BrianWilkes
Posts: 39
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:07 am

In 5 to 10 years from now Air Italy will be the country's number one airline. Alitalia might even ceased to exist!
 
Blerg
Posts: 2053
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:58 pm

Maybe Alitalia should have gone for Cape Town, Austrian is increasing it to 3 weekly this winter. I guess less competition is helping boost their yields.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8867
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:15 pm

Without a much bigger stake, DL are just along for the ride.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1068
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:34 pm

BrianWilkes wrote:
In 5 to 10 years from now Air Italy will be the country's number one airline. Alitalia might even ceased to exist!

Political influence will never permit that. Shutting down Alitalia would be political suicide.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:25 am

mxaxai wrote:
BrianWilkes wrote:
In 5 to 10 years from now Air Italy will be the country's number one airline. Alitalia might even ceased to exist!

Political influence will never permit that. Shutting down Alitalia would be political suicide.


It is very possible that after some arrangements what is today known as Air Italy will be the country's number one airline in the future - using Alitalia brand, burden and benefits, allocating its slots in anet.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 4363
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:59 pm

According to a paid French news site the AZ board plans following adjustments under Ferrovie dello Stato guidance.

> FCO primary hub
> LIN focus city
> Fleet reduced from current 117 to 102 in 2020
> Lease 3 777 and 13 additional Airbus family craft
> Domestic network reduced - 15 loss-making routes eliminated pushing pax to rail option instead (particularly from Milan region)
> Use freed LIN slots to refocus on premium European capital destinations
> Repurchase LHR slots for EUR €60m
> Introduction of short-haul premium product
> Routes to SCL, JNB, DEL terminated
> Introduce PVG and seasonal SFO from FCO
> Eliminate MXP longhaul except to USA. (JFK?)

Sounds interesting. Suppose with fleet and network cuts there will have to be staff adjustments also. Will the staff accept :scratchchin:
mercure f-wtcc
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:58 am

lesfalls wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Not only was JNB recently launched but it will also get a 5th weekly frequency this winter. Maybe the route is not unprofitable, maybe it's just not profitable enough.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-ns19/

If AZ is dropping JNB alongside IB then something just doesn't make sense as the flights for both carriers have been full but the yield supringly also is low then which is what doesn't make sense to me as JNB is quite a buisness city with good yield according to other network EU carriers which serve the city.


I have flown TXL-FCO-JNB in April (Easter weekend) this year. The aircraft was full - but tickets were extremely cheap compared to other EU carriers like LH / BA / AF / KL, even bookings just days in advance. And that was the reason why I booked them: 550,- EUR return compared to more than 975,- EUR (and more) with the above options.

Besides a very poor inflight service (including meals), another problem might be the aircraft sitting at JNB the entire day. Also they do not have codeshare agreements with local domestic airlines like Kulula or Safairfly as AF/KL do, besides LH with SA and obviously BA with BA (Comair).
 
Blerg
Posts: 2053
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:44 am

> Fleet reduced from current 117 to 102 in 2020
> Lease 3 777 and 13 additional Airbus family craft

These are two most interesting parts. I wonder what 15 aircraft they plan of retiring, or that is 18 if they plan on adding 3 B777. I see they have 15 E75 in their fleet, maybe they plan on removing those?

I remember reading that they were extremely happy with their B773, I suppose that's the one they would be adding in stead of the -200 variant.

This is their current fleet:

A319: 22
A320: 38
A321: 11
A332: 14
B772: 11
B773: 1
E75: 15
E90: 5
 
bennett123
Posts: 8867
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:00 am

If they are reducing the domestic network then that would make sense.

Now let’s see how this plan pans out.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 2362
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:13 am

I guess all the LIN southern domestic flights will now involve transiting FCO. Rail isn't an option for Calabria/Sicily as there's no high speed line south of Salerno. I still anticipate to see an AZ 319 in "frecciablu" colours lol
 
AZa346
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 am

eta unknown wrote:
I guess all the LIN southern domestic flights will now involve transiting FCO. Rail isn't an option for Calabria/Sicily as there's no high speed line south of Salerno.


I think they will keep those destinations non stop ,otherwhise people will just fly Air Italy , Ryanair and easyJet thar all offer non stop flights
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:34 am

Blerg wrote:
> Fleet reduced from current 117 to 102 in 2020
> Lease 3 777 and 13 additional Airbus family craft

These are two most interesting parts. I wonder what 15 aircraft they plan of retiring, or that is 18 if they plan on adding 3 B777. I see they have 15 E75 in their fleet, maybe they plan on removing those?

AZ is launching daily LIN-STR in Winter 2019/20, supposedly with E75. Would be odd to launch a new route - in winter no less - only to retire the aircraft type by next season. They could upgauge, actually they should to be competitive with U2 & EW, but I'm not sure if the demand supports that.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:48 am

The E175's will go by next spring. I read it somewhere.

Edit, in the ilsole article linked above, it says that the E175's will be gone by January 2020.
 
J343
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:53 am

What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:59 am

J343 wrote:
What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?
With DL on board? I'd say zero.

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
AZa346
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:05 am

J343 wrote:
What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?

Not only the Delta's investments, but also the fact that IB and BA codeshare with Air Italy and that they share the Avios programme make it very unlikely
 
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vhtje
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:33 am

J343 wrote:
What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?


Zero. QR owns 15.1% of IAG and 49% of Air Italy.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:45 am

BrianWilkes wrote:
In 5 to 10 years from now Air Italy will be the country's number one airline. Alitalia might even ceased to exist!


I doubt it, they will no longer acquire the Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner, their only stable routes with JFK and MIA, the others cancel them and they change and cancel, they do not have a short route network, possibly they will happen again to be a leisure airline
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:49 am

mercure1 wrote:
According to a paid French news site the AZ board plans following adjustments under Ferrovie dello Stato guidance.

> FCO primary hub
> LIN focus city
> Fleet reduced from current 117 to 102 in 2020
> Lease 3 777 and 13 additional Airbus family craft
> Domestic network reduced - 15 loss-making routes eliminated pushing pax to rail option instead (particularly from Milan region)
> Use freed LIN slots to refocus on premium European capital destinations
> Repurchase LHR slots for EUR €60m
> Introduction of short-haul premium product
> Routes to SCL, JNB, DEL terminated
> Introduce PVG and seasonal SFO from FCO
> Eliminate MXP longhaul except to USA. (JFK?)

Sounds interesting. Suppose with fleet and network cuts there will have to be staff adjustments also. Will the staff accept :scratchchin:



I think it should be with the seasonal routes, it would be crazy to eliminate MXP-NRT!
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:33 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
According to a paid French news site the AZ board plans following adjustments under Ferrovie dello Stato guidance.

> FCO primary hub
> LIN focus city
> Fleet reduced from current 117 to 102 in 2020
> Lease 3 777 and 13 additional Airbus family craft
> Domestic network reduced - 15 loss-making routes eliminated pushing pax to rail option instead (particularly from Milan region)
> Use freed LIN slots to refocus on premium European capital destinations
> Repurchase LHR slots for EUR €60m
> Introduction of short-haul premium product
> Routes to SCL, JNB, DEL terminated
> Introduce PVG and seasonal SFO from FCO
> Eliminate MXP longhaul except to USA. (JFK?)

Sounds interesting. Suppose with fleet and network cuts there will have to be staff adjustments also. Will the staff accept :scratchchin:



I think it should be with the seasonal routes, it would be crazy to eliminate MXP-NRT!
If they do it, they'll lose the rights which will be promptly picked up by Air Italy, even if it implies canceling an already scheduled route...

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
carljanderson
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:05 pm

When is this final? If this ownership stake is approved, is it safe to assume that AZ will be written into the pending JV between DL/AF/KL/VS? AZ is mentioned in a footnote as being not part of the new JV due to ownership changes.

Tangentially, when is the DOT expected to decide? Its been just over one year.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5436
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:35 pm

The U.S. DOT is done when it says it's done. There is no deadline.

The financial transaction can be done when necessary approvals have been granted. I couldn't even outline all of those.
 
J343
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:18 pm

AZa346 wrote:
J343 wrote:
What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?

Not only the Delta's investments, but also the fact that IB and BA codeshare with Air Italy and that they share the Avios programme make it very unlikely


Thank you! Somehow I forgot that Air Italy existed and is part of the Avios programme and codeshares with BA and IB
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:19 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The E175's will go by next spring. I read it somewhere.

Edit, in the ilsole article linked above, it says that the E175's will be gone by January 2020.

I don't understand Italian but Google Translate would suggest the exact opposite.
Fleet. As of January 1, 2020, 15 Embraer 175 (regional jets) and, in the long haul, two Airbus 330s (from 14 to 12) and the only Boeing 777-300 (11 B777-200) remain. Progress is not indicated in subsequent years, but only in 2023, when there will be 11 A330s and 14 B777-200s. In the short range the increase in Airbus 319 is expected: from 22 in 2018 to 24 in 2020 and 29 in 2023.

Or should it say "will be removed" rather than "remain"? That would then also mean that the 77W will leave the fleet.
 
J343
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:20 pm

vhtje wrote:
J343 wrote:
What are the chances of IAG acquiring AZ?


Zero. QR owns 15.1% of IAG and 49% of Air Italy.


Right. Thank you! As I have replied to one user, I forgot that Air Italy even existed! LOL.
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:46 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The E175's will go by next spring. I read it somewhere.

Edit, in the ilsole article linked above, it says that the E175's will be gone by January 2020.

I don't understand Italian but Google Translate would suggest the exact opposite.
Fleet. As of January 1, 2020, 15 Embraer 175 (regional jets) and, in the long haul, two Airbus 330s (from 14 to 12) and the only Boeing 777-300 (11 B777-200) remain. Progress is not indicated in subsequent years, but only in 2023, when there will be 11 A330s and 14 B777-200s. In the short range the increase in Airbus 319 is expected: from 22 in 2018 to 24 in 2020 and 29 in 2023.

Or should it say "will be removed" rather than "remain"? That would then also mean that the 77W will leave the fleet.
I'm a native Italian speaker. Indeed it's stated that those planes will be removed from the fleet ("è prevista l'uscita" >> "it's scheduled the leave").

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
User avatar
jsnww81
Posts: 2510
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:09 pm

eta unknown wrote:
I guess all the LIN southern domestic flights will now involve transiting FCO. Rail isn't an option for Calabria/Sicily as there's no high speed line south of Salerno. I still anticipate to see an AZ 319 in "frecciablu" colours lol


Yes - I was surprised to see the Linate domestic flights up for removal. Linate slots are precious and I'm sure they can find good use for them to other European capitals, but there is definitely a need to keep the southernmost destinations (PMO, CTA, REG, SUF etc.) linked to Milan. Will be interesting to see what they cut - I'm guessing the Trieste flights will be gone. Unsure about the Sardinian cities - I'm guessing Olbia and Alghero are mostly leisure pax.
 
FatCat
Posts: 910
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:49 am

jsnww81 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
I guess all the LIN southern domestic flights will now involve transiting FCO. Rail isn't an option for Calabria/Sicily as there's no high speed line south of Salerno. I still anticipate to see an AZ 319 in "frecciablu" colours lol


Yes - I was surprised to see the Linate domestic flights up for removal. Linate slots are precious and I'm sure they can find good use for them to other European capitals, but there is definitely a need to keep the southernmost destinations (PMO, CTA, REG, SUF etc.) linked to Milan. Will be interesting to see what they cut - I'm guessing the Trieste flights will be gone. Unsure about the Sardinian cities - I'm guessing Olbia and Alghero are mostly leisure pax.

They also have the regional protection agreement to respect, for Sardinia.
Regional protection is more or less like flying NRP. But planes for Sardinia are quite always nearly full, so they help increase the average occupancy - a thing that is given to eat at the general press every now and then. Whilst LIN-FCO occupancy is falling... those were the days, when AZ's MD82s were soaring the skies full of businessmen and women (well, mostly politicians, who do not pay a dime, or better, they pay, but not with their money) between Italy's two Capital cities... now the frequencies are fallen, and those flights are mostly operated with E175s... not a high density capable plane... if you think that between MUC or FRA and TXL LH operated the A346 and even a B744 last year...
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
konkret
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:41 pm

FatCat wrote:
... if you think that between MUC or FRA and TXL LH operated the A346 and even a B744 last year...


LH did it to provide extra capacity after AB bankruptcy
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:42 am

jsnww81 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
I guess all the LIN southern domestic flights will now involve transiting FCO. Rail isn't an option for Calabria/Sicily as there's no high speed line south of Salerno. I still anticipate to see an AZ 319 in "frecciablu" colours lol


Yes - I was surprised to see the Linate domestic flights up for removal. Linate slots are precious and I'm sure they can find good use for them to other European capitals, but there is definitely a need to keep the southernmost destinations (PMO, CTA, REG, SUF etc.) linked to Milan. Will be interesting to see what they cut - I'm guessing the Trieste flights will be gone. Unsure about the Sardinian cities - I'm guessing Olbia and Alghero are mostly leisure pax.


AZ clearly doesnt know what to do with LIN.
European premium destinations are definitely not the answer.

If I were AZ, I would restore the air bridge with FCO with A321's every half an hour and make sure that Milan people have a smooth and easy access to the only hub in FCO.
People from downtown Milan can be in Rome faster than they are in MXP.

This the only way to avoid the endless outflow to CDG, LHR, AMS, FRA, ZRH, MUC where pax connect to long haul destinations.

If I were AZ, LIN would be a major gateway for a bigger long haul network.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2362
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:25 am

And as usual we ignore all the above come ts about convenient fast trains and LIN restricted to EU flights only, no longhaul permitted.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5436
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:33 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
If I were AZ, I would restore the air bridge with FCO with A321's every half an hour and make sure that Milan people have a smooth and easy access to the only hub in FCO.


A check of the schedule for a November Monday shows 21 AZ flights LIN-FCO, some as little as 20 minutes apart. That would seem to be adequate - hardly the source of difficulties.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:00 pm

Cannot believe this thread was started over 2yrs ago and seems no end is in sight.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2362
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:39 pm

It's because the mods wont allow a monthly AZ thread, instead preferring the AZ topic to be one giant heap lol
 
Blerg
Posts: 2053
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:27 pm

eta unknown wrote:
It's because the mods wont allow a monthly AZ thread, instead preferring the AZ topic to be one giant heap lol


It's only appropriate for the thread to be a never-ending mess just like the airline. :D
 
YIMBY
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:35 pm

IMO, a new thread should be created when there is a significant change, e.g. requiring to rewrite the title. This goes on as usual....
 
hinckley
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:19 pm

I don't know . . . this is actually one of my favorite a.net threads. It's great being able to look back at all of AZ's new business plans, each one with a.nutters claiming AZ's future is finally secured. lol
 
IADFCO
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:19 am

hinckley wrote:
I don't know . . . this is actually one of my favorite a.net threads. It's great being able to look back at all of AZ's new business plans, each one with a.nutters claiming AZ's future is finally secured. lol

...or that AZ will finally go bankrupt in the next x weeks!

Too bad Alitalia never had 757s, A380s, or MAXes, so we cannot say in this thread that Boeing should restart the 757 line, that Airbus should come up with an A380neo, and that the MAX is the safest airplane/worst death trap ever! :stirthepot:
 
hinckley
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:38 am

IADFCO wrote:
hinckley wrote:
I don't know . . . this is actually one of my favorite a.net threads. It's great being able to look back at all of AZ's new business plans, each one with a.nutters claiming AZ's future is finally secured. lol

...or that AZ will finally go bankrupt in the next x weeks!

Right, right. THIS TIME for sure. :lol:

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