Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Noshow
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:16 am

Are there any other industries that can revoke their product after selling it to a paying customer in a similar way?
Imagine you are in your Hotel room and suddenly you get thrown out for some Hotel workers needing sleep.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:34 am

Noshow wrote:
Are there any other industries that can revoke their product after selling it to a paying customer in a similar way?
Imagine you are in your Hotel room and suddenly you get thrown out for some Hotel workers needing sleep.


There are some software licenses I've needed to agree to that say as much. Only one to date has actually used the clause.

More importantly I can't think of many (any!) that wouldn't expect a big customer fallout by exercising such rights and none that would call LEA to enforce their demand within a few minutes.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:57 am

Virtual737 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
How about the big 3 finally up their game and get serious about putting the customer first?


I am not a moderator here but I would suggest you stick to arguments that have at least a slim chance of coming into being ;)


Well, if you read my post in its entirety, you could see that I was referring (and responding) to a post about overbooking practices by the 'majors', and I was simply pointing out that LCCs don't do overbooking yet happily manage to survive and stay in the black. In that context I believe you can better understand what my comment was meant to mean..

Then again, if you mean that 'putting the customer first' for the US3 is akin to daydreaming and wishful-thinking I guess you are right sadly... Other airlines do manage to do this quite well actually though...
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:03 am

Olddog wrote:
Reading this thread, i got the feeling that airlines workers have been brainwashed and think that acting like total bully, as they are always right, is the way to go....


I actually think you are right. It certainly comes across as a big chunk of the "what's wrong with air travel today" equation. Rude, abrasive staff, who are either not educated and trained well enough, don't give a damn about the customer (=human beings) and are not empowered with any positive creative-thinking and acting techniques. Empathy used to be taught as one of the core values of customer care years ago.....
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:17 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Reading this thread, i got the feeling that airlines workers have been brainwashed and think that acting like total bully, as they are always right, is the way to go....


I actually think you are right. It certainly comes across as a big chunk of the "what's wrong with air travel today" equation. Rude, abrasive staff, who are either not educated and trained well enough, don't give a damn about the customer (=human beings) and are not empowered with any positive creative-thinking and acting techniques. Empathy used to be taught as one of the core values of customer care years ago.....


Alas, pay peanuts, get monkeys :-(

I find it surprising that other sectors in the US have such outstanding customer service and it seems that some of the air carriers have some of the worst in the world.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21487
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:33 am

United1 wrote:
Were they suspended for removing him from the aircraft or how they removed him from the aircraft?


Does it matter? The whole incident was sufficiently badly handled that their bosses felt they needed to be suspended.

seahawk wrote:
They probably were called to remove an unruly passenger.


I guess we'll find out in the fullness of time, but it seems clear the Doctor wasn't unruly.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:33 am

NorthTerminal wrote:
Alas, pay peanuts, get monkeys :-(

That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:43 am

neutrino wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
Alas, pay peanuts, get monkeys :-(

That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away.


I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on staff quality, but I do like where you went with the analogy :rotfl:
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:51 am

GlenP wrote:
Is it normal for Law Enforcement Officers and agencies to intervene in such non-criminal incidents and to , in effect, act as the enforcers of corporate decisions?


Very common here not only in aviation, couple of off-topic examples

When an Apple employee lost iPhone 5 prototype at a bar, San Francisco police stood guard while Apple security searched house of the guy who was in the bar same time.
http://gizmodo.com/5837072/san-francisc ... t-iphone-5

On threatening customers, the best example is a blog by AT&T Chief Legal Officer why customers cannot use PAID data for FaceTime.
https://www.attpublicpolicy.com/fcc/ena ... d-network/

Standard technique they will try to shame the customer calling them cheap and if you complaint too much prices will go up.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:01 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
neutrino wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
Alas, pay peanuts, get monkeys :-(

That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away.


I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on staff quality, but I do like where you went with the analogy :rotfl:

My bad for not paying attention, thereby hitting my head on the seat rest and dragging myself down the wrong aisle. :oops:
 
User avatar
InsideMan
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:20 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
bogota wrote:
sergegva wrote:

For no reason? Why?


For what I can gather in by reading here from some people it is simply because in the USA the police can do what ever and nobody can question them. Kind of what is called martial law in most other countries. Something is very wrong when people who do nothing wrong are beaten up by police simply because an airline staff member can call up the police when they need to enforce their own incompetence. If they overbooked and had to sort out the problem, police should never get involved unless somebody is threatening or posing danger to somebody else. Delaying an aircraft because he was randomly picked is not his problem but the airlines´ problem.



they certainly can ask you to leave private property.


if you rent an appartment the landlord can't call the Police to remove you from his property!
You have a valid contract that gives you the right to be there. If you don't like it, go to court.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:27 pm

neutrino wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
neutrino wrote:
That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away.


I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on staff quality, but I do like where you went with the analogy :rotfl:

My bad for not paying attention, thereby hitting my head on the seat rest and dragging myself down the wrong aisle. :oops:


Don't be so hard on yourself and call off the legal team, the lawyers would be the only winners anyway, I probably didn't make myself clear :-)
 
United1
Posts: 4348
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:45 pm

scbriml wrote:
United1 wrote:
Were they suspended for removing him from the aircraft or how they removed him from the aircraft?


Does it matter? The whole incident was sufficiently badly handled that their bosses felt they needed to be suspended.

.


Absolutely it matters....I've suspended employees for doing something they were allowed to do but doing it, like in this case the wrong way (ie dragging.)
 
MontaukMonster
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:41 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:54 pm

So the cavalier gate agent laughs when someone suggests higher compensation? He/she trys to save United an few hundred bucks but ends up costing United millions of dollars. Can't make this up if you tried.
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:15 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Olddog wrote:

I find it surprising that other sectors in the US have such outstanding customer service and it seems that some of the air carriers have some of the worst in the world.


Do they really?

I actually don't think customer service in the USA is that great... In some cases you get smiley folks, but that don't make good CS... And you have to pay for it, too (tipping, ugh!).

But at least you don't have your steak take from your plate and given to a more important person and then dragged out by police.
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:34 pm

Stratofish wrote:
bralo20 wrote:
And even this new video proves that the doctor remained calm, he wasn't a threat, he just declined an unreasonable request and subsequently disobeyed an unlawful order.


Honestly, I so feel for the poor officer who did nothing but his job. I am also deeply disturbed by the reactions of people on here and worldwide. Again, aboard an airplane you do as you are told. And if you are told to leave you leave. You will be compensated later. You're plans for the other day or your profession is completely irrelevant in this kind of situation.

Now the one who only did his job in a very proper way gets fired and fried while an unreasonably childish acting adult will be rewarded compensation for pain and suffering that he inflicted on himself. Crazy world!


Are we talking about an airplane or Maximum a security Prison.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 1065
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:47 pm

I actually don't think customer service in the USA is that great... In some cases you get smiley folks, but that don't make good CS... And you have to pay for it, too (tipping, ugh!).


CONCUR! My pet peeve is buying something and the cashier doesn't say, "Thank you." I have to, to which they finally say, "You're welcome," as if they're doing you a favor. Um, it should be the other way around.

It was the same on my last UAL flight on 12/27 or 28. The gate agent was awesome, funny as heck and really worked to get everyone onboard, including stand-bys showing that it can be done right. The cabin crew, however, looked like guards on a prison barge to Devil's Island. Seriously, they never smiled, glared at passengers, and we talked about this as a family afterwards since it was so different than what we expected. "Thank you?" Nope, not even when deplaning. It was like the "Bu-bye," skit from Saturday Night Live, only surlier. And no, I'm not making this up. It was really like that!

The "best" part was when a pax was using the overhead bin and momentarily blocking the aisle and a flight attendant wanted to get by.

"Oh, don't worry I'll wait for you."

Imagine the most sarcastic, snarkiest tone. A number of us turned our heads at that.

Two of my last three UAL flights featured this sort of 'tude and lack of caring. The copious lack of empathy demonstrated by UAL isn't unique to the USA. It is, however, far more visible because when an employee misbehaves it's in front of an entire planeload of people, people who have the money to travel and can likely afford to go elsewhere. That's what Oscar and his pals need to understand. The flying public usually can fly a different carrier, not always but often, and if they don't raise their customer care game in a big way all across the board, then the fallout will be long lasting and perhaps permanent.

One final thing that Oscar should try to communicate to his troops: it's amazing what a smile and a thank you will get you.

Bob
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:52 pm

Stratofish wrote:
Again, aboard an airplane you do as you are told.


If you in your profession are empowered with command, the absolute emphasis in training should be on WHEN to use that power, not HOW to use that power. Misuse that power even once and you make your future task so much more difficult.

I might come across as being against "this power" but the truth is quite the opposite. I am truly worried that events such as this will erode the travelling publics instant "yes sir" response to a command on an aircraft when it is absolutely necessary.
Last edited by Virtual737 on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sspontak
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:53 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Are there any other industries that can revoke their product after selling it to a paying customer in a similar way?
Imagine you are in your Hotel room and suddenly you get thrown out for some Hotel workers needing sleep.


Right. Once a passenger is seated, an airline should not have them removed. The airline had an opportunity to IDB prior to boarding. At that point it should be the airline's loss not the passenger or find a passenger that agrees to some hefty compensation. Someone will bite at the right price. In this case they did not go high enough.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:53 pm

dc9northwest wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:


Do they really?

I actually don't think customer service in the USA is that great... In some cases you get smiley folks, but that don't make good CS... And you have to pay for it, too (tipping, ugh!).

But at least you don't have your steak take from your plate and given to a more important person and then dragged out by police.


Maybe things have changed, it's been almost two decades since I last visited, but back then I found that retail and hospitality staff were very courteous and would bend over backward to make yours a pleasant experience.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:23 pm

Stratofish wrote:
Again, if the crew tells you to leave, you leave. it is not your call to judge on the issue while inside the aircraft. I will acknowledge I am not a lawyer but I fail to see any legal wrongdoing by the LEO. If you don't obey the crew you are in the wrong, period. Inside the aircraft the domestic authority lies with UA. Why was the LEO wrong enforcing the domestic authority of UA? He wasn't. If somebody enters your home and you choose you want him or her to leave for whatever reason and the person just won't leave you'll also call the cops, won't you? That's just the very same kind of situation.


This is basically always correct, unless the crew is the one committing a crime, in which case the LEO should arrest the crew.

In general, resisting arrest is illegal EVEN IF THE ARREST IS WRONGFUL. Being dragged / flailing probably counts as resisting. You then sue the police later. You do not resist cops. You have to be crazy to do that, which is why I immediately assumed Dao is mentally incompetent.

Dao won and was vindicated, in retrospect. But on that day, everybody including Dao (and including Oscar Munoz) did their job right. I have respect for everybody involved. Oddly enough.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:28 pm

MontaukMonster wrote:
So the cavalier gate agent laughs when someone suggests higher compensation? He/she trys to save United an few hundred bucks but ends up costing United millions of dollars. Can't make this up if you tried.


The gate agent had no power to change the United oversale procedure. A gate agent is not an officer of the company with that kind of authority. In the future, they will give gate agents a bit more leeway, but giving people in the field power could easily lead to other esoteric legal problems. And most gate agents are not active attorneys, so they might not foresee the ramification of their boarding decisions. After all, United's management with its lawyers failed to do so.

They will create a better procedure and gate agent's job will be to apply that procedure correctly. Which she did in this case.
Last edited by Flighty on Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:29 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
neutrino wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:

I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on staff quality, but I do like where you went with the analogy :rotfl:

My bad for not paying attention, thereby hitting my head on the seat rest and dragging myself down the wrong aisle. :oops:


Don't be so hard on yourself and call off the legal team, the lawyers would be the only winners anyway, I probably didn't make myself clear :-)

Clear you are. It's my concussion and blood streaming out of my mouth that clouds my mind, making me disorientated. :ashamed:
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:31 pm

And, the LA Times continues to take it to United.

http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus ... story.html

This story is more damaging than the last one...
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
A question to those suggesting (and I'm not arguing with your opinion) that the gentleman should have got off the flight and then argued the toss with United.

Have you ever tried this yourself? Once you leave that plane a great deal of your bargaining power has gone. You have already suffered the loss, the airline has not and you are at their whim as to what compensation you may or may not get. Remember, while you are put to all this inconvenience, you did absolutely nothing wrong.

Sure you might have some laws on your side, but there is a very good chance that you don't know them, a very good chance that you will not be told them by the airline and perhaps a good chance that you don't have the financial means or will to take on a huge corporation.

The airlines (and other industries too but let's not go there) know this. It has finally come to bite them (or at least United) in the backside. Maybe it is about time.


Good post. And yes, he would not have won the argument (realistically). We all have tried to argue something with airlines, and realize that it often falls to their operational discretion, as spelled out IN THE CONTRACT and in all known cases.

People are just mad that the cops dragged him out and he got bloody, and is a doctor. It made us think about the procedure in a new way. Pervading legal interpretation changed across the land. But to answer your question, without that video, making people so emotional, he had no case in the airport AND he had no case in his refusal to exit the aircraft, which he arguably had absolutely no grounds to make. Arguably absolutely none. But, now we are saying he does have a right to be there. So, that's a huge change IMO.
 
User avatar
GlenP
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Flighty wrote:
MontaukMonster wrote:
So the cavalier gate agent laughs when someone suggests higher compensation? He/she trys to save United an few hundred bucks but ends up costing United millions of dollars. Can't make this up if you tried.


The gate agent had no power to change the United oversale procedure. A gate agent is not an officer of the company with that kind of authority. In the future, they will give gate agents a bit more leeway, but giving people in the field power could easily lead to other esoteric legal problems. And most gate agents are not active attorneys, so they might not foresee the ramification of their boarding decisions. After all, United's management with its lawyers failed to do so.

They will create a better procedure and gate agent's job will be to apply that procedure correctly. Which she did in this case.


The flight was not oversold, merely sold to capacity, a point already confirmed by OM, so the oversale or overbooking procedure does not apply in this instance.

Seeing as the airline's CEO has already admitted that the passenger did nothing wrong, pretty much owning up to this being a cock-up on United's part, it's a bit pointless trying to pull the airline's fat out of the fire.

Perhaps it would be more rewarding to consider ways in which they can improve matters; and this should not include rewriting the COC terms in such a as to give airline staff carte blanche, and prevent such a series of events happening in future?
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:40 pm

GlenP wrote:
Flighty wrote:
MontaukMonster wrote:
So the cavalier gate agent laughs when someone suggests higher compensation? He/she trys to save United an few hundred bucks but ends up costing United millions of dollars. Can't make this up if you tried.


The gate agent had no power to change the United oversale procedure. A gate agent is not an officer of the company with that kind of authority. In the future, they will give gate agents a bit more leeway, but giving people in the field power could easily lead to other esoteric legal problems. And most gate agents are not active attorneys, so they might not foresee the ramification of their boarding decisions. After all, United's management with its lawyers failed to do so.

They will create a better procedure and gate agent's job will be to apply that procedure correctly. Which she did in this case.


The flight was not oversold, merely sold to capacity, a point already confirmed by OM, so the oversale or overbooking procedure does not apply in this instance.

Seeing as the airline's CEO has already admitted that the passenger did nothing wrong, pretty much owning up to this being a cock-up on United's part, it's a bit pointless trying to pull the airline's fat out of the fire.

Perhaps it would be more rewarding to consider ways in which they can improve matters; and this should not include rewriting the COC terms in such a as to give airline staff carte blanche, and prevent such a series of events happening in future?


That is a good lawyerly argument to make, but physically in the booking system, those 4 crew were likely "booked" if not "sold." The revenue management dept did not overbook the flight. So that's a true statement. It was oversold only in retrospect.

The 4 ejected people will be in the count of denied boardings compiled by the government and by the airline; at least internally, the airline will probably call them "oversales." The government will count them as denied boardings.
Last edited by Flighty on Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3414
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:41 pm

Flighty wrote:
Stratofish wrote:
Again, if the crew tells you to leave, you leave. it is not your call to judge on the issue while inside the aircraft. I will acknowledge I am not a lawyer but I fail to see any legal wrongdoing by the LEO. If you don't obey the crew you are in the wrong, period. Inside the aircraft the domestic authority lies with UA. Why was the LEO wrong enforcing the domestic authority of UA? He wasn't. If somebody enters your home and you choose you want him or her to leave for whatever reason and the person just won't leave you'll also call the cops, won't you? That's just the very same kind of situation.


This is basically always correct, unless the crew is the one committing a crime, in which case the LEO should arrest the crew.

In general, resisting arrest is illegal EVEN IF THE ARREST IS WRONGFUL. Being dragged / flailing probably counts as resisting. You then sue the police later. You do not resist cops. You have to be crazy to do that, which is why I immediately assumed Dao is mentally incompetent.

Dao won and was vindicated, in retrospect. But on that day, everybody including Dao (and including Oscar Munoz) did their job right. I have respect for everybody involved. Oddly enough.


Incorrect. On that day, Dr. Dao was maltreated, and Mr. Muñoz has lately stated as much. Dr. Dao was never in the wrong to insist on his rights. No one who trampled upon Dr. Dao's rights "did their job right". That includes UA employees and the cops that they sicced on Dr. Dao.

I don't know why you insist on excusing the inexcusable. Mr. Muñoz is no longer doing so.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5643
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:42 pm

Given Oscarito´s statements today:

"We have apologized and given a 100% refund to EVERY SINGLE passenger on the flight"

Had my family been on that flight we would have been traumatized, not that we would even think of suing, but sick, exhausted, and offended at what happened. I suspect most of the passengers felt as we would have. While I don't boycott generally, I don't like feeling extremely nauseous either, and would avoid United in the future on that basis.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:42 pm

GlenP wrote:
The flight was not oversold, merely sold to capacity, a point already confirmed by OM, so the oversale or overbooking procedure does not apply in this instance.

Seeing as the airline's CEO has already admitted that the passenger did nothing wrong, pretty much owning up to this being a cock-up on United's part, it's a bit pointless trying to pull the airline's fat out of the fire.

Perhaps it would be more rewarding to consider ways in which they can improve matters; and this should not include rewriting the COC terms in such a as to give airline staff carte blanche, and prevent such a series of events happening in future?


The only way to ensure that UA or any airlines for that matter will write a legally tenable contract is if the current case goes to court. Let the court decide on the technicalities. It will make clear whats right and whats not, and will benefit the entire industry
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:49 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Stratofish wrote:
Again, if the crew tells you to leave, you leave. it is not your call to judge on the issue while inside the aircraft. I will acknowledge I am not a lawyer but I fail to see any legal wrongdoing by the LEO. If you don't obey the crew you are in the wrong, period. Inside the aircraft the domestic authority lies with UA. Why was the LEO wrong enforcing the domestic authority of UA? He wasn't. If somebody enters your home and you choose you want him or her to leave for whatever reason and the person just won't leave you'll also call the cops, won't you? That's just the very same kind of situation.


This is basically always correct, unless the crew is the one committing a crime, in which case the LEO should arrest the crew.

In general, resisting arrest is illegal EVEN IF THE ARREST IS WRONGFUL. Being dragged / flailing probably counts as resisting. You then sue the police later. You do not resist cops. You have to be crazy to do that, which is why I immediately assumed Dao is mentally incompetent.

Dao won and was vindicated, in retrospect. But on that day, everybody including Dao (and including Oscar Munoz) did their job right. I have respect for everybody involved. Oddly enough.


Incorrect. On that day, Dr. Dao was maltreated, and Mr. Muñoz has lately stated as much. Dr. Dao was never in the wrong to insist on his rights. No one who trampled upon Dr. Dao's rights "did their job right". That includes UA employees and the cops that they sicced on Dr. Dao.

I don't know why you insist on excusing the inexcusable. Mr. Muñoz is no longer doing so.


That's the system we had through Q1 2017. The right you are describing has never been tested in court and I have no idea whether it is real. But public opinion now supports that.

Munoz said exactly what I said on Monday, which was correct through March 2017, perfectly stated by him. But it is not correct anymore, because a huge earthquake of public opinion changed it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:53 pm

blrsea wrote:
GlenP wrote:
The flight was not oversold, merely sold to capacity, a point already confirmed by OM, so the oversale or overbooking procedure does not apply in this instance.

Seeing as the airline's CEO has already admitted that the passenger did nothing wrong, pretty much owning up to this being a cock-up on United's part, it's a bit pointless trying to pull the airline's fat out of the fire.

Perhaps it would be more rewarding to consider ways in which they can improve matters; and this should not include rewriting the COC terms in such a as to give airline staff carte blanche, and prevent such a series of events happening in future?


The only way to ensure that UA or any airlines for that matter will write a legally tenable contract is if the current case goes to court. Let the court decide on the technicalities. It will make clear whats right and whats not, and will benefit the entire industry


I think the contracts are resonably clear, and that the problem is one of nterpretation, which needs to be provided. Is it possible to IDB a boarded passenger... I would say not. The oversale procedure at check-in and the gate works very well. It has been in effect for years and most airlines manage it without incident. The problems started here when they allowed someone onto the aircraft that they did not want there.

Secondly, if you need someone off of an aircraft and you have no other reason to ask them other than commercial imperative, offer money until you have room... or make your contract very clear that at certain fares your seat is not guaranteed until push back... the frugal individuals that accept such fares then know what they are risking.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:59 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
or make your contract very clear that at certain fares your seat is not guaranteed until push back...


Didn't someone post earlier that one current contract stated IDB could happen "at any time" and "for any reason"? I think they should at least limit this to below 10,000ft ;)
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:59 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
I think the contracts are resonably clear, and that the problem is one of nterpretation, which needs to be provided. Is it possible to IDB a boarded passenger... I would say not. The oversale procedure at check-in and the gate works very well. It has been in effect for years and most airlines manage it without incident. The problems started here when they allowed someone onto the aircraft that they did not want there.

Secondly, if you need someone off of an aircraft and you have no other reason to ask them other than commercial imperative, offer money until you have room... or make your contract very clear that at certain fares your seat is not guaranteed until push back... the frugal individuals that accept such fares then know what they are risking.


Totally agree with you here. But many here incl UA employees have kept saying that boarding is not complete till the crew announces its done. So there is that first issue of interpretation. Two, again airline folks keep saying that passengers should have been happy with what UA offered (even if its worthless vouchers) and UA is under no obligation to increase compensation.

If everyone agreed on your points, there would be no debate. However, its exactly around those two issues that there is a debate. So let the courts decide
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:06 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Didn't someone post earlier that one current contract stated IDB could happen "at any time" and "for any reason"? I think they should at least limit this to below 10,000ft ;)


Up until now, I wouldn't be certain the UA crew would have offered you a chute ;-)

blrsea wrote:
If everyone agreed on your points, there would be no debate. However, its exactly around those two issues that there is a debate. So let the courts decide


I don't think it will make it to court, but the DoT and the FAA will certainly have their say... and I imagine IATA will have to be involved too, as the ramifications will effect ticketing regs worldwide.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:07 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Didn't someone post earlier that one current contract stated IDB could happen "at any time" and "for any reason"? I think they should at least limit this to below 10,000ft ;)


Up until now, I wouldn't be certain the UA crew would have offered you a chute ;-)

blrsea wrote:
If everyone agreed on your points, there would be no debate. However, its exactly around those two issues that there is a debate. So let the courts decide


I don't think it will make it to court, but the DoT and the FAA will certainly have their say... and I imagine IATA will have to be involved too, as the ramifications may affect ticketing regs worldwide.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:17 pm

blrsea wrote:
Totally agree with you here. But many here incl UA employees have kept saying that boarding is not complete till the crew announces its done. So there is that first issue of interpretation. Two, again airline folks keep saying that passengers should have been happy with what UA offered (even if its worthless vouchers) and UA is under no obligation to increase compensation.

If everyone agreed on your points, there would be no debate. However, its exactly around those two issues that there is a debate. So let the courts decide


On the first point, that is true (except it's the gate agent that controls boarding, not the crew, so they decide when to close out the flight). On the second point, nobody has an obligation to be happy with anything the airline offers. Whether they should have to accept it is another matter, and IMO the airline should have to offer at least their maximum IDB compensation, if not more, before removing anyone. It does not appear that happened here, and for that United deserves criticism.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1982
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:18 pm

Flighty wrote:
In general, resisting arrest is illegal EVEN IF THE ARREST IS WRONGFUL. Being dragged / flailing probably counts as resisting. You then sue the police later. You do not resist cops. You have to be crazy to do that, which is why I immediately assumed Dao is mentally incompetent.


I think this really must be a USA thing (sorry if I'm wrongfully assuming that's where you are). I think some amount of resistance is acceptable when you truly think the police are out of line. To have to blindly go along with *any* request means you're in a police state.

There was a case in Bristol a couple of months ago when a policewoman tasered a guy for "resisting arrest"... and it was the police that caught the flak for it. The guy was stopped and asked for his ID while entering his home and he said they had no right to demand that ... argument ensues ... police (unlawfully) try to follow him in to his house ... he gets knocked down ... tasering. (In the face, believe it or not!)

Again this was in the news since someone filmed it - and it featured a couple of salient points to spice up the story a bit: 1) he "looked like a criminal", 2) he turned out to be a local race-relations representative for the city.

As I said - the police (quite rightly) caught the flak for it, not him.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1982
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:29 pm

blrsea wrote:
But many here incl UA employees have kept saying that boarding is not complete till the crew announces its done. So there is that first issue of interpretation.


Some airline people don't seem to be very good at interpreting English. "Boarding complete" means "everyone is boarded" - i.e. before that point some people may not be boarded BUT SOME PEOPLE MAY ALREADY BE BOARDED. So I can definitely be boarded before that announcement.

In pure language terms, each passenger is boarded the moment they step over the threshold. That is what the word means, for goodness' sake!

Personally, I would argue that a technical definition would be once the boarding pass has been scanned - since, again, that is what the term *BOARDING* PASS means! At that point, you are in the system as being *ON-BOARD* the aircraft. Hence, for operational purposes this must be the legal definition of boarded, right?!?

Airline staff arguing otherwise either have poor language skills or are too far removed from reality to see how stupid their argument is.
 
bogota
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:42 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Flighty wrote:
In general, resisting arrest is illegal EVEN IF THE ARREST IS WRONGFUL. Being dragged / flailing probably counts as resisting. You then sue the police later. You do not resist cops. You have to be crazy to do that, which is why I immediately assumed Dao is mentally incompetent.


I think this really must be a USA thing (sorry if I'm wrongfully assuming that's where you are). I think some amount of resistance is acceptable when you truly think the police are out of line. To have to blindly go along with *any* request means you're in a police state.


Absolutely right, this guy was not being arrested, he did nothing wrong, police should had never even been involved. It seems those police were not interested in maintaing the calm and order but rather they were trigger ready to back their buddy friends from the airline. Totally out of line.
 
User avatar
NIKV69
Posts: 15252
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:49 pm

This press conference is epic! If I ever need a lawyer I am calling this guy!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:51 pm

However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate, Where will this end? Sometimes the weather changes and you need to remove passengers after boarding, as you need extra fuel for a possible diversion, who would believe you and what do you do if the passengers refuse to leave? Cancel the whole flight? Overbooking and gaining other economic advantages from removing passengers should be very costly to the airline, which imho compensation should be much higher and it should be up to the airline to proof it was a purely safety related measure. However this should always be discussed after the flight and not onboard the airplane, there the order of the crew should be followed without questioning.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:20 pm

Since, as it often happens these days, a critical item was the video, will there be from now on any restriction on videos taken on board?
 
Olddog
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate.


No the question is: are airline workers still able to use their brains.
Last edited by Olddog on Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
pygmalion
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:29 pm

seahawk wrote:
However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate, Where will this end? Sometimes the weather changes and you need to remove passengers after boarding, as you need extra fuel for a possible diversion, who would believe you and what do you do if the passengers refuse to leave? Cancel the whole flight? Overbooking and gaining other economic advantages from removing passengers should be very costly to the airline, which imho compensation should be much higher and it should be up to the airline to proof it was a purely safety related measure. However this should always be discussed after the flight and not onboard the airplane, there the order of the crew should be followed without questioning.


A gate agent is not Air Crew. A gate agents "order" is not backed up by federal law.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:31 pm

pygmalion wrote:
seahawk wrote:
However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate, Where will this end? Sometimes the weather changes and you need to remove passengers after boarding, as you need extra fuel for a possible diversion, who would believe you and what do you do if the passengers refuse to leave? Cancel the whole flight? Overbooking and gaining other economic advantages from removing passengers should be very costly to the airline, which imho compensation should be much higher and it should be up to the airline to proof it was a purely safety related measure. However this should always be discussed after the flight and not onboard the airplane, there the order of the crew should be followed without questioning.


A gate agent is not Air Crew. A gate agents "order" is not backed up by federal law.


In the aircraft he has no authority, so I am sure the crew asked the passenger to leave.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Posts: 1539
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:42 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
jfidler wrote:
wingman wrote:
If UA can't catch this overbook prior to departure and select passengers beforehand by bidding up the compensation then their four employees should drive to Louisville.


I agree they should have caught this before boarding in this case, but what about in cases when they can't? I was on a RJ years ago, and only after we all boarded did they determine we were over the weight limit. Some people volunteered (and received compensation) so we were fine, but what if no one did?


That's a different situation. In your case it dealt with safety. In this case safety was not a concern. So the CoC stipulations would allow him to stay since he was seated and was only asked to leave because they wanted a UA employee in his seat.

OK to remove someone for safety or if they are considered a threat. Obviously he was neither.
 
M564038
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:49 pm

seahawk wrote:
However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate, Where will this end? Sometimes the weather changes and you need to remove passengers after boarding, as you need extra fuel for a possible diversion, who would believe you and what do you do if the passengers refuse to leave? Cancel the whole flight? Overbooking and gaining other economic advantages from removing passengers should be very costly to the airline, which imho compensation should be much higher and it should be up to the airline to proof it was a purely safety related measure. However this should always be discussed after the flight and not onboard the airplane, there the order of the crew should be followed without questioning.


It ends right there.
You have a right to resist authority if the one who is acting on behalf of authority is in the wrong. That is a basic human right.
Of course you better be sure you are reasonably right, and if you put yourself against authority with lethal weapons on a power trip you risk being dead for trying. But you have a right to do it. It's the whole basis of having societies based on courts and law and not being dictatorial, martial law, police states.
This goes for anyone in uniform, don't go on a powertrip against someone that is right.

Someone of a different opinion than you, or simply protecting their right or investment in a ticket, is not a safety or security threat for wanting to exercise that right. Being in disagreement is not a safety issue by it self.

A certain percentage of people seem to have a real difficulty getting their heads around this.
A LEO's authority is based on LAW ENFORCEMENT not on wearing a uniform.
The second you aren't enforcing the law, but breaking it, demanding unreasonable actions, or in the wrong they no longer possess that authority.

As a matter of fact, in this country, which aren't the US, but I'm sure you have to have some of the same mechanisms, I can arrest a police officer or any other person just as much as a police officer can arrest me if I personaly witness wrongdoing.
That action, either way, is then subject to a legal process from a different authority than the arresting party before there can be a release, or someone can be kept for a prolonged time. Failure to do that would be a crime.

What the police can do, which I can't, is act on behalf of courts, the IRS, the state etc. That is exlusively for the police, and they also have extensive training that gives them a wider range of power and a bit more slack such as demanding ID(license, registration etc.)

They do not have the authority "to be right" whatever they say. It's not a crime to laugh in the face of a police officer who demands unreasonable actions. Unless they are enforcing a legal matter according to the law, they are just like anyone else.
Uniform or no uniform.

I guess americans never had to live in a dictatorship and fight for their right to civil resistance against illegal authority. The closest you seem to have is the Rosa Parks story, and it is 100% applicable in this case.
 
User avatar
JannEejit
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:05 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Reading this thread, i got the feeling that airlines workers have been brainwashed and think that acting like total bully, as they are always right, is the way to go....


I actually think you are right. It certainly comes across as a big chunk of the "what's wrong with air travel today" equation. Rude, abrasive staff, who are either not educated and trained well enough, don't give a damn about the customer (=human beings) and are not empowered with any positive creative-thinking and acting techniques. Empathy used to be taught as one of the core values of customer care years ago.....


It's a sea change in attitude that (IMHO) has grown since the aftermath of 9/11. I've experienced it myself on flights, a tangible sense of 'we're in charge, we'll kick you off, you can't touch us' amongst (I stress) a minority of airline staff. I can recall being scolded by a BA cabin crew member for having the audacity to glance out the window at a passing 767 during the pre-flight safety demo. Not a polite request to pay attention, I might add.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 1065
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:08 pm

However the question is, if it is a good idea to make crew orders open to debate, Where will this end?


This gets cured by spelling out what the crew and gate agents can and cannot do in plain English in the Contract of Carriage.

"We need to remove you."

"I don't want to leave."

"Right here, in Paragraph 4, it explains in detail why we can."

That may be a bit simplistic, but it's direct and to the point. In Dr. Dao's case, the CoC most definitely DID NOT say that he couldn't be removed. If there's an overweight issue, then as long as that's in the CoC, then they could presumably do it.

Here's the thing: airlines employ small armies of lawyers. It doesn't take much effort to write up a reasonable, understandable ten point CoC, or thereabouts, that the average person could understand, both passenger and gate agent alike. And, as I said in an earlier post, a smile and a thank you will generally get you what you want. Toss in sufficient compensation and the airlines will get volunteers. If they don't, then they aren't trying hard enough and that's on them.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos