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psa188
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:02 pm

 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:08 pm

Flighty wrote:
goosebayguy wrote:
SO how many million dollars will this guy get? I bet lawyers are lining up outside his home.


He will get nothing. Bloomberg has a good article on this here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rs-outrage

It concludes,

"But as for the man United removed, he probably has little legal recourse. This is because of the “broad discretion” airlines have under their carriage contracts, said Dan Lear, an attorney in Seattle. The carrier also could argue that a passenger who refuses instructions to exit has become belligerent and thus “a security risk” for the crew, he said."


For every lawyer asked, each will have a different opinion. IMO, the lawyer's opinion is wrong but there is zero chance United will take this case to trial. This will be quickly and quietly settled if the passenger exercises his suit rights.

The passenger was not irate. The passenger was not disruptive. The passenger did not become belligerent. He wasn't a security risk to anyone. The police bungled their response as bad or worse than UA did in allowing boarding to take place then trying to force folks off who boarded.
 
bioyuki
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:08 pm

kalvado wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Can you give an example of police enforcing business decision? Not safety related (bag not fits / cell phone / seat belt), not stealing services (wrong class) - but purely business issue?
And I believe laws specifically limit crew authority to safety related issues. Captain cannot order that girl to give him a blow job under "obey now, complain later" umbrella.

When employees feel that a passenger is being disruptive and uncooperative they call the police. It's policy. The CSA is not trained to deal with disruptive or unruly passengers. And the fact that he wouldn't leave the aircraft when asked means he was being disruptive. Like I said before, the other passengers left without incident. What made this guy so special that he couldn't do the same?

Disruptive passenger is NOT a business issue. It is crew/pax/flight safety issue.
Next try, please.


Where are your facts backing that up?

This wasn't not a 'closed door' situation. The pax wasn't making verbal or physical threats, wasn't intoxicated, wasn't displaying behavior consistent with an altered mental state. I fail to see how this passenger could be construed as a 'safety issue'.
Last edited by bioyuki on Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LJ
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:09 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Finally making the news overhere in the UK..


United made to the Dutch most popular evening news with this event....
 
Whalejet
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:09 pm

I know that United did not do this in an appropriate manner-dragging a doctor off a plane is, well, indefensible. But, overbooking is a common practice in the airline industry. Overbooking makes money on seats that do not exist. What else can the airline do?

Personally, I think a simpler solution would be an outright ban on overbooking. US3 are making gargantuan profits anyway. But thats my 2 cents, and someone who knows more than me probably has a different opinion.
 
n0ct
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:12 pm

This seems to be much like a plane crash, in that there was a sequence of bad decisions. If any one of those decisions had not been made, this situation would not have escalated like it did. There is not any one decision that was absolutely wrong in and of it self, but the end result was completely avoidable. Many people want to blame one party as being completely at fault, but there is blame to be apportioned to all who were part of this sequence of events.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:15 pm

Whalejet wrote:
I know that United did not do this in an appropriate manner-dragging a doctor off a plane is, well, indefensible. But, overbooking is a common practice in the airline industry. Overbooking makes money on seats that do not exist. What else can the airline do?

Personally, I think a simpler solution would be an outright ban on overbooking. US3 are making gargantuan profits anyway. But thats my 2 cents, and someone who knows more than me probably has a different opinion.


Banning overbooking wouldn't eliminate IDBs, and it's not clear to me that it would have affected this situation any. I have not seen evidence that the flight in question was overbooked.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
32andBelow
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:17 pm

Whalejet wrote:
I know that United did not do this in an appropriate manner-dragging a doctor off a plane is, well, indefensible. But, overbooking is a common practice in the airline industry. Overbooking makes money on seats that do not exist. What else can the airline do?

Personally, I think a simpler solution would be an outright ban on overbooking. US3 are making gargantuan profits anyway. But thats my 2 cents, and someone who knows more than me probably has a different opinion.

Maybe, Other factors can lead to Overbooking. What if your E-175 gets subbed by a CRJ-200 due to MX? Should you cancel all 72 pax or should you take 50 and DB 22? As soon as you make the equip swap you are overbooked by 22.
 
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OA260
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:19 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Finally making the news overhere in the UK.


Its been on Sky News for a few hours now and United's UK/IE Facebook has taken some heat. They did another stupid thing and deleted hundreds of comments from a previous post but people are just posting again. They should just let it run otherwise people get more annoyed and determined at any censorship.
 
kivalliqboy1
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:21 pm

Looks like they have suspended the officer involved for not following SOPs...
 
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jetfuel
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:24 pm

kivalliqboy1 wrote:
Looks like they have suspended the officer involved for not following SOPs...


Token gesture.


This United Fail has made headline news all around the world and will cost them millions.

People will boycott United just as a means of trying to teach them a lesson in customer service
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
danj555
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:25 pm

Ignoring contract of carriage and legal stuff. The guy was asked to leave to make room for a United employee. How would that person feel sitting in a bloody seat and everyone on the plane looking at you like: you are the cause of this. I personally wouldn't want that sort of attention. This guy clearly wanted to get home. And if it were me and I watched all that happen I'd be like: dude you can have it. No way I want to take it now.
 
Chemist
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:26 pm

A few random thoughts after reading this entire thread:

    Agree that United is being crummy in making this guy get off so that they can put their own people on.
    Even though it was probably within United's rights to have this situation, they have major egg on their faces. Sometimes being right is less important than being decent. They should have continued to up their offer of $$ until somebody volunteered. That should be the policy.
    I suspect the term "IDB" is poorly worded and the legal meaning isn't the literal meaning as some have stated. Seems that "involuntarily denied boarding" really means for any reason the airline does not allow you to fly on the plane to your destination. Meaning that even if you are on and in your seat, you can be removed (overweight plane, this situation, etc.). And that is still IDB.
    The passenger should have obeyed the crew. He brought this upon himself. There are a multitude of reasons why you might not get on time to your destination (mechanical, weather, or this situation). If it is critical to be home on time, fly a day earlier or charter a jet.
    The police situation is unfortunate. The drama was much greater due to a) passenger forcibly resisting; b) accidental injury (on armrest?), c) passenger screaming; d) other passenger lamenting situation
    It looks like a horrible situation but give the above, what were the police supposed to do other than drag him off if he was resisting? Just sit there for hours in a hostage situation?
    In these days of high airport security, nobody has tolerance for a passenger not obeying the crew. You are on their vessel and need to follow instructions.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:31 pm

I fly UA almost exclusively on domestic trips, seeing as they are the biggest airline at my home airport, and I'm generally happy to fly with them .
I however do think this is an egregious PR move for the airline, and will result in people booking away from the airline in the near future. At the end of the day, the crew that they were "bumping" paying passengers to accommodate are flying on positive space tickets. If you're removing paying passengers from a flight, there isn't any "positive space" for your crew. UA needs to do a better job at figuring out where their crews need to be, and where there is space to accomodate them. Hell, fly the crew from ORD to IAD, then fly them over to SDF on the first flight in the morning if that's what it takes. Or fly the min jumpseats on a UPS freight flight. Some planning could have avoided what is becoming a PR nightmare for the company, and they deserve the bad press that this is going to cause.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:33 pm

exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


That's a fair point. But the punishment needs to be severe.

In my opinion, United should immediately sever its relationship with Republic. I'm sure that their contract allows early termination if the relationship causes serious harm to the one of the parties by the actions of the other. Hell, United should join with the victim in filing suit against Republic, since the victim most likely contracted with United and United subcontracted to Republic who then proceeded to mishandle/abuse United's passenger.

The idea of sending thugs in to knock a guy out who was not a threat to anyone is sickening. Assault and battery changes for the thugs, and conspiracy charges for those who made the decision.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:33 pm

Whether UA was right or wrong is completely irrelevant. They are the big loser in this incident. Joe Public doesn't care about contract of carriage or deadheading crew, all they see is a paying customer being dragged off the plane. It's being picked up by international media too and my Facebook timeline is completely covered in reports and already memes have been made (see below). Obviously UA is going to have to pay this guy to keep his mouth shut from now on because even if it goes to court, and even if UA should win, they still loose because that will only make them look worse in the eyes of the public.

Extremely poorly handled and good luck to UA marketing with damage control..

Martijn

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Last edited by CrimsonNL on Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tonyban
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:40 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
He sure doesn't look like a doctor.

If security asks you to leave the plane and you don't, don't expect them to sit around and plead with you like a child.

Nobody is entitled to a 'fair fight' with police or security. That's what the courts are for.


My doctor wears an ear-ring and has tattoos all over his arm ! Looking at him, one wouldn't know he was a doctor. So your argument that he doesn't look like a doctor is a bunch of crud ! The conduct of the officers, slamming the guys head on an armrest is disgusting and they should be charged with assault !
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:40 pm

To me the issue is that this did not need to happen. Violence and force was an unnecessary step. United had other options to solve the problem. While I understand the DB concept and understand the need for it, that it exists and is necessary does not address the issue at hand. If you are going to DB to someone, do it before boarding, if you need to do it after boarding then offer compensation that will be accepted by those being negotiated with. And yes, in this situation in particular, this was a negotiation. Just up the offer if $800 is not enough for those involved.

That they decided to create a situation where force was needed. That is why United (or Republic) will lose the lawsuit.

And why should someone be forced by a business to accept payment for inconvenience that is less than acceptable, and if not accepting then be essentially classified as a "threat"? To me it should have gone to court if United felt the passenger was being unfair in not being willing to accept the $800.00 offered. just up the offer to other passengers and sue the Dr. for the amount he forced you to pay since he was in the wrong.

Tugg
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wingman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:48 pm

wjcandee wrote:
When the police then come, you're obligated to get off. And they're obligated to get you off. ASK, TELL, MAKE, as another poster put it. Deciding to have a physical confrontation with the police is just stupid. And illegal. And very bad judgment.


This is all well and good. Technically, and legally, law enforcement officials have a lot of leeway. So I'd agree with a single phrase above (And illegal). You're right, the man had to "legally" get off the plane and was forced to do so under utterly repugnant conditions filmed for all of us to see. So now I have to ask YOU..who was really the stupid party in this situation and who used bad judgement? I think that based on everything you're seeing written and covered in the media today the answer is unequivocally United. Christ, the only good thing that didn't happen was it being three white coppers dragging a black man off the plane.

If you were actually correct both in the court of law and in the court of public opinion (the real bitch in this case), Oscar Munoz probably would've tweeted something along the lines of "the bastard got what he deserved and let it be known to any of the scum we fly, disobey a direct order by one of our Stasi Femme bots and we will beat the shit out of you I don't care who the hell you are". But you'll note the CEO had a very different reaction today. United will pay, you can take that to the bank. And THAT, my friend, is all that matters in this horrible and utterly disgusting event. They will be groveling for weeks.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:50 pm

bioyuki wrote:
When asked why the airline had the man forcibly removed, and whether that was standard procedure in cases of overbooked flights, United refused to comment. Instead they told BuzzFeed News all further questions should be referred to Chicago Police. BuzzFeed News contacted Chicago Police and were told to contact the Chicago Department of Aviation. When BuzzFeed News contacted the Chicago Department of Aviation they were transferred to a TSA message bank. A TSA spokesperson later told BuzzFeed News they were not involved and to contact Chicago Police.

You can't make this up :rotfl:

My guess is that Chicago Department of Aviation is going to have to pony up big time to sweep this one under the rug...


Comical!

Here's the link for those who want to read it: https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciamelville ... .ehmYqZzvg

And this post is pretty hysterical
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyachen/hey- ... .ac4YDa5K7
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apfpilot
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:50 pm

This statement from: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rs-outrage "United required the seats on the Chicago plane to accommodate several crew members who needed to get to Louisville, to avoid cancelling other flights, spokesman Charles Hobart said Monday. The flight wasn’t, in fact, oversold." Makes it even worse in my opinion. It wasn't an oversold situation just poor operational planning on United's Part.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:52 pm

Nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone say what standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this both (1) pre-boarding, and (2) after boarding. I've seen lots of posters say that UA should have kept upping the ante until four passengers bit on it, but what happens if that doesn't work? Roll the dice and hope that it doesn't escalate to this kind of situation? I can't believe there aren't procedures in place to handle this other than "hope it doesn't get uncomfortable."
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:56 pm

Apparently the officers were placed on leave

https://twitter.com/AP/status/851512878624628737
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axio
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:00 pm

What are the airlines obligations in terms of getting the passenger to the destination?

The experience I've had in NZ is that road transport is an acceptable alternative. I once experienced bad weather delays and NZ ended up with a cancelled flight from CHC-DUD so they put on a coach bus. This is a 5 hour drive meaning passengers didn't reach their destination until midnight (at the time my wife was 7 months pregnant so they kindly offered us a hotel overnight).

The reason I am wondering is google maps says ORD-SDF is about 5 hours drive, and (at least for next Sunday) United 3411 leaves at 1740. So they could have had those passengers to their houses around 11pm by road. Now I know it's not fun and not what you paid for, but if done well (i.e. fare refund, some other compensation, stylish vehicle...) would have ended up just as a good story to tell his mates showing the lengths the airline was willing to go to. I do note this is operational whereas my experience was weather related, and I believe the rules (at least for NZ) are different.

Unrelated note - is overbooking more common in the US that anywhere else? The only place I've experienced it was the US (I voluntarily took a night in a hotel and $500 from United since my appointment wasn't until the next day), and they seem to go to compensation before finding an alternative carrier.
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Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:01 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone say what standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this both (1) pre-boarding, and (2) after boarding. I've seen lots of posters say that UA should have kept upping the ante until four passengers bit on it, but what happens if that doesn't work? Roll the dice and hope that it doesn't escalate to this kind of situation? I can't believe there aren't procedures in place to handle this other than "hope it doesn't get uncomfortable."


The procedure is to inform passengers their seat is no longer operationally available to them, so sorry, and to please exit the aircraft so they can be accommodated on the next flight.

If they refuse, the passenger is ordered to exit the aircraft immediately on flight crew authority (which is near absolute).

If they refuse, the passenger is cuffed/restrained and probably arrested for failure to comply with crew member instructions, a civil offense if nonviolent, a criminal offense if it becomes physical. This isn't all that uncommon. Passengers are arrested fairly routinely. Definitely can be found in Air Marshal and Airport Police training manuals.
 
weekendppl
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:04 pm

jayunited wrote:
While agents should have kept these passengers from boarding it takes time to go through the manifest to find the right passengers. So while one agent works on identifying the customers in the computer the other agent is boarding the aircraft.

Wondering here: United deploys enough computer horsepower to reprice seats on a second-by-second, search query by search query, basis. They can't train their computers to detect that they are in an IDB situation--they need four seats for deadhead--and automatically spit out the list, in order, of who is going to be denied? And gag when those boarding passes are scanned? They can't train those computers to define exactly what in $ terms the airline is willing to offer, no supervisor required, to avoid a scene like this? And start the process instantly of solving tomorrow's problem with the four missing crew if nobody accepts the offer?
 
sspontak
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:10 pm

exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


You would think most people, especially a doctor would know better than to get it to point # 3 MAKE. These types of issues would not happen if people would respect authority, even if you don't agree with them. The consequences are not worth it unless you are looking for trouble.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:11 pm

Flighty wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone say what standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this both (1) pre-boarding, and (2) after boarding. I've seen lots of posters say that UA should have kept upping the ante until four passengers bit on it, but what happens if that doesn't work? Roll the dice and hope that it doesn't escalate to this kind of situation? I can't believe there aren't procedures in place to handle this other than "hope it doesn't get uncomfortable."


The procedure is to inform passengers their seat is no longer operationally available to them, so sorry, and to please exit the aircraft so they can be accommodated on the next flight.

If they refuse, the passenger is ordered to exit the aircraft immediately on flight crew authority (which is near absolute).

If they refuse, the passenger is cuffed/restrained and probably arrested for failure to comply with crew member instructions, a civil offense if nonviolent, a criminal offense if it becomes physical. This isn't all that uncommon. Passengers are arrested fairly routinely. Definitely can be found in Air Marshal and Airport Police training manuals.

So for a fault created by the airline, a passenger can be classified as a threat by that same airline? That is improper. It may be legal but certainly needs to be taken to court.

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
holzmann
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:11 pm

The video speaks volumes about "the friendly skies."

I don't care which side was right or wrong. Perception is everything. For a lot of people an (Asian) man being dragged off of a plane unconscious will be what they associate with United.
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:11 pm

sspontak wrote:
exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


You would think most people, especially a doctor would know better than to get it to point # 3 MAKE. These types of issues would not happen if people would respect authority, even if you don't agree with them. The consequences are not worth it unless you are looking for trouble.

So you will respect authority and allow them to abuse you in effect?

While fully respect authority I will challenge it it a calm manner and require more than simple platitudes (and I have done so in the past. Successfully I might add). In this situation I do not know what I would have done. It is wrong on many level regardless of the "legal" elements that favor the airline. A business still has liability for their actions, legal and otherwise.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
BostonGuy
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:12 pm

Flighty wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
The procedure is to inform passengers their seat is no longer operationally available to them.


I think it's precisely that kind of airline-speak to paying customers that engenders an enormous amount of ill will among the flying public.
 
bioyuki
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:15 pm

Flighty wrote:
The procedure is to inform passengers their seat is no longer operationally available to them, so sorry, and to please exit the aircraft so they can be accommodated on the next flight.

If they refuse, the passenger is ordered to exit the aircraft immediately on flight crew authority (which is near absolute).

If they refuse, the passenger is cuffed/restrained and probably arrested for failure to comply with crew member instructions, a civil offense if nonviolent, a criminal offense if it becomes physical. This isn't all that uncommon. Passengers are arrested fairly routinely. Definitely can be found in Air Marshal and Airport Police training manuals.


Based on my assessment of the situation, what you posted is wrong.

1. This wasn't an operational issue...e.g. this wasn't W&B. This is a CoC/IDB issue which is subject to interpretation.
2. Flight crew authority IS NOT near absolute as you claim. The latest guidance around 14 CFR with regards to Authority of Pilot in Command and Authority of Flight Attendants (Delegated) clearly shows that their authority is recognized only when there is an inimical threat to the safety of the flight. Pilot and flight attendants that remove a passenger from an airplane must reasonable in their actions, and may be questioned and reviewed. In cases where there is review and it is found that the pilot/FA acted arbitrarily or capriciously, and there was not an inimical threat to the security of the flight, they can be found liable for their actions.
3. At no point in the videoed interactions does the passenger seem hostile, violent, intoxicated, threatening or displaying any other form of behavior that would constitute an inimical threat to the security of the flight
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art
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:25 pm

wjcandee wrote:
exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


Bravo! If we still had a respected user list, I would add you. Fair or not, when a cop tells you to get off the plane, it's up to you to get off the plane. You can try bullying the gate agent, but the police have the authority to go to step 3 -- MAKE, and it's entirely your choice as to how bruised you are going to be when getting off the plane. But that you are getting off the plane is not in doubt. It is the police's obligation not to back down, so confronting them is going to end in tears 100 percent of the time. The "doctor" was the self-important jerk. If the "doctor" had "patients in the morning", there was doubtless some other way that he could get home in time to see them. But fighting the cops is not going to make that happen.


Sorry, have not read all the replies here but it strikes me that once a party to a contract (airline here) has confirmed to the other party to the contract (passenger here) that the contracted service will be provided (by inviting the passenger to board the plane and to take a seat in this instance) and the passenger has accepted this offer, boarded the aircraft and sat in a seat, it is too late for the airline to retract the offer of passage made.

I suspect that this debacle will cost the airline hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of times as much as it would have lost through its employees failing to get on the flight.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:29 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Its reasons like this why United will continue to make airlines like Delta flourish when they are down and out. Like I said, it will only take folks one or two flights on AA or UA and even the lesser, low cost rival JetBlue for people to realize that the grass really isn't greener. That this happened on UA should be no shocker. Shame on them.


Oops - you posted in the wrong thread. This is the "One guy's horrible day" thread. The "Tens of Thousands of people's lives disrupted and had to spend thousands to get rectified on their own due to Delta incompetence" thread is here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1359777

climbing230 wrote:
Wished if Mr. Munoz was sitting on that plane in economy and witnessing this "Prestigious" customer service unveil would have made him awestruck !!!


I have faith that he thinks this is terrible as well.

DfwRevolution wrote:
The big winner today is Delta, whose having the spotlight for their operational issues taken off them!


I swear, if UA's PR machine ever actually started to work right, they'd throw a wrench in it just to break it again. That's how incompetent their PR people are.

Flighty wrote:
This is post 9/11

The fact this guy may be an MD, or a fish farmer or a lollipop salesman makes no difference.


I agree that his job has nothing to do with this, but neither does 9/11. There was zero danger to anyone - this was brute force to solve United's dilemma. Period.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Dragging a doctor off of a plane who then can't see his patients is sick.


His being a doctor is irrelevant. I doubt the patients were on life support waiting for his early morning arrival.

B737900ER wrote:
If someone unreasonably refuses to follow instructions, for whatever reason, and holds up a flight, what do you expect the airline to do? Really, I'd like to know. Should they just sit for hours in a standoff?


That's why it's really important to handle it right BEFORE it comes time to kick him off the plane. There is legal right and wrong and a moral right and wrong. In this case, clearly UA was morally wrong if they let him board and then decided - for their own financial interests - to kick him off. That may be legally fine but that is morally wrong. They should have either offered more money or sucked it up and chartered a plane for the crew.

bioyuki wrote:
By your logic I guess Rosa Parks wasn't special either and she should have gotten off the bus like everyone else...


Let's not go there, ok? This wasn't a racial issue or a discrimination issue.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone say what standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this both (1) pre-boarding, and (2) after boarding. I've seen lots of posters say that UA should have kept upping the ante until four passengers bit on it, but what happens if that doesn't work? Roll the dice and hope that it doesn't escalate to this kind of situation? I can't believe there aren't procedures in place to handle this other than "hope it doesn't get uncomfortable."


Ultimately, if the guy is on the plane, and if no one would agree to compensation, then UA should have sucked it up and chartered a plane. Look at DL in ATL. Numerous people spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars to get where they were going when DL dropped the ball. I think UA could deal with the bill in this case - why should this guy once he's boarded?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:30 pm

bioyuki wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The procedure is to inform passengers their seat is no longer operationally available to them, so sorry, and to please exit the aircraft so they can be accommodated on the next flight.

If they refuse, the passenger is ordered to exit the aircraft immediately on flight crew authority (which is near absolute).

If they refuse, the passenger is cuffed/restrained and probably arrested for failure to comply with crew member instructions, a civil offense if nonviolent, a criminal offense if it becomes physical. This isn't all that uncommon. Passengers are arrested fairly routinely. Definitely can be found in Air Marshal and Airport Police training manuals.


Based on my assessment of the situation, what you posted is wrong.

1. This wasn't an operational issue...e.g. this wasn't W&B. This is a CoC/IDB issue which is subject to interpretation.
2. Flight crew authority IS NOT near absolute as you claim. The latest guidance around 14 CFR with regards to Authority of Pilot in Command and Authority of Flight Attendants (Delegated) clearly shows that their authority is recognized only when there is an inimical threat to the safety of the flight. Pilot and flight attendants that remove a passenger from an airplane must reasonable in their actions, and may be questioned and reviewed. In cases where there is review and it is found that the pilot/FA acted arbitrarily or capriciously, and there was not an inimical threat to the security of the flight, they can be found liable for their actions.
3. At no point in the videoed interactions does the passenger seem hostile, violent, intoxicated, threatening or displaying any other form of behavior that would constitute an inimical threat to the security of the flight


Sorry for the stream of consciousness, but to expand on #1, what we fundamentally have here is a civil disagreement between the carrier and the passenger about the terms of the CoC. The carrier then decided to call LEO, and LEO acting as agents of the carrier and enforcing the carrier's interpretation of the contract, forcibly removed the passenger. Which then begs the following questions:

1. With regards to the CoC, is the passenger or the airline right? I think the definition of the word 'boarding' may become the linchpin of the case. The carrier will argue that boarding is only complete when the manifest is delivered and the door is closed, but I think a jury will disagree as the average joe likely thinks that having your boarding pass scanned and boarding the aircraft, constitutes boarding
2. It is highly probable that a claim of excessive force will be made against the LEO in question, the Chicago Department of Aviation. The question is whether or not the carrier will also bear some liability, if any is found. It will be interesting to see how the carrier represented the situation to the LEO in the first place when requesting action.

Putting legality aside, at this point it's clear that United has lost, and lost big, in the court of public opinion. It was a simple decision as to the everyday public, they saw a non-violent, paying passenger, bloodied and beaten as they were removed from the plane.
Last edited by bioyuki on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
sspontak
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:33 pm

Tugger wrote:
sspontak wrote:
exunited wrote:
The process for law enforcement is 1. ASK, 2. TELL, 3. MAKE - it's your choice at point 1 or 2 but should you get to step 3, you will be leaving with plenty of assistance. If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference. As some have said, it's the airplane operator's decision as to who gets on and who gets off, they owe you a refund if they don't get you to point B and that's all.


You would think most people, especially a doctor would know better than to get it to point # 3 MAKE. These types of issues would not happen if people would respect authority, even if you don't agree with them. The consequences are not worth it unless you are looking for trouble.


So you will respect authority and allow them to abuse you in effect?

Tugg


No I would respect authority and not let it get to the point of being abused,
 
Adipocere
Posts: 323
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:37 pm

Bravo Munoz.. saving United'S bottom line one cent at a time by having your customers beaten black and blue.

How about just up the compensation until someone finally accepts to get off the da*n plane?
 
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flashmeister
Posts: 2685
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:38 pm

Apparently my earlier reply was deleted, so I'm reiterating a couple of thoughts here:

Suggesting that someone deserves bodily harm for standing up for themselves in a non-threatening situation is just simply absurd. This man did not deserve the outcome, regardless of the rules or the statutes or the circumstances. Asserting that he did is, frankly, pathetic. It shows the sorry state of our society that so many people are so quick to justify -- even encourage -- needless violence. It's just sad.

Operations that care about customer service and their reputation would have never let things get to the point where this guy was injured, even if he was disobeying the rules. United failed to do this, and showed that they don't really care about either. And their Twitter response today just reinforced how tone-deaf they are. For United fanfolks complaining that Delta's meltdown didn't make the news, first of all, stop it: you're being childish. Second of all, perhaps that's because Delta is maybe trying to be helpful, or at least not facilitating physical injury of their customers. Delta is ahead of United in terms of customer service. Accept it and strive to improve.

Airplane seats are a commodity, so how an airline handles irregular situation makes or breaks customer relationships. Some might say that all an airline has responsibility for is getting people from A to B, and that might be true, but it's true for a lot of carriers. When people have a similarly-priced option, they pick on other factors. So, airlines have to differentiate themselves -- that's the entire point of a brand, by the way -- by their behavior. United certainly showed that they were in a class by themselves yesterday and today (ok, perhaps alongside Air Koryo).

It doesn't matter one bit who operated the flight -- what you're seeing here is United's product. Carriers go to great lengths to integrate regional services into their brands. For those who are ignorant to these matters (read: 99% of people), no one knows or cares whether a flight is SkyWest, Republic, or mainline, other than noticing how many seats are in an aisle. And the majors go out of their way to make sure that people don't care, because it's all part of their brand strategy to brag about all this service, even to little cities. When United is so willing to accept the upside of extending its brand to partner businesses, then the downside of bad partner behavior is absolutely United's problem.
 
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11725Flyer
Posts: 1371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:40 pm

I noticed that Oscar's statement made sure to include "United Express." What a PR nightmare. I don't fly United very often, but will stick to AA when I head west. Why would I want to wind up unconscious on a United or United Express plane?

Heads should roll on this one. As in, it's time to replace a few people at the top.

Here's what Oscar should have done:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-u ... 2017-04-10

I wish Munoz well as he "pursues new career opportunities."
 
woody02
Posts: 7
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

I haven't had a chance to read through five more pages to see if it's been mentioned but this is all over Australian & NZ news & social media. And no one is siding with United.
 
910A
Posts: 1881
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:43 pm

psa188 wrote:


As a retired state trooper and yes we had to cover security at our small local airport sometimes , but no way in hell, would I have dragged a 69 year old doctor or anyone else off the plane in this situation. I would have told the gate agent it's your issue, no one broke any laws that I enforce, you have have to come up with a solution. I suspect the F/A's were nowhere to be seen, as they didn't want to get involved, and no way can a gate agent be considered a flight crew member.
 
kivalliqboy1
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:07 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:47 pm

The officer involved in dragging this poor man off the flight wasn't in uniform and didn't appear to have a badge or ID. Is this usual?
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10422
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:51 pm

kalvado wrote:
Disruptive passenger is NOT a business issue. It is crew/pax/flight safety issue.
Next try, please.

However the airline created the situation. The airline caused the passenger to become an issue.

That's OK? The "rules" may allow it but is it really OK? If I serve you a meal and you begin to eat it, but then another customer comes along and I want to seat them instead. Can I force you to leave and bear no liability?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:52 pm

This is so disgraceful to watch and does not surprise me one bit that this happened on United. This folks, is the real United. Guess those folks that left Delta will be back already. I mean, someone at United must have thought Delta was having a bad week and said, hold my beer and watch this! Shame, shame on United,

Meet the new united, same as the old United....
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 194
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:52 pm

woody02 wrote:
I haven't had a chance to read through five more pages to see if it's been mentioned but this is all over Australian & NZ news & social media. And no one is siding with United.


Yes, this is on the front page of almost every major news website. I'm sure it will be making the rounds on the evening news reports as well. All the posters on here saying that this is no big deal and that "united was within its rights" are severely out of touch with the flying public.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:56 pm

910A wrote:
psa188 wrote:


As a retired state trooper and yes we had to cover security at our small local airport sometimes , but no way in hell, would I have dragged a 69 year old doctor or anyone else off the plane in this situation. I would have told the gate agent it's your issue, no one broke any laws that I enforce, you have have to come up with a solution. I suspect the F/A's were nowhere to be seen, as they didn't want to get involved, and no way can a gate agent be considered a flight crew member.

Basically law enforcement agencies at airports etc. should establish better rules and response systems for dealing with airline requests for assistance. And have consequences against the airline if they are deceived. In this case the airline caused the situation. They "hit first" and the passenger reacted. And reacting to an unprovoked attack is a reasonable response by a passenger. That should not require law enforcement intervention. As I stated earlier the airline could have deplaned another person or increased the incentive and then sued the Dr. at a later date.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14427
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:59 pm

Tugger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Disruptive passenger is NOT a business issue. It is crew/pax/flight safety issue.
Next try, please.

However the airline created the situation. The airline caused the passenger to become an issue.

That's OK? The "rules" may allow it but is it really OK? If I serve you a meal and you begin to eat it, but then another customer comes along and I want to seat them instead. Can I force you to leave and bear no liability?

Tugg


Can you tell me to leave? Sure; coming into the restaurant is a revocable license. Is it good business? Of course not.

IDBs suck. There's no way around it. But when the police come to get you, you aren't flying and it's time to take your medicine and leave the airplane.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bioyuki
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:00 pm

910A wrote:
As a retired state trooper and yes we had to cover security at our small local airport sometimes , but no way in hell, would I have dragged a 69 year old doctor or anyone else off the plane in this situation. I would have told the gate agent it's your issue, no one broke any laws that I enforce, you have have to come up with a solution. I suspect the F/A's were nowhere to be seen, as they didn't want to get involved, and no way can a gate agent be considered a flight crew member.


This. A rational police officer wouldn't have involved himself, let alone use a large amount of force, in essentially a customer service issue between United and the passenger. Which goes back to my point that while Chicago Aviation Police is technically sworn LEO, the fact that they're unarmed and have very different SOP to most police forces, should say volumes about their talent, training and execution. Despite the reputation that Chicago PD has, if I was a betting man, if Chicago PD was called, they would have acted very differently than Chicago Aviation Police's 'Aviation Security Officers'.
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14427
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:06 pm

bioyuki wrote:
910A wrote:
As a retired state trooper and yes we had to cover security at our small local airport sometimes , but no way in hell, would I have dragged a 69 year old doctor or anyone else off the plane in this situation. I would have told the gate agent it's your issue, no one broke any laws that I enforce, you have have to come up with a solution. I suspect the F/A's were nowhere to be seen, as they didn't want to get involved, and no way can a gate agent be considered a flight crew member.


This. A rational police officer wouldn't have involved himself, let alone use a large amount of force, in essentially a customer service issue between United and the passenger. Which goes back to my point that while Chicago Aviation Police is technically sworn LEO, the fact that they're unarmed and have very different SOP to most police forces, should say volumes about their talent, training and execution. Despite the reputation that Chicago PD has, if I was a betting man, if Chicago PD was called, they would have acted very differently than Chicago Aviation Police's 'Aviation Security Officers'.


I've been pondering this all day and am torn. Taking the call, responding to the airplane and talking to the passenger are all obviously okay. Assuming the captain has taken the company line and is refusing to transport the passenger, the next step is a difficult one. (I've not seen any evidence that the captain refused the passenger or that he was even asked, but it's probably a reasonable assumption that he either refused the passenger or would have refused him if asked.) Is the solution to take everyone else off the plane and let the noncompliant passenger fester alone? That seems like a situation that could also end badly.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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flyingclrs727
Posts: 2586
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:07 pm

Why couldn't United have offered to rebook the passengers onto a later Southwest flight from MDW to SDF. I've been on a United flight where a connecting flight at LHR was rebooked onto another airline in a different alliance due to delays in the originating flight from IAH. For that matter, why couldn't United have had its crew dead head on the WN flight?
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