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EA CO AS
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:46 am

Andy33 wrote:
Will we ever know what the gate agents were empowered to offer under company rules?


Hopefully, that becomes clearer when Oscar reports back on 4/30 about his findings. I would hope that if they're not currently empowered to make things right by the customer and find a win/win outcome, that this situation results in each UA employee getting that empowerment from the top down.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:50 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I will repeat: $1,350 is NOT the maximum.


It's the maximum they're required to pay under the law if they involuntarily bump someone, which is why they probably figured, "Well if we're going to end up paying that anyway, we might as well just bump people instead of continuing to seek volunteers by offering MORE than that amount."

And I think you know that.

Now again, if it's my company, I'm sweetening the deal in hopes of getting a happy volunteer instead of a disgruntled, but legally made-whole, IDB customer.

Yup, I do. But I am glad to see that you agree it is not the wise thing to stick to.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
jbpdx
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:52 am

Lawrence Tribe tweeted this:

"So United wasn't merely crazy: it had no legal legs to stand on from the very start! Good going, United. You belong on the No-Fly list.

@ProfBanzhaf explains why United’s demand that Dr. Dao disembark was unlawful; hence, Dao didn’t have to comply"

United Airlines Cites Wrong Rule
For Illegally De-Boarding Passenger


http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united- ... passenger/
^
 
socalgeo
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:54 am

EA CO AS wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
1. I think his point about the compensation - poor as it may have been - was that once they got to $1350, they were at the level where they could just end the process and go straight to IDB since $1350 is the max cash payout for IDB passengers. IOW, I think he's implying that it was a waste of time and money to keep "asking" when they were at the threshold where it was a wash to just "tell". Again, not defending it.

2. He's saying that UA was going to take a loss on this because they were giving back compensation to these passengers and replacing them with zero revenue. By not doing a "the sky's the limit" bidding process with the passengers, they minimized these losses. This wasn't about booting people off and replacing them with higher yielding passengers. Granted, it would have cost them a fortune in the morning taking the delay out of SDF if this crew wasn't there.

Anyhow, I liked the balanced approach of it but disagreed with aspects as well. I think he missed some opportunities for UA to avoid or temper the problems.


FINALLY, someone gets it! I was beginning to wonder why everyone was only relying on emotion when looking at this situation instead of balancing it with logic and common sense. It's not like UA started out their operation that day looking to screw over customers, let alone beat them bloody!

They sure ended the day beating one bloody.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:59 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I will repeat: $1,350 is NOT the maximum.


It's the maximum they're required to pay under the law if they involuntarily bump someone, which is why they probably figured, "Well if we're going to end up paying that anyway, we might as well just bump people instead of continuing to seek volunteers by offering MORE than that amount."

And I think you know that.

Now again, if it's my company, I'm sweetening the deal in hopes of getting a happy volunteer instead of a disgruntled, but legally made-whole, IDB customer.


I am mostly wondering about the rather bad deal that was offered. As I understand it, it is just a 5 hour drive, so why not offer 500$ in cash + a nice rental car. At least here in Europe you most often find people willing to take a train ticket / rental car + cash, especially if it a drive of less than 7 hours and they do still arrive at the destination earlier than when waiting for the next flight.
 
transswede
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:05 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I will repeat: $1,350 is NOT the maximum.


It's the maximum they're required to pay under the law if they involuntarily bump someone, which is why they probably figured, "Well if we're going to end up paying that anyway, we might as well just bump people instead of continuing to seek volunteers by offering MORE than that amount."


But they never even offered *that* amount.That is the most shocking aspect of this whole situation, IMO.
 
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zckls04
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:06 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
zckls04 wrote:
Yes, but it ISN'T the headline-making part of this fiasco. What's fuelling outrage is United's actions, not the PD's.


No video = no reaction. The PR is entertaining but ultimately the outrage is over the treatment of this guy.


Every story is focusing on what United should have done differently to avoid this situation occurring, not on the Chicago cops.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:15 am

In the end one has to see separate parts of the incident.

1. UA refusing of service to the customer
2. customer refusing to follow the orders of law enforcement

In the end the customer is the person most to blame for what happened.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:16 am

zckls04 wrote:
Every story is focusing on what United should have done differently to avoid this situation occurring, not on the Chicago cops.


Would you agree that's everyone taking their collective eyes off the ball, then? Had the customer complied, albeit grudgingly, he might never fly UA again, but this wouldn't have made international news because no one would have laid a finger on him.

The news story is the beating he received, not at the hands of United, but at the hands of the Chicago police.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
blrsea
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:19 am

seahawk wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I will repeat: $1,350 is NOT the maximum.


It's the maximum they're required to pay under the law if they involuntarily bump someone, which is why they probably figured, "Well if we're going to end up paying that anyway, we might as well just bump people instead of continuing to seek volunteers by offering MORE than that amount."

And I think you know that.

Now again, if it's my company, I'm sweetening the deal in hopes of getting a happy volunteer instead of a disgruntled, but legally made-whole, IDB customer.


I am mostly wondering about the rather bad deal that was offered. As I understand it, it is just a 5 hour drive, so why not offer 500$ in cash + a nice rental car. At least here in Europe you most often find people willing to take a train ticket / rental car + cash, especially if it a drive of less than 7 hours and they do still arrive at the destination earlier than when waiting for the next flight.


Yup, good suggestion! Also, as I mentioned before, there was a post earlier in the thread which said there was a AA flight which left later that day which wasn't full. Why didn't the gate agent make alternate arrangements either for the crew or the IDB passengers to put them on a different flight on same day? Pay $1350 + travel few hours later, you save on hotel and people get to where they want to go few hours late. Everyone happy.

It appears that it was more of a power trip for the gate agent/crew who were incensed that the passengers didn't listen to them.

And why involve cops when there was no illegal/disruptive acts by the passenger involved? Once cops gets involved, things tend to get messy. Did they want to intimidate all the passengers by show of force? Don't know how that will help, as it will only build resentment against UA, as a company which uses force to get its way. Piss poor decision making by those involved in UA, and going by CEO's comments, appears to be the line company pushed.
 
blrsea
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:24 am

jbpdx wrote:
Lawrence Tribe tweeted this:

"So United wasn't merely crazy: it had no legal legs to stand on from the very start! Good going, United. You belong on the No-Fly list.

@ProfBanzhaf explains why United’s demand that Dr. Dao disembark was unlawful; hence, Dao didn’t have to comply"

United Airlines Cites Wrong Rule
For Illegally De-Boarding Passenger


http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united- ... passenger/


Thanks for that, the law professor lays it out well. It makes clear that the passengers do not have to follow crew's orders if they are illegal. Many of the UA employees/supporters here were using that rule which said passengers need to follow crew's instructions to call the passenger a trespasser, criminal etc because he didn't listen to the crew. At least that part of the debate is settled hopefully.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:27 am

If I understood it correctly, He would have flown the next day at 2pm. So that is about 16hours later, I understand why nobody was eager to take this deal and 800$ in UA vouchers.
 
Andy33
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:36 am

EA CO AS wrote:
zckls04 wrote:
Every story is focusing on what United should have done differently to avoid this situation occurring, not on the Chicago cops.


Would you agree that's everyone taking their collective eyes off the ball, then? Had the customer complied, albeit grudgingly, he might never fly UA again, but this wouldn't have made international news because no one would have laid a finger on him.

The news story is the beating he received, not at the hands of United, but at the hands of the Chicago police.


Here's a question. Why does the Chicago Department of Aviation need its own police department, separate from the police department of the City of Chicago?
I'm used to a situation where the police service that is responsible for the area surrounding the airport is also responsible for policing the airport itself.
I could see the logic if the airport cops received special training in oh, I don't know, removing people from planes without injury to anyone, but they obviously don't in Chicago. Way back in this vast thread posters who were past or present LEOs in the USA said that their training included resolving conflicts without using force, and if there was no alternative, using minimum force in a way that avoids injury - and these were regular police or State Troopers.
So why bother with a separate police department if the ordinary police already know how to do the job?
 
SATexan
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:40 am

seahawk wrote:
If I understood it correctly, He would have flown the next day at 2pm. So that is about 16hours later, I understand why nobody was eager to take this deal and 800$ in UA vouchers.


The flight was at 2:55 PM the following day. That is 21 hours later with the bumped passengers having to make their own accommodations, transportation arrangements and meal plans. In addition to possible lost wages due to Monday being a working day....
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:40 am

zckls04 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The mass long term exodus of UA patrons is just a pipe dream...


Agreed, but that doesn't mean it won't affect the company's bottom line. In fact it's certain that it will- the only question is to what extent. The effect may even be positive if enough people think as you do (cf. Chick-Fil-A).

Events like these in isolation don't hurt a company, but if repeated, and if a pattern is established and not addressed, they certainly can.


Ahhhh, but other carriers will inevitably have there own goofs, and so, the churn will all balance out, as the UA Business Customers will likely remain. I've gotten superb service on DL and I've gotten miserable service on DL. I've never flown UA. If both had the same price, I'd probably pick the carrier I'm already familiar with. It would take a lot more than Chicago Police screwups and Non-Rev dress code issues for me to blacklist a carrier!
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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seahawk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:45 am

SATexan wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If I understood it correctly, He would have flown the next day at 2pm. So that is about 16hours later, I understand why nobody was eager to take this deal and 800$ in UA vouchers.


The flight was at 2:55 PM the following day. That is 21 hours later with the bumped passengers having to make their own accommodations, transportation arrangements and meal plans. In addition to possible lost wages due to Monday being a working day....


No surprise nobody was willing to take the offer.
 
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zckls04
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:51 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Would you agree that's everyone taking their collective eyes off the ball, then? Had the customer complied, albeit grudgingly, he might never fly UA again, but this wouldn't have made international news because no one would have laid a finger on him.

The news story is the beating he received, not at the hands of United, but at the hands of the Chicago police.


As I said above, that's what you might think the news story should be. But that's not what the news story actually is. The news story is that United threw that passenger forcibly off the plane. We don't get to decide what the public are upset about. They're not wrong, after all- we all agree that United should have offered market-rate compensation.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
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vegas005
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:53 am

when did it become ok to tell the police no? You obey the commands and discuss the issue in a civilized way at a later point. He got his ass kicked because he was a douche...there is ALWAYS way more to the story....we will find out he is a crazy person probably....
 
jfidler
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:59 am

sandyb123 wrote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uniteds-stock-is-set-to-fall-5-and-wipe-1-billion-off-the-airlines-market-cap-2017-04-11

So the stockmarket does not like bad news. United Continental Holdings Inc stock fell sharply, recovered a bit and closed 1.1% down today, wiping $225m off the airline's value. It's not 'real money' in one sense, but it just shows how volatile the market can be to bad news and dare I say ethical investments, particularly held by individual investors.


That's actually not that bad. A 1.1% decline is as much as their stock has moved up or down on other days. I've heard of people threatening to not fly United any more. Let's see what passenger numbers look like for April, when they release them next month.

My feeling is that despite the bad publicity, customers still seek the best priced option, and if that's UA, they will still fly with them despite this incident... but I could be wrong.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:23 am

seahawk wrote:
In the end the customer is the person most to blame for what happened.


It has (and continues) to be argued that United was wrong to cite denied boarding regulations to remove this gentleman. It has also been shown that United's refusal of transport regulations do not cover the reason why they insisted this gentleman was thrown off the plane.

Chicago Airport PD would appear to have at least opened to the possibility that their officers over-reacted and used too much force. It is also fact that to refuse an unlawful order is not itself unlawful.

United CEO has finally fully apologised (albeit a day later and a billion dollars short), but probably because he had no other choice rather than because he wanted to.

Do you still stand by this statement?
 
SATexan
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:28 am

vegas005 wrote:
when did it become ok to tell the police no? You obey the commands and discuss the issue in a civilized way at a later point. He got his ass kicked because he was a douche...there is ALWAYS way more to the story....we will find out he is a crazy person probably....


When did it become ok for the police to deliver cowboy justice? Did they follow any due procedures at all? Was he harming or threatening them or did he carry any weapons on him? Did they explain to him reasonably that he was in violation of law or laws? Did they arrest him following due procedures? Did they tell him the charges? Were his rights read out?

They did none of this. By all accounts it doesn't appear that there was a lot of conversation between this so called police and the subject. The police flat out acted as cohorts of the gate agent in dragging this guy off the plane and then fled the scene which is how Dr. Dao managed to get back into the aircraft.

Any reasonable law enforcement agent should have fundamental knowledge of the law being enforced. These idiots don't seem to know the rules or procedures for VDB / IDB or why they were even there in the first place. The gate agent merely wanted this passenger out and these cops tossed him with brute force. Something we see in authoritarian regimes of the Middle East. There really was no "law enforcement". They only enforced the "authoritarian" order from the gate agent.

You can certainly say "no" to police when it comes to unreasonable searches. Even when police arrests you "lawfully" for DWI, you can still refuse to take the blood or breath test. Not saying that's necessarily good, but you can say "no" to police and not get your face busted for it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:35 am

Virtual737 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In the end the customer is the person most to blame for what happened.


It has (and continues) to be argued that United was wrong to cite denied boarding regulations to remove this gentleman. It has also been shown that United's refusal of transport regulations do not cover the reason why they insisted this gentleman was thrown off the plane.

Chicago Airport PD would appear to have at least opened to the possibility that their officers over-reacted and used too much force. It is also fact that to refuse an unlawful order is not itself unlawful.

United CEO has finally fully apologised (albeit a day later and a billion dollars short), but probably because he had no other choice rather than because he wanted to.

Do you still stand by this statement?


Yes, I would not refuse the command of a US policeman, simply because the use of excessive force is not unlikely to follow. But that does not mean that the passenger acted unlawfully and is legally to blame for what happened, this part solely rests with UA and the police. I would hope he sues and wins big against both.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:40 am

Virtual737 wrote:
It has also been shown that United's refusal of transport regulations do not cover the reason why they insisted this gentleman was thrown off the plane.


Not so fast; that was merely the interpretation of a law professor, writing for a law blog. He even begins his statement with the words, "In my belief..."

Stating this as factual is incorrect; this is merely one law professor's opinion alone.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Jetty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:42 am

United's responses on twitter are really clueless.

"@El_Benito10
Never fly with united!! @united

United‏ @united
Replying to @El_Benito10
This is very concerning. Please DM more information. ^NC"
https://mobile.twitter.com/united/statu ... 6306897920
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:44 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
It has also been shown that United's refusal of transport regulations do not cover the reason why they insisted this gentleman was thrown off the plane.


Not so fast; that was merely the interpretation of a law professor, writing for a law blog. He even begins his statement with the words, "In my belief..."

Stating this as factual is incorrect; this is merely one law professor's opinion alone.


He is not alone. Other lawyers have said pretty much the same thing. There is a consensus now that United breached its own contract with the passenger.
Last edited by ldvaviation on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BN747
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:49 am

EA CO AS wrote:
If anyone hasn't yet seen this, here's a fair, well-thought-out analysis of what occurred, and where things fell apart:

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com ... happening/



This 'frequent flyer blogger' comes across like a cheap hustler or click-bait site (example: "See How this Former Child Actor is NOW Scrubbing Toilets for Living")...and you've gotta cycle thru a million pages of mostly ads to reach the headline story on page 75! ...that is if you're prone to fall for that crap in the 1st place.

United/OM screwed the pooch in the aftermath, and the gate agents fubared from jump street.

I've been on plenty of flights where the ante was upped to the point of too many takers (volunteers)..but lately, I've gotten way too many (unpublished) horror stories re:US Carriers (talk about old news). But I didn't really need to hear them to reach my conclusion about UA.

On a UA trip from LAX-IAD-LHR-Beyond...on the ground at IAD we were seated delayed for hours we were told b the FD that weather was the culprit. All the while peering out & observing a string of going departures to the south. I flagged an FA... I gave her the ship number/reg (and thanks to m laptop) provided the year-build of the 772. Then told her, that the ship had the range for a southerly departure and the ability to whip around and head north to Heathrow (of course, the pilots already knew this). She heard me out, left never to return. The truth availed itself about 40 minutes later...when a horde of additional pax came storming down the aisles...yep, they were stalling for time for other connecting/late arrivals. These ppl were lucky, me and others..not so much - we missed our LHR connecting flights. UA stuck it to us a millions that year with this tactic.

If Asian ppl who've watched this video and are in the process of rebooking from United to other SA partners...they should. UA's service has sucked for decades and they deserved the ass-kicking they got on Wall Street today along with whatever else falls into their lap. Is Oscar up to it? Vegas odds say ..'not a chance!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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hilram
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:53 am

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
transswede wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Why would UA be in even deeper trouble if all 4 who came off were Asian? The first 3 that came off volunteered, so that doesn't matter if they were Asian or not, if they volunteered, that's their choice


I thought nobody volunteered, and those were just the three of the four that were picked?


3 volunteered

Actually, no. Nobody volunteered. 4 were picked "randomly" but now we learn that by freudian slip UA have admitted that the passengers chosen by UA were the ones that paid lowest fare, so this cements public (and court's, in due time) perception that UA only cares about the bottom line, and feels no obligation towards the customer - as is clearly the case for a couple of dorment trolls on this site. UA stock up one point again. Wait for it to come crashing down once more. The stock markets must be underestimating the impact on social media. This has't been on SNL yet, but it will!
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Virtual737
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:00 am

seahawk wrote:
Yes, I would not refuse the command of a US policeman, simply because the use of excessive force is not unlikely to follow. But that does not mean that the passenger acted unlawfully and is legally to blame for what happened, this part solely rests with UA and the police. I would hope he sues and wins big against both.


Thanks for clarifying. I understand your point of view, which was my intention.
 
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neutrino
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:07 am

hilram wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:
transswede wrote:

I thought nobody volunteered, and those were just the three of the four that were picked?


3 volunteered

Actually, no. Nobody volunteered. 4 were picked "randomly" but now we learn that by freudian slip UA have admitted that the passengers chosen by UA were the ones that paid lowest fare, so this cements public (and court's, in due time) perception that UA only cares about the bottom line, and feels no obligation towards the customer - as is clearly the case for a couple of dorment trolls on this site. UA stock up one point again. Wait for it to come crashing down once more. The stock markets must be underestimating the impact on social media. This has't been on SNL yet, but it will!


The four were "volunteered/voluntold" and three of them acquiesced. The doctor did not and was dragged screaming, bloodied and apparently knocked unconscious.

Apparently one of the passengers later recounted that one person did volunteer after a final negotiation between the doctor and a presumably station manager or at least a senior gate agent yielded no result. That volunteer offered to take $1,600 but the manager/agent laughed at him. It this is true, then she by her stupid refusal in trying to save United some money is the catalyst for the whole sorry episode. If she ante up, then all this wouldn't have happened. Oth, it might not be her fault as she might not be empowered beyond the company's strict limit.
I couldn't find the link to that story now. If anyone know of it please provide.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:12 am

The doctor has lawyered up and there were protests among Asian-Americans in the Chicago area.

In China, Weibo users are calling for a boycott. No doubt the brand has been diminished in Asia, one of United's key markets.

The doctor's past has nothing to do with this, some people are just trying to paint him as a bad apple.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
axio
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:21 am

Do airlines within an alliance help each other out? I'm wondering because Star has SQ which has got to be the most consistently great airline for customer service, as well as a number of other airlines with top rated service like OZ and NZ, and surely some lessons could be shared.

I've had only limited experience with United, but something that struck me about those few flights is that, having done the standard service, the cabin crew seem to go an hide away somewhere. When I flew Alaska they tended to be much more proactive in the cabin, and at times quite friendly/interactive with passengers - more like what I'm used to with NZ. It's as if there is a personality style that suits genuine customer service and that either UA aren't good at identifying it or their culture destroys it.

It makes me wonder if this is even a solvable problem for United. Is the (lack of) customer service culture so pervasive that new recruits quickly fall into line regardless of their nature? the end result being that the culture will outlast any individuals and their intent to change it.
Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
 
drew777
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:59 am

axio wrote:
It makes me wonder if this is even a solvable problem for United. Is the (lack of) customer service culture so pervasive that new recruits quickly fall into line regardless of their nature? the end result being that the culture will outlast any individuals and their intent to change it.


United has been terrible for as long as I can remember. I see no reason why that would change anytime soon.
 
zippy
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:11 am

OSUk1d wrote:
And just how do you rebook someone who won't get off the plane?


A variety of ways, probably starting with "don't board the plane if there aren't enough seats." Given the universal complaints that the offers weren't enticing enough, I'd suspect that if United had actually offered to rebook the passengers on a flight an hour later on another carrier... they would've had takers. In fact, wasn't there talk of how Dr. Dao had agreed to disembark until he found out the flight would be the next day? Had United made a less ridiculous offer I'm sure they could've easily gotten passengers off the plane.

OSUk1d wrote:
Also, did you evaluate him after the fact?


Nope. But given head injury, symptoms consistent with a mTBI, and a hospital stay it's a pretty easy assumption to make. Keep in mind he ran back on to the plane and was incoherent.

http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/the ... 066692.php
Last edited by zippy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2592
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:15 am

jbpdx wrote:
Lawrence Tribe tweeted this:

"So United wasn't merely crazy: it had no legal legs to stand on from the very start! Good going, United. You belong on the No-Fly list.

@ProfBanzhaf explains why United’s demand that Dr. Dao disembark was unlawful; hence, Dao didn’t have to comply"

United Airlines Cites Wrong Rule
For Illegally De-Boarding Passenger


http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united- ... passenger/


Thanks for posting this. This article very clearly explains why UA is in the wrong, and why its actions were unlawful.
The fact that they used VIOLENCE on top of their wrongdoing only exacerbates their position.
UA will be on the no-fly list for lots of people for a very long time. It will be difficult to forget the image of the poor bleeding man mumbling things while clinging to that wall....
 
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InsideMan
Posts: 353
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:37 am

oldannyboy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In the end one has to see separate parts of the incident.

1. UA refusing of service to the customer
2. customer refusing to follow the orders of law enforcement

In the end the customer is the person most to blame for what happened.


I think you must be seriously challenged if you make such a statement... I would like to see you in that same position: after you've comfortably settled your bum on the seat you get told you have to disembark 'just because' and have to obey orders! C'mon, you must be joking!


I thought the same thing. All the people here blaming the victim must be really disgruntled Airline employees who hate their jobs and their customers.
When is it ever a good idea to force a paying customer to do anything? NEVER
There is always a nice way to make people do what you need....

That being said, if I was in this situation and a US police officer asked me to step out, I probably would. I don't want to risk being shot over a missed flight, regardless of how wrong United is.

But it begs the question, where is there line where you have to comply with what the police says?
 
ubeema
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:40 am

Apologies if this info has already been posted but I thought well informed posters could confirm if DOT directives were followed by UA crew. Also can someone clarify if airlines can overrule the directives and the circumstances in the link below?
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights (scroll down to Overbooking section)

In summary:

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't.

If you are bumped involuntarily and...substitute transportation...is scheduled....within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

If ...substitute transportation...arrives at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.

If...substitute transportation...arrives to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).


The conflicting news releases (including internal memo) by the Airline CEO make it impossible to understand whether flight 3411 was overbooked/sold or simply at full capacity (how often this happens?). Does that mean a policy (if any) separate from overbooking would have applied to bump paying customers?

Overbooking like many posters said here is a very well accepted practice in the industry (most passengers understand that), and statistically speaking when there is money to be made there will always be a taker, and it will appear as business as usual for all involved. But in this case the timing was OFF and this is when one should follow the rule to the letter, meaning clearly explain the inconvenienced customer their right and options. The airline should be prepared to go above and beyond (unless someone here believe otherwise it was unprecedented and unexpected to have 4 crew to reposition). I do not know how if at all United's IDB policies differ from DOT, but the inconsistent statements from the airline Hint they are not sure their own rules were followed. Seems like we will know more April 30. I hope the gentleman recovers well and United make him whole from this terrible ordeal.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:01 am

This was not a case of overbooking. This was more of an illegal grab of already sold and occupied seat. There wasn't any disorderly conduct of the passenger too, to warrant his removal. So it is just power grab by the airlines, using the "passengers shall follow crew's direction at all times or face eviction" for their own benefit, however illegal their action could be. In the end, it comes down to UA wanting to use the least possible cost to move their crew, even at the cost of their customers so that they can "minimize losses". And this for an airline whose profits were in billions last year
 
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CorpCareer
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:14 am

Interesting story. I heard from another source that it was a last minute change due to the need to get crewmembers to SDF to fill in for a flight that for one reason or another had no crew available. If it was an overbooking issue it would have been dealt with at the gate prior to boarding I would assume.
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OSUk1d
Posts: 150
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:15 am

socalgeo wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
kavok wrote:

To be in their shoes, you had to be someone who was morally okay with removing a seated passenger for a company employee. Legal or not, that is not morally okay.



so you'd rather cancel a whole flight the next day than inconvenience four people on that flight?

Yes, I'd rather they cancel a flight than kick my ass and drag me down the aisle with a bloody face.... Duh!


Clearly I'm not talking about the point of view of the person who refused to leave the plane.
 
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CorpCareer
Posts: 12
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:28 am

OSUk1d wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:


so you'd rather cancel a whole flight the next day than inconvenience four people on that flight?

Yes, I'd rather they cancel a flight than kick my ass and drag me down the aisle with a bloody face.... Duh!


Clearly I'm not talking about the point of view of the person who refused to leave the plane.


OSUk1d - I'm with you on this.....people don't think about it in the big picture. They only think about it in the context of how it affects them personally....Ask them this....Say they were one of the passengers of that other flight that was waiting for the crew from Chicago. Then their flight had to cancel because 1 passenger didn't want to get off the plane. Then how would they feel? I bet they change how they feel all of a sudden then.

How does it make sense to have to cancel the other flight and inconvenience dozens or hundreds(if it was mainline not republic RJ's) of other passengers over 4 pax? It doesn't and people should know that anytime you buy a ticket there is always the possibility that you can be asked or chosen or voluntold to get off the plane....thats just how it works.

I bet you they would have put him on the next flight or even another airline to get him where he needed to go. They have done it to me before, and it wasnt an issue.
Last edited by CorpCareer on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:35 am

For all the BS this has caused? Customer service should be investigated! They knew damn good and well the CS agents were booked on the flight!
They've done this before even with mechanics going to FIX broken airplanes. But Management doesn't want to charter a biz jet to get the people down there because they won't think in the "big picture". Well? This is the "BIG PICTURE"! Quit thinking in the "Cheap"!!
They could have chartered a UAX jet to get these people down there if they HAD to be there.
The bad thing about this merger is that people won't ( or can't) think "out of the box" anymore!!
This all could have been avoided even is it required an upgage in airplanes.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:45 am

CorpCareer wrote:

I bet you they would have put him on the next flight or even another airline to get him where he needed to go. They have done it to me before, and it wasnt an issue.


I doubt if there would have a been a problem had they offered to put him on the AA flight from ORD to SDF, which went out one hour later, and according to other posters here, with empty seats. There probably wouldn't have been a problem if they'd offered to put him on the evening United flight that day to SDF either. But they didn't.
The offer was for a United flight on the following afternoon.
We don't know if the evening United flight on the day of this incident was full or not, but it wasn't offered.
So the offer was $800 in vouchers, not even cash, and a 22 hour delay.
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1500
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:47 am

For all of the people exclaiming CHICAGO COPS! UNITED DID NOTHING WRONG! FOLLOW ORDERS, the WSJ has a decent article explaining how United's own procedures may have caused this.

How United and Delta Manage Overbooked Flights Differently

http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-united- ... 1491951711
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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c933103
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:57 am

so... Fron the Japanese post I was reading, all the four passengers being taken off the flight were Asian?
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shintaenam
Posts: 14
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:03 am

c933103 wrote:
so... Fron the Japanese post I was reading, all the four passengers being taken off the flight were Asian?


It was reported as such in all Chinese newspaper as such, to be specific, they were all Chinese citizens.
 
Virtual737
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:09 am

CorpCareer wrote:
OSUk1d - I'm with you on this.....people don't think about it in the big picture. They only think about it in the context of how it affects them personally....Ask them this....Say they were one of the passengers of that other flight....


It's not the customers responsibility (read that as problem) to think about the 70 / 100 / 200 on the other flight. That burden falls fully on the airline. Clearly United could have done many things to get the 4 crew to their destination that would have cost them a whole load less than it did on this occasion. They chose a course of action which, in my humble opinion, failed to see the even bigger picture than you are suggesting the customer should have seen.

Forgive me (and slam me) if I've got your intentions wrong.
 
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GlenP
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:12 am

axio wrote:
Do airlines within an alliance help each other out? I'm wondering because Star has SQ which has got to be the most consistently great airline for customer service, as well as a number of other airlines with top rated service like OZ and NZ, and surely some lessons could be shared.

I've had only limited experience with United, but something that struck me about those few flights is that, having done the standard service, the cabin crew seem to go an hide away somewhere. When I flew Alaska they tended to be much more proactive in the cabin, and at times quite friendly/interactive with passengers - more like what I'm used to with NZ. It's as if there is a personality style that suits genuine customer service and that either UA aren't good at identifying it or their culture destroys it.

It makes me wonder if this is even a solvable problem for United. Is the (lack of) customer service culture so pervasive that new recruits quickly fall into line regardless of their nature? the end result being that the culture will outlast any individuals and their intent to change it.


On the basis of this debacle, and personal experience, they could call in MS and get lessons in customer service.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1584
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:14 am

Leslieville wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Several things they didn't actually overbook a flight, they removed a man by force to make room for staff. Also this wasn't United it was Republic Airlines that code-shares with United wearing their livery. They have different rules than UA. not sure why everybody dogging on UA.
the bottom line, this TRULY NOT a airline issue.

as someone mentioned he was asked to leave, he didn't, security was called.

The abuse that followed was on security not the airline.

You may wonder, why getting staff on a plane is so important. These things are booked months in advance, however due to delays and flight cancellations and weather issues in other cities sometimes staff is moved to plane at the last minute so they can get to their destination on time to fly their plane.

why would they do that? so that they don't have to cancel their flight or delay their flight causing passenger to miss their connections, it literally a butterfly effect.


The rules in the past have always been the last one on the plane is the first one off the plane. However it seems like everybody was boarded. since this was a codeshare flight, i'm sure the gate agent didn't have access to the information which means she/he probably had closed out the flight.

and couldn't use the normal rules, until she/he called corporate and got them open again, there was no time so they did the random drawing.
i like how everybody wants to blame the airline, the gate agent, and everybody else but those who were responsible. give me a break

read your right of carriage contract. airlines have the right to break the contract/your ticket at any time as long as they offer your compensation and get you on the next available flight to your destination. which the airlines was trying to do.

Don't be surprised if this Dr. isn't charged. refusing to leave a plane when asked and being forcibly removed is a serious offense.


I don't know a thing about you, such as whether you work for an airline or are a road warrior, but somewhere, somehow, you seem to have been captured by the perspective of airline management and fail to see that the points you noted are irrelevant or mindbogglingly opaque to the vast majority of the traveling public. They don't know or care that some flights on airlines are operated by regional airlines DBA some variation on the name of the main airline. They don't know or care about the Byzantine rules of carriage or the compensation matrices that are going to attempt to compensate them for the inconvenience, insult, and embarrassment of being ejected from a plane through no fault of their own because it is in the airline's best interest to do so. They buy a ticket with airline X and as far as they are concerned, airline X is responsible for any subcontracting or partnerships that airline X chooses to use to fulfill the purchase of service.

Blaming the victim is precisely what you have done and precisely what the CEO of United did. The guy freaked out and the police were brutal but those all resulted from the airline's poor choices. It is the fault of United that this happened. Full stop.

Edited for minor improvements to clarity and a typo. Make that two typos.


i've been in the industry for 30 years. i'm just telling you how it is. lot of people don't like how it is. obviously.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2592
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:16 am

In a post 9/11 world, and especially in the USA, a belligerent, defiant, and unruly passenger who will not abide by airline (documented) policy despite attempts by airline officials in reasonable, professional, and calm attempts in dealing with this IDB situation over a significant period of time, will ultimately be removed from the flight as necessary when the behavior escalates and continues unabated.

[/quote]

It's about time for the US to get out of "the post 9/11 syndrome'. It's precisely because of this [the syndrome, not 9/11 itself] that so many things have become so desperately complicated.
 
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GlenP
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:17 am

ubeema wrote:
Apologies if this info has already been posted but I thought well informed posters could confirm if DOT directives were followed by UA crew. Also can someone clarify if airlines can overrule the directives and the circumstances in the link below?
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights (scroll down to Overbooking section)

In summary:

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't.

If you are bumped involuntarily and...substitute transportation...is scheduled....within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

If ...substitute transportation...arrives at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.

If...substitute transportation...arrives to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).


The conflicting news releases (including internal memo) by the Airline CEO make it impossible to understand whether flight 3411 was overbooked/sold or simply at full capacity (how often this happens?). Does that mean a policy (if any) separate from overbooking would have applied to bump paying customers?

Overbooking like many posters said here is a very well accepted practice in the industry (most passengers understand that), and statistically speaking when there is money to be made there will always be a taker, and it will appear as business as usual for all involved. But in this case the timing was OFF and this is when one should follow the rule to the letter, meaning clearly explain the inconvenienced customer their right and options. The airline should be prepared to go above and beyond (unless someone here believe otherwise it was unprecedented and unexpected to have 4 crew to reposition). I do not know how if at all United's IDB policies differ from DOT, but the inconsistent statements from the airline Hint they are not sure their own rules were followed. Seems like we will know more April 30. I hope the gentleman recovers well and United make him whole from this terrible ordeal.


US Today is reporting that United have admitted the flight wasn't overbooked.

See: http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/united-airlines-says-controversial-flight-was-not-overbooked-ceo-apologizes-again/ar-BBzK3pM?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp
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