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keesje
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:07 pm

If you are a Doctor or a brick layer, it makes no difference.


It sure matters in the PR department if its a bricklayer or a doctor.

Ask e.g. United :eyebrow:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:12 pm

rta wrote:
I don't understand what people expected Munoz to say to the employees.

"We made these rules, but we're not going to stand behind you when you enforce them"?

I get why people don't like his message, but I believe it was necessary to stand ground.


You can say that you don't think any rules were broken and still show compassion.

You can also say that even though rules were not broken you don't think the situation should ever end like this. (That there is still something wrong with that.)

To express regret for having to "accommodate" passengers and nothing else was just bad form.

Ironically, with his "accommodation" not only does he make United look worse from a PR standpoint, but he also makes them look more guilty. You don't say you are sorry if you think that may be interpreted as evidence of wrongdoing when there clearly was some wrongdoing.
 
irelayer
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Wow, this is nothing short of a disaster for UA. Even if they were right, they are going to take a big hit.

-IR
 
socalgeo
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:16 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
rta wrote:
I don't understand what people expected Munoz to say to the employees.

"We made these rules, but we're not going to stand behind you when you enforce them"?

I get why people don't like his message, but I believe it was necessary to stand ground.


You can say that you don't think any rules were broken and still show compassion.

You can also say that even though rules were not broken you don't think the situation should ever end like this. (That there is still something wrong with that.)

To express regret for having to "accommodate" passengers and nothing else was just bad form.

Ironically, with his "accommodation" not only does he make United look worse from a PR standpoint, but he also makes them look more guilty. You don't say you are sorry if you think that may be interpreted as evidence of wrongdoing when there clearly was some wrongdoing.

It looks like United's stock is getting reaccomodated today. Down 4% last I looked.
 
smaragdz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:16 pm

ikramerica wrote:
The airline has the right to simply deplane 4 people.


Some commentators in this thread have provided evidence to the contrary -- would you be able to back this statement up further? To remove doubt.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:18 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
A couple of things I'm finding very frustrating about aviation (not only in the US) in general:

1.) The "We do this to stop another 911" type argument, which the speaker generally thinks gives them the right (perhaps it does by the letter of the law) to do anything to anyone in the name of safety. 911 should have taught us all to be more alert, but more importantly smarter. At what point should any extra authority granted to employees or officers within the aviation industry after 911 be used to deal with an overbooking? Never.

2.) The captain has 100% authority (is that the case in this instance as the doors were not closed?). If the captain has 100% authority, then I want 100% confidence that the captain will use that authority correctly ~100% of the time. In the air, I'll take his word for it. On the ground, at the gate... really? Force a paying customer off a flight risking physical harm (to other passengers too) so that you can board an employee? Do that at your peril.

I don't know what I would have done in this situation because I've never been in this situation. I would like to think that I would do exactly the same as the gentleman involved. As soon as you use the "our authority is total" on me when I am paying you money and have done zero wrong, be absolutely sure you want the resulting outcome.

Yes he could have obeyed LEA officials, but what would have happened after? We don't know what price this man paid for his flight. We don't know what emotional, financial or other damage might be incurred by him because of this de-planning. We only *know* he was offered $800 and a hotel room. That might be less than he paid for his ticket. How about multiplying that by 10 before you try using force. Maybe you might make billions next year too.

If the law backs the actions involved in removing this gentleman then the law needs to change. If United go under in the meantime, so be it.

If he paid $800 for his ticket he would not have been chosen. The system choosing you based on a combination of factors including minimal cost of compensation.

I do not want any law to be changed that would justify criminal actions to settle a civil dispute. If you had the right to disrupt the business of someone who you have a contractual disagreement through trespass and resisting arrest, our country would be a very different place and it would not be a better place.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bugsbegone
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:18 pm

ExDubai wrote:
bugsbegone wrote:
Have you guys read one of the passengers' testimony on reddit?

Apparently, when the doctor refused to deplane, another passenger offered UA $1600 to volunteer, and was laughed at by the crew. So this situation could have been solved then and there if United wasn't so cheap.

Do you have a link to the posting?


https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comment ... a/dg2pbtj/

They​ posted a picture of their ticket as proof, you can find it if you check their post history.

Also, I watched some interviews of the passengers, and the doctor wasn't the only one to refuse, so the story that 3 other passengers deplaned could be a lie. But the doctor initially volunteered, before he was informed he would have to wait till the next day to fly, so maybe that's why he was pressured.
Last edited by bugsbegone on Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:19 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
2.) The captain has 100% authority (is that the case in this instance as the doors were not closed?). If the captain has 100% authority, then I want 100% confidence that the captain will use that authority correctly ~100% of the time. In the air, I'll take his word for it. On the ground, at the gate... really? Force a paying customer off a flight risking physical harm (to other passengers too) so that you can board an employee? Do that at your peril.


Captain doesn't have authority when the door is open. Plane belongs to gate agent/Ops.
 
moby147
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:19 pm

I live & work in the UK, this story has been all over the main news (all stations) today.

I am staggered that ANYONE can find a reason to support United on this I am lucky I do not have to travel on USA airlines but have travelled on airlines from many other parts of the world & have never seen any fare paying passenger who is sitting in the seat HE has paid for be treat is such a way.

If that now means I will never book an American airline so be it, I only hope that many thousands do likewise!
 
jreuschl
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Of course, now there is smearing going on and there are reports that this doctor has had issues in past and has had his license revoked. Doesn't change what happened though.

I think another issue with UA's statement is that they are going to work with authorities first, then conduct their own review.
 
smaragdz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Flighty wrote:
Calder wrote:
If you openly defy instructions and declare your alternative agenda for a flight, you will be removed, and if you require force, you will get force. And my catch phrase seems to be, there is no limit to the amount of force at the authorities disposal to enforce order in the skies and at the airport. No limit. You will not win. Even 40 armed men won't win.


Serious question. If they ask you to do handstands up and down the aisle in order to remain on the flight, would you comply?
 
kavok
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:23 pm

Legally, the Montgomery Bus Service was following the law when they removed Rosa Parks for not giving up her seat when asked by the bus driver. In fact, her "violation" of the law (at the time) was much more clean cut.

Just because it was legal doesn't mean it was right. Oscar chose to defend "the law", and not Ms. Parks.
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:24 pm

You are trying to equate an order to leave with an order to do handstands?

Anyway, Mrs Parks was right, that's why she is a strong role model. A thousand homeless drunks per day are removed from buses for misconduct. The difference is, they aren't right so history forgets them.
Last edited by Flighty on Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:25 pm

Someone suggested that the whole plane be deplaned and then all reboarded -4, which sounds good until you factor in that this might have timed out the crew and meant nobody goes.

Again, the only reason this is national news is because of the criminal actions of the doctor leading to a conflict. But like most of these national "abuse of authority" scandals, the criminal actor is rarely blamed. Especially if a bloody nose is involved.

a
Varsity1 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
2.) The captain has 100% authority (is that the case in this instance as the doors were not closed?). If the captain has 100% authority, then I want 100% confidence that the captain will use that authority correctly ~100% of the time. In the air, I'll take his word for it. On the ground, at the gate... really? Force a paying customer off a flight risking physical harm (to other passengers too) so that you can board an employee? Do that at your peril.


Captain doesn't have authority when the door is open. Plane belongs to gate agent/Ops.

Because the flight hasn't begun, boarding ISNT COMPLETE, and thus the passengers haven't completed the boarding process.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:27 pm

Flighty wrote:
You are trying to equate an order to leave with an order to do handstands?

If both are unreasonable or for unreasonable reasons then why is there a difference?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:28 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Someone suggested that the whole plane be deplaned and then all reboarded -4, which sounds good until you factor in that this might have timed out the crew and meant nobody goes.

However it was in fact deplaned and then all reboarded.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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diverdave
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Flighty wrote:
If passengers physically resist the lawful process, that is assault, and they will go to jail. Somehow, almost everybody does fine with it. Only one guy is verified to have done anything wrong, the doctor.


I cannot comprehend how passive resistance becomes assault. Could you elaborate?

ikramerica wrote:
Third, the clause concerning the least impact: delaying this crew would have impacted 70 passengers tomorrow, while denying boarding impacts 4 passengers. Is the rule regarding this flight and this flight only or can follow on effects be considered


Since the flight in question was delayed several hours, I would imagine the 70 passengers did get impacted due to rest requirements for the deadheading crew.

It is interesting that the airline insiders here seem to think that we passengers give up all of our rights when we board their aircraft. The airline business is a people business. If you can't deal with people, go work for a cargo airline.

Perhaps this incident will finally result in passengers getting some real rights.
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Tugger wrote:
Flighty wrote:
You are trying to equate an order to leave with an order to do handstands?

If both are unreasonable or for unreasonable reasons then why is there a difference?

Tugg


Whether the boarding process and dispatch process is reasonable is a good question that will be looked at thanks to this hellfire. But the fact the guy is a highly dubious doctor with a criminal record doesn't convince me he has any special expertise.
 
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enilria
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:30 pm

bmacleod wrote:
I thought the merger with CO was supposed to fix UA - apparently not and likely smearing former CO officials if they were involved in this terrible incident.

Conflict resolution training a must for airline employees.

https://www.online.colostate.edu/certificates/conflict-resolution-mediation-certificate/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=3-crm-170215-cpc-google&gclid=CMP8yefFnNMCFVRWDQodj1QDag

Here's the thing. A computer program now decides who gets offloaded. The agents make zero decisions any more. With no ability to influence anything there is really no ability to resolve anything.

kavok wrote:
Legally, the Montgomery Bus Service was following the law when they removed Rosa Parks for not giving up her seat when asked by the bus driver. In fact, her "violation" of the law (at the time) was much more clean cut.

That's an excellent point and one I had not seen made. A hush just came over the crowd!
 
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GCT64
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:31 pm

Oscar Munoz's own words on LinkedIn on 26th August 2016 (very easy to find the whole article if you want to read it):

"At United Airlines, every year we serve more than 140 million passengers around the globe, around the clock, every day. That’s 140 million stories – of a young professional whose career depends on making that last flight out today; of friends who need to get to that wedding on time; of a parent who can’t miss tucking in their children. Every passenger matters. Each flight counts. That is a profound responsibility that we take seriously.

To be honest, too often in the past, a discourteous comment, a missed connection, or an unhelpful service experience left customers – not to mention many of our own employees - with a negative feeling towards United. My task is to turn that around, and it starts with instilling a culture of caring and trust at every level."

How on earth does he reconcile writing that (only 6 months ago) with his company's behaviour and his own response to that behaviour?
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Flyer732
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:32 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Flyer732 wrote:
sw733 wrote:

I was wondering who would be the first person to post this. Here's the thing...I subcontract some of my work out to other people. If one of them screws up, it's still my company's name on it. You take that risk when you subcontract work out. There are pros and cons to it...if you're willing to take on the pros, you MUST take on the cons. This is one of those cons, so United better deal with it better than they have so far.


Well, the agents, supervisors and managers are all United. Only the flight crew and plane are Republic. Republic really had nothing to do with the situation other than it occurring on their aircraft. United handled all the rest.



Gates agents could have been UA or YX. Larger regionals do alot of their own ground handling.


They were UA, YX does not staff gate agents or ground handlers.
 
Noshow
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:33 pm

I see all those (claimed) details about the passenger`s past as just negative spin doctering to put him under pressure. He is a paying, boarded customer who was treated wrong and that is what upsets the public.
 
Desh
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:38 pm

Totally unacceptable. The guy was a paying customer - this level of violence is never acceptable in this situation. Other airlines take note. Oscar Munoz is the most tone deaf CEO - sooner or later he will have to apologize better than what he managed to muster. This story is catching fire in China - they have lost almost a Billion dollars in market cap this morning. If not for the right reason - beating up a paying customer for not "volunteering" , then for the wrong one - stem the drop in share price.

Buh bye United.
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again." - Kurt Vonnegut
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:40 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
The bottom line is, if a police officer asks you on behalf of a property owner to leave their property, you get up and you leave. You go and file a complaint if you feel you have been discriminated against or otherwise done harm. Standing your ground and refusing to leave is a quick way to escalate a situation, as we have seen here.


Or, as those of you with union backgrounds will remember from your shop stewards, "Comply first, grieve it later." You can always file a grievance/lawsuit later, if warranted, but lack of compliance on your part only makes things worse.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
bgm
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Flighty wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Flighty wrote:
You are trying to equate an order to leave with an order to do handstands?

If both are unreasonable or for unreasonable reasons then why is there a difference?

Tugg


Whether the boarding process and dispatch process is reasonable is a good question that will be looked at thanks to this hellfire. But the fact the guy is a highly dubious doctor with a criminal record doesn't convince me he has any special expertise.


You're focusing on the itty bitty details instead of the bigger picture. Do you work for UA? This is precisely why they are in such hot water now: not only was the event horrendous, but the way they have dealt with it is even worse.

Regardless of the technical legality of what happened, the result is really really bad PR. It's in the news all over the world.

People are upset and angry because they know next time it could be them. They need to vote with their wallets and ditch this horrible airline. Perhaps then they might finally wake up and smell the coffee and start responding appropriately.

At least it takes the heat off DL's recent cluster. They must be relieved!
 
SooLineRob
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:41 pm

ikramerica wrote:

I do not want any law to be changed that would justify criminal actions to settle a civil dispute. If you had the right to disrupt the business of someone who you have a contractual disagreement through trespass and resisting arrest, our country would be a very different place and it would not be a better place.


Bingo. We have a winner. But for the "wrong" reason...

If this whole episode is a "contractual dispute" (between the airline company and the passenger customer, the two parties "signatory" to the CoC agreement)), since when does law enforcement get involved based on the verbal wishes of one party and enforce that party's will?
 
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RWA380
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:41 pm

This was ORD for God's sake. Are you telling me, that between 2:55 in the afternoon & sometime shortly after, UA couldn't sub for a larger aircraft to fly the last SDF flight & take all of the overbooks? UA failed in a big way, fork out $1600 to a volunteer to keep the peace. Anything but taking a fare paying passenger, kicking & screaming, bloodied & hurt off of your flight. UA PR nightmare. Sorry UA, nobody is going to accept or buy, that this was the best way, to get your way.

I know at least a couple of people who will never fly UA again, myself included. I've flown as a passenger quite a bit & can say with 100% assurance, I've never witnessed such deplorable behaviour by an airline towards ANY passenger, fare paying or not. Just goes to show how much customer service & interests have been discarded in favor of ontime stats & gate & aircraft use.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:42 pm

enilria wrote:
Here's the thing. A computer program now decides who gets offloaded. The agents make zero decisions any more. With no ability to influence anything there is really no ability to resolve anything.


Then the change is easy. Passengers already seated in their assigned seats go. Passengers not yet seated (or airline employees) do not. THE CUSTOMER COMES FIRST.

If the passengers are still in the terminal, there may be some room to negotiate. But if you deplane a ticketed passenger who seated and ready to go, he'd better have a bomb or is otherwise a danger to the aircraft. Otherwise there is no excuse.

As others have said, what united did might be legal, strictly speaking, but in no way was it right, and I really hope that people making travel plans let United know about it.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:43 pm

Desh wrote:
this level of violence is never acceptable in this situation.


Perhaps not, but I'm not in law enforcement, so that's not really for me to answer. I do know that had the LEOs not used the amount of force shown in the video, this story wouldn't be a story in the least, and that's ultimately not United's fault.

Should they have done more to avoid being in the position of calling the police? Absolutely! But, once the man refused to leave the aircraft, he was trespassing, and then law enforcement gets called to correct the situation.

And as was stated earlier, the police will first ask you to comply, then they'll tell you to comply, and if you still don't do as directed, they will make you comply by force.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
SCQ83
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:45 pm

This is clearly not another "Legginsgate" and this has the potential to become a McDonald's coffee case in the air travel.

Btw UA is down 3.90% today.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:48 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Third, the clause concerning the least impact: delaying this crew would have impacted 70 passengers tomorrow, while denying boarding impacts 4 passengers. Is the rule regarding this flight and this flight only or can follow on effects be considered

Remember, the bad press is mostly because this man decided to conduct a sit in protest and resisted arrest and seems to have tripped and hurt himself during the struggle. No matter what the circumstances, I know I don't want someone to be allowed to remain on my flight who struggles with police. Seems as soon as he did that he became a safety risk and had to be removed, even if by force. What is the alternative? Cancel the whole flight? Allow a passenger to continue on who refuses to comply with flight crew and police?

Granted it wouldn't have happened if they didn't try to make him go, but it also wouldn't have happened if he didn't say "no, I'm a doctor, I'm too important." And refused to cooperate.

I am nearly positive there would have been minimal impact to "70 passengers tomorrow". The airline would have found another crew as the often do or rescheduled the passengers to other flights or any other of the various tools airlines have to address these situations. Yes, of course there may have been impacts but your statement has no more credence than mine.

And you answered your question at the end. United literally started it and did not do the right thing.


Flighty wrote:
Tugger wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
No. This problem is only getting worse because passengers look at it as a greed fueled payday. $1600 is utterly ridiculous.

The airline has the right to simply deplane 4 people. Volunteer compensation is a courtesy to help find people who's time isn't that valuable. Statutory compensation is actually set by law.

Once IDB starts, you can't entertain sob stories and then allow people to weasel out. And this is not a protest where passive resistence is appropriate.

Why is $1600 ridiculous? It is there seat they bought, the airline sold it (with contractual exceptions of course!) and now the airline wants to claim it back for their own needs and not because of flight safety or anything like that. Just make an offer and increase it until you have acceptance. The market value will sort itself out (you may then decide to move crew differently) and you will never have a situation like this again. Simple.

Also your "set by law" is not correct. There is a "legal maximum" that an airline can absolutely go beyond and many do. So it shouldn't be confused that there is a maximum that an airline can't exceed. They can, they just aren't required by law to do so.

And yes, passive resistance is appropriate when someone is doing something to you that you do not agree to, taking something that your purchased properly due to a need you had. The airlines "need" in situations like this is not superior to the customers.

Tugg


I am not sure how to translate that "equality" mindset into a realistic airline operation, but it is really interesting. Should there be a voting group of passengers relating to the boarding process, and the flight navigation process? What if a passenger wants to stop in another place, should the passenger have the authority to tell the captain to land?

Yes, you could legislate that paying passengers are always superior to company crews on the priority list. This would exacerbate delays nationwide and boost prices. It would be a boon to the air taxi industry. It would also further congest airpace with charter flights, extending the delays yet more. But if this is a new legal requirement, of course the airlines can do that. On balance that probably harms customers, as knee jerk legislation so often does.

I want to stress that simple solutions that sound good on Twitter actually don't survive the thorough analysis that yielded the current set of procedures. Including security procedures that work, and that aren't going away. United is in a tough spot, because they did everything right, but trashing companies is so fun, and gives people so much pleasure.

Image
I didn't not say anything to where you are trying to drag my comment. I did not say the customer is superior, I said the airlines need is not superior to the customer. And I am not saying anything regarding "equality" and voting rights etc. That is just silly and I think a deflection tactic.

And finally you keeping trying to say that United "did everything right" but they very much did not. Or this would not have happened. There were other option available to them that they chose not to take. The were in control of and created the situation. The rules may have allowed what they did but United most definitely did not "do everything right".

jreuschl wrote:
Of course, now there is smearing going on and there are reports that this doctor has had issues in past and has had his license revoked. Doesn't change what happened though.

I think another issue with UA's statement is that they are going to work with authorities first, then conduct their own review.

Well that will be another increase in the payment to the customer. By their actions and the public notice they created the mans reputation may be ruined on a scale that would not otherwise have occurred. If not for United's actions and failure to handle this situation correctly no one would the nation would not know of the doctor and he would not be being researched by so many. They created a situation that might lead top the man's reputation being publicly and nationally (internationally?) known and then smeared. Sure its because of actions he took in the past but he was otherwise anonymous and now United's actions have made him widely known.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:51 pm

indcwby wrote:
I like Jimmy Kimmel's take on this situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV28_EN ... e=youtu.be


This was hysterical!
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tlecam
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:53 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Someone suggested that the whole plane be deplaned and then all reboarded -4, which sounds good until you factor in that this might have timed out the crew and meant nobody goes.

Again, the only reason this is national news is because of the criminal actions of the doctor leading to a conflict. But like most of these national "abuse of authority" scandals, the criminal actor is rarely blamed. Especially if a bloody nose is involved.

a
Varsity1 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
2.) The captain has 100% authority (is that the case in this instance as the doors were not closed?). If the captain has 100% authority, then I want 100% confidence that the captain will use that authority correctly ~100% of the time. In the air, I'll take his word for it. On the ground, at the gate... really? Force a paying customer off a flight risking physical harm (to other passengers too) so that you can board an employee? Do that at your peril.


Captain doesn't have authority when the door is open. Plane belongs to gate agent/Ops.

Because the flight hasn't begun, boarding ISNT COMPLETE, and thus the passengers haven't completed the boarding process.


YOu state that as if it's fact. If you have the contractual definition available, by all means please share it. Or if you have the citations that form precedent, please share them. However, not a single lawyer I've spoken to agrees that your definition is legally clear.
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Virtual737
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:56 pm

ikramerica wrote:
I do not want any law to be changed that would justify criminal actions to settle a civil dispute. If you had the right to disrupt the business of someone who you have a contractual disagreement through trespass and resisting arrest, our country would be a very different place and it would not be a better place.



I absolutely agree with you but please bear in mind that in law, this gentleman went from paying customer to trespasser by doing nothing wrong (in the view of the vast majority of commentators). The law is in place to serve the people, not itself. The business of United was disrupted by their inability to ensure rostered crew were in position without having to disrupt paying passengers.


ikramerica wrote:
Again, the only reason this is national news is because of the criminal actions of the doctor leading to a conflict.


I would bet money that many hundreds of thousands of people disagree with you. The conflict existed well before any potential criminal action by the doctor, and it was not of his doing.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:58 pm

I know it's Fox News, sorry, but: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04 ... -feds.html

"The U.S. Department of Transportation is reviewing United Airlines' widely criticized handling of a passenger who was forcibly removed from a plane that had been overbooked.
A group of lawmakers also is calling for a congressional investigation into the case, as well as a closer look at the policies of airlines when a flight is at capacity."
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kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:59 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Oscar Munoz's own words on LinkedIn on 26th August 2016 (very easy to find the whole article if you want to read it):

"At United Airlines, every year we serve more than 140 million passengers around the globe, around the clock, every day. That’s 140 million stories – of a young professional whose career depends on making that last flight out today; of friends who need to get to that wedding on time; of a parent who can’t miss tucking in their children. Every passenger matters. Each flight counts. That is a profound responsibility that we take seriously.

To be honest, too often in the past, a discourteous comment, a missed connection, or an unhelpful service experience left customers – not to mention many of our own employees - with a negative feeling towards United. My task is to turn that around, and it starts with instilling a culture of caring and trust at every level."

How on earth does he reconcile writing that (only 6 months ago) with his company's behaviour and his own response to that behaviour?

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blrsea
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:00 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Should they have done more to avoid being in the position of calling the police? Absolutely! But, once the man refused to leave the aircraft, he was trespassing, and then law enforcement gets called to correct the situation.

And as was stated earlier, the police will first ask you to comply, then they'll tell you to comply, and if you still don't do as directed, they will make you comply by force.


The man had paid for this ticket, he was NOT a trespasser. He had paid for his ticket, was sitting quietly minding his business when UA decided it wanted to steal his paid seat for their own employees because they goofed up. Yup, its actually UA pointing a gun to the customer's head and taking his seat. The customer who had paid for his ticket was NOT trespassing.

It doesn't even fall into any reasonable reasons for the airlines to forcibly taking the boarded passenger's seat for their own wasting his time and money in the process. Its like a person sits down to a meal at a restaurant and has food brought to his table, but before he can eat, the restaurant owner takes away food saying one of his employees his hungry and needs it, asking him to come back next day & not caring whether the person who paid for meal was starving or not.
 
eal46859
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:03 pm

I promise, this is not to blame the victim.. but he lost his medical license for some malfeasance a while ago..

Regardless of how UA got to the point that they had to deplane 4 passengers... (and clearly they should have blocked 4 seats off before boarding even began for the 4 must ride crew members)
most likely the gate agent after not getting any takers at $800 probably should have upped to the $1350 they probably had to pay out anyway. The agent likely came back on board with the winners of the "lottery". Three of the four apparently got up and left. And then likely a FA approached the him and asked him to leave. He refused. So the police or security agents came on board .. 3 big men (and not UA employees) and probably asked him again, he refused so they dragged him off.

I'm not sure why UA is getting all of the bad rap here.. the security /police manhandled the guy and the passenger is not a complete innocent either.

I have been in a similar situation... the aircraft for my flight a DL 757 a few years ago, had been was substituted for a new in the system, a former NW 757, but had the old seat map, and the seat map had two seats that didn't exist. I was assigned to one.
In my case, at the last minute DL quickly deplaned, ( I assume a 2 non rev's) and we were on our way. But I would not have fought to stay one the plane.. plus I suppose since I was standing in the aisle right next to the door, it would have been pretty easy escort me off!
 
F9Animal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:03 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Oscar Munoz's own words on LinkedIn on 26th August 2016 (very easy to find the whole article if you want to read it):

"At United Airlines, every year we serve more than 140 million passengers around the globe, around the clock, every day. That’s 140 million stories – of a young professional whose career depends on making that last flight out today; of friends who need to get to that wedding on time; of a parent who can’t miss tucking in their children. Every passenger matters. Each flight counts. That is a profound responsibility that we take seriously.

To be honest, too often in the past, a discourteous comment, a missed connection, or an unhelpful service experience left customers – not to mention many of our own employees - with a negative feeling towards United. My task is to turn that around, and it starts with instilling a culture of caring and trust at every level."

How on earth does he reconcile writing that (only 6 months ago) with his company's behaviour and his own response to that behaviour?


I am willing to bet Oscar is furious beyond words. I am also confident that several lawyers advised him on what to say, and what not to say. Personally, if I was the CEO...... I would have come in like a wrecking ball. If something like this happened at Southwest when Herb was CEO, he would have likely come in like a tank.

I am willing to bet heads will roll, if they have not already. While many are slamming Oscar for his tweet, I am certain behind the scenes, he is slobbering furious. Wouldn't you be if you were the CEO? I am also certain there will be some big changes on how UA handles overbooked flights. Not just that, but I am pretty sure other airlines are already learning lessons from this.

To be fair. This isn't just a United problem.... This is an industry wide problem.
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sergegva
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:04 pm

blrsea wrote:
I don't understand using these vouchers as a compensation. Many leisure flyers would fly once or twice a year at most. Whats the use of these vouchers, especially if they have an expiration date. its worthless. Better to offer cash as compensation


Same here. This is the biggest thing I don't understand here. Would I have been on this flight, I would have say no to a 1000 $ voucher and yes to 500 $ cash. In a given flight, how many people will fly again with the same airline the same year? I bet less than 50% (in general - maybe this particular flight was FF heavy). A voucher is useless if you are not flying again soon. And more useless if you are a tourist not from America. It's closer to an incentive to fly again, a marketing product, than a compensation. Offering vouchers is stupid if you want to find voluntaries... you will get more money if they denied boarding, at least in Europe (UE 261/2004 rule & Montreal's convention for collateral damages).

If I resume, their proposal was like, take 0 $ cash and leave, or we call the police ? They were not able to find something inbetween?!!

If I'm not mistaken, no one ask the following questions:

> Is it a rule at United Airlines to never offer cash to volunteers in case of overbooking? (this was not an overbooking case, but let's say it was).
> Their offer was another flight almost 24h later. Why didn't they try to rebook volunteers in another flight, sooner, with another airline? They were all 100% full, to the point it was impossible to find 4 seats?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:07 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
A couple of things I'm finding very frustrating about aviation (not only in the US) in general:

1.) The "We do this to stop another 911" type argument, which the speaker generally thinks gives them the right (perhaps it does by the letter of the law) to do anything to anyone in the name of safety. 911 should have taught us all to be more alert, but more importantly smarter. At what point should any extra authority granted to employees or officers within the aviation industry after 911 be used to deal with an overbooking? Never.

2.) The captain has 100% authority (is that the case in this instance as the doors were not closed?). If the captain has 100% authority, then I want 100% confidence that the captain will use that authority correctly ~100% of the time. In the air, I'll take his word for it. On the ground, at the gate... really? Force a paying customer off a flight risking physical harm (to other passengers too) so that you can board an employee? Do that at your peril.

I don't know what I would have done in this situation because I've never been in this situation. I would like to think that I would do exactly the same as the gentleman involved. As soon as you use the "our authority is total" on me when I am paying you money and have done zero wrong, be absolutely sure you want the resulting outcome.

Yes he could have obeyed LEA officials, but what would have happened after? We don't know what price this man paid for his flight. We don't know what emotional, financial or other damage might be incurred by him because of this de-planning. We only *know* he was offered $800 and a hotel room. That might be less than he paid for his ticket. How about multiplying that by 10 before you try using force. Maybe you might make billions next year too.

If the law backs the actions involved in removing this gentleman then the law needs to change. If United go under in the meantime, so be it.

If he paid $800 for his ticket he would not have been chosen. The system choosing you based on a combination of factors including minimal cost of compensation.

I do not want any law to be changed that would justify criminal actions to settle a civil dispute. If you had the right to disrupt the business of someone who you have a contractual disagreement through trespass and resisting arrest, our country would be a very different place and it would not be a better place.


Every industry selling the same wares twice would risk it being called fraud, the airline industry has a nicer name, overbooking. Tickets are not sold from A to B at an undetermined date and time, they are sold on a certain flight on a certain date on a certain time, payment is done at the time the flight is ordered.
Fraud is a daily occurrence with airlines. Seat on airplanes are deliberately sold more than once, in the hope somebody will not show. On cheaper flights flights the no show has payed the seat flown, but airlines are that greedy that they have tried to sell this seat again to get it paid twice.
If a customer has paid for a flight 3 month in advance and therefore got a good deal, the airline takes itself the right to deny that customer the seat he has bought, to give it to somebody who has paid more for that seat. Furthermore the airline takes itself the right to deny the customer the seat on the airplane any time the airline needs this seat for its own employees. Any other industry the talk would be about fraud, here the talk is about overbooking.
When now the customer does not agree to be defrauded, to get the service he has ordered and paid for, it seems to be OK to call out the thugs and beat him up for the good of the airline.

Now the airline had been flying four crew to the place were their next flight leaves the next morning. Let us assume the airline has booked rooms, let us assume they were prepaid to be sure that the crew would get those rooms. What would the airline say if there was exhibition or conference in that town, no other rooms free and those rooms would have been given to a walk in, paying twice the rate of what the airline paid for those rooms. The hotel is prepared to refund the airline the prepayment, or offering the airline four rooms the next night. I assume the airline would have been ecstatic, having realised that the hotel has learned how to do proper business.
 
kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:10 pm

F9Animal wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
Oscar Munoz's own words on LinkedIn on 26th August 2016 (very easy to find the whole article if you want to read it):

"At United Airlines, every year we serve more than 140 million passengers around the globe, around the clock, every day. That’s 140 million stories – of a young professional whose career depends on making that last flight out today; of friends who need to get to that wedding on time; of a parent who can’t miss tucking in their children. Every passenger matters. Each flight counts. That is a profound responsibility that we take seriously.

To be honest, too often in the past, a discourteous comment, a missed connection, or an unhelpful service experience left customers – not to mention many of our own employees - with a negative feeling towards United. My task is to turn that around, and it starts with instilling a culture of caring and trust at every level."

How on earth does he reconcile writing that (only 6 months ago) with his company's behaviour and his own response to that behaviour?


I am willing to bet Oscar is furious beyond words. I am also confident that several lawyers advised him on what to say, and what not to say. Personally, if I was the CEO...... I would have come in like a wrecking ball. If something like this happened at Southwest when Herb was CEO, he would have likely come in like a tank.

I am willing to bet heads will roll, if they have not already. While many are slamming Oscar for his tweet, I am certain behind the scenes, he is slobbering furious. Wouldn't you be if you were the CEO? I am also certain there will be some big changes on how UA handles overbooked flights. Not just that, but I am pretty sure other airlines are already learning lessons from this.

To be fair. This isn't just a United problem.... This is an industry wide problem.

Sure, CEO is very upset about what this done to the stocks.
Subtle difference is that I don't believe he is truly upset about the original situation, just about consequences.
 
737max8
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:13 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
737max8 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
United's mistake here, and what could bring it legal liability, is that the passengers were already boarded. It's one thing when boarding is denied, but it's quite another when boarding is allowed and then volunteers are asked to deplane for someone else. (If passengers are asked to deplane because of a weight restriction, that's different, as the idea is to avoid needing to make an en-route fuel stop.)


He was boarded, then denied. Guess what two words I still used?

They were willing to rebook and pay the man per IDB rules but he refused and didn't follow instructions.


Despite your snarky attitude, words (and their order) have significance in law. It is not clear that UA was within their legal right to eject him from the plane once he had boarded.


Where does it say Denied Boarding can only happen before you get to the airplane?

This all happened during the boarding process. Refusal of travel is when you outright won't let someone fly, not trying to deny boarding and accommodate.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:16 pm

bugsbegone wrote:
Have you guys read one of the passengers' testimony on reddit?

Apparently, when the doctor refused to deplane, another passenger offered UA $1600 to volunteer, and was laughed at by the crew. So this situation could have been solved then and there if United wasn't so cheap.


lol who is laughing now!
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kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:18 pm

737max8 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
737max8 wrote:

He was boarded, then denied. Guess what two words I still used?

They were willing to rebook and pay the man per IDB rules but he refused and didn't follow instructions.


Despite your snarky attitude, words (and their order) have significance in law. It is not clear that UA was within their legal right to eject him from the plane once he had boarded.


Where does it say Denied Boarding can only happen before you get to the airplane?

This all happened during the boarding process. Refusal of travel is when you outright won't let someone fly, not trying to deny boarding and accommodate.

Where does it say Denied Boarding can only happen before airplane took off? Where does it say airline has to provide you a parachute for mid-air IDB?
 
airbazar
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:18 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Again, the only reason this is national news is because of the criminal actions of the doctor leading to a conflict. But like most of these national "abuse of authority" scandals, the criminal actor is rarely blamed. Especially if a bloody nose is involved.

I completely fail to see where there was any criminal action on his part. Only a court can decide whether a crime was committed or not, last I checked. Until then you are presumed innocent. At the very least the police (or security) need probable cause to act. "We need you off the plane so four of our buddies can take your seat", doesn't seem like probable cause to me. UA's failure to properly handle travel for its employees and its failure to properly deal with it is the only problem I see here. I would have done exactly the same thing that the doctor did.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:20 pm

eal46859 wrote:
Three of the four apparently got up and left. And then likely a FA approached the him and asked him to leave. He refused. So the police or security agents came on board .. 3 big men (and not UA employees) and probably asked him again, he refused so they dragged him off.


According to co-passenger statements, your concocted theory is invalid.

I hope those who are defending UA on social media are just fanboys, not UA employees or PR organization. That will damage UA's even more.

Oscar's tweet and internal e-mail already did enough damage.
All posts are just opinions.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:25 pm

If you were paying into the U.S. system in the early-mid 2000s, this incident is another example of your tax dollars at work!

Thank God United was bailed out! :D
 
audian
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:25 pm

Before people forget this, the pressure should me mounted on DOT in framing/correcting the existing rules and make them more passenger friendly. Today its United and tomorrow it can be some other airline and one of us can be a victim.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:28 pm

UA's Friendly Skies replaced by - Not Enough Seating Prepare for a Beating


So glad I fly Alaska. I just don't think this would have happened in a similar manner.
Heia Norge!

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