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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:33 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Yes, UA shouldn't have let this get anywhere near this far, and while there's a lot of grey here, you also have to look at (and cannot deny) the black-and-white where he was, in fact, trespassing once UA asked him to leave and he refused.


At what point was it United's fault?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:34 pm

audian wrote:
Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.

I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.


https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/

:D
Last edited by TheF15Ace on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
socalgeo
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:34 pm

N212R wrote:
PA110 wrote:
What's painfully apparent is that most airlines (notably, United) have not yet learned to adapt to the realities of social media. Just like the leggings incident, the speed at which social media can amplify or distort needs to be factored into new customer service training. You can quote rules til the cows come home, but you'll still pay dearly in PR and, as shown today, by a significant hit to your stock price.


What's painfully apparent is the disproportional distorting ability of "social media" and those who control the who sees it, what prominence is it given, why it is given that prominence, when it is newsworthy and how long it is kept in the spotlight of "news". Case in point, this United story being given "headline" status on Google News, while the Delta meltdown (and subsequent ATL troubles) story mysteriously absent from same page. He who controls the media, controls the message.


It's not that complicated. I believe that generally, people have a very large capacity to recognize the difference between fair and unfair. And generally, people have a very low tolerance for douchebagerry. If the old man had truly been some sort of douchebag on the flight there wouldn't be this level of outrage. In some sense there would have been some fairness to him being removed.

However, in this case the douchebagerry is entirely on United Airlines. First for trying to steal his seat for one of their employees, second for calling in the goons to kick his ass, third for the shitty comment about "reaccomodation" by their douchebag CEO, and now by trying to assassinate his character. People won't tolerate this level of hyper douchebaggery. And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:35 pm

ALTF4 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Now the airline had been flying four crew to the place were their next flight leaves the next morning. Let us assume the airline has booked rooms, let us assume they were prepaid to be sure that the crew would get those rooms. What would the airline say if there was exhibition or conference in that town, no other rooms free and those rooms would have been given to a walk in, paying twice the rate of what the airline paid for those rooms. The hotel is prepared to refund the airline the prepayment, or offering the airline four rooms the next night. I assume the airline would have been ecstatic, having realised that the hotel has learned how to do proper business.


You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!

The above is easily sourced from the internet.

For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.


So you have been bumped from a prepaid room? Or have been in your room after you had paid for the night and were asked to pack your things again and move out? You would be astonished how easy it would be to drag said hotel into court and the question of fraud would be raised. I have booked and prepaid rooms in many of my travels and never been bumped from a prepaid room. But I have been bumped of flights I had paid to be on. And yes it has happened that a hotel as lost my booking, but never for a prepaid room.
The point is in regards to flights we do not talk about book and pay later. In every case a passenger gets bumped by an airline, the airline has already received the payment.
 
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:36 pm

One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:37 pm

I think what I have learned from this is that I need to remember to either record or livestream times where an airline employee asks to do something I find improper or wrong or incorrect.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:38 pm

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Yes, UA shouldn't have let this get anywhere near this far, and while there's a lot of grey here, you also have to look at (and cannot deny) the black-and-white where he was, in fact, trespassing once UA asked him to leave and he refused.


At what point was it United's fault?

Tugg

At the point of calling police and asking them to use force over no criminal action by the pax.
 
ap305
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:38 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
audian wrote:
Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.

I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.


https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/


good one from EK

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:42 pm

socalgeo wrote:
And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.

Well.... yes they do, once it gets to a nice douchebag-low price level.

Untied stock will recover from this, at some point once the management gets it straight and address' their failure. Then the stock will bounce right back because it is difficult to replace United in the market. I honestly expect something from the management either later today or tomorrow. It is one of the top trending stories and their response so far has just made it worse so the must address it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
socalgeo
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.

Well.... yes they do, once it gets to a nice douchebag-low price level.

Untied stock will recover from this, at some point once the management gets it straight and address' their failure. Then the stock will bounce right back because it is difficult to replace United in the market. I honestly expect something from the management either later today or tomorrow. It is one of the top trending stories and their response so far has just made it worse so the must address it.

Tugg

Fair enough. You are probably right. But if a gate agent doesn't feel that they have the ability to deal with this situation without having an old man get beat up by the cops then there is something rotten at United. If they don't show investors quickly that they recognize that they have a problem and show how they will fix it then investors will run away. Just my opinion.
Last edited by socalgeo on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wingman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:46 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
This fourth customer, regrettably, chose to make a stand against the commands of law enforcement.

And, well...

Image


I understand where you're coming technically and legally, but I'll say the same thing I have throughout the thread. Is it this passenger that chose poorly for his bloody nose and the pending $1-$2M awaiting wire transfer into his Schwab account, or is it United with $400M off their stock value wiped out today and what looks to be their biggest PR disaster in a decade. I'd argue the latter.

One year from now you could flip that little meme to "He Chose Wisely".
 
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GCT64
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:48 pm

socalgeo wrote:
It's not that complicated. I believe that generally, people have a very large capacity to recognize the difference between fair and unfair. And generally, people have a very low tolerance for douchebagerry. If the old man had truly been some sort of douchebag on the flight there wouldn't be this level of outrage. In some sense there would have been some fairness to him being removed.

However, in this case the douchebagerry is entirely on United Airlines. First for trying to steal his seat for one of their employees, second for calling in the goons to kick his ass, third for the shitty comment about "reaccomodation" by their douchebag CEO, and now by trying to assassinate his character. People won't tolerate this level of hyper douchebaggery. And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.


I agree but it amazes me how many of the contributors to a.net can't see this. Can someone please explain this? the difference here between right & wrong / fair & unfair seems pretty clear to me.
As someone much earlier wrote, the reason the public are offended is because they don't want it to happen to them (or their family or friends) and realise it could easily have been them and not poor Dr. Dao in that seat (who, not only was physically dragged through the aisle, is now having every past little piece of his life emotionally dragged through the media).

"Douchebaggery" is a good word to describe this.
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:48 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
audian wrote:
Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.

I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.


https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/

:D


Genius! A+ to Emirates PR team :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by AerolineasAR343 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Leslieville
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:50 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Several things they didn't actually overbook a flight, they removed a man by force to make room for staff. Also this wasn't United it was Republic Airlines that code-shares with United wearing their livery. They have different rules than UA. not sure why everybody dogging on UA.
the bottom line, this TRULY NOT a airline issue.

as someone mentioned he was asked to leave, he didn't, security was called.

The abuse that followed was on security not the airline.

You may wonder, why getting staff on a plane is so important. These things are booked months in advance, however due to delays and flight cancellations and weather issues in other cities sometimes staff is moved to plane at the last minute so they can get to their destination on time to fly their plane.

why would they do that? so that they don't have to cancel their flight or delay their flight causing passenger to miss their connections, it literally a butterfly effect.


The rules in the past have always been the last one on the plane is the first one off the plane. However it seems like everybody was boarded. since this was a codeshare flight, i'm sure the gate agent didn't have access to the information which means she/he probably had closed out the flight.

and couldn't use the normal rules, until she/he called corporate and got them open again, there was no time so they did the random drawing.
i like how everybody wants to blame the airline, the gate agent, and everybody else but those who were responsible. give me a break

read your right of carriage contract. airlines have the right to break the contract/your ticket at any time as long as they offer your compensation and get you on the next available flight to your destination. which the airlines was trying to do.

Don't be surprised if this Dr. isn't charged. refusing to leave a plane when asked and being forcibly removed is a serious offense.


I don't know a thing about you, such as whether you work for an airline or are a road warrior, but somewhere, somehow, you seem to have been captured by the perspective of airline management and fail to see that the points you noted are irrelevant or mindbogglingly opaque to the vast majority of the traveling public. They don't know or care that some flights on airlines are operated by regional airlines DBA some variation on the name of the main airline. They don't know or care about the Byzantine rules of carriage or the compensation matrices that are going to attempt to compensate them for the inconvenience, insult, and embarrassment of being ejected from a plane through no fault of their own because it is in the airline's best interest to do so. They buy a ticket with airline X and as far as they are concerned, airline X is responsible for any subcontracting or partnerships that airline X chooses to use to fulfill the purchase of service.

Blaming the victim is precisely what you have done and precisely what the CEO of United did. The guy freaked out and the police were brutal but those all resulted from the airline's poor choices. It is the fault of United that this happened. Full stop.

Edited for minor improvements to clarity and a typo. Make that two typos.
Last edited by Leslieville on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Pavlakakos
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:51 pm

I Lol'd hard at the latest post in Emirates FB page. And then i imagine that if -in a fantasy scenario- the Gulf carriers were allowed fly US continental flights, the American carriers would probably go bankrupt. :)
 
jbpdx
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:55 pm

How long will United operate those 747s from SFO half full before they cut back?
^
 
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enilria
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:55 pm

United's new strategy, it would appear, is to tell Twitter to delete negative tweets...unless Twitter just decided to it on their own???

https://thenextweb.com/twitter/2017/04/ ... w_opO48oHI
 
akelley728
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:55 pm

ALTF4 wrote:
You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!

The above is easily sourced from the internet.

For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.


You are correct with this perk. I'm a Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite. Depending on who you ask, it's called 'Platinum Override' or 'Platinum 48 Hour Guarantee'. Except for a few blackout dates, a Platinum member can bump another guest if the property is 'sold old'. I personally have never had the opportunity to use this perk where someone was kicked out of room (and to be honest with you I wouldn't feel comfortable using it because that would mean someone else with a paid reservation gets kicked to the curb.). As you alluded it, it seems like properties keep a couple of rooms in reserve 'just in case' a Platinum elite makes a last-minute reservation.
 
bralo20
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:59 pm

Royal Jordanian was almost a day quicker with a response to United's "incident":
https://www.facebook.com/RoyalJordanian ... =1&theater

:)
 
32andBelow
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:00 pm

akelley728 wrote:
ALTF4 wrote:
You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!

The above is easily sourced from the internet.

For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.


You are correct with this perk. I'm a Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite. Depending on who you ask, it's called 'Platinum Override' or 'Platinum 48 Hour Guarantee'. Except for a few blackout dates, a Platinum member can bump another guest if the property is 'sold old'. I personally have never had the opportunity to use this perk where someone was kicked out of room (and to be honest with you I wouldn't feel comfortable using it because that would mean someone else with a paid reservation gets kicked to the curb.). As you alluded it, it seems like properties keep a couple of rooms in reserve 'just in case' a Platinum elite makes a last-minute reservation.

It's just like an airline. if they are kicked to the curb they are compensated about put at a comparable or nice property.
 
Pavlakakos
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:02 pm

bralo20 wrote:
Royal Jordanian was almost a day quicker with a response to United's "incident":
https://www.facebook.com/RoyalJordanian ... =1&theater

:)


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. OMG. :lol: :D :lol:
 
ALTF4
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:02 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
So you have been bumped from a prepaid room? Or have been in your room after you had paid for the night and were asked to pack your things again and move out? You would be astonished how easy it would be to drag said hotel into court and the question of fraud would be raised. I have booked and prepaid rooms in many of my travels and never been bumped from a prepaid room. But I have been bumped of flights I had paid to be on. And yes it has happened that a hotel as lost my booking, but never for a prepaid room.
The point is in regards to flights we do not talk about book and pay later. In every case a passenger gets bumped by an airline, the airline has already received the payment.


1) I never claimed to have been personally affected by any of this. By your standards that you set in the first two sentences, you shouldn't be discussing this, unless you yourself were dragged out of a plane.
2) Why would I be astonished, as a known fact, how easy it would be to take the hotel to court? You could say I might be astonished, but telling me I absolutely would be... well, that's a bit presumptuous on your part!
3) While you may not pay the full amount before arrival, hotels will typically bill you for the first night if you no-show. Most reservations require a credit card up front. While not identical to paying a ticket up front, it's similar - if the guest no-shows, the room is billed regardless.
4) http://bfy.tw/BAY7 - plenty of examples of people being bumped from pre-paid rooms. For example http://www.thedp.com/article/2016/05/sh ... on-weekend
5) Playing by the scenario you put together for the airline pilots showing up at the hotel.



Edit: typo
Last edited by ALTF4 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
mantistobogn
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:04 pm

Seems as though United has now resorted to smearing passengers in order to discredit them.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/11/david-dao-doctor-dragged-off-united-flight-was-con/
 
kavok
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:04 pm

akelley728 wrote:
ALTF4 wrote:
You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!

The above is easily sourced from the internet.

For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.


You are correct with this perk. I'm a Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite. Depending on who you ask, it's called 'Platinum Override' or 'Platinum 48 Hour Guarantee'. Except for a few blackout dates, a Platinum member can bump another guest if the property is 'sold old'. I personally have never had the opportunity to use this perk where someone was kicked out of room (and to be honest with you I wouldn't feel comfortable using it because that would mean someone else with a paid reservation gets kicked to the curb.). As you alluded it, it seems like properties keep a couple of rooms in reserve 'just in case' a Platinum elite makes a last-minute reservation.


The hotel analogy only works if you compare it to IDB at the gate. In this case he was already in his seat, which makes it all the more wrong.

Otherwise, the hotel analogy should be that a hotel guest who had already checked into their room was yanked out of bed, had their head banged against a dresser, and dragged out of the room so that some hotel employee could have their room.
Last edited by kavok on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:04 pm

AerolineasAR343 wrote:
One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.


UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.

The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.

I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims. Previously banned behavior is a norm now, perhaps even a sign of status. Especially if a member of the intelligentsia shouts other people down, such as experts. In this way, vaccination probably causes autism. And so on. That's the world United needs to learn how to deal with.
Last edited by Flighty on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:06 pm

32andBelow wrote:
It's just like an airline. if they are kicked to the curb they are compensated about put at a comparable or nice property.

The key difference is time. Fortunately for hotels they can immediately accommodate the person (normally, in all but the most extreme cases). Airlines don't have this, unfortunately for them the person has a time element which can often be accommodated but sometimes can't be. And you can't really replace time.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 pm

A quick thing to those who say that the doctor was acting unlafwully: If you think that's true, if you think the doctor was trespassing and being a criminal, why oh why didn't the police arrest him? Why didn't they pressed charges of resisting arrest and so on? Why didn't UA pressed charges? Why did the doctor even came back to the plane if he was being a criminal? If it's such a clear-cut situation, all these charges would be pretty obvious, no?
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 pm

akelley728 wrote:
ALTF4 wrote:
.

I am Spire Elite with IHG and they have the same benefit...but there's no way in hell I would EVER utilize that perk and risk someone else losing out on a room they thought they had a confirmation for. There are always plenty of other options...same with the airlines.
 
ALTF4
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 pm

kavok wrote:

The hotel analogy only works if you compare it to IDB at the gate. In this case he was already in his seat, which makes it all the more wrong.

Otherwise, the hotel analogy should be that a hotel guest who had already checked into their room was yanked out of bed, had their head banged against a dresser, and dragged out of the room so that some hotel employee could have their room.


As I said to mjoelnir, I'm playing by the scenario he set in his initial reply.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
kavok
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 pm

Flighty wrote:
AerolineasAR343 wrote:
One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.


UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.

The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.

I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims. Previously banned behavior is a norm now, perhaps even a sign of status. Especially if a member of the intelligentsia shouts other people down, such as experts. In this way, vaccination probably causes autism. And so on. That's the world United needs to learn how to deal with.


Rosa Parks also peacefully refused to give up her seat when she legally had to. It bet you think it is wrong all those civil rights activists rallied around her when she was breaking the law too.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:09 pm

Emirates did not take kindly to Munoz saying they were not a real airline

https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/

Emirates: Fly the friendly skies...this time for real

:lol: :lol:
 
transswede
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:09 pm

Flighty wrote:
AerolineasAR343 wrote:
One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.


UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.

The volunteer phase was only over because United decided it was over.

Flighty wrote:
The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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Keith2004
Posts: 302
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:11 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
audian wrote:
Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.

I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.


https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/

:D


This thread moves so fast, as I was posting I see this :lol: hilarious
 
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AerolineasAR343
Posts: 79
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:11 pm

kavok wrote:
Flighty wrote:
AerolineasAR343 wrote:
One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.


UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.

The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.

I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims. Previously banned behavior is a norm now, perhaps even a sign of status. Especially if a member of the intelligentsia shouts other people down, such as experts. In this way, vaccination probably causes autism. And so on. That's the world United needs to learn how to deal with.


Rosa Parks also peacefully refused to give up her seat when she legally had to. It bet you think it is wrong all those civil rights activists rallied around her when she was breaking the law too.


Of course he thinks it was wrong. The blacks got all uppity thanks to those activists, and we can't have that! (sarcasm, in case anyone is thick enough)
 
N212R
Posts: 334
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:12 pm

starrion wrote:
By the way, UAL market cap is down $890,000,000 today. So maybe throwing an extra $1k of compensation to get that extra seat would have been a good idea.


A perfect example of the very dangerous level we have allowed "crowd" hysteria and irrationality to overtake our popular and now financial lives....scary indeed.
 
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AerolineasAR343
Posts: 79
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:14 pm

N212R wrote:
starrion wrote:
By the way, UAL market cap is down $890,000,000 today. So maybe throwing an extra $1k of compensation to get that extra seat would have been a good idea.


A perfect example of the very dangerous level we have allowed "crowd" hysteria and irrationality to overtake our popular and now financial lives....scary indeed.


What, a company suffering the consequences of their awful, terrible, very bad actions? Real scary that :roll: :roll:
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11088
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:15 pm

mantistobogn wrote:
Seems as though United has now resorted to smearing passengers in order to discredit them.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/11/david-dao-doctor-dragged-off-united-flight-was-con/


Wow, this is just getting more and more expensive for United.... How many patients are going to want to be seen by this man now? United may have destroyed his future income.

Flighty wrote:
The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.

Oscar?!? Is that you? :lol:

Flighty wrote:
I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims.

United "lost this" because they handled it badly and did the wrong thing (sure, it might have been OK policy and industry standard wise but that does not make something right). Also who are the "privileged people" you speak of? The ones that airlines won't bump because they paid more or have more status? I say, if you are going to actually IDB people in situations like this, it must be completely random (or why not start with DB'ing those that paid the most/have to most mileage? That should reach the cost point very quickly where the practice is determined to be a bad idea....)

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
VC10er
Posts: 4283
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:16 pm

UAL777UK wrote:
VC10er wrote:

brand damage.


Good time to do that livery update? :scratchchin:

If any man would know you would.


Thanks for thinking of me, very flattered. NO WAY! If UA launched a new livery within the next 30 days, it would be a PR disaster. Consumers are not that stupid, they would see it for what it would be: a smoke screen.

I am shocked that Oscar has not come back ON AIR (hat in hand) and repair this damage now. He has the charm, he could do it. My question is: where is he and why isn't he acting?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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United787
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:19 pm

socalgeo wrote:
It's not that complicated. I believe that generally, people have a very large capacity to recognize the difference between fair and unfair. And generally, people have a very low tolerance for douchebagerry. If the old man had truly been some sort of douchebag on the flight there wouldn't be this level of outrage. In some sense there would have been some fairness to him being removed.

However, in this case the douchebagerry is entirely on United Airlines. First for trying to steal his seat for one of their employees, second for calling in the goons to kick his ass, third for the shitty comment about "reaccomodation" by their douchebag CEO, and now by trying to assassinate his character. People won't tolerate this level of hyper douchebaggery. And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.


And you my good friend, win not only this thread but also the internet for the day! I could not have summed it up better myself!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8596
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Flighty wrote:
The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.


Depends on whether United has the legal right to ask him to leave. If your initial complaint is based on a false premise, you have no case even with all entrapment techniques. This is a civil matter.

If you want to bring his past, what about DOJ,Port Authority investigation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
N212R
Posts: 334
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:27 pm

bob75013 wrote:
The DL weather related meltdown did make the news, but it's not BIG news because weather related meltdowns happen dozens of times a year. I recall DL, AA UA and WN all having at least one in the last year.

When's the last time you saw an (innocent) passenger dragged off a plane parked at a gate? The answer to that question tells you why that is BIG news.


You appreciation of "scale" is sorely distorted. The Delta story was NOT one of a "dozen times a year" weather meltdown. It was much more substantial and indicative of a systemic problem.

Passengers are taken off of gated planes on a very regular basis. The circumstances vary but it is only BIG news to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer.
 
TransGlobalGold
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:40 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:27 pm

UA is still getting murdered in the media, both in the U.S. and abroad. I expect they will suffer some short term loss of business. They will settle with the passenger for a helluva lot more than the $800 voucher would have cost them. However, people have short memories, and limited choices on who to fly. This will be forgotten at some point, until it happens again on UA or another carrier, but it will indeed happen.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:29 pm

Just about every news outlet and the flying public are calling UA a disgrace, save for a few United fanboys.

Here is one clip just posted by CNN, very respected news outlet. Oscar Muniz must go
.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/news/un ... index.html

United Airlines shows how to make a PR crisis a total disaster.

Last month, United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz was named U.S. Communicator of the Year by the magazine PRWeek.
Now he's being raked over the coals for his response to a violent passenger incident on a United Airlines flight.
 
ozark1
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:34 pm

My blood pressure can't handle reading all 19 pages of this thread, so if these comments have been stated already, i apologize.
1) Were the UA employees who were boarded a flight crew that needed to get to SDF to cover a flight? I can only imagine that this was the case and I feel very bad for them. What other reason would there be? They had to have been must-riders in order to keep a flight in SDF from being cancelled.
2) This was Republic Airlines.
3) Bethune made a ludicrous comment under the circumstances.
4) "I will never fly United again". Yeah right. It's all about the fare and the frequent flier miles. In a month this will be forgotten when people are booking flights
5) I feel really bad for all the great airline employees who will be mistreated because of this.
 
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AerolineasAR343
Posts: 79
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:38 pm

N212R wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The DL weather related meltdown did make the news, but it's not BIG news because weather related meltdowns happen dozens of times a year. I recall DL, AA UA and WN all having at least one in the last year.

When's the last time you saw an (innocent) passenger dragged off a plane parked at a gate? The answer to that question tells you why that is BIG news.


You appreciation of "scale" is sorely distorted. The Delta story was NOT one of a "dozen times a year" weather meltdown. It was much more substantial and indicative of a systemic problem.

Passengers are taken off of gated planes on a very regular basis. The circumstances vary but it is only BIG news to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer.


You and so many UA fanboys can bury your heads in the ground and keep repeating to yourself "this is nothing big, this is nothing big, this will blow over" but the thruth is that this is a PR disaster of epic proportions. Everyone everywhere is talking about it. UA stock is down. Every big and small news outlet is carrying this story as front page. Every person in social media is at least aware of how UA treated a paying customer. Saying that this is only big "to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer" is laughable and demonstrates that you're so out of touch with reality as the CEO of the company.

Covering your ears and sutting your eyes screaming "THIS IS NOTHING" will not make this disaster go away.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:41 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Last month, United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz was named U.S. Communicator of the Year by the magazine PRWeek.
Now he's being raked over the coals for his response to a violent passenger incident on a United Airlines flight.


And PRWeek is now saying they wouldn't choose him if they would do it this week:

http://www.prweek.com/article/1430341/u ... IG24FHc.99

Let’s be clear, no one at PRWeek is condoning the incident on Flight 3411 and United’s communications response—it is unacceptable.

In time, the episode and subsequent response will be quoted in textbooks as an example of how not to respond in a crisis. But, for now, our thoughts are principally with the victim in this case, who was clearly—and understandably—extremely shaken up by his forcible removal from the plane.
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:41 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
UA is still getting murdered in the media, both in the U.S. and abroad. I expect they will suffer some short term loss of business. They will settle with the passenger for a helluva lot more than the $800 voucher would have cost them. However, people have short memories, and limited choices on who to fly. This will be forgotten at some point, until it happens again on UA or another carrier, but it will indeed happen.


people may have short memories but I'll guarantee that when they google United Airlines this incident will be on the first page, and for some time to come.

and it'll get worse from here for UA..now that News Ltd has weighed in with the passengers past.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-up ... a0166e32a1
 
transswede
Posts: 1008
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:41 pm

N212R wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Passengers are taken off of gated planes on a very regular basis. The circumstances vary but it is only BIG news to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer.


The UA defenders are out in force, I see. Did you forget to cast doubt on the Drs past history? (missed a talking point?)
 
VC10er
Posts: 4283
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:42 pm

I am a United fanboy and I am in tears over how they are handling this. My head isn't buried in the sand, it's banging against a wall.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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United787
Posts: 2943
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:43 pm

For those of you that think that is a one off incident that will be forgotten as soon as the next news cycle hits are wrong IMHO. Not only is one of the most serious and appalling mistakes made by an airline, their reaction to it is even more appalling and disgusting. Everyone is talking about this and it will greatly affect the United brand for years to come. I understand that they shouldn't be accepting immediate blame but to completely lie and try to distort the events in their favor is unbelievable. All they need to say is that we take this situation very seriously and are performing a complete internal investigation... It appears as though they are only learning information from their own staff (who are covering their asses) and not getting information from the victim or other passengers, or even watching the videos themselves. I understand he really wants to improve employee moral but not at the expense of your paying clients. I am a huge United fan and I am in utter shock at what is unfolding. Everything positive Mr. Munoz has done in the past 2 years has been undone in 24 hours, he needs to fix this now or show himself to the door, I have lost complete confidence in his ability to lead this company. WTF is going on over there on Wacker Drive.

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