Sand0rf
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Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:38 am

Some unconfirmed rumors say that United want to increase frequency at Amsterdam but can't get extra slots because of congestion. In response to that they are working on moving the UA70/71 flight to Rotterdam Airport.

Flight times for the new UA70/71 flight as follows:
United Airlines, Rotterdam - Newark, B757-200:
UA70 EWR 1755 - 0735 RTM B752
UA71 RTM 0915 - 1130 EWR B752
Frequency: 4 times weekly

The slots that has been freed at AMS would get a new flight with the larger B772.

Again this are unconfirmed rumors and might very well be totally nonsense but I've found it on this forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 6&page=153
 
76er
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:47 am

That would be great news!
But... can a fully laoded 757 make it off the 2000m/6000ft runway with enough fuel to make it back to EWR?
 
Sand0rf
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:55 am

According to http://www.b757.info/boeing-757-200-specifications/ the Takeoff field length at MTOW for the RB211 engine type is 2070 meters while the runway at Rotterdam is 2200 meters. And as United doesn't operate a full economy version the MTOW for their 757's should be a bit lower. Might be a problem on a very hot day though
 
777klm
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:16 am

That would be great for UA and RTM! I remember back in 2005 CO also considered RTM, but didn't start it in the end...
It would be the first long haul flight for RTM, a city home to a lot of global HQs.
With regard to their capacity at AMS, they can always upgrade to a 777 (or 744, but I realise that won't happen). Currently they operate a 752/763 on the EWR-AMS route
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
nadavatar64
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:46 am

Hope it will come to fruition, but frankly I dont see EWR-RTM happening.
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:32 am

I wish this were true, however:

- No source is given
- It isn't a prominent user on that forum
- The user "jokingly" compared Airbus to a crematorium and LH to Auschwitz in a different thread

I have no reason to believe a romor from such "source".
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:39 pm

I'm surprised none of the New York carriers have looked into Antwerp. 85% of the world's diamonds get traded through that city, and New York is another major centre of the industry. Lots of potential for couriers and high security cargo.
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:50 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I'm surprised none of the New York carriers have looked into Antwerp.

The runway is way too short.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:59 pm

Not going to happen.
SFO
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:34 pm

FlyingHollander wrote:
I wish this were true, however:

- No source is given
- It isn't a prominent user on that forum
- The user "jokingly" compared Airbus to a crematorium and LH to Auschwitz in a different thread

I have no reason to believe a romor from such "source".

He said a couple of years ago that he works for BA at AMS, Abd he has made statements about new Dutch routes before, like NH to AMS, BA to MST. As both didn't materialize it doesn't look to good for this one. The statements that did turn out to be true had to do with cancellations of routes or issues concerning ground handling at AMS. So it does look like he has seen some more info then we have, but that clearly doesn't mean that every memo that he read on some intranet will be reality. In other words, it's just a 'pilot rumor', even though he's not a pilot. It's going to be interesting for RTM if it turns out to be true, but don't try to hold your breath until the 1st UA 757 lands at Zestienhoven.
 
sw733
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:53 pm

That would be very unpleasant to be stuck at RTM with a full load of 757 pax + the usual pax. I absolutely love, love, love RTM airport, but it gets overwhelmed quickly, even by a 757.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:03 pm

I don't think it would work, the runway in Rotterdam is just too short. That would put weight restrictions on the plane. Out of all commercial airports in the Netherlands Rotterdam is the one with the shortest runway. Even the Transavia 737s to the Canary Islands are weight restricted, therefor Transavia mostly uses their 737-700s out of Rotterdam instead of their 800s.

If they are to serve another airport in the Netherlands next to Amsterdam it'll be Eindhoven, Maastricht or Groningen. Certainly Eindhoven has the ability to serve larger aircraft. Groningen and Maastricht both can serve a 757, but not much more than that. Besides, there's not much demand for those airports so I guess Eindhoven is the only realistic option.
 
NichCage
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:09 pm

RTM is a pretty small airport. There are only more than a few parking spaces for aircraft, but it's not too bad considering the airport only gets a small amount of European traffic. This would be very nice to see if it becomes a reality.

Also, it's amazing to see how CO originally launched flights to smaller European cities with the 757, such as Berlin and Hamburg for example.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:36 pm

NichCage wrote:
RTM is a pretty small airport. There are only more than a few parking spaces for aircraft, but it's not too bad considering the airport only gets a small amount of European traffic. This would be very nice to see if it becomes a reality.

Also, it's amazing to see how CO originally launched flights to smaller European cities with the 757, such as Berlin and Hamburg for example.


But Berlin and Hamburg both got much larger airports than Rotterdam, not to mention longer runways. Rotterdam airport is indeed small given the size of the city, but Amsterdam is not too far away either so there never really was a need for growth at Rotterdam. Only now that Amsterdam is getting full airlines are starting to search for alternatives.
 
rwsea
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:44 pm

It would be convenient to have a New York option out of RTM, but that said, Rotterdam Central Station is only a 25 minute train ride directly to Schiphol. Even the slow trains are about 45 minutes, which is still less than the time it takes to get from EWR to Manhattan on most days. RTM itself isn't connected to the train network and isn't very accessible unless you live nearby and have a car. Then there are the runway issues and the small size of the airport, as mentioned above.

I just don't see how a flight to RTM could be successful when Schiphol is so close by and is such a massive hub already.
 
thijs1984
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:16 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I don't think it would work, the runway in Rotterdam is just too short. That would put weight restrictions on the plane. Out of all commercial airports in the Netherlands Rotterdam is the one with the shortest runway. Even the Transavia 737s to the Canary Islands are weight restricted, therefor Transavia mostly uses their 737-700s out of Rotterdam instead of their 800s.

If they are to serve another airport in the Netherlands next to Amsterdam it'll be Eindhoven, Maastricht or Groningen. Certainly Eindhoven has the ability to serve larger aircraft. Groningen and Maastricht both can serve a 757, but not much more than that. Besides, there's not much demand for those airports so I guess Eindhoven is the only realistic option.


TACV already operates with their 757 out of Rotterdam, assume this plane is closer to it's MTOW than the United 757. and in the summer season they usually fly directly to the Cape Verde Islands which is also about 6 hrs flight distance from Rotterdam (and that with an all economy 757 with usually very heavy Luggage loads.

The 737 is a runway-hog and not the best type of plane for RTM for 4+ hours flights. A320-series 757's and 767's would not have any restrictions to number of pax if they would depart from RTM to the Canary islands, whilst the 737-800's faces restrictions.

the rumor could be true. Schiphol is heavy congested in terms of slots. Rotterdam is quite close and does not have any restrictions for the United 757's. United could have the opportuinty to add the capacity to the Netherlands they wish at lower costs.
Schiphol was also restricted in the 90's, this resulted in a situation in which some airlines partialy operated out of Rotterdam. Like Air Malta en Royal air maroc did. TACV also diverted their flights back then for the first time to Rotterdam, and currently they only operate out of Rotterdam. so let's wait and see. end hope for the best.
A service to New York / Newark has Always been on the top of the wish list of the airport and city alike.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:19 pm

Is there a terrain issue at RTM? If not, 2200 meters is plenty for a flight to NYC on a 752; it's about 200 meters more than BRS has, for instance.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
thijs1984
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:20 pm

rwsea wrote:
It would be convenient to have a New York option out of RTM, but that said, Rotterdam Central Station is only a 25 minute train ride directly to Schiphol. Even the slow trains are about 45 minutes, which is still less than the time it takes to get from EWR to Manhattan on most days. RTM itself isn't connected to the train network and isn't very accessible unless you live nearby and have a car. Then there are the runway issues and the small size of the airport, as mentioned above.

I just don't see how a flight to RTM could be successful when Schiphol is so close by and is such a massive hub already.


but most people do not live near the central station of Rotterdam. the travel time to the local airport from any corner of the Rotterdam-Rijmond area is probably shorter then traveling to the Central station of Rotterdam. When departing our of Rotterdam you Always save at least 2 hours compared to traveling our of Amsterdam
 
thijs1984
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Is there a terrain issue at RTM? If not, 2200 meters is plenty for a flight to NYC on a 752; it's about 200 meters more than BRS has, for instance.


no not at all. there arn't any mountains or high rise buildings in the approach of runway 06-24

the runway is longer than the one of SXM (if i remember correctly)
 
thijs1984
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:32 pm

NichCage wrote:
RTM is a pretty small airport. There are only more than a few parking spaces for aircraft, but it's not too bad considering the airport only gets a small amount of European traffic. This would be very nice to see if it becomes a reality.

Also, it's amazing to see how CO originally launched flights to smaller European cities with the 757, such as Berlin and Hamburg for example.


the apron of the airport is currently under overhaul (to be completed next week)
Once completed it will have 14 parking spots for 737-size aircaft (of which als least 3 could be used for larger aircraft)
there is more than enough space to double the main apron if required. and the terminal expansion is foreseen to commence later this year / early next year.
The jet centre can house up to 4 737-size aircraft (but the bizzjets which use this apron are usually smaller)
 
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Eindhoven
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:51 am

Why fly a 757 to RTM when they can fly as big as a 777 to EIN? EIN is the true second airport in the Netherlands with its own cachment area that is different from the AMS cachment area. EIN serves the whole south and east of the Netherlands and parts of Belgium and Germany as well. It is the most convenient airport that is right in the middle of the AMS-BRU-DUS triangle. Here at EIN we would love to have UA.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:04 pm

Eindhoven wrote:
Why fly a 757 to RTM when they can fly as big as a 777 to EIN? EIN is the true second airport in the Netherlands with its own cachment area that is different from the AMS cachment area. EIN serves the whole south and east of the Netherlands and parts of Belgium and Germany as well. It is the most convenient airport that is right in the middle of the AMS-BRU-DUS triangle. Here at EIN we would love to have UA.

They won't fly a 777 into ein unless they leave AMS(won't happen).Another reason is not many Americans know of Eindhoven .
Yes there will be Americans that know of Eindhoven but it depends if they can fill a 777 to ein which don't see happening unless united advertise EIN as Amsterdam Eindhoven airport.In all united will not fly a 777 to ein however I'm not even sure if they will fly to ein anyway but I would like it to happen and if they did it would be with a 757.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:07 pm

Also I was meant to say about RTM
Is how far is it away from AMS because if it's a small distance then United may consider it.
With United getting B77Ws won't they just put them on?
What's the current aircraft they use to AMS?
 
LJ
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:09 pm

Eindhoven wrote:
Why fly a 757 to RTM when they can fly as big as a 777 to EIN? EIN is the true second airport in the Netherlands with its own cachment area that is different from the AMS cachment area. EIN serves the whole south and east of the Netherlands and parts of Belgium and Germany as well. It is the most convenient airport that is right in the middle of the AMS-BRU-DUS triangle. Here at EIN we would love to have UA.


Indeed. It doesn't make any sense to fly to AMS and RTM from the US. Then again, why not increasing frequency to BRU/DUS instead?

BTW can both EIN and RTM meet the security requirements for an UA flight?

Momo1435 wrote:
Abd he has made statements about new Dutch routes before, like NH to AMS, BA to MST. As both didn't materialize it doesn't look to good for this one.


To be fair, NH did look at AMS but opted for BRU in the end. However, the BA to MST flight was wishfull thinking.

Sand0rf wrote:
Some unconfirmed rumors say that United want to increase frequency at Amsterdam but can't get extra slots because of congestion. In response to that they are working on moving the UA70/71 flight to Rotterdam Airport.


That's why we have Lelystad Airport in a few years :D
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:10 pm

UA70/71 is operated by a 763 in the summer schedule so that would be even more restrictive. Plus they will lose all inbound and outbound connecting pax at AMS which are quite a lot each day.

This guy seems like an interesting character. Further on he claims that a full 738 with 189 passengers weighs as much as a 752 with 169 passengers and so he loses all credibility there if you ask me. Reading his posts I can conclude he works for the same company as I do but I have no idea who he is. I will say we have plenty of idiots working with us.


Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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Eindhoven
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:27 pm

Maybe EIN would work for AA now that they cut BRU and DUS.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

This says AA finds AMS very interesting but decided to terminate ORD-DUS and also pull out of BRU after the terrorist attacks at that airport. That leaves a whole region unserved, a region that EIN is right in the middle of. Also for them EIN can be a relief airport for the slot restricted AMS.
 
LCKip
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:29 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
Also I was meant to say about RTM Is how far is it away from AMS because if it's a small distance then United may consider it. With United getting B77Ws won't they just put them on? What's the current aircraft they use to AMS?

Distance from airport to center AMS: 72 km. Keep in mind that the highway to AMS is congested in the morning/afternoon peak hour. The ANWB (Dutch auto club): 56 minutes. I doubt it. Alternative one can take a taxi to Rotterdam Central railway station to take a train there. Intercity train 1h13min. One can take the Intercity Direct, 41min but must buy a ticket/reservation which takes time at the ticket office.
 
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Eindhoven
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:33 pm

LCKip wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
Also I was meant to say about RTM Is how far is it away from AMS because if it's a small distance then United may consider it. With United getting B77Ws won't they just put them on? What's the current aircraft they use to AMS?

Distance from airport to center AMS: 72 km. Keep in mind that the highway to AMS is congested in the morning/afternoon peak hour. The ANWB (Dutch auto club): 56 minutes. I doubt it. Alternative one can take a taxi to Rotterdam Central railway station to take a train there. Intercity train 1h13min. One can take the Intercity Direct, 41min but must buy a ticket/reservation which takes time at the ticket office.


Isn't there a direct bus connection between RTM and Rotterdam Central Station? Tickets for the Intercity Direct can also be bought online, no need to go to the ticket office. But indeed, travel in the Randstad can be a hussle as it is very overcrowded.
 
LCKip
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:51 pm

Eindhoven wrote:
LCKip wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
Also I was meant to say about RTM Is how far is it away from AMS because if it's a small distance then United may consider it. With United getting B77Ws won't they just put them on? What's the current aircraft they use to AMS?

Distance from airport to center AMS: 72 km. Keep in mind that the highway to AMS is congested in the morning/afternoon peak hour. The ANWB (Dutch auto club): 56 minutes. I doubt it. Alternative one can take a taxi to Rotterdam Central railway station to take a train there. Intercity train 1h13min. One can take the Intercity Direct, 41min but must buy a ticket/reservation which takes time at the ticket office.


Isn't there a direct bus connection between RTM and Rotterdam Central Station? Tickets for the Intercity Direct can also be bought online, no need to go to the ticket office. But indeed, travel in the Randstad can be a hussle as it is very overcrowded.

Yes, there is a bus 33 to central station, 25 minutes. Buying a ticket is online too but maybe difficult for foreigners who are not familiar wirh our railways.
 
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Coal
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:13 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I'm surprised none of the New York carriers have looked into Antwerp. 85% of the world's diamonds get traded through that city, and New York is another major centre of the industry. Lots of potential for couriers and high security cargo.

I can tell you that diamonds from Canadian mines travel to Antwerp on private jets, not commercial.
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:24 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
UA70/71 is operated by a 763 in the summer schedule so that would be even more restrictive. Plus they will lose all inbound and outbound connecting pax at AMS which are quite a lot each day.
Martijn

Thanks
 
factsonly
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:51 pm

This story sounds a little wild.

If UA wishes to offer more capacity EWR-AMS they can simply upgrade from:

- B757 -> to B763
- B763 -> to B764
- B764 -> to B772
- B772 -> to B773

Currently UA is still at step 1 for EWR-AMS, from B757 in W16 to B763 in S17.
So there is plenty of room for capacity enhancement on EWR-AMS, forget the cost of a separate operation EWR-RTM.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:00 pm

Highly unlikely, but it would be nice to see other fields operating flights to US. Eindhoven would be a great contender, large catchment area and a young international population in Eindhoven itself. One of the most innovative regions in the world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:41 am

thijs1984 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Is there a terrain issue at RTM? If not, 2200 meters is plenty for a flight to NYC on a 752; it's about 200 meters more than BRS has, for instance.


no not at all. there arn't any mountains or high rise buildings in the approach of runway 06-24

the runway is longer than the one of SXM (if i remember correctly)



According to Wikipedia, Sint Maarten (SXM) is 7546 feet and Rotterdam (RTM) is 7218 feet.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:56 am

Sand0rf wrote:
And as United doesn't operate a full economy version the MTOW for their 757's should be a bit lower.

...drop the M.

Number of seats wouldn't affect MTOW.
ZFW and TOW, but not MTOW. ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
joeljack
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:36 am

kgaiflyer wrote:
thijs1984 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Is there a terrain issue at RTM? If not, 2200 meters is plenty for a flight to NYC on a 752; it's about 200 meters more than BRS has, for instance.


no not at all. there arn't any mountains or high rise buildings in the approach of runway 06-24

the runway is longer than the one of SXM (if i remember correctly)



According to Wikipedia, Sint Maarten (SXM) is 7546 feet and Rotterdam (RTM) is 7218 feet.


LIH is only 6,500 ft long and United flies nonstop to Denver at 3,414 miles. RTM-EWR is only 238 miles further and the runway is 718 feet longer. In addition, there are good alternates on RTM-EWR going both ways in case of a fuel emergency.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:36 am

joeljack wrote:
LIH is only 6,500 ft long and United flies nonstop to Denver at 3,414 miles. RTM-EWR is only 238 miles further and the runway is 718 feet longer. In addition, there are good alternates on RTM-EWR going both ways in case of a fuel emergency.

Hawaii operations have favorable winds off the short runway (LIH), headwinds on the eastbound which is unhampered by runway issues. RTM is the opposite, short runway on the segment with the headwind challenges.
 
Sand0rf
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:41 am

Well, you can select Rotterdam in the search engine on the United website. Although no fares show up for October, November or December this might be a indication that there is more to it then we might think at this moment...

Image
 
runway23
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:55 am

Sand0rf wrote:
Well, you can select Rotterdam in the search engine on the United website. Although no fares show up for October, November or December this might be a indication that there is more to it then we might think at this moment...

Image


The same thing happens if you put any airport. For example Berne does the same. Yet BRN's runway is too short to ever see United. This rumor is ridiculous.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:04 am

As long as they can find a connecting airport and a feeder airline they can book it. It wouldn't be the cheapest and it would certainly not be a direct flight, but nothing is impossible.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:12 am

I don't see UA expanding much into Europe this year. Several routes have already been dropped (EWR-OSL, IAD-MAN, BFS) or are going seasonal (EWR-HAM), and the only major addition this summer off the top of my head is SFO-MUC on UA metal. The euro is weak, the dollar is strong, low cost long haul is expanding, loads are a little lighter, and yields are low across the board on all TATL carriers. I don't think we'll see huge cuts from anyone this year, but UA doesn't seem to be too interested in riskier international expansion right now.

If UA were to add secondary Europe again, they would probably restart some of the UK and Ireland routes, CPH, OSL, CGN, or DUS before adding never-before-served destinations, let alone jumping into anyplace like RTM.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
godbless
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Re: Rumor: United to RTM

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:03 pm

It would be a great step forward for RTM if they would have a link to a hub to begin with. Just within the last year they lost their flights to IST (TK) and MUC (LH/bmi). A bit longer ago they already lost their link to LHR on BA.

I always wonder if RTM suffers from being run by the same company that also runs AMS...

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