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Midwestindy
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:39 am

Flighty wrote:
Excellent memo from Munoz. It is time for United to defend itself strongly. The criminal was removed so the lawful passengers could continue.

The story is an utterly routine day at the airport. Other than the fact that a licensed doctor was an irate passenger and needed to be helped off the aircraft. Any injuries sustained were his responsibility. Emphatically.

UAL will settle because as another poster said, they do not want to risk changing longstanding process has evolved for 50+ years and works well.


I really hope you are being sarcastic but just in case you aren't....

With all due respect that statement is a bit off, Plenty of slaveowners argued that same way when slavery was around in the 1800s, they believed that there was no need to add laws against slavery because slavery had been around for 200 years and it that there was no need to change longstanding practices that were profitable and worked well for the plantation owner. (This is an extreme example, but I think it gets my point across) Just saying that this is "routine" is very odd. If there is injustice going on it shouldn't just be routine, and in fact it really shouldn't be happening at all. The reason why things like this happen, is people like you who are fine with someone getting treated unfairly, and going as far as to call it routine. If people legitimately boycotted united, united would definitely change its stance on the issue. But as long as people like you call it routine, United will keep on doing things the way they have for decades. By the way he isn't a criminal, he is just a man who was allowed to board a flight and paid for a ticket to get where he needed to go, I'm sure if he knew that this would happen to him he would have never flown United, so I am confused at how his injuries were his responsibility. He would have never had those injuries if United never boarded him in the first place. If this is an airline and and country where something like this is defended and viewed as routine, I am deeply saddened by the trajectory of this nation.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:40 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the woman in near-hysterics, screaming, "OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!" and wondering, "Well, why didn't you volunteer to give up YOUR seat, then?" ;)


Well, the incident aside, after watching the video several times I just wanted her to be quiet.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:40 am

Samrnpage wrote:
The people on this thread defending UA are the type of people who would be the first to sue the company if it had been them knocked out by security. Not only did you get assaulted, injured and dragged out of a plan against your will, you are now being watched by millions all over the world who are watching the video! but thats fine because he didnt want to leave the plane that he paid for. Some people in this age enrage me!!!!!!

For the most part, I would defend UA in this situation. You have a non-compliant customer, UA reps asked this man multiple times to get off the aircraft, and after repeated attempts, UA called the police so the man would get off the plane. When the man didn't get off, the police removed him. Was this excessive force? Perhaps. I don't necessarily condone the police's actions, but the man was non-compliant, and I'm sorry, but there are a few places where compliance is more important than others, and airports/airplanes are one of them.

That said, if I were in the situation, and I had boarded and then been asked to step off because of an overbooking, I'd be pissed but I'd get off the aircraft. That's common sense. Staying in my seat in defiance doesn't mean the reps/cops are just gonna let the flight depart, it just escalates an already annoying situation.
 
transswede
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:41 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the woman in near-hysterics, screaming, "OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!" and wondering, "Well, why didn't you volunteer to give up YOUR seat, then?" ;)


Perhaps because no sane person would have expected *this* outcome? What is this - "volunteer, or we will beat up someone"? Really? :banghead:
 
grbauc
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:42 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I don't understand why people are having a hard time unpacking this.

1) UA has blame for how they directly handled the denied boarding situation. As others pointed out above, the situation should have been resolved at the gate and they should have offered higher compensation.

2) The airport police are the ones to blame for escalating the situation to as far as it went in the video there. It's important to separate and distinguish the fact that UA did not order the passenger beaten. The blame for the violent treatment rests solely with the airport police.


What about the guy Does HE Have any responsibility??? we I go out in public I know there are situations that when interacting I need to/have to comply with directions. Getting rules clarified or changed needs to happen in the right place right time. HIS ACTIONS CAUSED THE SITUATION BY REFUSING> to comply.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:

So, he should have thought ".....maybe I am in danger of getting violently pulled off my plane because I didn't but a more expensive ticket". One thing has NOTHING to do with another. Maybe the guy is not a savvy traveler OR maybe he didn't stop to think that he would be attacked for buying a cheap ticket or for that matter maybe he should have been born rich so he could have a private jet? Perhaps with your logic he should have..hmmm....planned his itinerary around the the thought that maybe he could get beat up. Wait...you must be in his head since you have the answers to things he should have done but have no idea what he could actually do. Why attack the fact that he is a doctor?

Sorry, but this gets the award for the dumbest most moronic and insensitive response ever.


It's not really an attack or a commentary on the specific situation. Stuff happens while flying. You either protect yourself to the extent that you can or you deal with the consequences of not having done so. All of us who fly a lot have seen crazy stuff mess up flights and understand this.

This in no way excuses the police response.


I'm going to stop you right there. First of all if you were the one who was allowed to board the plane you paid for, and then after you stow away your carry-on luggage and get comfortable, you are approached out of nowhere by a crew member who demands you have to leave the aircraft, and the best they can offer you for your "volunteering of your seat" is 800 in VOUCHERS and they will rebook you for a flight the NEXT afternoon. And not to mention missing invaluable amount of time and money. And considering he is a doctor, he could have been using that time to save dozens of patients lives. Then adding on to that you are ripped out of your seat and have your head bashed against an armrest, and are dragged off the plane bleeding from your head while unconscious. I guarantee to you wouldn't walk up to the airport staff and calmly say, "STUFF HAPPENS WHILE FLYING," I mean are you kidding me this person has been humiliated by being videotaped and watched by millions of people around the world, this person could have head trauma that leads to brain damage for the rest of his life, and you have the nerve to say "stuff happens while flying." United is completely in the wrong in this situation, and you say "STUFF HAPPENS WHILE FLYING." MY GOD, I pray for you if that is your mindset. Stand up for what is right. 90 % of the people in this forum fly regularly including me, so you aren't special. I can personally say that through all my years of flying every us carrier (low-cost and legacy) I have never experienced anything even near the magnitude of what happened here. But I really hope if you saw something like this happening while you were flying, you didn't just sit and watch, I hope you would have had the common sense to speak up for the passenger who was in the right.


You stopped reading and missed the point. "Stuff while flying" is the IDB (which is fairly routine), not the police interaction. Reread my comments with that understanding and I think you'll see that you wasted a lot of breath.
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airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:44 am

transswede wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the woman in near-hysterics, screaming, "OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!" and wondering, "Well, why didn't you volunteer to give up YOUR seat, then?" ;)


Perhaps because no sane person would have expected *this* outcome? What is this - "volunteer, or we will beat up someone"? Really? :banghead:

No, its volunteer or someone gets bumped. The man got bumped and didn't get off the plane. Suddenly you have a non-compliant passenger and that is means for removal, regardless of being bumped.

You hear it in every safety demonstration, "federal regulations require all passengers to comply with crew member instructions," if the crew tells you to get off the plane, you get off, it is required by federal regulation to abide by the crew.
 
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ua2162
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:45 am

airliner371 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
The people on this thread defending UA are the type of people who would be the first to sue the company if it had been them knocked out by security. Not only did you get assaulted, injured and dragged out of a plan against your will, you are now being watched by millions all over the world who are watching the video! but thats fine because he didnt want to leave the plane that he paid for. Some people in this age enrage me!!!!!!

For the most part, I would defend UA in this situation. You have a non-compliant customer, UA reps asked this man multiple times to get off the aircraft, and after repeated attempts, UA called the police so the man would get off the plane. When the man didn't get off, the police removed him. Was this excessive force? Perhaps. I don't necessarily condone the police's actions, but the man was non-compliant, and I'm sorry, but there are a few places where compliance is more important than others, and airports/airplanes are one of them.

That said, if I were in the situation, and I had boarded and then been asked to step off because of an overbooking, I'd be pissed but I'd get off the aircraft. That's common sense. Staying in my seat in defiance doesn't mean the reps/cops are just gonna let the flight depart, it just escalates an already annoying situation.


I think you just hit the nail on the head.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:45 am

airliner371 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
The people on this thread defending UA are the type of people who would be the first to sue the company if it had been them knocked out by security. Not only did you get assaulted, injured and dragged out of a plan against your will, you are now being watched by millions all over the world who are watching the video! but thats fine because he didnt want to leave the plane that he paid for. Some people in this age enrage me!!!!!!


For the most part, I would defend UA in this situation. You have a non-compliant customer, UA reps asked this man multiple times to get off the aircraft, and after repeated attempts, UA called the police so the man would get off the plane. When the man didn't get off, the police removed him. Was this excessive force? Perhaps. I don't necessarily condone the police's actions, but the man was non-compliant, and I'm sorry, but there are a few places where compliance is more important than others, and airports/airplanes are one of them.

That said, if I were in the situation, and I had boarded and then been asked to step off because of an overbooking, I'd be pissed but I'd get off the aircraft. That's common sense. Staying in my seat in defiance doesn't mean the reps/cops are just gonna let the flight depart, it just escalates an already annoying situation.


Non-compliance is how bad rules get publicized and changed (see: civil rights, labor laws, etc.). Good for the doctor for standing up to a bad practice the airline industry has been practicing for years. Not sure I would have had the guts to do it myself.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:50 am

tp1040 wrote:
Mr. Munoz will not be the first person to fall on his sword screaming, "But I am RIGHT. "

Give it up Oscar, you are beat on this. You are incompetent and unfit to lead. Today's CEOs need to know how to prevent and put out fires. .



yup. Nothing has changed much in Chicago.

OM is not that good a CEO. His main, and only focus, is trying to be liked by everyone and trying to get everyone to like one another. He needs to start acting like an airline CEO and not the kid that wants to be liked by everyone. I just saw on NBC that when the United employees came on board after the man was dragged out, a very large contingent of the planes passengers loudly booed those employees. so you tell me United Fanboys, while United might be right by the book, at the end of the day, they are very wrong in the eyes of millions of people throughout the world. Again, much like the leggings fiasco United handled this WRONG.
Last edited by jumbojet on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 am

airliner371 wrote:
transswede wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the woman in near-hysterics, screaming, "OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!" and wondering, "Well, why didn't you volunteer to give up YOUR seat, then?" ;)


Perhaps because no sane person would have expected *this* outcome? What is this - "volunteer, or we will beat up someone"? Really? :banghead:

No, its volunteer or someone gets bumped. The man got bumped and didn't get off the plane. Suddenly you have a non-compliant passenger and that is means for removal, regardless of being bumped.

You hear it in every safety demonstration, "federal regulations require all passengers to comply with crew member instructions," if the crew tells you to get off the plane, you get off, it is required by federal regulation to abide by the crew.


See? Somebody here gets it.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 am

Well, I think most people here can agree that this could've been handled better. UA could've offered more because I think people value their time more than they used to given that Americans work more hours and are often less flexible with their schedules. People will volunteer if they feel they're not being shortchanged for their precious time and the potential inconvenience to others who depend on them. If incidents like this become more frequent, it may be time to become a little more conservative with the overbooking or maybe block some seats on all flights for employee repositioning/other unforeseen situations. I just hope all involved learned something here.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 am

DoctorVenkman wrote:
airliner371 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
The people on this thread defending UA are the type of people who would be the first to sue the company if it had been them knocked out by security. Not only did you get assaulted, injured and dragged out of a plan against your will, you are now being watched by millions all over the world who are watching the video! but thats fine because he didnt want to leave the plane that he paid for. Some people in this age enrage me!!!!!!


For the most part, I would defend UA in this situation. You have a non-compliant customer, UA reps asked this man multiple times to get off the aircraft, and after repeated attempts, UA called the police so the man would get off the plane. When the man didn't get off, the police removed him. Was this excessive force? Perhaps. I don't necessarily condone the police's actions, but the man was non-compliant, and I'm sorry, but there are a few places where compliance is more important than others, and airports/airplanes are one of them.

That said, if I were in the situation, and I had boarded and then been asked to step off because of an overbooking, I'd be pissed but I'd get off the aircraft. That's common sense. Staying in my seat in defiance doesn't mean the reps/cops are just gonna let the flight depart, it just escalates an already annoying situation.


Non-compliance is how bad rules get publicized and changed (see: civil rights, labor laws, etc.). Good for the doctor for standing up to a bad practice the airline industry has been practicing for years. Not sure I would have had the guts to do it myself.

So if I don't like the President and I want him changed, I should storm the White House? No, because there are some places that are inappropriate for said demonstrations.
 
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:52 am

Over the next few hours, news channels are going to air interviews with passengers who will give a blow-by-blow breakdown of what happened. It will of course be a bit overblown and exaggerated.

However, I've been reading passenger accounts on Reddit and they all say that the passenger was very polite. The lady manager laughed in the face of a passenger who said that they would volunteer for $1600. Also, nobody else volunteered because everyone was in shock and couldn't believe it. Once they saw the force the cops were using, they got scared. Lots of kids and teenagers on the plane who were quite disturbed when he came back bloody and delirious.

What's clear from passenger reports is that the man was not rude or nasty in any way. Others were willing to be bumped for more money. In trying to save $600 (1600 minus the 1000 they offered him), they've lost so much more. Along every step of the way they could have done better.

Plus, the /r/videos mod who deleted the upvoted post unleashed the wrath of users and now every page on Reddit is about United. That's certainly adding fuel to the already raging fire.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:53 am

United is always to quick to call security. It happened once upon a time when I flew United. Call security seems to be the easy out for them.

You could have left United out of the subject line and guess what, most if not all people on here would have guessed the correct offending airline.

Hoping for a world wide boycott on United, maybe that will wake them up.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:57 am

airliner371 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
airliner371 wrote:

For the most part, I would defend UA in this situation. You have a non-compliant customer, UA reps asked this man multiple times to get off the aircraft, and after repeated attempts, UA called the police so the man would get off the plane. When the man didn't get off, the police removed him. Was this excessive force? Perhaps. I don't necessarily condone the police's actions, but the man was non-compliant, and I'm sorry, but there are a few places where compliance is more important than others, and airports/airplanes are one of them.

That said, if I were in the situation, and I had boarded and then been asked to step off because of an overbooking, I'd be pissed but I'd get off the aircraft. That's common sense. Staying in my seat in defiance doesn't mean the reps/cops are just gonna let the flight depart, it just escalates an already annoying situation.


Non-compliance is how bad rules get publicized and changed (see: civil rights, labor laws, etc.). Good for the doctor for standing up to a bad practice the airline industry has been practicing for years. Not sure I would have had the guts to do it myself.

So if I don't like the President and I want him changed, I should storm the White House? No, because there are some places that are inappropriate for said demonstrations.


No, that's a ridiculous strawman argument. There was nothing violent or intimidating about what this passenger was doing; he was simply sitting in his seat and refusing to move. A more apt analogy to make would be sitting outside the White House to block the road. A peaceful yet disruptive protest - part of American history and culture that should be celebrated by all of its citizens who enjoy freedoms because of it.
 
77H
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:59 am

Midwestindy wrote:
77H wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
The people on this thread defending UA are the type of people who would be the first to sue the company if it had been them knocked out by security. Not only did you get assaulted, injured and dragged out of a plan against your will, you are now being watched by millions all over the world who are watching the video! but thats fine because he didnt want to leave the plane that he paid for. Some people in this age enrage me!!!!!!

I reckon the security individuals might get a knock on the door by police soon and UA will probably give a settlement to the man, who probably missed work as well and his patients were probably miffed as well if any of them were serious.


I'm a little confused at how you feel United is at fault here? We'll walk through this together so you can understand.

1) United had a fully booked flight.
2) Crew members for (Republic) a United Express contract carrier reported for the flight as a "Must Ride" due to operational needs of the company. They needed to be in SDF to operate an outbound flight the following day.
3) At that point, UA personnel solicited 4 passengers to volunteer to be re-booked with compensation and hotel accommodations.
4) No passengers volunteered after multiple attempts, each time at increasing amounts of compensation.
5) United was then forced to implement IDB. 3 of 4 passengers left the airplane without incident. 1 passenger, the passenger in question made a fuss.
6) After multiple attempts to de-board the passenger in a civil way, the customer got increasingly combative and belligerent.
7) At that point United called in Chicago Department of Aviation Law Enforcement to assist in the removal of the passenger.
8) Passenger was combative with Law Enforcement and was forcibly removed.

Is this the first time you have seen police be handsy with civilians? If so, I encourage you to turn on the news. Police assaulting civilians in the US is a daily issue. Is it because he is supposedly a doctor that people are up in arms? To me, a doctor should conduct themselves in a far better manner than this guy.

Second, if everyone else on board was so outraged by what was happening why did no one offer at that time to give up their seats? What enrages me is a punch of people sitting behind their camera phones and computers spouting off their misinformed opinions yet doing nothing to solve the situation. That day, every person on that plane thought only of themselves and thought they were the most important person on the plane. Which is unfortunately the norm these days. Self-entitlement.

You be sure to let me know if you need any other clarification on the flow through of events.
77H


You are right actually it is pretty simple, you see if UNITED would have boarded the crew first none of this would have happened, why would they have boarded those 4 passengers before the crew, if the crew was considered to be "MUST RIDE," its not like they didn't know the plane was full. Why board them if they would have to get off anyway. Not saying I agree with this by the way, but if they wanted to they could have boarded the crew first and then told the passengers there was no room on the plane before boarding. It would have killed two birds with one stone, the passenger would not have been assaulted and they could have handled the situation in the terminal (much easier and plane get depart on time). United is completely to blame with how they handled the situation, and of course this would have never happened if they wouldn't have placed crew members on a full flight.


If you read the order of events in my post you should have hopefully understood that the 4 crew members came to the gate AFTER, I repeat, AFTER boarding had concluded.

Consider this, the crew originally planned to operate the SDF outbound the next day timed out due to MTX, WX, etc (thats one scenario). Crew scheduling calls on its reserve crew roster to fill in. In most instances crew on reserve have a certain time to get the the airport ready for duty. The new crew arrives at the gate in question and advise the CSA they are a must ride due to their need to position to SDF to operate another flight. The CSA has already boarded all passengers and their are no remaining seats, including jump seats. CSA's must now solicit volunteers to de-board. No one volunteers, so they increase compensation. Again, no customers volunteer. The only thing the gate agent knows is that these crew members must be on board. At that point they have not choice but to involuntarily hold customers back. Again, 3/4 customers involuntarily denied boarding left the aircraft with no incident.

One customer, who valued himself over everyone else decided he wasn't getting up. UA tried multiple times to remove him in a civil way. When they had exhausted that option they called law enforcement. UA has no control over how Law Enforcement chooses to interact with their customer. Once law enforcement is called, how they handle it is up to the LEO's and the person in question.

77H
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:03 am

AngMoh wrote:
LA Times opinion: United finds a new way to make itself look awful, and then its CEO shows how to make things worse

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html


Great article, spot on in my opinion.
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jetfuel
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:04 am

UA CEO will end up resigning. His leaked email to UA staff is incriminating
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
ltbewr
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:06 am

One of the factors that made this bad is that more people are being more assertive and absolute about how treated by businesses they deal with. Many flyers are fed up with the declining respect by airlines toward them and anything that ignores their 'rights', treats them like a number will get you a bad reaction. Social media makes sure that your anger gets out their in seconds. All but a few on this flight likely had jobs or important reasons to get home that night, it wasn't their fault it was overbooked and everyone showed up. This was made worse by the need to get 4 crew to the destination airport to staff another flight the next day and the boneheaded handling of UA to work out the people to remove just made it explode all over the internet.
 
airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:06 am

DoctorVenkman wrote:
airliner371 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:

Non-compliance is how bad rules get publicized and changed (see: civil rights, labor laws, etc.). Good for the doctor for standing up to a bad practice the airline industry has been practicing for years. Not sure I would have had the guts to do it myself.

So if I don't like the President and I want him changed, I should storm the White House? No, because there are some places that are inappropriate for said demonstrations.


No, that's a ridiculous strawman argument. There was nothing violent or intimidating about what this passenger was doing; he was simply sitting in his seat and refusing to move. A more apt analogy to make would be sitting outside the White House to block the road. A peaceful yet disruptive protest - part of American history and culture that should be celebrated by all of its citizens who enjoy freedoms because of it.

From Google: Intimidate - frighten or overawe (someone), especially in order to make them do what one wants.
I'd argue the man was overawing (impress [someone] so much that they become silent or inhibited) the crew and police to allow him to fly.

I digress, an airplane is not a place to protest when people are already nervous and alert about flying, and worried about possible terrorism.
 
klkla
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:07 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the woman in near-hysterics, screaming, "OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!" and wondering, "Well, why didn't you volunteer to give up YOUR seat, then?" ;)


So you're trying to put this on her? Like she is responsible? Sick.
 
ocracoke
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:07 am

kellmark wrote:
They could have arranged for other transportation for their crew. We did that a number of times at my airline when we needed to move a crew. If there were no other flights, we would charter an air taxi, or arrange ground transportation if that was feasible. Louisville is not very far. We NEVER would remove paying customers from an aircraft after they already boarded for a crew movement. There are alternatives.

No passenger should EVER be treated this way.




Exactly. After the plane was boarded, instead of playing cowboy rodeo, UA simply could have found another routing for the crew; overbook the next SDF flight, and get the crew seats on that before they board that plane. Or,.... CVG, LEX, IND are all just a short hop, skip, and jump away from SDF. Send your crew to one of those cities, put them in a taxi, and issue solved. Or,...if none of that works,.... SDF is what?, 4 hours from Chicago? Hire a limo.

Calling the police because they couldn't handle a simple, self-brewed situation, is inexcusable.
 
klkla
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:11 am

airliner371 wrote:
No, its volunteer or someone gets bumped. The man got bumped and didn't get off the plane. Suddenly you have a non-compliant passenger and that is means for removal, regardless of being bumped.


But even the CEO admits they only offered $1000. By law they have to give $1350. They should have tried harder to find volunteers. Much harder.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:11 am

Can someone with UA tell us how passengers are selected for deboarding? I've read accounts that say the four passengers selected for deboarding were randomly selected. I find that hard to believe because a random selection means (1) a triple zillion miler gold-platinum fly the airline every day schmuck has the same chance of being selected as someone who bought the lowest price ticket and has never flown before, and (2) someone traveling with a small child may be selected, and the child not selected (or vice versa). I'd like to confirm that a non-random selection took place. Moreover, Reddit is claiming that a United manager told the passenger in question that he was selected because he paid the lowest fare -- is the fare part of the United criteria for selecting passengers to deboard?
 
grbauc
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:11 am

B752OS wrote:
This was not a gaffe - this was a major f*&$ up by United and they're being dragged through the mud for this.

The CEO releases a completely tone deaf response which only makes things worse.

United should have simply continued to increase the amount offered to passengers until 4 people volunteered. This would have avoided this whole mess.


Not nearly has much has one would think. Majority of people don't spend there time looking on forums so they can't get there inner OFFENDED generation outrage off.
 
GoSteelers
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:13 am

So the guy repeating, "just kill me... just kill me..." seems normal? I think, as most times in these situations, there is more to the story.
 
hoons90
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:14 am

jumbojet wrote:
Hoping for a world wide boycott on United, maybe that will wake them up.


I've been familiar with, and close to the travel and aviation community in Korea for a very long time. United already has a very poor reputation in Korea based on what I gather from Korean travel and aviation circles. American is somewhere in the middle, and Delta is considered to be the best out of the US airlines.

As soon as the news broke out of this egregious incident, most reactions that I have seen thus far are not so much of outrage, but more along the lines of "I wouldn't put it past United to do such a thing", etc., while sharing all the bad experiences they had with UA at the same time. This is a striking contrast to the reaction that people had when DL removed that obnoxious YouTube star from that LHR-JFK flight, once the testimonies started pouring in about his behaviour, from other passengers.

I hate to see an airline lose its way, but United needs a lot of work to do. Putting the customer first would be a good place to start.

Best of luck to everyone at United.
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airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:16 am

At the end of the day, everyone may be outraged, but within a week there will be another big story everyone is talking about and people will continue to fly whatever airline the offers the lowest price, whether that be United or some other airline.
 
Adipocere
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:17 am

How easy is it to spend this "United cash" that they insist on giving out instead of cash? Does it need a phone booking, triggering an automatic fee? Does it have an expiry date? Date blackouts? Route blackouts?
 
RightRudder
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:19 am

1. Buy a full-fare economy, preassigned ticket. (check) 2. Read Contract of Carriage. (check). 3. Arrive early at airport (check). 3. Get seat confirmed at counter (check). 4. Demonstrate business lounge membership card (check). Enjoy Cappuccino (check). Periodically verify flight monitor (check). Wait for early boarding (check).
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
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Classa64
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:23 am

So they said they were overbooked then Allowed Boarding knowing they were overbooked.... I don't get it. Seems it could have been avoided all together by just not letting four people on in the first place... But I guess that's to simple.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
blrsea
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:25 am

77H wrote:
Consider this, the crew originally planned to operate the SDF outbound the next day timed out due to MTX, WX, etc (thats one scenario). Crew scheduling calls on its reserve crew roster to fill in. In most instances crew on reserve have a certain time to get the the airport ready for duty. The new crew arrives at the gate in question and advise the CSA they are a must ride due to their need to position to SDF to operate another flight. The CSA has already boarded all passengers and their are no remaining seats, including jump seats. CSA's must now solicit volunteers to de-board. No one volunteers, so they increase compensation. Again, no customers volunteer. The only thing the gate agent knows is that these crew members must be on board. At that point they have not choice but to involuntarily hold customers back. Again, 3/4 customers involuntarily denied boarding left the aircraft with no incident.

One customer, who valued himself over everyone else decided he wasn't getting up. UA tried multiple times to remove him in a civil way. When they had exhausted that option they called law enforcement. UA has no control over how Law Enforcement chooses to interact with their customer. Once law enforcement is called, how they handle it is up to the LEO's and the person in question.

77H


It was United which needed those seats and it was Unite which had done the overbooking. They had a choice of increasing compensation to entice customers. But they decided to be cheap and preferred kicking off people by calling in LE instead of trying to deal properly with a mistake United had made. United did overbooking expecting some people to not show up, but all showed up. So they have to buy those seats back. Can't say we will overbook and deny you boarding by giving you money we think is worth your time!

Its like fuel hedging. You hedge assuming prices will move in a way advantageous to you. If they don't, you lose money. CX lost a bunch that way, they didn't call for LE help. Situation with overbooking is very similar to hedging. The airlines got the politicians in their pocket, so they can get away with it.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:25 am

GoSteelers wrote:
So the guy repeating, "just kill me... just kill me..." seems normal? I think, as most times in these situations, there is more to the story.


He had just been smacked in the head so hard that he passed out. He was most likely concussed. Confusion and odd behavior are common symptoms of someone with a concussion.
 
airliner371
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:26 am

Classa64 wrote:
So they said they were overbooked then Allowed Boarding knowing they were overbooked....

If there's one mistake I think United made, it was this. The passengers should not have been boarded until the overbooking situation was handled.
 
transswede
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:28 am

airliner371 wrote:
At the end of the day, everyone may be outraged, but within a week there will be another big story everyone is talking about and people will continue to fly whatever airline the offers the lowest price, whether that be United or some other airline.


Don't worry, United customer service will find *some* way to stay in the limelight. It is their special talent.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:28 am

Sausage making has always been a dirty thing, especially with millions of citizen journalist these days.

Ultimately one needs to remember airline (as in any private business) can refuse service and ask people to leave. In airline case its process of invoking involuntary denied boarding.

I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.

Over the years I've seen plenty of passengers (often drunk) end up in all types of altercations after refusing to follow crew or even worse security/law enforcement instructions while on the ground.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
transswede
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:32 am

LAXintl wrote:
I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.


This one is easy. Obviously increase the offer up to the maximum allowed. In cash. This is where they failed. Calling security should be the last option.
 
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PITingres
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:33 am

airliner371 wrote:
No, its volunteer or someone gets bumped. The man got bumped and didn't get off the plane. Suddenly you have a non-compliant passenger and that is means for removal, regardless of being bumped.


Try saying "non-compliant customer" instead and maybe you'll start to see the problem.

We don't fly to be "compliant". We fly to get where we're going, and pay money for it. That makes us customers. There are bad customers, for sure, but this guy wasn't one of them.

Kudos to those in the industry here who are "getting it". The rest of you are part of the problem.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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ssteve
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:34 am

airliner371 wrote:
Suddenly you have a non-compliant passenger


There you are, just sitting in your assigned seats, thinking, "Wow, flying sure is an exercise in being dehumanized these days, but we're boarded and my destination is just one hop away..." and then, WHAM, suddenly you have a non-compliant airline, willing to go above and beyond to prove they think you're just a meatsack.
 
socalgeo
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:39 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I don't understand why people are having a hard time unpacking this.

1) UA has blame for how they directly handled the denied boarding situation. As others pointed out above, the situation should have been resolved at the gate and they should have offered higher compensation.

2) The airport police are the ones to blame for escalating the situation to as far as it went in the video there. It's important to separate and distinguish the fact that UA did not order the passenger beaten. The blame for the violent treatment rests solely with the airport police.



Its only important to United and their shills to deflect blame for this. The fact of the matter is that United wanted to send 4 of its employees using seats that were already occupied. They didn't want to offer a reasonable compensation and thus chose the FREE services of the airport police to remove the "threat". A serious beat down of a 69 year old man ensued.

The only thing that gets United out of this jam is serious and sincere apologies and a visible change - IMO as a traveler, the CEO needs to go, and the gate agents need to be fired along with the flight crew and police. Public apologies to the victim with a serious settlement. Anything short of this will be laughed off.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:39 am

LAXintl wrote:
Sausage making has always been a dirty thing, especially with millions of citizen journalist these days.

Ultimately one needs to remember airline (as in any private business) can refuse service and ask people to leave. In airline case its process of invoking involuntary denied boarding.

I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.

Over the years I've seen plenty of passengers (often drunk) end up in all types of altercations after refusing to follow crew or even worse security/law enforcement instructions while on the ground.


UA should not have called law enforcement on a peaceful, calm passenger, regardless of whether or not they had the right to.

They could have offered more money to entice more passengers. They could have planned better so that the deadheading crew boarded before the passengers. They could have hired an air taxi (or a bus, Louisville is only 5 hrs from Chicago) for the crew. They had many peaceful alternatives yet escalated the situation by calling in police officers.
 
devyanks90
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:42 am

Why is it not the responsibility of the crew members to be where they are scheduled when required?

Couldn't they have left earlier on a confirmed flight? Which would have avoided all of this.
 
RightRudder
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:44 am

Classa64 wrote:
So they said they were overbooked then Allowed Boarding knowing they were overbooked.... I don't get it. Seems it could have been avoided all together by just not letting four people on in the first place... But I guess that's to simple.


Not sure if someone has already brought this up but pilot in command might of determined additional weight restrictions and needed to pull extra passengers. Just kill me! Just kill me! Lol
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:44 am

socalgeo wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I don't understand why people are having a hard time unpacking this.

1) UA has blame for how they directly handled the denied boarding situation. As others pointed out above, the situation should have been resolved at the gate and they should have offered higher compensation.

2) The airport police are the ones to blame for escalating the situation to as far as it went in the video there. It's important to separate and distinguish the fact that UA did not order the passenger beaten. The blame for the violent treatment rests solely with the airport police.



Its only important to United and their shills to deflect blame for this. The fact of the matter is that United wanted to send 4 of its employees using seats that were already occupied. They didn't want to offer a reasonable compensation and thus chose the FREE services of the airport police to remove the "threat". A serious beat down of a 69 year old man ensued.

The only thing that gets United out of this jam is serious and sincere apologies and a visible change - IMO as a traveler, the CEO needs to go, and the gate agents need to be fired along with the flight crew and police. Public apologies to the victim with a serious settlement. Anything short of this will be laughed off.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

United tried to be cheap, and that backfired on them. Typical case of a big corporation trying to browbeat a hapless passenger.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:45 am

transswede wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.


This one is easy. Obviously increase the offer up to the maximum allowed. In cash. This is where they failed. Calling security should be the last option.


Just for the sake of the argument, let's say the maximum was offered and there still weren't enough volunteers - then what should have been done in your opinion? Please understand that I'm not critiquing your stance, I just want to know what should happen next.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Scanorama
Posts: 148
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:46 am

LAXintl wrote:
Sausage making has always been a dirty thing, especially with millions of citizen journalist these days.

Ultimately one needs to remember airline (as in any private business) can refuse service and ask people to leave. In airline case its process of invoking involuntary denied boarding.

I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.

Over the years I've seen plenty of passengers (often drunk) end up in all types of altercations after refusing to follow crew or even worse security/law enforcement instructions while on the ground.

But this passenger isn't rowdy or drunk, he wasn't causing any type of altercation with anyone onboard. If the airline or any private business refuses service and ask paying customers to leave, they need to compensate accordingly, unless the said customer is a safety threat to the patrons or staff (which this man wasn't). You cannot compare this man to some drunks.

UA in this case should have increased their offer, in cash, until this man, or another passenger put their hand up and deboard voluntarily.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:46 am

LAXintl wrote:
Sausage making has always been a dirty thing, especially with millions of citizen journalist these days.

Ultimately one needs to remember airline (as in any private business) can refuse service and ask people to leave. In airline case its process of invoking involuntary denied boarding.

I guess the question is what should the airline do with customer that refuses to vacate the aircraft??
Obviously, law enforcement will be contacted, and so we end up potentially with an escalated or nasty outcome.

Over the years I've seen plenty of passengers (often drunk) end up in all types of altercations after refusing to follow crew or even worse security/law enforcement instructions while on the ground.


why is it involuntary denied boarding, if he was initially was allowed to board the plane, you may be thinking of another law or maybe I'm confused. To your main point, law enforcement needs to be called, however they need to understand that they need to use better judgement. A drunk passenger can be a danger to the aircraft and a danger to the safety of passengers and should be handled accordingly, but an older gentlemen who is not a threat to anyone or anything doesn't needed to be dragged around like he is some sort of rag doll.
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:47 am

transswede wrote:
This one is easy. Obviously increase the offer up to the maximum allowed. In cash. This is where they failed. Calling security should be the last option.


You miss differences between VDB and IDB.

Airline can opt to IDB right away essentially, and pay the statutory compensation.

There is zero need or requirement for continued or drawn out solicitation looking for VDBs. Ultimately just IDB and move on.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mantistobogn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:13 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:49 am

goCOgo wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Unless UA violated the contract of carriage -which does not appear to be the case based on the limited information available - this is no gaffe.


Exactly. Regardless of the merits of this particular individual, let's see...

- Failure to follow flight crew instructions - federal felony
- Failure to follow law enforcement instructions - state misdemeanor
- Resisting arrest - state felony

And there's probably an assault charge or two in there as well. I hope this guy has a large bank account, a good lawyer and enjoys his new friends at the Cook County hotel.


I hope you are being sarcastic. If not you are a truly sickening person.

"Failure to follow flight crew instructions" - you mean the instructions to leave in violation of the Contract of Carriage? Rule 21 spells out the only reasons United can remove someone from an aircraft, none of which applied to this customer. By boarding him, they threw Rule 25 out the window.

You sound like one of those cops that thinks they can arrest someone on the sole charge of resisting arrest.

This guy isn't going to Cook County Jail. He is instead going to split a few fat checks with his lawyer from United, Republic, and the O'Hare PD.


I cannot like this enough. I work for an airline and I'm truly disgusted by this. The deadheading crew could have been re-accommodated considering they were not due for 20 hours, including rest time.

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