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VC10er
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:44 pm

The "buck stops" on Mr Munoz' desk, no matter the details. UA was the company that subcontracted Republic, that alone means United needs to take full responsibility...which they have. It may have taken 3-4 days for Oscar to say and do the right thing, but I also think "better late, than never" too. I have been a part of MAJOR PR issues during the course of my 30 year career, although I am not in PR directly. In my experience, it takes humans a couple days to wrap their heads fully around a huge and complex and upsetting crisis...hysteria breaks out, emotions get in the way, initial shock takes a bit of time to wear off as the CEO is bombarded with a plethora of different and conflicting advice from lawyers, PR specialists and the all the other senior voices around him/her. ALL humans are deeply flawed creatures, including the smartest (sometimes even the nicest and well intended) CEO's. As are all the others in the room are panicking too. "Cooler heads do prevail", and sometimes that takes 48 to 72 hours for clear mindedness to emerge.
Oscar said this was a "watershed moment" and I agree, this will change a lot things in the industry far beyond United - it will be interesting to see what is said on the 30th.
(I realized I just used 4 over used expressions!)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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exunited
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:42 pm

DocLightning wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'


As are we. And as much as our industry has things to learn about safety from the aviation industry, the aviation industry could learn a thing or two about customer service from ours.

See, we're bound by oath to take excellent care of our patients. That includes the drunk and violent ones, the drunk (or mentally ill) and gropey ones, the angry ones, the stinky ones (we get a lot of those, and it's hard to take care of patients who stink), the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, and the unconscious ones. When someone is violent, of course we must use violent force to restrain them. We have hospital security and yet our first step is always to try to de-escalate a situation.

My patients are not always sweet and grateful and polite. But I am a professional and I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism. Do l like all my patients? Of course not! But they must never, ever know that. And of course, your most difficult patients never, ever no-show. But they come to me for a reason, and so we become great actors and actresses and we work around ridiculous government and hospital policies and we take care of the patients anyway because that's what we do.

We're not superhuman, we're just dedicated. Perhaps it's time that people working in the aviation industry adopted a similar culture.

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.


Sorry, but I get crappy customer service from medical "professionals" as does everyone else. Don't rag on airline employees as if patients don't wait endless hours in the waiting room to see someone and are not subjected to rude and surly nurses and staff. You picked the wrong industry to compare to airline customer service because the medical industry is as far from customer friendly as you purport the airline industry to be.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:41 pm

exunited wrote:
Sorry, but I get crappy customer service from medical "professionals" as does everyone else. Don't rag on airline employees as if patients don't wait endless hours in the waiting room to see someone and are not subjected to rude and surly nurses and staff. You picked the wrong industry to compare to airline customer service because the medical industry is as far from customer friendly as you purport the airline industry to be.


Then maybe you're at the wrong hospitals. We're not always polite to our patients (sometimes necessity overrides that), but we get the job done and we do it without violence or screaming in their faces.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Bald1983
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:37 am

DocLightning wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'


As are we. And as much as our industry has things to learn about safety from the aviation industry, the aviation industry could learn a thing or two about customer service from ours.

See, we're bound by oath to take excellent care of our patients. That includes the drunk and violent ones, the drunk (or mentally ill) and gropey ones, the angry ones, the stinky ones (we get a lot of those, and it's hard to take care of patients who stink), the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, and the unconscious ones. When someone is violent, of course we must use violent force to restrain them. We have hospital security and yet our first step is always to try to de-escalate a situation.

My patients are not always sweet and grateful and polite. But I am a professional and I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism. Do l like all my patients? Of course not! But they must never, ever know that. And of course, your most difficult patients never, ever no-show. But they come to me for a reason, and so we become great actors and actresses and we work around ridiculous government and hospital policies and we take care of the patients anyway because that's what we do.

We're not superhuman, we're just dedicated. Perhaps it's time that people working in the aviation industry adopted a similar culture.

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.


The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.
 
Bald1983
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:40 am

DocLightning wrote:
exunited wrote:
Sorry, but I get crappy customer service from medical "professionals" as does everyone else. Don't rag on airline employees as if patients don't wait endless hours in the waiting room to see someone and are not subjected to rude and surly nurses and staff. You picked the wrong industry to compare to airline customer service because the medical industry is as far from customer friendly as you purport the airline industry to be.


Then maybe you're at the wrong hospitals. We're not always polite to our patients (sometimes necessity overrides that), but we get the job done and we do it without violence or screaming in their faces.



And for that matter, the same can be said for airlines delivering its services to its customers. This is news because this is an exception. The good doctor had an obligation to deplane.
 
Bald1983
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:45 am

BobPatterson wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

IIRC this was discredited.

The person that you are talking about is a different individual with the same name but not this person.

No, it wasn't. It was called racist to bring it up, told to us by certain opinion outlets that even if true, his past should have no bearing on the incident etc. and some tried to immediately claim it was a different person.


I doubt my response to you will make a bit of difference as far as you are concerned. After reading many of your posts here I think you are beyond reasoning with.

However............

Whatever Dr. Dao did, it was in response to the illegal actions by the airline and their chosen enforcers (I won't dignify them by calling them cops).

A court, if this actually gets to court, will render judgement based on who did what, who violated laws, including civil rights laws.

Assuming that United had a contractual right to bump a passenger, and the passenger is refusing to deplane, are you saying that no force can be applied and that United, (Actually Republic) has to cede control of its aircraft to the passengers being the most hysterical? I agree that UAL will cough but only for PR reasons.

Dr. Dao was minding his own business when he was illegally set upon. His assailants will pay (probably by out-of-court settlement).

I can assure you that United Airlines doesn't want this event to go viral again because of open court hearings covered by every media outlet and social media blog.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:49 am

Bald1983 wrote:
And for that matter, the same can be said for airlines delivering its services to its customers. This is news because this is an exception. The good doctor had an obligation to deplane.


Actually, according to the contract of carriage, he did not. Mr. Muñoz has agreed that this is not the case and multiple noted legal scholars have agreed. I have yet to read a single legal rebuttal.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
alfa164
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:39 am

DocLightning wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'

As are we. And as much as our industry has things to learn about safety from the aviation industry, the aviation industry could learn a thing or two about customer service from ours.
See, we're bound by oath to take excellent care of our patients. That includes the drunk and violent ones, the drunk (or mentally ill) and gropey ones, the angry ones, the stinky ones (we get a lot of those, and it's hard to take care of patients who stink), the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, and the unconscious ones. When someone is violent, of course we must use violent force to restrain them. We have hospital security and yet our first step is always to try to de-escalate a situation.
My patients are not always sweet and grateful and polite. But I am a professional and I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism. Do l like all my patients? Of course not! But they must never, ever know that. And of course, your most difficult patients never, ever no-show. But they come to me for a reason, and so we become great actors and actresses and we work around ridiculous government and hospital policies and we take care of the patients anyway because that's what we do.
We're not superhuman, we're just dedicated. Perhaps it's time that people working in the aviation industry adopted a similar culture.
Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There are some businesses where "professionalism" is not just desirable, but is a necessity. Certainly, the practice of medicine is one, but the airline business - where almost everyone holds a heavy responsibility for the safety and good of their passengers - is another. It is time everybody in the business realized that.

VC10er wrote:
The "buck stops" on Mr Munoz' desk, no matter the details. UA was the company that subcontracted Republic, that alone means United needs to take full responsibility...which they have. It may have taken 3-4 days for Oscar to say and do the right thing, but I also think "better late, than never" too. I have been a part of MAJOR PR issues during the course of my 30 year career, although I am not in PR directly. In my experience, it takes humans a couple days to wrap their heads fully around a huge and complex and upsetting crisis...hysteria breaks out, emotions get in the way, initial shock takes a bit of time to wear off as the CEO is bombarded with a plethora of different and conflicting advice from lawyers, PR specialists and the all the other senior voices around him/her. ALL humans are deeply flawed creatures, including the smartest (sometimes even the nicest and well intended) CEO's. As are all the others in the room are panicking too. "Cooler heads do prevail", and sometimes that takes 48 to 72 hours for clear mindedness to emerge.
Oscar said this was a "watershed moment" and I agree, this will change a lot things in the industry far beyond United - it will be interesting to see what is said on the 30th.
(I realized I just used 4 over used expressions!)


I searched and searched for a UA commercial I remembered from many years back; I finally found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU2rpcAABbA

In this case, the shoe is on the other foot; Mr. Munoz would do well to listen to and pay heed to the attitude spoken by the "manager" in the ad. United needs to get back to its customers.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
2175301
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:57 am

Bald1983 wrote:
The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.



You actually have the expected legalities backwards in this possible case of civil dispute. Since the airline had seated him on the aircraft (and possession - in this case possession of a seat occupied via with authorization and by proper procedure) - the possessor of an "item" is considered to have the benefit of the doubt (the common saying is possession is 9/10th of the law); if there was a contract of carriage dispute at this stage (after being properly seated on the aircraft) it would legally be expected that the airline would transport the passenger on the flight; and then the airline could sue the passenger for damages.

This may come as a shock to some... But people actually have rights - in some cases such as this contract rights - that take precedence over the rights of an airline. No staff or crew member can negate those rights.

Have a great day,
 
speedbird52
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:07 am

Bald1983 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'


As are we. And as much as our industry has things to learn about safety from the aviation industry, the aviation industry could learn a thing or two about customer service from ours.

See, we're bound by oath to take excellent care of our patients. That includes the drunk and violent ones, the drunk (or mentally ill) and gropey ones, the angry ones, the stinky ones (we get a lot of those, and it's hard to take care of patients who stink), the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, and the unconscious ones. When someone is violent, of course we must use violent force to restrain them. We have hospital security and yet our first step is always to try to de-escalate a situation.

My patients are not always sweet and grateful and polite. But I am a professional and I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism. Do l like all my patients? Of course not! But they must never, ever know that. And of course, your most difficult patients never, ever no-show. But they come to me for a reason, and so we become great actors and actresses and we work around ridiculous government and hospital policies and we take care of the patients anyway because that's what we do.

We're not superhuman, we're just dedicated. Perhaps it's time that people working in the aviation industry adopted a similar culture.

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.


The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.

The difference here, is while the man disobeyed crew orders, he did not respond with violence. Banging his head on the seat was completely unnecessary and inexcusable: I can quite literally think of tens of other ways to remove him, including using force, that do not involve potentially causing permanent damage to the guy! But what should I expect? I was born and have lived in this country and with these people for a little while: I shouldn't expect anything other then a sadistic love for violence from Americans...
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:13 am

speedbird52 wrote:
But what should I expect? I have lived in this country and with these people for quite a while: I shouldn't expect anything other then a sadistic love for violence from Americans...


Wow. You've got 330 million people all figured out. Kudos.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
SATexan
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:32 am

ALTF4 wrote:

You may be surprised to learn that hotels do overbook rooms, and for various reasons, do "bump" guests. Oh, and you might also be surprised to learn, there are no federal protections against that. So, in fact, the airlines have something to learn from the hotels, from your slant!

The above is easily sourced from the internet.

For a more anecdotal view: my understanding is that Marriott or Hilton offer a 'perk' for top-tier elites that allow them a 24-hour notice room anywhere, anytime, even if the hotel is fully booked. I'm sure there are some caveats, but my understanding is, this can be used to 'bump' a poor chap from his room before said chap checks in at the hotel. Again, I don't have a source for this, other than a consultant I work with who lives on the road and was able to get a last-minute room in a full sell-out situation for some work I called him in for - he explained the perk when I was surprised he was able to make it. It may also be that hotels never truly "sell out" all rooms, and reserve a few for such people.


As someone very familiar with the hotel industry, I can almost certainly assure you that once a guest checks in to a room they are NEVER "bumped" by those holding elite status. For starters, once a guest checks in to a room, it is instantly rendered "dirty" for housekeeping purposes. Just imagine, if the guest that checked in had partied/smoked and shagged in the room. If you "bump" that guest for an elite, you will have to get the room cleaned while the elite waits around in the lobby. Keep in mind that MOST hotels don't have readily available housekeeping staff at nights. It is left to a manager and a front desk agent to get the room in order. Further, when you issue the marching order to the existing guest, you will have to give them a few minutes to get out of the room. I'll guarantee you 100% that they will trash the room completely before walking out and that make your housekeeping that much more difficult for the staff that doesn't specialize in that. This is a very time consuming and costly exercise while serving no significant purpose. This is precisely why no guest is ever bumped after checking in. It can happen before checking in but it is not very common at all. Some inventory is generally held back on most days. Now, guests can be thrown out for violating hotel rules or disorderly conduct or criminal conduct during the middle of the night. But no one else is checked in to that room until the following day. Also, keep in mind that the bare minimal hotel security staff does not masquerade as police and certainly does not take the law into their own hands. Any unruly behavior from the guests will be reported to the cops who will then do the law enforcement as necessary.
 
ALTF4
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:29 pm

SATexan wrote:
As someone very familiar with the hotel industry, I can almost certainly assure you that once a guest checks in to a room they are NEVER "bumped" by those holding elite status. For starters, once a guest checks in to a room, it is instantly rendered "dirty" for housekeeping purposes. Just imagine, if the guest that checked in had partied/smoked and shagged in the room. If you "bump" that guest for an elite, you will have to get the room cleaned while the elite waits around in the lobby. Keep in mind that MOST hotels don't have readily available housekeeping staff at nights. It is left to a manager and a front desk agent to get the room in order. Further, when you issue the marching order to the existing guest, you will have to give them a few minutes to get out of the room. I'll guarantee you 100% that they will trash the room completely before walking out and that make your housekeeping that much more difficult for the staff that doesn't specialize in that. This is a very time consuming and costly exercise while serving no significant purpose. This is precisely why no guest is ever bumped after checking in. It can happen before checking in but it is not very common at all. Some inventory is generally held back on most days. Now, guests can be thrown out for violating hotel rules or disorderly conduct or criminal conduct during the middle of the night. But no one else is checked in to that room until the following day. Also, keep in mind that the bare minimal hotel security staff does not masquerade as police and certainly does not take the law into their own hands. Any unruly behavior from the guests will be reported to the cops who will then do the law enforcement as necessary.


I never said anything about bumping from a room after you checked in. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
Bald1983
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:00 pm

2175301 wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.



You actually have the expected legalities backwards in this possible case of civil dispute. Since the airline had seated him on the aircraft (and possession - in this case possession of a seat occupied via with authorization and by proper procedure) - the possessor of an "item" is considered to have the benefit of the doubt (the common saying is possession is 9/10th of the law); if there was a contract of carriage dispute at this stage (after being properly seated on the aircraft) it would legally be expected that the airline would transport the passenger on the flight; and then the airline could sue the passenger for damages.

This may come as a shock to some... But people actually have rights - in some cases such as this contract rights - that take precedence over the rights of an airline. No staff or crew member can negate those rights.

Have a great day,


Have you read the contract? https://www.united.com/web/en-us/conten ... aspx#sec21 It is not your platitudes that would have decided this; it is the language of the contract. We do not have a "living breathing" contract of carriage anymore then we have a "living breathing" Constitution. Rule 21 C. seems to be the one that would apply. Arguably, having more people show up then calculated and having operational needs to transport flight crew may come under that rule, then again not. The good doctor may have had a claim if the rule did not apply. However, once he started acting up, other parts of the refusal to transport rule would kick in because his refusal to follow crew directives made him a safety risk. Anyway, before you argue about rights, read the contract. This is not about feelings.
 
M564038
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:31 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.



You actually have the expected legalities backwards in this possible case of civil dispute. Since the airline had seated him on the aircraft (and possession - in this case possession of a seat occupied via with authorization and by proper procedure) - the possessor of an "item" is considered to have the benefit of the doubt (the common saying is possession is 9/10th of the law); if there was a contract of carriage dispute at this stage (after being properly seated on the aircraft) it would legally be expected that the airline would transport the passenger on the flight; and then the airline could sue the passenger for damages.

This may come as a shock to some... But people actually have rights - in some cases such as this contract rights - that take precedence over the rights of an airline. No staff or crew member can negate those rights.

Have a great day,


Have you read the contract? https://www.united.com/web/en-us/conten ... aspx#sec21 It is not your platitudes that would have decided this; it is the language of the contract. We do not have a "living breathing" contract of carriage anymore then we have a "living breathing" Constitution. Rule 21 C. seems to be the one that would apply. Arguably, having more people show up then calculated and having operational needs to transport flight crew may come under that rule, then again not. The good doctor may have had a claim if the rule did not apply. However, once he started acting up, other parts of the refusal to transport rule would kick in because his refusal to follow crew directives made him a safety risk. Anyway, before you argue about rights, read the contract. This is not about feelings.

What you must get your head around, is that being in disagreement with crew over this and trying to excersise your legal right does not make you a safety risk. You are actually allowed to be in disagreement with people in uniform, however shocking this might be to you.
 
SATexan
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:47 pm

ALTF4 wrote:
I never said anything about bumping from a room after you checked in. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?


Correct me if I'm wrong. You were drawing a parallel to United's bumping policy by insisting that even hotels bump guests and that the guests don't have any federal protections against such incidents.

I merely stated that bumping of guests is not commonplace in the hotel industry for a lot of reasons.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:08 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
Have you read the contract? https://www.united.com/web/en-us/conten ... aspx#sec21 It is not your platitudes that would have decided this; it is the language of the contract. We do not have a "living breathing" contract of carriage anymore then we have a "living breathing" Constitution. Rule 21 C. seems to be the one that would apply. Arguably, having more people show up then calculated and having operational needs to transport flight crew may come under that rule, then again not. The good doctor may have had a claim if the rule did not apply. However, once he started acting up, other parts of the refusal to transport rule would kick in because his refusal to follow crew directives made him a safety risk. Anyway, before you argue about rights, read the contract. This is not about feelings.


Several times. So did two faculty of law at UChicago so did the dean of Cornell Law, so have several notable contract and travel attorneys. They all agree that the CoC offered UA no relief in this case because the passenger was boarded and seated in his seat. Passengers can only be disembarked if they are a safety risk (which he was not), if they are violent (which he was not) or if there is a safety problem with the flight being operated (which there was not).

Several people have tried to argue that the passenger is not boarded until the door is closed and the manifest signed off, but the contract does not so define boarding and any reasonable person (other than an airline executive) would argue that a passenger who has scanned his boarding pass and is seating in his assigned seat has boarded the aircraft.

The flight crew can also order me to do a strip tease and if I refuse the instruction I am not a safety risk nor am I in violation of the CoC because it is an illegal instruction. Passengers are required to follow *LEGAL* crew instructions, which this was not.

Now, if you have a link to a legal opinion written by an attorney (I've referenced these several other times in this thread and I am not going to go searching for the articles yet again) then post them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:31 pm

DocLightning wrote:

The flight crew can also order me to do a strip tease and if I refuse the instruction I am not a safety risk nor am I in violation of the CoC because it is an illegal instruction. Passengers are required to follow *LEGAL* crew instructions, which this was not.

Now, if you have a link to a legal opinion written by an attorney (I've referenced these several other times in this thread and I am not going to go searching for the articles yet again) then post them.


DL... there have been innumerable law enforcement extractions of passengers over time... I specifically remember my grandfather was threatened with that in the 80s because he wanted to use the bathroom while we were waiting for baggage to be loaded (but we had been ordered to sit to expedite boarding).

The legal interpretation you mention is a new construct that was developed in April 2017. I don't believe you can cite anything earlier to that effect.

About your professionalism / customer care post a while back, a couple thoughts. I think about this a lot because of what I witnessed in the industry, good and bad. Despite it all, their record of safety is great and they take it terribly seriously and personally. It is great that you take so much care with your patients. Doctors are sworn to take care of patients' health care needs above all. I would liken that to pilot, FA and mechanics' responsibility to make sure passengers survive the journey, ideally (but not necessarily) comfortably, on-time and with their bags. Like doctors, airline crews and maintenance are supposed to rely on uncompromised professional (such as it is) judgment, unclouded by money or expediency. The human body is more complex and unpredictable than flying a plane. It requires more training and maybe a more brilliant mind. But the notion of full absolute personal commitment to human life (above any job description or financial/logistical factors) is expected in both jobs.
 
guyanam
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:45 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
I . The junior senator from South Carolina is African American and a Republican. .


Whites no longer relevant? Take a look at the Supreme Court, at the Senate, or who are the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and who heads up major financial institutions. You demean yourself by screams that whites are under threat, or that an observation that white men are over represented in these positions is inaccurate. It will be a long time before "whites are under threat" and you put yourself in line with the Breitbart nutcases if you play that victim card.

The junior senator for South Carolina has himself spoken about implicit bias that he has suffered AS A SENATOR. Yes implicit bias as people make assumptions about others based on how they look, and given that he is the only dark skinned black senator

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/t ... ate-225507

Please learn something from this. Racism isn't merely about people OPENLY screaming hatred, or about laws discriminating based on race. It is about some one making an assumption of another based upon what they look like. Those who harassed this man were ignorant of the fact that a senator could be a dark skinned black man. In their heads a senator is an old white man and he didn't fit the profile.

Depending on who makes these assumptions the consequences can be significant, so don't pretend that these are mere isolated cases or that whites suffer from this to the degree that nonwhites do. And you do know that filling up a job application doesn't land one a job. One has to go through a whole battery of interviews with ample opportunity for implicit bias to creep in, as in "he doesn't look the part even though his qualifications are quite adequate". This when the final candidate is selected.

BOTH Condi Rice and Collin Powell have spoken to the issue of racism and implicit bias. I hardly think that these 3 GOP officials are race baiting liberal nutcases.

Now in terms of its relevance to this topic. I will not argue that the doctor was forced off the plane as he claims he was merely because he was Chinese. I will however say that I understand why he might think that this was the case.

I take it that you are a white man, or a very very young nonwhite person who hasn't fully experienced life yet. But learn something from Tim Scott's remarks.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:30 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
I think race is valid. If anyone has been paying attention what has happened in this nation over the last decade, if you aren't white, you get more scrutiny than you probably should.


I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me the race of the gate agent that started this whole mess.

guyanam wrote:
I have no way of knowing if this man was selected because he was Chinese. I do know why he might feel this way because there are too many instances where non whites are implicitly assumed to be "less than" whites in general and white men in particular.


So we have no way of knowing that race played a part, yet we are perfectly fine with making it about race. As I said above, I have yet to hear what the race was of the gate agent. Does it matter to me personally? Not at all. But if we are going to use this man's race as a potential reason for his ouster, then maybe we should at least know what the race was of the person doing the ousting. Afterall, we are basically calling them racist without a shred of proof.

I remember in the 70's we were told to be "colorblind" - that skin color didn't matter. It seems to have gone the opposite way. Now, it actually matters even when there is no evidence that it matters. All that matters is that your skin tone or race somehow automatically creates a racist situation.

I think segregation is a horrid idea, but one thing that would come out of a segregated society is we could all stop blaming everything on race. I thought we were better than that but clearly no matter how much we grow, we are going to be pulled backwards again and again and again. Because race.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:21 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.



You actually have the expected legalities backwards in this possible case of civil dispute. Since the airline had seated him on the aircraft (and possession - in this case possession of a seat occupied via with authorization and by proper procedure) - the possessor of an "item" is considered to have the benefit of the doubt (the common saying is possession is 9/10th of the law); if there was a contract of carriage dispute at this stage (after being properly seated on the aircraft) it would legally be expected that the airline would transport the passenger on the flight; and then the airline could sue the passenger for damages.

This may come as a shock to some... But people actually have rights - in some cases such as this contract rights - that take precedence over the rights of an airline. No staff or crew member can negate those rights.

Have a great day,


Have you read the contract? https://www.united.com/web/en-us/conten ... aspx#sec21 It is not your platitudes that would have decided this; it is the language of the contract. We do not have a "living breathing" contract of carriage anymore then we have a "living breathing" Constitution. Rule 21 C. seems to be the one that would apply. Arguably, having more people show up then calculated and having operational needs to transport flight crew may come under that rule, then again not. The good doctor may have had a claim if the rule did not apply. However, once he started acting up, other parts of the refusal to transport rule would kick in because his refusal to follow crew directives made him a safety risk. Anyway, before you argue about rights, read the contract. This is not about feelings.



but.. but.. they saw some "legal scholar" on TV who says you're wrong, even though the contract of carriage says nothing about at what point or whether on the plane or not. They infer it, so therefore it must mean it.
 
2175301
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:22 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
The incident did not start with police dragging the hapless man of the plane after pummeling him for sport. He was told repeatedly to deplane. His options were to do as instructed and, (if UAL was in violation of its contract for carriage), sue them for damages. There have been occurrences of patients assaulting medical staff and damaging property who found themselves going to jail. United will pay up but not because of the legalities rather due to its need to get this incident behind it as far as the news cycle goes.



You actually have the expected legalities backwards in this possible case of civil dispute. Since the airline had seated him on the aircraft (and possession - in this case possession of a seat occupied via with authorization and by proper procedure) - the possessor of an "item" is considered to have the benefit of the doubt (the common saying is possession is 9/10th of the law); if there was a contract of carriage dispute at this stage (after being properly seated on the aircraft) it would legally be expected that the airline would transport the passenger on the flight; and then the airline could sue the passenger for damages.

This may come as a shock to some... But people actually have rights - in some cases such as this contract rights - that take precedence over the rights of an airline. No staff or crew member can negate those rights.

Have a great day,


Have you read the contract? https://www.united.com/web/en-us/conten ... aspx#sec21 It is not your platitudes that would have decided this; it is the language of the contract. We do not have a "living breathing" contract of carriage anymore then we have a "living breathing" Constitution. Rule 21 C. seems to be the one that would apply. Arguably, having more people show up then calculated and having operational needs to transport flight crew may come under that rule, then again not. The good doctor may have had a claim if the rule did not apply. However, once he started acting up, other parts of the refusal to transport rule would kick in because his refusal to follow crew directives made him a safety risk. Anyway, before you argue about rights, read the contract. This is not about feelings.


Yes, I did read the contract. You seem to be implying that the Force Majeure clause applies. Having personally exercised the Force Majeure clause in several contracts worth several million dollars I can assure you that it does not apply to a case of this. Where is the Act of god, war, etc... and conditions totally beyond the airline's control (they had other options).

Also, in order to exercise the Force Majeure clause of a contract you must specifically tell the other party that you are exercising that clause and the specific reason (Act of god, war, riot, etc) (I have heard that from multiple lawyers) and my communication of Force Majeure on contracts contained precise wording and the reason (and was not challenged by the other parties); and I know of a few business owners who have had insurance companies exercise the clause after riots and the insurance companies wording is precise.

Again, if the party disagrees with the stated Force Majeure claim, then the parties head to court - since the passenger was already properly boarded the possession of the seat by the passenger takes legal precedence and the airline could have sued after the flight for whatever damages they thought applied.

Under no situation or conditions within the United States of America does any party have the legal right to use, or threaten to use, force to resolve a civil contract dispute.

Have a great day,
 
2175301
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:07 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
but.. but.. they saw some "legal scholar" on TV who says you're wrong, even though the contract of carriage says nothing about at what point or whether on the plane or not. They infer it, so therefore it must mean it.


It is actually much simpler than that: There are very solid legal rules in play here. Since United wrote this contract and essentially "applied" it to all passengers without their ability to reasonably negotiate the contract there is one key legal rule that applies. ANY uncertainty about what something means goes against that party that wrote the contract. Thus, since the CoC does not define when "boarding" takes place; all any passenger has to do is claim something that sounds plausible as the "point" boarding occurs - and the court will validate that position (United had the option to define it - and did not; therefor the passengers get to define it).

Clearly in this case United does not stand on any legal ground on saying that a passenger allowed on the plane and sitting in their assigned seat was not boarded. I doubt that they can make any argument once a person's pass/ticket (etc) is scanned (etc) at the gate and they are allowed to walk/ride down the jetway/walkway to the aircraft. If this went to court and was tried it might be ruled to occur before that point (one of several reasons United will never ever allow this to go to court - even if it cost an extra $100 million).

So this is not a matter of interpretation between parties who may not understand, and that somehow United (and you) could interpret it differently. It's a USA law on how contracts are interpreted (and to the best of my knowledge no judge in the USA has ever ruled otherwise; and the case-law of rulings against companies/people who wrote such contracts is truly massive).

Have a great day,
 
Bald1983
Posts: 623
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:33 pm

guyanam wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
I . The junior senator from South Carolina is African American and a Republican. .


Whites no longer relevant? Take a look at the Supreme Court, at the Senate, or who are the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and who heads up major financial institutions. You demean yourself by screams that whites are under threat, or that an observation that white men are over represented in these positions is inaccurate. It will be a long time before "whites are under threat" and you put yourself in line with the Breitbart nutcases if you play that victim card.

The junior senator for South Carolina has himself spoken about implicit bias that he has suffered AS A SENATOR. Yes implicit bias as people make assumptions about others based on how they look, and given that he is the only dark skinned black senator

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/t ... ate-225507

Please learn something from this. Racism isn't merely about people OPENLY screaming hatred, or about laws discriminating based on race. It is about some one making an assumption of another based upon what they look like. Those who harassed this man were ignorant of the fact that a senator could be a dark skinned black man. In their heads a senator is an old white man and he didn't fit the profile.

Depending on who makes these assumptions the consequences can be significant, so don't pretend that these are mere isolated cases or that whites suffer from this to the degree that nonwhites do. And you do know that filling up a job application doesn't land one a job. One has to go through a whole battery of interviews with ample opportunity for implicit bias to creep in, as in "he doesn't look the part even though his qualifications are quite adequate". This when the final candidate is selected.

BOTH Condi Rice and Collin Powell have spoken to the issue of racism and implicit bias. I hardly think that these 3 GOP officials are race baiting liberal nutcases.

Now in terms of its relevance to this topic. I will not argue that the doctor was forced off the plane as he claims he was merely because he was Chinese. I will however say that I understand why he might think that this was the case.

I take it that you are a white man, or a very very young nonwhite person who hasn't fully experienced life yet. But learn something from Tim Scott's remarks.


I said racism exists. I know that Secretaries Rice and Powell experienced racism. Condi Rice knew some of the girls murdered in the church bombings by the KKK. Colin Powell experienced racism when he drove to his first duty assignment as a new Army officer. That was in the sixties. I would suggest the real racist may be you. Sounds like you believe that in order for this nation to move on, there must be payback. That is racist. There is also NO evidence that anyone used race as a criteria for deciding to bump this doctor.
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am

Bald1983 wrote:
[
I said racism exists. I know that Secretaries Rice and Powell experienced racism. Condi Rice knew.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/condi-rice- ... ace-blind/

Condi isn't talking about 1966 nor is Tim Scott. They are talking about PRESENT day USA. Even though much progress has been made there is much more to go so for you to fool yourself that this topic ceased to be relevant 50 years ago is being

Tim Scott referred to issues of blatant racism that occurred as recently as LAST YEAR. Now one can only ponder what the end result would have been if he were a construction working heading home and not a US Senator. I mean if a US Senator can experience this, NOT ONCE, but SEVERAL times, I would think that there is a problem.

You are just displaying your gross ignorance of this issue. I suggest that you read and learn,
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:45 am

[quote="Bald1983. Sounds like you believe that in order for this nation to move on, there must be payback. That is racist. There is also NO evidence that anyone used race as a criteria for deciding to bump this doctor.[/quote]


Can you cite where I said payback. Does pointing out to you that in 2017 skin color is still a factor in how people are treated and that people of color still face more barriers than do white men rise to being a demand for payback.

I have said on SEVERAL occasions that I don't know whether the man was discriminated against because he was Chinese. I specifically stated that I can understand why he might think that he was.

Tim Scott and Condi Rice both describe a USA which in 2017 is NOT color blind. These are hardly racial militants for ever looking for racism where it doesn't exist.

Unless you walk a mile in a man's shoes you don't know how it fits, so you should not lecture him that he is mistaken. If indeed race was a factor, and I am not saying that it was, in 2017 it will NOT be an angry white man waving a confederate flag. It might even be a Chinese employee who was told to get the man off the plane, the implicit bias being that he is an easier victim, given a stereotype of Asians being meek.
 
ALTF4
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:01 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:25 am

SATexan wrote:
ALTF4 wrote:
I never said anything about bumping from a room after you checked in. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?


Correct me if I'm wrong. You were drawing a parallel to United's bumping policy by insisting that even hotels bump guests and that the guests don't have any federal protections against such incidents.

I merely stated that bumping of guests is not commonplace in the hotel industry for a lot of reasons.


I was discussing the example with whoever I was quoting at the time - he was the one who came up with the example of hotels never bumping people ever - I was informing him that people do indeed get bumped. To your point, however, hotels won't bump from an occupied room that I know about.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:34 am

guyanam wrote:
I have said on SEVERAL occasions that I don't know whether the man was discriminated against because he was Chinese. I specifically stated that I can understand why he might think that he was.


I thought that his lawyers had said explicitly that this was not a race issue when they gave their press conference. Has this changed? Are they now claiming he was discriminated against because he is Asian?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:03 pm

So has this guy filed a law suit yet?
 
jayunited
Posts: 2976
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:18 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
I thought that his lawyers had said explicitly that this was not a race issue when they gave their press conference. Has this changed? Are they now claiming he was discriminated against because he is Asian?


We are now getting another side to this story, although UA probably would settle the problem is the City of Chicago is showing no sign of wanting to settle. While the city has admitted the offers did not follow protocol they city is clearly placing the blame for the escalation on Dr. Dao. The city has released the incident report that was filed by the Chicago Police if the report on file is true it details how the situation escalated out of control once the aviation police were on board. It also reiterates what Oscar originally told employees the day after the incident. The major new outlets here in Chicago are now taking a much closer look at this case they filed a FOIA and instead of just focusing on that now infamous video posted to social media they are now digging to find out exactly what happened before that video was shot. This does not excuse what happened but if Dr. Dao thought the City of Chicago was just going to sit quietly by it seems like that is not going to happen. So while Dr. Dao lawyer is doing TV interviews and press conferences I hope he knows the City of Chicago seems to be gearing up for a fight. Publicly I get the feeling UA wants to put this whole situation behind them but privately I think they are happy the City of Chicago is fighting back.

Once again this does not excuse what happened to Dr. Dao

http://abc7chicago.com/news/airport-pol ... e/1912460/
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:21 pm

City of Chicago has far less credibility than UA. Demetrio will eat them for breakfast. These could be made up versions based on internal communications. Unless feds review these reports and confirm their validity.

Off-topic reference about false claims. There was an incident of police in Alabama body slammed a 70 year old man who cannot speak English into concrete pavement, paralyzing half of his body, dash-cam video shows how false narrative was set in motion, claiming he was trying move away from them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_SSGa7-6BQ
All posts are just opinions.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2976
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
City of Chicago has far less credibility than UA. Demetrio will eat them for breakfast. These could be made up versions based on internal communications. Unless feds review these reports and confirm their validity.

Off-topic reference about false claims. There was an incident of police in Alabama body slammed a 70 year old man who cannot speak English into concrete pavement, paralyzing half of his body, dash-cam video shows how false narrative was set in motion, claiming he was trying move away from them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_SSGa7-6BQ


I completely understand and agree with what you are saying which is why I said if the report the security officers filed is true. If these security officers filed a false report you will probably see the city of Chicago jump at the chance to settle this case. But right now the City of Chicago is saying Dr Dao is partially responsible for his injuries because he attempted to strike one officer with a closed fist causing that offer to loose his grip on the doctor which resulted in the doctor hitting his face on the arm rest. While Demetrio is good Chicago has great attorneys as well, and right now Chicago is not backing down they freely admit the officers didn't follow protocol but City of Chicago is saying Dr.Dao's injuries were cause by his resistance and the officers didn't slam or throw him into the arm rest.

If those officers lied on their incident reports they will be facing more than just suspensions we will have to wait and let these investigations play out.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:56 pm

jayunited wrote:
and right now Chicago is not backing down they freely admit the officers didn't follow protocol but City of Chicago is saying Dr.Dao's injuries were cause by his resistance and the officers didn't slam or throw him into the arm rest.

If those officers lied on their incident reports they will be facing more than just suspensions we will have to wait and let these investigations play out.


Chicago never backed down even when they had video evidence incriminating their own employees. I am just going by the history of Chicago. My suggestion to UA, don't consider City as a force multiplier, if this ever goes to court ask for a separate trail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/chicago-rel ... incidents/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/chicago-oka ... dy-deaths/
All posts are just opinions.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:28 pm

People still arguing here after the CEO took responsibility. Incredible. Do you really think, he'd be out there apologizing if legal had told him this was a slam dunk in court?

Again, anybody who feels the airline is right, please offer to pay UA's settlement. Or offer them legal counsel on your dime or time. Clearly, you're more brilliant than all their paid attorneys and the CEO they advise.

I almost hope UA takes this to court so that a judge can shred that totally biased CoC. I would love to see how the bootlickers react to that. Judges take a dim view of a contract you write, strongly favouring you when the other party has very little effective recourse to unilateral adjustment.
 
Blockplus
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:30 pm

I'm actually surprised that it hasn't been brought up. The way any capacity purchase agreement works. Ual purchases the rights to use availible seats on an aircraft. sub reserves the right to remove capacity at a cost to the carrier. or decommit the aircraft. a normal plane has 76 seats. if due to operational reasons the sub cannot accommodate 76 they must pay ual for the lost capacity. In the same way that if you changed from one configured a/c to another that had fewer seats. Republic removed or decommited this aircraft to 72 seats. Ual cannot now sell or use the other 4 seats. They dont own them so they cannot force or occupy them. republic as per their contract reimburses ual for denied capacity. Ual as per contract couldnt force the case, they now have only a 72 pax aircraft to fill. It didnt matter if 76 people were seated. Ual didnt own the 4 seats. They are spinners, even if they are seated. Try boarding a plane that has blocked seats for crew rest. As a spinner, you could be seated in a crew rest seat but, you are not going in those seats.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:31 pm

jayunited wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
City of Chicago has far less credibility than UA. Demetrio will eat them for breakfast. These could be made up versions based on internal communications. Unless feds review these reports and confirm their validity.

Off-topic reference about false claims. There was an incident of police in Alabama body slammed a 70 year old man who cannot speak English into concrete pavement, paralyzing half of his body, dash-cam video shows how false narrative was set in motion, claiming he was trying move away from them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_SSGa7-6BQ


I completely understand and agree with what you are saying which is why I said if the report the security officers filed is true. If these security officers filed a false report you will probably see the city of Chicago jump at the chance to settle this case. But right now the City of Chicago is saying Dr Dao is partially responsible for his injuries because he attempted to strike one officer with a closed fist causing that offer to loose his grip on the doctor which resulted in the doctor hitting his face on the arm rest. While Demetrio is good Chicago has great attorneys as well, and right now Chicago is not backing down they freely admit the officers didn't follow protocol but City of Chicago is saying Dr.Dao's injuries were cause by his resistance and the officers didn't slam or throw him into the arm rest.

If those officers lied on their incident reports they will be facing more than just suspensions we will have to wait and let these investigations play out.


The only thing that will happen is a slightly reduced settlement or court award. At the end of the day, both the Chicago APD and the airline have publicly stated that the incident should never have happened. It's very easy for Dao's lawyers to argue that he was defending himself against excessive force from the police and what was effectively robbery (confiscation under duress) by the airline.

The cop can say what he wants. Thankfully, there's video this time.

Also, let's not forget the discovery phase. Imagine all the reports and recordings that will come out during discovery. This case is a lawyer's dream.
 
User avatar
neutrino
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:54 pm

ytz wrote:
I would love to see how the bootlickers react to that.

They'll become bootswallowers?
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:17 pm

Based on CAD Chairwoman and Director's testimony, CAD's safety personnel are present at the airport to enforce safety of retail space and badge validity/usage of retail workforce. They are given a allowance to buy uniform, and they are not supposed wear anything with "Police" on it. Uniform supposed to have just "Security". To catch badge violations some CAD safety personnel may be in plain clothes.
All posts are just opinions.
 
coairman
Posts: 167
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:24 am

eaglepower83 wrote:
coairman wrote:
Some facts here.....they weren't United Crew members who were deadheading....they were United Express Crew Members who work for an airline called Republic Airlines. Not United. They fly for under contract for United as United Express. Another thing.....United employees didn't beat the Dr. up. It was goons who work for the city of Chicago who were tough, rough and out of hand. United employees would never do that. United employees in general , are polite and professional people who take great pride in providing solid customer service. Don't label the ENTIRE airline bad when it might have been two United employees who may have made bad mistakes...such as the gate agent and his or her supervisor. People do make mistakes and United never intended for the DR. to be harmed physically. This flight was operated by Republic Airlines dba United Express. The company did a poor job distinguishing these facts and the national media, especially CNN has been highly unfair and biased in its coverage.



Sorry, the entire airline is bad if this is how they allow their contractors to act, when flying THEIR brand and issuing THEIR tickets to ride said contractor.
United is 100% responsible for Republic in this instance.
Or they should be found to be.
If you're selling a service with your policies and your branding, and taking customers' money, you can't just wash your hands and say "ohhh well WE didn't actually fly this flight. We're exempt."
Sorry, that's unethical AT LEAST.



WONG! UA is NOT 100% responsible! Shared responsibility between Ua, the Dr. with a checkered past ( check out his controversial medical background....lack of medical ethics, etc) and the police's harsh treatment. No party is 100% at fault.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
Anthony100
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:40 am

Quality over quantity is all I have to say to United.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:25 pm

Sorry if this was posted.

Here is some NEW VIDEO...also, th Chicago Dept of Aviation police report blames the pax
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/video-u ... t-47019047
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1759
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:29 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Sorry if this was posted.

Here is some NEW VIDEO...also, th Chicago Dept of Aviation police report blames the pax
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/video-u ... t-47019047


What exactly is new in that video?
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:57 pm

9w748capt wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Sorry if this was posted.

Here is some NEW VIDEO...also, th Chicago Dept of Aviation police report blames the pax
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/video-u ... t-47019047


What exactly is new in that video?



Do you see the title...don't blame the messenger. Plus,...I hadn't seen that angle before
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:59 pm

Yet again, a costly ad campaign is backfiring. Every time the Tribeca Film Festival (April 19-30) ran the sleek promo spot for United Airlines’ super-posh Polaris International business class (see below), New York audiences erupted in jeering laughter. Clearly, United still has PR repair work to do, following the viral video of a man being pulled bleeding off a plane after refusing to give up his reserved seat. So Tribeca and the airline agreed to pull the ad after three days of laughter before public screenings

United has SO much work to do here. This is one of the biggest disasters ever as people are forever associated United with being dragged off a plane. Its not some short lived thing people are forgetting about. This is a full code red crises for United. 2 years from now late night comedians are going to still joking about United dragging is passengers and breaking teeth. This has cost United so much, renting a charter plane would have saved them millions. They are getting payback for being cheap. Force that CEO out NOW
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:10 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yet again, a costly ad campaign is backfiring. Every time the Tribeca Film Festival (April 19-30) ran the sleek promo spot for United Airlines’ super-posh Polaris International business class (see below), New York audiences erupted in jeering laughter. Clearly, United still has PR repair work to do, following the viral video of a man being pulled bleeding off a plane after refusing to give up his reserved seat. So Tribeca and the airline agreed to pull the ad after three days of laughter before public screenings

United has SO much work to do here. This is one of the biggest disasters ever as people are forever associated United with being dragged off a plane. Its not some short lived thing people are forgetting about. This is a full code red crises for United. 2 years from now late night comedians are going to still joking about United dragging is passengers and breaking teeth. This has cost United so much, renting a charter plane would have saved them millions. They are getting payback for being cheap. Force that CEO out NOW


1. This all just happened. Of course it's still fresh in people's minds as it was a pretty powerful video.
2. Very few people are worried about being dragged off a plane - United or anyone else.
3. It is easy to make jokes about it, which is why late-night has done so well with it and why people still are having fun with it.
4. Oscar had zero to do with this.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:50 am

guyanam wrote:
A man who paid his fare, who is NOT a security threat, and who arrived on time should be allowed to fly. The fact that the airline had a problem with moving its crews around is NO excuse to yank him off if he refused to voluntarily leave. Why should passengers be inconvenienced because the airline failed to plan the deployment of its personnel properly?

AIRLINES ARE NOT DOING US A FAVOR, WE PAY OUR FARES AND WE SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT! The vast majority of passengers accept all sorts of abuse, including the recent trend of shoe horning us into seats no grown man should be forced to sit in. Grown men literally making out with each other because the seats are so tight and narrow that we sit virtually shoulder down to ankle pasted on each other. Yet we accept this because we have no choice!


I agree with a number of your sentiments, but the bit about seating has been discussed in this thread already and we, the travelling public need to take some responsibility for the direction that the carriers are travelling. The demand for low cost fares saw the rise of budget airlines and a steady loss of market share for the 'flag' carriers, who then started to take measures to compete at the turn of the century. Yes, I think quality is suffering and things need to change, but there has to be a cost implication for this.

I also think you need to pick up a dictionary and look up the word literally... because that can't be what you meant (unless you have been flying to the pride festival in SFO) :shock:
 
bob75013
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:35 pm

Well, OM just sent another e-mail to MileagePlus members (or maybe like the first, only to 1K members) dunno:

"Dear (name removed),

Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines ""

"
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:23 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
guyanam wrote:
A man who paid his fare, who is NOT a security threat, and who arrived on time should be allowed to fly. The fact that the airline had a problem with moving its crews around is NO excuse to yank him off if he refused to voluntarily leave. Why should passengers be inconvenienced because the airline failed to plan the deployment of its personnel properly?

AIRLINES ARE NOT DOING US A FAVOR, WE PAY OUR FARES AND WE SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT! The vast majority of passengers accept all sorts of abuse, including the recent trend of shoe horning us into seats no grown man should be forced to sit in. Grown men literally making out with each other because the seats are so tight and narrow that we sit virtually shoulder down to ankle pasted on each other. Yet we accept this because we have no choice!


I agree with a number of your sentiments, but the bit about seating has been discussed in this thread already and we, the travelling public need to take some responsibility for the direction that the carriers are travelling. The demand for low cost fares saw the rise of budget airlines and a steady loss of market share for the 'flag' carriers, who then started to take measures to compete at the turn of the century. Yes, I think quality is suffering and things need to change, but there has to be a cost implication for this.

I also think you need to pick up a dictionary and look up the word literally... because that can't be what you meant (unless you have been flying to the pride festival in SFO) :shock:



I mean literally because the way that we are squeezed on planes makes grown men as intimate with each other as if they were going to a pride event. I recently had an experience where we literally had to beg the FA to give the other passenger, who was in the middle seat, another seat. She complied once the flight was closed, before push back. We made a joke that if this hadn't happened we would have known every contour of each other's bodies by the time we reached MIA from LGA.

Yet passengers meekly accept this, and not being served food on flights, even though there isn't necessarily always time to get food at smaller airports or where connections are tight. We also pay fees for our bags, even as airlines make it increasingly more difficult to bring them on board. And now we should accept being yanked off flights, not because weather or heavy cargo forces a lighter take off weight, but because an airlines wants to move non revenue crews around, and so tosses off revenue passengers? Or rude FAs grab strollers hitting passengers as they do so? And then challenge passengers to a fight?

I have no doubt that being an FA is stressful but put the blame where it lies and that is with management who is disrespectful BOTH of their customers and their staff. FAs gain nothing by talking out their frustration on passengers or acting in ways that escalate the likelihood of conflict.
 
User avatar
Seabear
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 pm

United Airlines Settles Lawsuit Over Passenger Dragged Off Plane https://nyti.ms/2qbDWVE

Well, that didn't take long. Cha-ching!
 
United1
Posts: 4187
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 pm

UA settled out of court with the Dr today....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!

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