had begun or was even completed. As much as you don't want it to happen, it does. I've been denied boarding after taking my seat several times.

Please understand that I'm not defending UAL, just stating what should be an obvious point; something that many here apparently aren't aware of or chose to ignore.

I hope to hear/see a statement from the Chicago Aviation Police on what happened.


I've never seen it happen on a 50+ seat jet. But in any case, this was not a weight issue. They knew they needed to keep 4 empty seats and chose to board everyone anyway, when they computer should have made ID'd the 4 IDB candidates in seconds.

And, as I said, they need to define it in the CoC better if we are going to say it can also happen after boarding. I mean, honestly, even if your definition is true, how is a layman to know being denied boarding can occur after being allowed to board? To any reasonable person, they are mutually exclusive.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
kalvado
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:58 pm

B737900ER wrote:
kalvado wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Happens. Every. Day.

If someone unreasonably refuses to follow instructions, for whatever reason, and holds up a flight, what do you expect the airline to do? Really, I'd like to know. Should they just sit for hours in a standoff?

And why does the reason for the IDB matter? He was IDB. Also happens every day without incident. Except most people are not so over entitled that they refuse to leave the aircraft.

Can you give an example of police enforcing business decision? Not safety related (bag not fits / cell phone / seat belt), not stealing services (wrong class) - but purely business issue?
And I believe laws specifically limit crew authority to safety related issues. Captain cannot order that girl to give him a blow job under "obey now, complain later" umbrella.

When employees feel that a passenger is being disruptive and uncooperative they call the police. It's policy. The CSA is not trained to deal with disruptive or unruly passengers. And the fact that he wouldn't leave the aircraft when asked means he was being disruptive. Like I said before, the other passengers left without incident. What made this guy so special that he couldn't do the same?

Disruptive passenger is NOT a business issue. It is crew/pax/flight safety issue.
Next try, please.
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