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GlenP
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:18 pm

According to the Q&A article, linked to by Cubsrule, above, they didn't have the authority to remove the passenger from the aircraft and should have awaited the arrival of proper police officers.

Hence the fact that all 3 are currently, "on leave," whilst there's an investigation into their having broken SOPs.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
Bald1983
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:20 pm

dlphoenix wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
SamYeager2016 wrote:
Excluding the garbage reasoning that "if you're told to leave and you don't you're now a trespasser and a safety risk" that some um.. misguided posters are still trying to push just how many non safety or security risk booked, paid, boarded and seated people actually need to be removed in a normal year?


Your question is gibberish. It is real simple: The contract of carriage gives the airline the right to remove passengers. If they are wrong, legal redress may be had. At that point the not so good doctor was a trespasser. Additionally, anytime a passenger is non-compliant with the flight or cabin crew, they are a safety risk and need to be removed. I believe the not so good doctor will get something maybe a lot. It will be, however, a calculation of the PR of the company, not because the man's legal rights were violated.


I hope that you are just teasing us.
And I certainly hope that Dr Dao will insist that as part of the settlement UA will admit wrongdoing.


Strange world where stating facts is teasing...
 
NorthTerminal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:31 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
Strange world where stating facts is teasing...


I'm not sure you can represent your opinion as fact. The CoC does not make it clear that it was possible to remove the passenger under such circumstances, and as I and many have stated, you cannot simply decide that someone is a safety issue if there is no aggravating factor to make them one.

What if the man was told to get off because we don't like your face. Would he then be a safety issue for refusing?
 
sharktail
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:53 pm

727LOVER wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Yeah...you're talking about me right there. This guy deserves NOTHING.......Allow me to spell that N-O-T-H-I-N-G

"Just kill me, just kill me...just kill me"....yeah, that's a loon

What an asinine thing to say, 727LOVER. I'd love to see how coherent you would be immediately after you regain consciousness from a knock that gives you a concussion, a broken nose, broken teeth, and injuries to your sinus cavities.



Fair point....but I would have NEVER been in that situation, because I would have complied. What do you THINK is going to happen when you resist police?


Could be. But it doesn't matter. It is the stupidest thing done by any company in the US. Ever.This is the new low bar.

First, you beat up one of your customers for being a customer. Yes, the law is on the side of the airline. It doesn't make it right.

And then the CEO calls beating up a customer for wanting to "reaccommodating a customer".

Those are the only 2 pieces of information that matter. And it will change the airline industry and United forever.

I can tell you that I was flying on American this week and I looked at flight attendants and gate agents as people to defend myself from rather than people trying to help me. And I saw most others were (subconsciously) a lot more adversarial than usual as well.

Airlines are similar to the DMV for most people now. A necessary evil that everyone hates.
 
NorthTerminal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:03 pm

sharktail wrote:
Yes, the law is on the side of the airline.


Why do people keep saying this?

This article is putting two legal experts in aviation law on record as saying that United had no legal right. I agree, it needs to be tested in court, but I still don't understand why there are still people posting that UA had the law on their side, which is afr from clear IMO.

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-Airlines-right-is-wrong-for-passengers-.html
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:10 pm

neutrino wrote:
Its getting more complicated. According to the two links below, it looks this United Dr David Dao is the same as the Dr David Dao with a record after all. If so, he has paid his dues and has been re-instated. Please read the articles if you want to know more and form your own conclusions. It might not be the final word yet. Whatever, let me say it once again that his past doesn't has anything to do with the present case. Let it go!

https://www.romper.com/p/are-david-anh- ... sion-50667
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-uni ... story.html

A quote from the first one: "Digging into a victim's legal history is both problematic and risky. Though it's a reporter's job to be diligent, the breakneck speed of breaking news forces many to become sloppy in their work."

I agree that his past doesn't have anything to do with his present case, and I found this nugget in the 2nd article particularly troubling:
"...the newspaper had first confirmed Dao’s name with “two people with some knowledge of the passenger manifest” from the United flight."

This suggests that someone within United verified his identity to a newspaper. Are companies allowed to share your info to the media (presumably without your consent) in a case like this? What this says to me is that United may not have started the victim smearing game, but United certainly enabled it. Troubling if true.
 
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neutrino
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:33 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
Why do people keep saying this?

Because they are clueless parrots.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
NorthTerminal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:35 pm

neutrino wrote:
Because they are clueless parrots.


Must be Norwegian Blue's ;-)
 
Planetalk
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:55 pm

727LOVER wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Yeah...you're talking about me right there. This guy deserves NOTHING.......Allow me to spell that N-O-T-H-I-N-G

"Just kill me, just kill me...just kill me"....yeah, that's a loon

What an asinine thing to say, 727LOVER. I'd love to see how coherent you would be immediately after you regain consciousness from a knock that gives you a concussion, a broken nose, broken teeth, and injuries to your sinus cavities.



Fair point....but I would have NEVER been in that situation, because I would have complied. What do you THINK is going to happen when you resist police?


I get the impression some here would be very useful members of society in a dictatorship. Follow orders, never question authority however ridiculous, just do as you're told. Would you really just get up and walk off without being given a reason, or if told it was only because they had someone more important they wanted to put on. You'd just accept that? When flight attendants start threatening passengers with handcuffs to correct their company's screw ups something has gone very very wrong in the business, and frankly, society. I'd expect that in a police state.
 
wingman
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:04 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Fair point....but I would have NEVER been in that situation, because I would have complied. What do you THINK is going to happen when you resist police?


Sometimes when you resist police, and the government, and even a corporation that needs to fix its customer treatment policies..you start something big. Just look at your tagline. Wouldn't you agree that MLK and his people were tired of "complying"? And rightfully so.

What UA and its security buffoons did to Dr. Dao was an abomination and now they will pay the price. The days when a power mad, half insane FA thinks he or she can have you arrested for not siting up straight, bend over fast enough or obey every single command they think they have the right to force you to comply with..those days might be over chief. And it's about goddamned time.

More and more it's looking like Dr. Dao might have been issued an illegal command to vacate his seat. So where people like yourself are more than happy to go through life on bended knee and tail between their knees, some people just say "no". I for one am pretty damn glad your tagline hero was one of them.
 
blrsea
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:23 pm

wingman wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Fair point....but I would have NEVER been in that situation, because I would have complied. What do you THINK is going to happen when you resist police?


Sometimes when you resist police, and the government, and even a corporation that needs to fix its customer treatment policies..you start something big. Just look at your tagline. Wouldn't you agree that MLK and his people were tired of "complying"? And rightfully so.

What UA and its security buffoons did to Dr. Dao was an abomination and now they will pay the price. The days when a power mad, half insane FA thinks he or she can have you arrested for not siting up straight, bend over fast enough or obey every single command they think they have the right to force you to comply with..those days might be over chief. And it's about goddamned time.

More and more it's looking like Dr. Dao might have been issued an illegal command to vacate his seat. So where people like yourself are more than happy to go through life on bended knee and tail between their knees, some people just say "no". I for one am pretty damn glad your tagline hero was one of them.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

At the very least, it will probably force UA to change its policies, and they might start paying passengers more fairly to give up their seats voluntarily, instead of clumsy attempts at stealing it for their own crew or their higher priority passengers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:18 pm

To me the key issue has become the overreach of power that has been granted unchecked to the airlines and crew to essentially classify anyone as a threat for what are really only customer service issue. When someone is complaining of being cold and wanting a blanket they are not threat to a flight. That is a customer service opportunity that the crew can be empowered to handle. When someone does not want to be forced to leave their seat after having paid for it, and/or also boarded and seated, that is not a crime. That is a customer service.

I understand the operational issues, I understand the need for "safety of flight" etc. (when you are in flight and a passenger is attacking others or crew, law enforcement is nowhere nearby, yes absolutely divert, land, and get the person off) but it has been taken to far in some (many?) cases. Again, customer service issues should not be escalated to "not following crew orders", it should be handled like millions of other businesses do to take care of a customer, calm the situation and get them on their way.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
texdravid
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Isn't this telling that first tier airlines around the world do not have this type of PR problem?

It is high time that the culture of US Airlines change, and change immediately. Everyone is sick and tired of the brutal and dehumanizing treatment and attitude of cabin crew aboard US airlines.
They are unfriendly, lazy, and do not in the least try to even pretend to care about customer satisfaction.

All they care about is clocking their monthly hours, and their seniority scale ensures that only the most old and decrepit and disgruntled ones end up on long-haul flights.

I don't care one whit how their pay is, how their benefits are, or their hours. There are millions of regular workers in customer service jobs that have worse conditions than air crew, and they don't have the same vulgar attitude that air crews have.

Get with it, or else the government will. And you air crew fan boys won't like it at all once the government sticks it to you. I hope they do.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:18 pm

texdravid wrote:
Isn't this telling that first tier airlines around the world do not have this type of PR problem?

It is high time that the culture of US Airlines change, and change immediately. Everyone is sick and tired of the brutal and dehumanizing treatment and attitude of cabin crew aboard US airlines.
They are unfriendly, lazy, and do not in the least try to even pretend to care about customer satisfaction.

All they care about is clocking their monthly hours, and their seniority scale ensures that only the most old and decrepit and disgruntled ones end up on long-haul flights.

I don't care one whit how their pay is, how their benefits are, or their hours. There are millions of regular workers in customer service jobs that have worse conditions than air crew, and they don't have the same vulgar attitude that air crews have.

Get with it, or else the government will. And you air crew fan boys won't like it at all once the government sticks it to you. I hope they do.


In the USA it is a top-down problem arising from policy and bottom-line thinking.

It really is unfair to place the blame, or even most of it, on the front-line, customer-facing gate and cabin crew.

When Mr. Muñoz made his "mea culpa" during the TV interview it was perfectly evident that his heart was not yet totally in the "we are to blame for this" column. He is being forced by pragmatism to adopt new thought processes.....forced.....and no one likes being forced to do things.

He is learning what Messrs. Sears and Roebuck knew so many years ago. The customer comes first.

Some day perhaps, the many airline apologists on a.net will learn this lesson also. Airlines can deny or revoke boarding (and use force) only under very limited conditions.

Conditions of Carriage claiming the right to do almost anything to customers will soon be a thing of the past.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:34 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
United are now unleashing scorpions upon their passengers :-o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39599859

I think the media may well have reached the bottom of the barrel!


The scorpion story...is it true? It appears to be, and UA is fair game on the news. When I fly, probably the last thing I expect to happen is to have a scorpion fall out of the overheads. You can't blame the media for the level of ineptness showby by United lately.
 
ubeema
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:50 pm

bob75013 wrote:
It was reported on NBC's Today Show this morning that the the LEO's that dragged the Dr off the plane were in fact NOT LEOs, but in fact were security employees. It was also reported that back in January the security employees were told to stop wearing jackeds identifying them as Police. They were wearing the jackets when they boarded the plane. The report ended with a video of yesterday's Chicago City Council meeting in which an alderman lamented the millions of dollars the city will have to pay as a result of the actions of the three.


I saw that too. Perhaps the city may have a legal claim against United (especially if the city could prove their personnel were not properly informed by UA) or vice versa (UA sues the City of Chicago for assaulting their customers). My guess is nothing is off the table. Should be entertaining. If we compare this to another large corporation like GM which admitted responsibility for causing 100+ fatalities due to faulty ignition, United brand is definitely tarnished. UA 3411 showed a systemic issue with their policies and now the entire industry will have to change its posture on overbooking.
 
NorthTerminal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:51 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
The scorpion story...is it true? It appears to be, and UA is fair game on the news. When I fly, probably the last thing I expect to happen is to have a scorpion fall out of the overheads. You can't blame the media for the level of ineptness showby by United lately.


Scorpion climbs into someone's hand baggage and decides to wander when after the bag is placed in the overhead locker and eventually drops out and onto some poor souls head. I would say this unfortunate incident is a little beyond the carriers control, but don't let me stop you if you want to keep bashing UA, you are right, they are getting their just desserts.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:56 pm

Olddog wrote:
I still have some things to learn about this issue:
1) Was the Gate agent aware that he had to keep 4 seats for the deadheading crew before the boarding process started, and if yes he just forgot ?
2) Or he knew but theses 4 crew members came so late that he was thinking they were not coming ?


We can only hope the full report promised by the UA CEO by the end of this month will be made public, so that we can see what they say happened.

Promises, Promises . . . :scratchchin:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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GlenP
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:57 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
TransGlobalGold wrote:
The scorpion story...is it true? It appears to be, and UA is fair game on the news. When I fly, probably the last thing I expect to happen is to have a scorpion fall out of the overheads. You can't blame the media for the level of ineptness showby by United lately.


Scorpion climbs into someone's hand baggage and decides to wander when after the bag is placed in the overhead locker and eventually drops out and onto some poor souls head. I would say this unfortunate incident is a little beyond the carriers control, but don't let me stop you if you want to keep bashing UA, you are right, they are getting their just desserts.



Nah, it's a new SOP.

Put scorpions in a remotely opened container, within the overhead bins.

Once all PAX boarded, press the button and release scorpions.

Scorpions fall out of bins onto unsuspecting PAX.

As PAX jump from seats to avoid scorpions, slip dead-heading crew into the now vacant seat & disembark the displaced PAX.

Saves all that mucking around offering compo and calling the cops to drag people kicking and screaming off the aircraft. :)

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
NorthTerminal
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:04 pm

GlenP wrote:
Sorry, couldn't resist.


I suppose somebody had to :D
 
mantistobogn
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:13 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
sharktail wrote:
Yes, the law is on the side of the airline.


Why do people keep saying this?

This article is putting two legal experts in aviation law on record as saying that United had no legal right. I agree, it needs to be tested in court, but I still don't understand why there are still people posting that UA had the law on their side, which is afr from clear IMO.

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-Airlines-right-is-wrong-for-passengers-.html


The law was not on the side of United in this circumstance but the post 9/11 airline industry has become a culture of comply or you will be labeled a flight risk, no matter what the circumstance. That heavy handed culture is what got them in this mess to begin with.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:14 pm

wingman wrote:
What UA and its security buffoons did to Dr. Dao was an abomination and now they will pay the price.


Were the Security men employed by UA???
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:50 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
In the USA it is a top-down problem arising from policy and bottom-line thinking.

It really is unfair to place the blame, or even most of it, on the front-line, customer-facing gate and cabin crew.

This is absolutely true. The front line crew need to be given the proper tools and information regarding what they can and can't do and then allowed to use effective tools (such as higher compensation offers) to manage the customers that have issues.

Service is a huge part of the airline's business model and almost all crew understand that and use their abilities effectively. But when they are required to do something or face consequences... ("seat this DH crew or else") you figure out how to fit that round peg into a square hole. And that is unfair in many ways. It will require some changing of the mind set, to move away from the "do as I say or else" that originated from the fear of what happened that Tuesday many September's ago. Everybody became a potential threat, and when you are given a hammer you will start looking for nails. But it does need to change.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:14 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
NorthTerminal wrote:
United are now unleashing scorpions upon their passengers :-o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39599859

I think the media may well have reached the bottom of the barrel!


The scorpion story...is it true? It appears to be, and UA is fair game on the news. When I fly, probably the last thing I expect to happen is to have a scorpion fall out of the overheads. You can't blame the media for the level of ineptness showby by United lately.

It is true, yes. I heard the man being interviewed on the radio. While the scorpion is hardly the direct fault of UA, they can still count themselves fortunate that the nice Canadian gentlemen is not pressing charges. After being stung on his thumb, no less. :eek:
 
Wags69
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:19 pm

The best solution is to ban the use of worthless vouchers as compensation and be cash only. Also compensate with cash, say $100-$200 for every hour the passenger is on the ground.
That would eliminate most problems.
 
ytz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:11 pm

727LOVER wrote:
What do you THINK is going to happen when you resist police?


I certainly would not expect a concussion, two front teeth missing and a broken nose. The police have an obligation to use reasonable force. And reasonable means proportional to the threat faced by the police officers and bystanders. Dr. Dao was not in any way, shape or form a physical threat to the police officers or any other passenger. There is no judge who is going to consider this reasonable. That's why those three police officers are on administrative leave. And why City Council is pissed at the PD.

And that's all aside from the fact that you have every right to refuse an instruction from the police you consider unlawful. It is up to them to provide proof that your action is unlawful and that they have just grounds for their demand. Let me ask you. If the police showed up at your house and demanded to search it, out of the blue. Would you let them in or tell them to screw off until they have a warrant?

I am in the Air Force and I don't understand people who think authority figures acting outside their authorities should be given any time of day. Your lot sound like they would enjoy living in North Korea more than the USA.

I hope those three police officers lose their jobs. Incompetence needs to be punished. And I am happy knowing they'll face personal liability in court from Dr. Dao's lawyer.
 
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GlenP
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:22 pm

ytz wrote:
727LOVER wrote:


I am in the Air Force and I don't understand people who think authority figures acting outside their authorities should be given any time of day. Your lot sound like they would enjoy living in North Korea more than the USA.
.


Yep, Neither Queen's Rules & Reg's not the Book of Military Law require that you obey an illegal order.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
bob75013
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:44 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

"It was reported" does not really help me find a source, but perhaps you are conflating the private security guards - who are not LEOs - with CDOA security, who are.

The point of the story is that they were private security guards, and not CODA LEOs


No, they were CDOA. There's a good Q&A on CDOA security here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-u ... story.html Note the Q&A where the CDOA spokesperson acknowledges that the officers involved were CDOA.


While being CODA employees, it appears that they were not police

----------------------------------
"The officers -- who are unarmed and meant to back up local law enforcement -- were called by airline employees after the passenger, David Dao, refused to give up his seat for crew that needed to be repositioned for other flights. ...

But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls. (note they are called airport security officers not airport police) ...

"For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded," the union said.

The airport security officers, while required to meet minimum police standards and go through academy training, are not in fact police "


https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-airp ... 48561.html






. "
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:02 pm

Wags69 wrote:
The best solution is to ban the use of worthless vouchers as compensation and be cash only. Also compensate with cash, say $100-$200 for every hour the passenger is on the ground.
That would eliminate most problems.


Out of 660,000,000 passengers in the US in 2016, .000061 of a percent faced involuntary denied boarding. The airlines have minimized the occurrence to the point that it literally almost never happens. I have no problem with your idea, but perhaps doing what DL did today and just raise the cash ceiling for IDBs and let the chips fall where they may each flight would be best. In the rare instance where someone needs to be IDB'd (rare, as in, very infrequently) and the customers refuse for the max amount, cancel the flight, deboard everyone, and roll everyone over to the next flight available OR call and get permission to up it. I seriously doubt we'll have a passenger coup where everyone agrees to hold out for the highest possible amount - the guy who organizes such a thing will be the one who jumps first. :-)

Anyhow, at DL's max, even if every IDB passenger in the country were give the max cash amount, that'd be about $400,000,000. That'd be about a 5% or so hit on their actual net profit, or conversely, a net increase on ticket prices of 5%. Not the end of the world, and it would likely be lower.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:06 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
He is learning what Messrs. Sears and Roebuck knew so many years ago. The customer comes first.

NZ used to have a great tyre retailer with the same philosophy. Rule 1 - The customer is always right. Rule 2 - If in doubt, re-read rule 1.

Unfortunately they were acquired by an international manufacturer, and the mantra quickly became history.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:08 pm

wingman wrote:
What UA and its security buffoons did to Dr. Dao was an abomination and now they will pay the price.


In acknowledging that UA called for security to escort Dr. Dao off the plane when he wouldn't leave, thus causing this whole mess, can we also at least acknowledge that UA did not physically harm Dr. Dao? Does anyone really think they expected him to be roughed up? I'm assuming that they have done this before and the person always left peacefully-ish.

The ONLY reason I say this is that I think we need to characterize this whole thing in an intellectually honest way. Now, if you honestly believe UA expected or desired this outcome (versus caused it by calling the police), then certainly I respect your point of view. I think UA was stupid and irresponsible, but I don't think they had any intention or desire to see this guy - or anyone - roughed up. It just showed what a bad idea it was to even bring law enforcement into it.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:13 pm

texdravid wrote:
Everyone is sick and tired of the brutal and dehumanizing treatment and attitude of cabin crew aboard US airlines.
They are unfriendly, lazy, and do not in the least try to even pretend to care about customer satisfaction.


I think you are being unfair, but maybe you either have really bad luck or have really high expectations. I'm not a frequent flyer, but out of the many dozens of flights I've taken, I can probably count on one hand with fingers to spare the number of times I've been angry or upset about the service for some reason. The vast majority of the time they seem to at least try to do their best given the huge number of people being handled, the expectations placed on them by their employer, the government, and the customer, and the fact that it isn't a desk job - they are up and about for much of their day working to help take care of the passengers.

Dehumanizing? Brutal? With over 400,000 people directly employed by the industry, there are going to be problems at times. We can address those without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:15 pm

aerolimani wrote:
While the scorpion is hardly the direct fault of UA, they can still count themselves fortunate that the nice Canadian gentlemen is not pressing charges. After being stung on his thumb, no less. :eek:


Pressing charges for what? The idiot pulled it out of his hair - without getting stung - and placed it on a plate. Someone told him it was a scorpion - and he picked the damn thing back up and THEN got stung.

At some point, idiots don't deserve to win the lottery. They deserve to get stung.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:22 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
In acknowledging that UA called for security to escort Dr. Dao off the plane when he wouldn't leave, thus causing this whole mess, can we also at least acknowledge that UA did not physically harm Dr. Dao? Does anyone really think they expected him to be roughed up? I'm assuming that they have done this before and the person always left peacefully-ish.

The ONLY reason I say this is that I think we need to characterize this whole thing in an intellectually honest way. Now, if you honestly believe UA expected or desired this outcome (versus caused it by calling the police), then certainly I respect your point of view. I think UA was stupid and irresponsible, but I don't think they had any intention or desire to see this guy - or anyone - roughed up. It just showed what a bad idea it was to even bring law enforcement into it.


While I am quite sure that Dr Dao getting roughed up was an unintended consequence, the principle of cause and effect means that UA most likely will (and should) share responsibility for their terrible policy and/or procedures, and the poor judgement of the staff that called in the heavy mob.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:28 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
wingman wrote:
What UA and its security buffoons did to Dr. Dao was an abomination and now they will pay the price.


In acknowledging that UA called for security to escort Dr. Dao off the plane when he wouldn't leave, thus causing this whole mess, can we also at least acknowledge that UA did not physically harm Dr. Dao? Does anyone really think they expected him to be roughed up? I'm assuming that they have done this before and the person always left peacefully-ish.

The ONLY reason I say this is that I think we need to characterize this whole thing in an intellectually honest way. Now, if you honestly believe UA expected or desired this outcome (versus caused it by calling the police), then certainly I respect your point of view. I think UA was stupid and irresponsible, but I don't think they had any intention or desire to see this guy - or anyone - roughed up. It just showed what a bad idea it was to even bring law enforcement into it.


Let us see, UA is so used to passengers obeying unlawful orders, that they never imagined what could happen if they called in the thugs, aka police, to remove the passenger and the passenger would say no to the thugs.
The passenger had already said no to the airline staff, how many brain cells does it need to realise that he could keep on saying no?
 
Braniff1
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:28 pm

It appears that 727lover should take his act where most 727s are these days. Mohave awaits you sir.
 
transswede
Posts: 1008
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:38 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
"...the newspaper had first confirmed Dao’s name with “two people with some knowledge of the passenger manifest” from the United flight."

This suggests that someone within United verified his identity to a newspaper. Are companies allowed to share your info to the media (presumably without your consent) in a case like this? What this says to me is that United may not have started the victim smearing game, but United certainly enabled it. Troubling if true.


Yes... United employees need to think REAL HARD about what they are doing. Spreading personal information to discredit someone with a complaint against United. This type of behavior can have serious legal consequences for both the employee and UNited.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:40 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
While the scorpion is hardly the direct fault of UA, they can still count themselves fortunate that the nice Canadian gentlemen is not pressing charges. After being stung on his thumb, no less. :eek:


Pressing charges for what? The idiot pulled it out of his hair - without getting stung - and placed it on a plate. Someone told him it was a scorpion - and he picked the damn thing back up and THEN got stung.

At some point, idiots don't deserve to win the lottery. They deserve to get stung.


I've taken that flight (and it's Air Canada equivalent).
It's long and boring. Because the planes leave the continental US, you cannot rely having Direct TV or IFE.

Nice to have *something* to spice up the four hour journey.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2203
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:49 pm

In part, we can blame 9/11 for this, because that's when the mantra "don't argue with aircrew, under any circumstances" became enshrined. Unfortunately that mantra has now been extrapolated by cabin crew to mean "we can treat you how like, no matter unprofessional and unethical we choose to be in the first place". It is telling that the CEO's first reaction was to try and play "the passenger was being obstructive and belligerent" card, and he came unstuck big time on that one.

This episode is indicative of a company that is sick from the ground up. And this is the one that made the news - how many times a day do similar, if not quite as dramatic episodes occur that go unreported? I only fly UA once a year or so, but I won't be anymore anytime soon.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14724
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The point of the story is that they were private security guards, and not CODA LEOs


No, they were CDOA. There's a good Q&A on CDOA security here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-u ... story.html Note the Q&A where the CDOA spokesperson acknowledges that the officers involved were CDOA.


While being CODA employees, it appears that they were not police

----------------------------------
"The officers -- who are unarmed and meant to back up local law enforcement -- were called by airline employees after the passenger, David Dao, refused to give up his seat for crew that needed to be repositioned for other flights. ...

But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls. (note they are called airport security officers not airport police) ...

"For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded," the union said.

The airport security officers, while required to meet minimum police standards and go through academy training, are not in fact police "


They are POST-trained LEOs. They are not members of the Chicago Police Department.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bob75013
Posts: 1023
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

No, they were CDOA. There's a good Q&A on CDOA security here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-u ... story.html Note the Q&A where the CDOA spokesperson acknowledges that the officers involved were CDOA.


While being CODA employees, it appears that they were not police

----------------------------------
"The officers -- who are unarmed and meant to back up local law enforcement -- were called by airline employees after the passenger, David Dao, refused to give up his seat for crew that needed to be repositioned for other flights. ...

But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls. (note they are called airport security officers not airport police) ...

"For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded," the union said.

The airport security officers, while required to meet minimum police standards and go through academy training, are not in fact police "


They are POST-trained LEOs. They are not members of the Chicago Police Department.


They are not members of ANY police force. The article put it clearly "They are NOT police."
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14724
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

While being CODA employees, it appears that they were not police

----------------------------------
"The officers -- who are unarmed and meant to back up local law enforcement -- were called by airline employees after the passenger, David Dao, refused to give up his seat for crew that needed to be repositioned for other flights. ...

But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls. (note they are called airport security officers not airport police) ...

"For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded," the union said.

The airport security officers, while required to meet minimum police standards and go through academy training, are not in fact police "


They are POST-trained LEOs. They are not members of the Chicago Police Department.


They are not members of ANY police force. The article put it clearly "They are NOT police."


You've confused me. Earlier, you argued that they were not LEOs. That's not correct. Not, you are arguing that they are not police. That is correct.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:08 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
While I am quite sure that Dr Dao getting roughed up was an unintended consequence, the principle of cause and effect means that UA most likely will (and should) share responsibility for their terrible policy and/or procedures, and the poor judgement of the staff that called in the heavy mob.


Yes of course UA is responsible. I'm just saying that UA didn't rough him up.

mjoelnir wrote:
The passenger had already said no to the airline staff, how many brain cells does it need to realise that he could keep on saying no?


Ok, fine. So it's your opinion that UA either knew he'd get roughed up or intended for it to happen. It was not an unexpected outcome. Got it.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Yes of course UA is responsible. I'm just saying that UA didn't rough him up.


So, they didn't rough him up, but are responsible for him being roughed up. Glad we have that sorted. :D
 
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neutrino
Posts: 1536
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Gentlemen, hope this helps:
A law enforcement officer (LEO) is any individual who is sworn in as a police officer, sheriff deputy, state trooper, or a federal agent to enforce the laws of the jurisdiction he or she serves.
Some other careers that are considered LEO positions include:
Air Marshal
ATF Special Agent
Border Patrol Agent
Detective
FBI Special Agent
ICE Special Agent
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:16 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Yes of course UA is responsible. I'm just saying that UA didn't rough him up.


So, they didn't rough him up, but are responsible for him being roughed up. Glad we have that sorted. :D


Absolutely. I think it's time some people stop saying "United beat him up..." etc. They didn't touch him. They just instigated the whole thing, which obviously is a huge problem in itself.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:17 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Absolutely. I think it's time some people stop saying "United beat him up..." etc. They didn't touch him. They just instigated the whole thing, which obviously is a huge problem in itself.


You're right, it is a pretty important distinction and now I feel a little contrite for being facetious.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19451
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:21 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Absolutely. I think it's time some people stop saying "United beat him up..." etc. They didn't touch him. They just instigated the whole thing, which obviously is a huge problem in itself.


If I employ a thug to beat up a rival, in the eyes of the law I'm as guilty as the thug. The fact I didn't physically lay a hand on my rival means nothing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
If I employ a thug to beat up a rival, in the eyes of the law I'm as guilty as the thug. The fact I didn't physically lay a hand on my rival means nothing.


But if I employ an agent to perform a task and the agent gets carried away with the execution of said task, I will definitely have to share responsibility for the incident but I think the law may be a little more opaque on direct resposibility for the getting carried away part.

The fallout for this affair will be messy and the blame game will roll on for a while methinks.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8610
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:27 pm

I think Mr.Dimitri's press conference has significant impact. In a very soft tone he used two phrases, this act was violent and the apology was staged. One for CPD and another for UA. Don't let his pleasant demeanor and 99.999% positive talk fool you. Both CPD and UA are screwed, should run for hills.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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