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EA CO AS wrote:Yes, UA shouldn't have let this get anywhere near this far, and while there's a lot of grey here, you also have to look at (and cannot deny) the black-and-white where he was, in fact, trespassing once UA asked him to leave and he refused.
audian wrote:Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.
I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.
N212R wrote:PA110 wrote:What's painfully apparent is that most airlines (notably, United) have not yet learned to adapt to the realities of social media. Just like the leggings incident, the speed at which social media can amplify or distort needs to be factored into new customer service training. You can quote rules til the cows come home, but you'll still pay dearly in PR and, as shown today, by a significant hit to your stock price.
What's painfully apparent is the disproportional distorting ability of "social media" and those who control the who sees it, what prominence is it given, why it is given that prominence, when it is newsworthy and how long it is kept in the spotlight of "news". Case in point, this United story being given "headline" status on Google News, while the Delta meltdown (and subsequent ATL troubles) story mysteriously absent from same page. He who controls the media, controls the message.
ALTF4 wrote:mjoelnir wrote:Now the airline had been flying four crew to the place were their next flight leaves the next morning. Let us assume the airline has booked rooms, let us assume they were prepaid to be sure that the crew would get those rooms. What would the airline say if there was exhibition or conference in that town, no other rooms free and those rooms would have been given to a walk in, paying twice the rate of what the airline paid for those rooms. The hotel is prepared to refund the airline the prepayment, or offering the airline four rooms the next night. I assume the airline would have been ecstatic, having realised that the hotel has learned how to do proper business.
You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!
The above is easily sourced from the internet.
For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.
Tugger wrote:EA CO AS wrote:Yes, UA shouldn't have let this get anywhere near this far, and while there's a lot of grey here, you also have to look at (and cannot deny) the black-and-white where he was, in fact, trespassing once UA asked him to leave and he refused.
At what point was it United's fault?
Tugg
TheF15Ace wrote:audian wrote:Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.
I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.
https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/
socalgeo wrote:And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.
Tugger wrote:socalgeo wrote:And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.
Well.... yes they do, once it gets to a nice douchebag-low price level.
Untied stock will recover from this, at some point once the management gets it straight and address' their failure. Then the stock will bounce right back because it is difficult to replace United in the market. I honestly expect something from the management either later today or tomorrow. It is one of the top trending stories and their response so far has just made it worse so the must address it.
Tugg
EA CO AS wrote:This fourth customer, regrettably, chose to make a stand against the commands of law enforcement.
And, well...
socalgeo wrote:It's not that complicated. I believe that generally, people have a very large capacity to recognize the difference between fair and unfair. And generally, people have a very low tolerance for douchebagerry. If the old man had truly been some sort of douchebag on the flight there wouldn't be this level of outrage. In some sense there would have been some fairness to him being removed.
However, in this case the douchebagerry is entirely on United Airlines. First for trying to steal his seat for one of their employees, second for calling in the goons to kick his ass, third for the shitty comment about "reaccomodation" by their douchebag CEO, and now by trying to assassinate his character. People won't tolerate this level of hyper douchebaggery. And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.
TheF15Ace wrote:audian wrote:Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.
I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.
https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/
DLFREEBIRD wrote:Several things they didn't actually overbook a flight, they removed a man by force to make room for staff. Also this wasn't United it was Republic Airlines that code-shares with United wearing their livery. They have different rules than UA. not sure why everybody dogging on UA.
the bottom line, this TRULY NOT a airline issue.
as someone mentioned he was asked to leave, he didn't, security was called.
The abuse that followed was on security not the airline.
You may wonder, why getting staff on a plane is so important. These things are booked months in advance, however due to delays and flight cancellations and weather issues in other cities sometimes staff is moved to plane at the last minute so they can get to their destination on time to fly their plane.
why would they do that? so that they don't have to cancel their flight or delay their flight causing passenger to miss their connections, it literally a butterfly effect.
The rules in the past have always been the last one on the plane is the first one off the plane. However it seems like everybody was boarded. since this was a codeshare flight, i'm sure the gate agent didn't have access to the information which means she/he probably had closed out the flight.
and couldn't use the normal rules, until she/he called corporate and got them open again, there was no time so they did the random drawing.
i like how everybody wants to blame the airline, the gate agent, and everybody else but those who were responsible. give me a break
read your right of carriage contract. airlines have the right to break the contract/your ticket at any time as long as they offer your compensation and get you on the next available flight to your destination. which the airlines was trying to do.
Don't be surprised if this Dr. isn't charged. refusing to leave a plane when asked and being forcibly removed is a serious offense.
ALTF4 wrote:You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!
The above is easily sourced from the internet.
For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.
akelley728 wrote:ALTF4 wrote:You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!
The above is easily sourced from the internet.
For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.
You are correct with this perk. I'm a Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite. Depending on who you ask, it's called 'Platinum Override' or 'Platinum 48 Hour Guarantee'. Except for a few blackout dates, a Platinum member can bump another guest if the property is 'sold old'. I personally have never had the opportunity to use this perk where someone was kicked out of room (and to be honest with you I wouldn't feel comfortable using it because that would mean someone else with a paid reservation gets kicked to the curb.). As you alluded it, it seems like properties keep a couple of rooms in reserve 'just in case' a Platinum elite makes a last-minute reservation.
bralo20 wrote:Royal Jordanian was almost a day quicker with a response to United's "incident":
https://www.facebook.com/RoyalJordanian ... =1&theater
mjoelnir wrote:So you have been bumped from a prepaid room? Or have been in your room after you had paid for the night and were asked to pack your things again and move out? You would be astonished how easy it would be to drag said hotel into court and the question of fraud would be raised. I have booked and prepaid rooms in many of my travels and never been bumped from a prepaid room. But I have been bumped of flights I had paid to be on. And yes it has happened that a hotel as lost my booking, but never for a prepaid room.
The point is in regards to flights we do not talk about book and pay later. In every case a passenger gets bumped by an airline, the airline has already received the payment.
akelley728 wrote:ALTF4 wrote:You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!
The above is easily sourced from the internet.
For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.
You are correct with this perk. I'm a Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite. Depending on who you ask, it's called 'Platinum Override' or 'Platinum 48 Hour Guarantee'. Except for a few blackout dates, a Platinum member can bump another guest if the property is 'sold old'. I personally have never had the opportunity to use this perk where someone was kicked out of room (and to be honest with you I wouldn't feel comfortable using it because that would mean someone else with a paid reservation gets kicked to the curb.). As you alluded it, it seems like properties keep a couple of rooms in reserve 'just in case' a Platinum elite makes a last-minute reservation.
AerolineasAR343 wrote:One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.
32andBelow wrote:It's just like an airline. if they are kicked to the curb they are compensated about put at a comparable or nice property.
akelley728 wrote:ALTF4 wrote:.
kavok wrote:
The hotel analogy only works if you compare it to IDB at the gate. In this case he was already in his seat, which makes it all the more wrong.
Otherwise, the hotel analogy should be that a hotel guest who had already checked into their room was yanked out of bed, had their head banged against a dresser, and dragged out of the room so that some hotel employee could have their room.
Flighty wrote:AerolineasAR343 wrote:One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.
UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.
The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.
I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims. Previously banned behavior is a norm now, perhaps even a sign of status. Especially if a member of the intelligentsia shouts other people down, such as experts. In this way, vaccination probably causes autism. And so on. That's the world United needs to learn how to deal with.
Flighty wrote:AerolineasAR343 wrote:One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.
UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.
Flighty wrote:The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.
TheF15Ace wrote:audian wrote:Emirates in not wasting time and opportunity.
I could not post the link. But their facebook page has an interesting update.
https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/video ... 045500343/
hilarious kavok wrote:Flighty wrote:AerolineasAR343 wrote:One thing I still don't get is this: Why did it had to be THAT seat? When it was obvious that the doctor wasn't having it, why didn't the agent try to find another passenger more willing (even though nobody took the offer to volunteer in the first place) and be done? The doctor said he had patients in the morning to care to, ok, we'll find another seat. Why was the agent so hell-bent on getting THAT seat that it was worth all this scandal? Such lack of judgement.
UGH I am trying to stay away but I can't. The volunteer phase had passed. This passenger was deboarded according to a pre-agreed prioritization. This was a mandatory process, not a negotiation. That is the central, key understanding here.
The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.
I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims. Previously banned behavior is a norm now, perhaps even a sign of status. Especially if a member of the intelligentsia shouts other people down, such as experts. In this way, vaccination probably causes autism. And so on. That's the world United needs to learn how to deal with.
Rosa Parks also peacefully refused to give up her seat when she legally had to. It bet you think it is wrong all those civil rights activists rallied around her when she was breaking the law too.
starrion wrote:By the way, UAL market cap is down $890,000,000 today. So maybe throwing an extra $1k of compensation to get that extra seat would have been a good idea.
N212R wrote:starrion wrote:By the way, UAL market cap is down $890,000,000 today. So maybe throwing an extra $1k of compensation to get that extra seat would have been a good idea.
A perfect example of the very dangerous level we have allowed "crowd" hysteria and irrationality to overtake our popular and now financial lives....scary indeed.
mantistobogn wrote:Seems as though United has now resorted to smearing passengers in order to discredit them.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/11/david-dao-doctor-dragged-off-united-flight-was-con/
Flighty wrote:The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.
Flighty wrote:I think United has lost this fight. What can we learn here is that policy depends on perception and status. Tweet gangs and woke bros now constantly agitate to take over political and business structures. Privileged people are now able to create new facts by posing as victims.
UAL777UK wrote:VC10er wrote:
brand damage.
Good time to do that livery update?
If any man would know you would.
socalgeo wrote:It's not that complicated. I believe that generally, people have a very large capacity to recognize the difference between fair and unfair. And generally, people have a very low tolerance for douchebagerry. If the old man had truly been some sort of douchebag on the flight there wouldn't be this level of outrage. In some sense there would have been some fairness to him being removed.
However, in this case the douchebagerry is entirely on United Airlines. First for trying to steal his seat for one of their employees, second for calling in the goons to kick his ass, third for the shitty comment about "reaccomodation" by their douchebag CEO, and now by trying to assassinate his character. People won't tolerate this level of hyper douchebaggery. And no one wants to own a douchebag stock.
Flighty wrote:The passenger had trouble getting out because of his behavioral problem, which was unacceptable, and should ban him from air travel in the future. He committed a number of crimes here, disorderly conduct, trespassing, trespassing again. That's a salient fact here, he is a criminal with a substantial criminal record. By letting him off the hook because of his high class status, United made a critical error. Now he is seen as an innocent doctor beaten by United. This is a sociopathic technique used by him.
bob75013 wrote:The DL weather related meltdown did make the news, but it's not BIG news because weather related meltdowns happen dozens of times a year. I recall DL, AA UA and WN all having at least one in the last year.
When's the last time you saw an (innocent) passenger dragged off a plane parked at a gate? The answer to that question tells you why that is BIG news.
N212R wrote:bob75013 wrote:The DL weather related meltdown did make the news, but it's not BIG news because weather related meltdowns happen dozens of times a year. I recall DL, AA UA and WN all having at least one in the last year.
When's the last time you saw an (innocent) passenger dragged off a plane parked at a gate? The answer to that question tells you why that is BIG news.
You appreciation of "scale" is sorely distorted. The Delta story was NOT one of a "dozen times a year" weather meltdown. It was much more substantial and indicative of a systemic problem.
Passengers are taken off of gated planes on a very regular basis. The circumstances vary but it is only BIG news to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer.
jumbojet wrote:Last month, United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz was named U.S. Communicator of the Year by the magazine PRWeek.
Now he's being raked over the coals for his response to a violent passenger incident on a United Airlines flight.
Let’s be clear, no one at PRWeek is condoning the incident on Flight 3411 and United’s communications response—it is unacceptable.
In time, the episode and subsequent response will be quoted in textbooks as an example of how not to respond in a crisis. But, for now, our thoughts are principally with the victim in this case, who was clearly—and understandably—extremely shaken up by his forcible removal from the plane.
TransGlobalGold wrote:UA is still getting murdered in the media, both in the U.S. and abroad. I expect they will suffer some short term loss of business. They will settle with the passenger for a helluva lot more than the $800 voucher would have cost them. However, people have short memories, and limited choices on who to fly. This will be forgotten at some point, until it happens again on UA or another carrier, but it will indeed happen.
N212R wrote:bob75013 wrote:Passengers are taken off of gated planes on a very regular basis. The circumstances vary but it is only BIG news to those with a United axe to grind, ambulance chasers or readers of National Enquirer.
