Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:31 pm

Lufthansa back in the game. Says willing to invest €150-200m. Some meetings scheduled next week in FRA.

Lufthansa ready to invest up to 200 million euros in Alitalia
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1XA0T8
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
iseeyyc
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:06 pm

Image
 
Blerg
Posts: 3958
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:39 am

Is Lufthansa really serious about Alitalia? Could it be some form of a trick to delay even more the whole privatization process? After all, if anything, this situation suits LH perfectly. A well organized Italian carrier would be a great threat to them, especially for ZRH and MUC.

LH has its hands full with OS, VIE, EW and SN. If they failed to turn SN around what do they expect to do with AZ? Not to mention that Italian unions are much more wild than the Belgian ones.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:18 am

Seems AZ and money do not go very well. It's one thing to invest and get a return, but serms with AZ you might as well burn it!!

Very weird situation where numerous entities have tried to turnaround to no avail!!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7732
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:26 am

TYWoolman wrote:

Alitalia has lost money for many many years. No one of the many reformers have been able to meaningfully change this. The reforms needed to fix Alitalia are impossible. Delta not throwing away money is smart. You should not be shocked; you should respect their wise decision.

Perhapd it is wise. I guess keeping it at 100 million is the way for Delta to force Alitalia to make tough decisions on it's own without Delta explicitly stipulating them.


A $50 million or $100 million smaller investment from DL vs. LH isn't going to change Alitalia's behavior. They are professionals - among the very best - at losing money long-term. You're really just talking another month or two of operating losses in LH's larger prospective investment.

IMHO DL is hesitant to boost its investment because it sees little chance for return. Ferrovia dello Stato wants to check out LH in hopes of securing weaker or more flexible restructuring demands. Good luck with that - LH isn't stupid. All the while AZ keeps burning ~$50 million/month...
 
Scotron12
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Alitalia has lost money for many many years. No one of the many reformers have been able to meaningfully change this. The reforms needed to fix Alitalia are impossible. Delta not throwing away money is smart. You should not be shocked; you should respect their wise decision.

Perhapd it is wise. I guess keeping it at 100 million is the way for Delta to force Alitalia to make tough decisions on it's own without Delta explicitly stipulating them.


A $50 million or $100 million smaller investment from DL vs. LH isn't going to change Alitalia's behavior. They are professionals - among the very best - at losing money long-term. You're really just talking another month or two of operating losses in LH's larger prospective investment.

IMHO DL is hesitant to boost its investment because it sees little chance for return. Ferrovia dello Stato wants to check out LH in hopes of securing weaker or more flexible restructuring demands. Good luck with that - LH isn't stupid. All the while AZ keeps burning ~$50 million/month...


Im sure DL and LH have done their sums in going over the pros and cons of involvement in AZ.

Where is the problem...is it bad network..bad fleet..not enough O&D business traffic and too much leisure?

There has to be some fundamental reason that AZ has consistantly lost money over decades.
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Alitalia: why doesn't fail?

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:53 am

Ciao to all.
As Italian, and living in Rome, i should not say this but after so many years of money thrown to the wind me, and all the Italian taxpayers, are really bothered of "Alitalia soap opera".
Alitalia is struggling to survive since about 10 years; once Italia flag carrier, it was really powerful and great until mid years 90's (fantastic the Business Class on the B747-200, with original Italian food and wines...). Then the decline: billions of lira, then millions of euro paid by Italian taxpayers to make the airline surviving, with dozens of CEO's changing in few years, each time kicked out with millionaire salaries, never paying for their disasters.I just tell you that for Rome - Albenga route, 5 time a week, Alitalia used an MD-80 flying with two pilots, the cabin crew and a single (1) passenger!!!
Since 2008 Alitalia costed 10 billion euro, it is losing 700.000 euro a day, on October 31st there has been the second "bridge loan" of 450 million euro... Europe is investigating if this can be considered State Aid...
There are some airlines interested (Delta, Lufthansa, easyJet) but the situation is not good for many reasons:
1) Alitalia means Italy, a country where corruption, bribes, Mafia are still vital;
2) Unions are very often blind, they are divided and tend to defebd lobbies and personal privileges; typical for them, when Titanic is sinking, worrying about the ship paint...
3) while important airlines like Swissair and Sabena failed when they had to fail (unfortunately, of course), Alitalia continued to fly thanks to us taxpayers, without a real reorganization and without learning from the many mistakes of the past. Money came anyway, why worry?
4) Shameful, crazy Italian bureaucracy, one of the many Italian "cancers", where to delete A law you must go from A to B, from B to C, then return to A passing through point 1 (corruption, bribes, etc).
During the years Alitalia has it all wrong:
- no development of long haul routes, especially in those countries with a strong Italia presence like South America, North America, Australia;
- continuing to fly short-medium haul routes clearly losing money;
- wanting a competition with low cost and ultra low cost airlines as easyJet, Ryanair, Wizz Air, very strong in the European market, becoming an hybrid.
The competition with LCC has to be taken seriously: Alitalia can't compete with Ryanair in a domestic and/or international route, where Alitalia ticket costs 150 euro offering nothing while Ryanair offers the same seat at 15 euro offering nothing the same!
- Unions without a view and, especially, without a view of the future!
- Inflight employees (pilots and cabin crews) that wanted to be paid the same money even working less hours.
- Last but no least the deal with Etihad Airways.
Etc. etc. etc.

Delta was/could be interested in buying part of Alitalia, the good/healthy part, with some intercontinental routes and the slots in the various airports.
Lufthansa just said that they will enter in Alitalia (buying the airline) if:
- administrative reorganization
- big reduction of the fleet
- big reduction of connections
- big reduction of employees
- big reduction of air/ground crews and pilots salaries
- big reduction of the costs
- a deal with the many Unions about employees

The soap opera continues and the Italian taxpayers continue to throw money...
Last edited by crazy on Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2134
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:15 am

Because of #4. Beauracracy and the inability to make a decision that may be detrimental in the short term, but beneficial long term.

Alitalia is the Air India or Malaysia Airlines of Europe (or vice versa?), aimlessly burning taxpayer money as the stupidest option is the easiest one.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24502
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:22 am

Delta getting cold feet.
Might drop out as it does not want to be involved in bidding contest against Lufthansa.


Delta Air Lines May Pull Out of Alitalia Bidding
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... riere-says
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Prost
Posts: 2569
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:40 am

I’m surprised Delta got this far. I don’t see the value to Delta.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 971
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:25 am

Prost wrote:
... I don’t see the value to Delta.

A part of the "value calculation" is an assumption of "what if" a competent competitor takes over AZ?
In a scenario, where DL and AZ are there, and nobody else is even remotely interested, DL might have preferred AZ "restructuring saga" to continue forever. But this is not this scenario.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2802
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:58 am

And the rhapsody continues...
Govt: Al-ital-ia, Al-ital-ia... You're just a poor airline from a poor overstaffed family
LH: Let them go...
Govt: NO! We will not let them go!
 
LMFNINJA
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: Alitalia: why doesn't fail?

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:02 am

crazy wrote:
Ciao to all.
As Italian, and living in Rome, i should not say this but after so many years of money thrown to the wind me, and all the Italian taxpayers, are really bothered of "Alitalia soap opera".
Alitalia is struggling to survive since about 10 years; once Italia flag carrier, it was really powerful and great until mid years 90's (fantastic the Business Class on the B747-200, with original Italian food and wines...). Then the decline: billions of lira, then millions of euro paid by Italian taxpayers to make the airline surviving, with dozens of CEO's changing in few years, each time kicked out with millionaire salaries, never paying for their disasters.I just tell you that for Rome - Albenga route, 5 time a week, Alitalia used an MD-80 flying with two pilots, the cabin crew and a single (1) passenger!!!
Since 2008 Alitalia costed 10 billion euro, it is losing 700.000 euro a day, on October 31st there has been the second "bridge loan" of 450 million euro... Europe is investigating if this can be considered State Aid...
There are some airlines interested (Delta, Lufthansa, easyJet) but the situation is not good for many reasons:
1) Alitalia means Italy, a country where corruption, bribes, Mafia are still vital;
2) Unions are very often blind, they are divided and tend to defebd lobbies and personal privileges; typical for them, when Titanic is sinking, worrying about the ship paint...
3) while important airlines like Swissair and Sabena failed when they had to fail (unfortunately, of course), Alitalia continued to fly thanks to us taxpayers, without a real reorganization and without learning from the many mistakes of the past. Money came anyway, why worry?
4) Shameful, crazy Italian bureaucracy, one of the many Italian "cancers", where to delete A law you must go from A to B, from B to C, then return to A passing through point 1 (corruption, bribes, etc).
During the years Alitalia has it all wrong:
- no development of long haul routes, especially in those countries with a strong Italia presence like South America, North America, Australia;
- continuing to fly short-medium haul routes clearly losing money;
- wanting a competition with low cost and ultra low cost airlines as easyJet, Ryanair, Wizz Air, very strong in the European market, becoming an hybrid.
The competition with LCC has to be taken seriously: Alitalia can't compete with Ryanair in a domestic and/or international route, where Alitalia ticket costs 150 euro offering nothing while Ryanair offers the same seat at 15 euro offering nothing the same!
- Unions without a view and, especially, without a view of the future!
- Inflight employees (pilots and cabin crews) that wanted to be paid the same money even working less hours.
- Last but no least the deal with Etihad Airways.
Etc. etc. etc.

Delta was/could be interested in buying part of Alitalia, the good/healthy part, with some intercontinental routes and the slots in the various airports.
Lufthansa just said that they will enter in Alitalia (buying the airline) if:
- administrative reorganization
- big reduction of the fleet
- big reduction of connections
- big reduction of employees
- big reduction of air/ground crews and pilots salaries
- big reduction of the costs
- a deal with the many Unions about employees

The soap opera continues and the Italian taxpayers continue to throw money...

Excellent post. Enjoyed your perspective. Grazie.
 
steman
Posts: 1636
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Alitalia: why doesn't fail?

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:26 am

crazy wrote:
Ciao to all.
As Italian, and living in Rome, i should not say this but after so many years of money thrown to the wind me, and all the Italian taxpayers, are really bothered of "Alitalia soap opera".
Alitalia is struggling to survive since about 10 years; once Italia flag carrier, it was really powerful and great until mid years 90's (fantastic the Business Class on the B747-200, with original Italian food and wines...). Then the decline: billions of lira, then millions of euro paid by Italian taxpayers to make the airline surviving, with dozens of CEO's changing in few years, each time kicked out with millionaire salaries, never paying for their disasters.I just tell you that for Rome - Albenga route, 5 time a week, Alitalia used an MD-80 flying with two pilots, the cabin crew and a single (1) passenger!!!
Since 2008 Alitalia costed 10 billion euro, it is losing 700.000 euro a day, on October 31st there has been the second "bridge loan" of 450 million euro... Europe is investigating if this can be considered State Aid...
There are some airlines interested (Delta, Lufthansa, easyJet) but the situation is not good for many reasons:
1) Alitalia means Italy, a country where corruption, bribes, Mafia are still vital;
2) Unions are very often blind, they are divided and tend to defebd lobbies and personal privileges; typical for them, when Titanic is sinking, worrying about the ship paint...
3) while important airlines like Swissair and Sabena failed when they had to fail (unfortunately, of course), Alitalia continued to fly thanks to us taxpayers, without a real reorganization and without learning from the many mistakes of the past. Money came anyway, why worry?
4) Shameful, crazy Italian bureaucracy, one of the many Italian "cancers", where to delete A law you must go from A to B, from B to C, then return to A passing through point 1 (corruption, bribes, etc).
During the years Alitalia has it all wrong:
- no development of long haul routes, especially in those countries with a strong Italia presence like South America, North America, Australia;
- continuing to fly short-medium haul routes clearly losing money;
- wanting a competition with low cost and ultra low cost airlines as easyJet, Ryanair, Wizz Air, very strong in the European market, becoming an hybrid.
The competition with LCC has to be taken seriously: Alitalia can't compete with Ryanair in a domestic and/or international route, where Alitalia ticket costs 150 euro offering nothing while Ryanair offers the same seat at 15 euro offering nothing the same!
- Unions without a view and, especially, without a view of the future!
- Inflight employees (pilots and cabin crews) that wanted to be paid the same money even working less hours.
- Last but no least the deal with Etihad Airways.
Etc. etc. etc.

Delta was/could be interested in buying part of Alitalia, the good/healthy part, with some intercontinental routes and the slots in the various airports.
Lufthansa just said that they will enter in Alitalia (buying the airline) if:
- administrative reorganization
- big reduction of the fleet
- big reduction of connections
- big reduction of employees
- big reduction of air/ground crews and pilots salaries
- big reduction of the costs
- a deal with the many Unions about employees

The soap opera continues and the Italian taxpayers continue to throw money...


I agree on most of your points but I have to say that Alitalia was never powerful or great. At best it was a medium sized flag carrier, never on par with the likes of LH, AF, BA, KL, SR etc.
If I´m not wrong in over 70 years of history it posted a profit in only a couple of occasions. For most of its history it had a very small long haul fleet with most destinations served only a couple of times per week and with non direct flights.
On the other hand, after the many restructuring and change of ownership of the past 10 years, it now has a decent long haul network, not many destinations but all of almost all served daily. Quality has improved a lot, at least that´s what can be read on italian forums.
I don´t know how much more they could expand on long haul, since the most profitable routes out of FCO and MXP are already served by better run and established competitors.
The short haul can´t compete with the likes of FR and U2 but that´s the case for most European legacy carriers. AZ short haul should cater to the long haul network and serve those routes with a high business (i.o. leisure) component. Add in some regional and national routes and here you have the current AZ short/medium haul network.
I honestly can´t see how much better they could do in terms of network development considering the struggles and challenges they face.
The Italian market is in the hands of foreign airlines. It will be very hard to gain it back, even if the Company would be run efficiently.

In other Countries a Company like Alitalia would have been shut down decades ago, probably shortly after deregulation. But we´re talking about Italy, where Alitalia is still regarded as a tool and reservoir of votes and favours for politicians, unionists, lobbies, etc. Therefore it will never be allowed to fail.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia: why doesn't fail?

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:14 am

crazy wrote:
Ciao to all.
As Italian, and living in Rome, i should not say this but after so many years of money thrown to the wind me, and all the Italian taxpayers, are really bothered of "Alitalia soap opera".
Alitalia is struggling to survive since about 10 years; once Italia flag carrier, it was really powerful and great until mid years 90's (fantastic the Business Class on the B747-200, with original Italian food and wines...). Then the decline: billions of lira, then millions of euro paid by Italian taxpayers to make the airline surviving, with dozens of CEO's changing in few years, each time kicked out with millionaire salaries, never paying for their disasters.I just tell you that for Rome - Albenga route, 5 time a week, Alitalia used an MD-80 flying with two pilots, the cabin crew and a single (1) passenger!!!
Since 2008 Alitalia costed 10 billion euro, it is losing 700.000 euro a day, on October 31st there has been the second "bridge loan" of 450 million euro... Europe is investigating if this can be considered State Aid...
There are some airlines interested (Delta, Lufthansa, easyJet) but the situation is not good for many reasons:
1) Alitalia means Italy, a country where corruption, bribes, Mafia are still vital;
2) Unions are very often blind, they are divided and tend to defebd lobbies and personal privileges; typical for them, when Titanic is sinking, worrying about the ship paint...
3) while important airlines like Swissair and Sabena failed when they had to fail (unfortunately, of course), Alitalia continued to fly thanks to us taxpayers, without a real reorganization and without learning from the many mistakes of the past. Money came anyway, why worry?
4) Shameful, crazy Italian bureaucracy, one of the many Italian "cancers", where to delete A law you must go from A to B, from B to C, then return to A passing through point 1 (corruption, bribes, etc).
During the years Alitalia has it all wrong:
- no development of long haul routes, especially in those countries with a strong Italia presence like South America, North America, Australia;
- continuing to fly short-medium haul routes clearly losing money;
- wanting a competition with low cost and ultra low cost airlines as easyJet, Ryanair, Wizz Air, very strong in the European market, becoming an hybrid.
The competition with LCC has to be taken seriously: Alitalia can't compete with Ryanair in a domestic and/or international route, where Alitalia ticket costs 150 euro offering nothing while Ryanair offers the same seat at 15 euro offering nothing the same!
- Unions without a view and, especially, without a view of the future!
- Inflight employees (pilots and cabin crews) that wanted to be paid the same money even working less hours.
- Last but no least the deal with Etihad Airways.
Etc. etc. etc.

Delta was/could be interested in buying part of Alitalia, the good/healthy part, with some intercontinental routes and the slots in the various airports.
Lufthansa just said that they will enter in Alitalia (buying the airline) if:
- administrative reorganization
- big reduction of the fleet
- big reduction of connections
- big reduction of employees
- big reduction of air/ground crews and pilots salaries
- big reduction of the costs
- a deal with the many Unions about employees

The soap opera continues and the Italian taxpayers continue to throw money...



I disagree.
Alitalia is a cheap motor for the Italian economy.

From the perspective of the Italian Republic, Alitalia directly and indirectly employs 50.000 people. Think of those 50.000 jobs as civil servants. Those 50.000 people would cost more to maintain under social wellfare programs and would not contribute positively to the economy, while they do under AZ.
So in the big picture it makes sense.

If you look at how heavily most European countries are subsidising their poorly run public transportation systems, AZ could be considered a model.

Granted, compared to other airlines, AZ is not financially self-sustaining.

This being said, in the right hands, AZ could become self-sustaining.

LH are not the right hands, since they have failed to turn around BD, OS, SN and EW. Rounds and rounds of cost-cuts have not or are not working and I think that AZ, considering the other failing subsidiaries of the LH Group, could be a big enough weight to drag down the entire LH Group. Etihad can attest to that.
Giving AZ to LH would be like handing a box of matches to a young child.

DL is another story.
They are running a no-nonsense airline and at their current rate of profit and considering a 50% shareholding, they can sustain 10 years of AZ losses with the earnings from one quarter.
This combined with the no-nonsense business attitude, they can actually drive a major turn-around.
Show AZ employees how profit sharing works, the unions will be kicking their members in the butt inciting them to work harder.

In terms of business, AZ is failling because they are not differentiating themselves in a competitive market.
Do they have affordable prices? No.
Do they have a good product? No.
Do they offer good schedules and reliability? They do excel in thia arena but this alone is not sufficient when you have competitors that also offer good schedules and reliability, like Easyjet and Ryanair.

Their long haul flights do not connect well to short haul feeding flights. They used to, but not now.

In this industry, the profit is often in the detail.
All it takes sometimes is for the managers to stop procrastinating and start doing some real work.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:31 pm

Under DL, will there still be 50,000 employees?.

I expect that this is going to be crucial.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:57 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Under DL, will there still be 50,000 employees?.

I expect that this is going to be crucial.

DL would only invest $112 million. That minimizes the risk to DL Details might turn around AZ, it might be too late. LH bid substantially more. DL won't get into a bidding war.

DL won't be subsidizing Alitalia for decades. Delta offered a small sum, that is all. AF and KL are much more critical in Europe.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
panamair
Posts: 4278
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:00 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Under DL, will there still be 50,000 employees?.

I expect that this is going to be crucial.


I believe the DL plan envisages about 2,500 job losses and a fleet size of 103. The LH plan apparently wants to cut 5,000-6,000 jobs and keep AZ's fleet to 75 planes. However DL is only willing to invest EUR 100 to 120m, while LH is looking at a EUR 150m to 200m investment.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3345
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:15 pm

Crazy to think anyone wants to willingly invest in AZ.

EY’s efforts to make changes at AZ seemed to fail dismally, throwing cash at the problem constantly until its own accounts were running far drier, so not sure the appetite to change things will be any better this time.

LH has enough issues on its hands to get its structure right without trying to turn AZ around.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:21 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
Crazy to think anyone wants to willingly invest in AZ.

EY’s efforts to make changes at AZ seemed to fail dismally, throwing cash at the problem constantly until its own accounts were running far drier, so not sure the appetite to change things will be any better this time.

LH has enough issues on its hands to get its structure right without trying to turn AZ around.


Agreed, I can't think of a good reason to buy AZ. It would be an endless money-pit, and any attempt of cost cutting will be met with fierce resistance and strikes.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Under DL, will there still be 50,000 employees?.

I expect that this is going to be crucial.

DL would only invest $112 million. That minimizes the risk to DL Details might turn around AZ, it might be too late. LH bid substantially more. DL won't get into a bidding war.

DL won't be subsidizing Alitalia for decades. Delta offered a small sum, that is all. AF and KL are much more critical in Europe.

Lightsaber


It would be other thing if Delta could buy 100 % and get effective control, but they cannot own more than or not even equal to 50 % by EU rules and they cannot get effective control as that stays by the unions and the government, no matter whoever owns it.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7732
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:04 pm

IWMBH wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
Crazy to think anyone wants to willingly invest in AZ.

EY’s efforts to make changes at AZ seemed to fail dismally, throwing cash at the problem constantly until its own accounts were running far drier, so not sure the appetite to change things will be any better this time.

LH has enough issues on its hands to get its structure right without trying to turn AZ around.


Agreed, I can't think of a good reason to buy AZ. It would be an endless money-pit, and any attempt of cost cutting will be met with fierce resistance and strikes.


USA-Italy is a big revenue market -- bigger than USA-Brazil which attracted so much attention in this forum with the LATAM deal, and Delta's $2.25 Billion. I won't argue that 100 million Euros, or 150 million Eros, or 200 million Euros is the right DL investment in AZ.

Please don't try to argue that LATAM is more broadly about Latin America. With Aeromexico, DL already gets the biggest piece, and, apart from Brazil, only Colombia (#16, just behind Italy, and about half what we see from the Dominican Republic) among the rest of South America is in the top 25 for non-stop international passengers to the U.S.

Market Revenue Size from Delta's Dec. '17 Investor Day presentation (see slide 28): https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... y_2017.pdf

Mexico, $4.8 Billion and the number 3 market from the U.S.
Italy, $3.2 Billion, number 9
Brazil, $3.0 Billion, number 10
 
IWMBH
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
Crazy to think anyone wants to willingly invest in AZ.

EY’s efforts to make changes at AZ seemed to fail dismally, throwing cash at the problem constantly until its own accounts were running far drier, so not sure the appetite to change things will be any better this time.

LH has enough issues on its hands to get its structure right without trying to turn AZ around.


Agreed, I can't think of a good reason to buy AZ. It would be an endless money-pit, and any attempt of cost cutting will be met with fierce resistance and strikes.


USA-Italy is a big revenue market -- bigger than USA-Brazil which attracted so much attention in this forum with the LATAM deal, and Delta's $2.25 Billion. I won't argue that 100 million Euros, or 150 million Eros, or 200 million Euros is the right DL investment in AZ.

Please don't try to argue that LATAM is more broadly about Latin America. With Aeromexico, DL already gets the biggest piece, and, apart from Brazil, only Colombia (#16, just behind Italy, and about half what we see from the Dominican Republic) among the rest of South America is in the top 25 for non-stop international passengers to the U.S.

Market Revenue Size from Delta's Dec. '17 Investor Day presentation (see slide 28): https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... y_2017.pdf

Mexico, $4.8 Billion and the number 3 market from the U.S.
Italy, $3.2 Billion, number 9
Brazil, $3.0 Billion, number 10


Im not arguing with you on the importance of the Italian market, Im arguing that AZ is a bad investment.

They are burning thru millions in taxpayer money and all efforts to make the airline profitable have been met with stiff resistance https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... uring-plan

If you want a big part of the Italian market you're better of if you start something new.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 pm

IWMBH wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Agreed, I can't think of a good reason to buy AZ. It would be an endless money-pit, and any attempt of cost cutting will be met with fierce resistance and strikes.


USA-Italy is a big revenue market -- bigger than USA-Brazil which attracted so much attention in this forum with the LATAM deal, and Delta's $2.25 Billion. I won't argue that 100 million Euros, or 150 million Eros, or 200 million Euros is the right DL investment in AZ.

Please don't try to argue that LATAM is more broadly about Latin America. With Aeromexico, DL already gets the biggest piece, and, apart from Brazil, only Colombia (#16, just behind Italy, and about half what we see from the Dominican Republic) among the rest of South America is in the top 25 for non-stop international passengers to the U.S.

Market Revenue Size from Delta's Dec. '17 Investor Day presentation (see slide 28): https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... y_2017.pdf

Mexico, $4.8 Billion and the number 3 market from the U.S.
Italy, $3.2 Billion, number 9
Brazil, $3.0 Billion, number 10


Im not arguing with you on the importance of the Italian market, Im arguing that AZ is a bad investment.

They are burning thru millions in taxpayer money and all efforts to make the airline profitable have been met with stiff resistance https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... uring-plan

If you want a big part of the Italian market you're better of if you start something new.

DL was minimizing their exposure to maintain current profits. A reasonable investment. What DL is not willing to do is pay more, that should tell us the investment quality.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4642
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:26 pm

According to Italy's Il Sole 24 Ore, Alitalia will run out of cash to pay for salaries and fuel by December.

https://stream24.ilsole24ore.com/video/ ... no/ACOTedw
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:39 pm

dcajet wrote:
According to Italy's Il Sole 24 Ore, Alitalia will run out of cash to pay for salaries and fuel by December.

https://stream24.ilsole24ore.com/video/ ... no/ACOTedw


*Inserts taxpayer money*
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:07 pm

Of course, DL would be far better off investing in an Italian airline that can be proven to be self-sustaining.
Unfortunately that doesn't exist.
If they start from scratch, hundreds of millions will be lost in start-up losses. With AZ at least they have the certainty of knowing how much they are going to lose per day.

I understand DL's intent to limit its exposure. Perhaps they even want to invest more but in increments, to ensure that AZ does what it tells them to.
Now seeing their revenue exposure in Italy as shown above, I think that they really have no choice. The stakes are too high to let AZ fall in competing hands.
This being said, perhaps Air Italy would be a better investment for them if QR dumps it. Air Italy is much more manageable and flexible while their expsoure would be more limited compared to AZ.
I think that DL should offer 500 million for a 49% stake with defined conditions in terms of management, ie quasi carte blanche.
They can then also stick it to QR's Air Italy and increase cooperation with AF-KLM, but also KE and Latam.

Finally, we can hypothesise that AZ may not be as hard to turn around as we all assume. In the right hands, it could become a Golden Goose.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:12 pm

Weird they cannot make money...must be something very wrong.
 
vahancrazy
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:54 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:18 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Weird they cannot make money...must be something very wrong.


It depends how many salaries and bonus you want to pay on top of normal operations.

Italia represent Italian mafia, from an Italian point of view.
 
RvA
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
Crazy to think anyone wants to willingly invest in AZ.

EY’s efforts to make changes at AZ seemed to fail dismally, throwing cash at the problem constantly until its own accounts were running far drier, so not sure the appetite to change things will be any better this time.

LH has enough issues on its hands to get its structure right without trying to turn AZ around.


Agreed, I can't think of a good reason to buy AZ. It would be an endless money-pit, and any attempt of cost cutting will be met with fierce resistance and strikes.


USA-Italy is a big revenue market -- bigger than USA-Brazil which attracted so much attention in this forum with the LATAM deal, and Delta's $2.25 Billion. I won't argue that 100 million Euros, or 150 million Eros, or 200 million Euros is the right DL investment in AZ.

Please don't try to argue that LATAM is more broadly about Latin America. With Aeromexico, DL already gets the biggest piece, and, apart from Brazil, only Colombia (#16, just behind Italy, and about half what we see from the Dominican Republic) among the rest of South America is in the top 25 for non-stop international passengers to the U.S.

Market Revenue Size from Delta's Dec. '17 Investor Day presentation (see slide 28): https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... y_2017.pdf

Mexico, $4.8 Billion and the number 3 market from the U.S.
Italy, $3.2 Billion, number 9
Brazil, $3.0 Billion, number 10


Italy is a bigger market than Brazil, for DL. Doesn’t mean the overall market is bigger. I bet US originating traffic is higher to Italy than Brazil but I suspect the reverse may be true when US is the destination. Currently Brazil is having some issues but have a look at how big AAs operation was not long ago. I’d say that’s likely to come back and then some once Brazil get their sht together.

My opinion and expectation anyway, not saying this as fact.
 
AtomicGarden
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:59 pm

I can't be mad at the unions for resisting a take over which means firing staff. Even if they are partly to blame. Could a new management get away with just pay and benefit reductions and maybe relocation of surplus/unnecesary/redundant employees? and a total stop of new workers.
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
bennett123
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 pm

Would pay cuts be acceptable?.

Where do you propose to productively employ thousands of people?.
 
AtomicGarden
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:25 am

bennett123 wrote:
Would pay cuts be acceptable?.

Where do you propose to productively employ thousands of people?.


I would prefer a pay cut rather than getting sacked. As to what to do with the people, that depends on the company. In some cases there is an overstaffing in middle-to-upper management leaving those in contact with the pax understaffed. But I don't know if it's what happens here.
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:19 am

In order to be Alitalia problem solved somebody is going to take the consequences and nobody wants that in italian society. That is a problem, not Alitalia. I don’t understand why Alitalia is a problem when it is not that big burden for Italian economy. EC is ok with Alitalia so why would anybody care. Look it on the other side, if they haven’t spent money on Alitalia they would spend it on something else unnecessary. Italian economy is powerful and Italians are always going to be Italians and that is why people like Italy.

If you solve Altalian problem people will blame you for everything!!!
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:48 pm

Lufthansa is the only Alitalia chance to save something. Italia Government is formed by incompetent and "simil-communist of the last hour", the Italian consortium that should save the airline is similar to the famous consortium of "brave captains" of some years ago...everything become rifdiculous around Alitalia, since many years. It is a pity that all these incompetent people are joking with real employees, 12.000 people living thanks to Alitalia without considering all the medium and small companies working for it.
Lufthansa is the better option because, even if the airline will be reorganized, its identity will remain: domestic routes (improving and better organizing them), some main strategic European routes, major airline for African/Middle East connections and some routes for South America (especially those countries with a large Italian presence). I remember when Lufthansa launched Lufthansa Italia: a fleet of A319 with Italian crew, the experiment failed but with Allitalia as Lufthansa brand it could be successful.
I don't think it would be a deal like KLM-Air France, two airlines with about the same importance, but Alitalia would become a total Lufthansa subsidiary; it shoud abandone Skyteam for Star Alliance and Air Dolomiti, maybe, could be incorporated.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7732
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:28 pm

RvA wrote:
Italy is a bigger market than Brazil, for DL. Doesn’t mean the overall market is bigger.


See Delta's international market size chart from the Investor Day presentation of December 2017, as I noted in my post above.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2802
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:51 pm

I think AZ middle management is quite competent, the trouble lies with senior management govt. appointees linked to whoever is in power at the time and the amount of govt. interference. The other issue now is there is currently a semi-incompetent govt. in power- just look at this weeks Taranto steelworks mess where the only saviour, ArcelorMittal, just told Rome to f*off after the govt. unilaterally changed a contract legal position, then got pissed when ArcelorMittal tore up the contract in response. Rome cried "that's unfair" even though they were the ones that shifted the goal posts- the mentality defies belief- you can't make this stuff up.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 931
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:16 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that DL should offer 500 million for a 49% stake with defined conditions in terms of management, ie quasi carte blanche.


It's always easy to propose spending money that doesn't belong to you, isn't it?

And with respect, I think you are naive if you think that DELTA would truly have more effective control by raising their stake from long mentioned ~10-12% range to the current legal limit of 49%. That simply is not how things work in Italy, much less with AZ's unions.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2802
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:25 pm

49% does not give you carte blanche. EY found that out the hard way. Plus AZ needs DL/LH/anyone a lot more than they need AZ.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:05 pm

In my opinion Alitalia problem is a fully political one. People in Italy have a certain idea of themselves, they see in a certain way their country, and they see Alitalia doing certain things and not other. Politicians as a consequence pursue the same failing idea, I mean all of them, government and opposition, they hardly want Alitalia to do the same things again and again which of course lead to the same losses again and again. Alitalia is an out of market company because people in Italy do not accept the market to shape Alitalia destiny and operations, politicians are only obeying people will, and managers are obeying politicians will. Even if, let's say, Lufthansa will take over Alitalia with 100% stock share, they can not rule Alitalia because a flag carrier depends 100% on the government laws and support. So either they will accept to do what politicians say or they need to go. Full stop. And Italian government will take over again, as they are doing now. Employees are fully aware of that and will never accept easily a cut, because they know politicians don't want that too. This situation can only be broken by the EU commission, they have the power to stop this madness and there are laws that need to be enforced. The EU must take a stance, either they permit Italian government to subsidize Alitalia as they wish, or they decide to enforce the law and stop them. So far they have decided the first option, but they should understand this is a fast way to ruin the EU once and for all. Somebody is already leaving, and maybe they have a reason why. If EU accepts Italy to overrule the law, others will ask the same treatment sooner or later, and the EU will end.
So there is no point in blaming Italian politicians, they are doing what the people expect them to do. There is no point in blaming the stockholders, they are doing what the politicians ask them to. There is no point to blame the managers, they are doing what the company owners want them to do.
The only ones to blame are the Italian people (I am one of them) and the EU politicians, these last ones are the only ones who can really stop this madness. Do nou count on Italian people, I don't.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:22 pm

spannacomo wrote:
In my opinion Alitalia problem is a fully political one. People in Italy have a certain idea of themselves, they see in a certain way their country, and they see Alitalia doing certain things and not other. Politicians as a consequence pursue the same failing idea, I mean all of them, government and opposition, they hardly want Alitalia to do the same things again and again which of course lead to the same losses again and again. Alitalia is an out of market company because people in Italy do not accept the market to shape Alitalia destiny and operations, politicians are only obeying people will, and managers are obeying politicians will. Even if, let's say, Lufthansa will take over Alitalia with 100% stock share, they can not rule Alitalia because a flag carrier depends 100% on the government laws and support. So either they will accept to do what politicians say or they need to go. Full stop. And Italian government will take over again, as they are doing now. Employees are fully aware of that and will never accept easily a cut, because they know politicians don't want that too. This situation can only be broken by the EU commission, they have the power to stop this madness and there are laws that need to be enforced. The EU must take a stance, either they permit Italian government to subsidize Alitalia as they wish, or they decide to enforce the law and stop them. So far they have decided the first option, but they should understand this is a fast way to ruin the EU once and for all. Somebody is already leaving, and maybe they have a reason why. If EU accepts Italy to overrule the law, others will ask the same treatment sooner or later, and the EU will end.
So there is no point in blaming Italian politicians, they are doing what the people expect them to do. There is no point in blaming the stockholders, they are doing what the politicians ask them to. There is no point to blame the managers, they are doing what the company owners want them to do.
The only ones to blame are the Italian people (I am one of them) and the EU politicians, these last ones are the only ones who can really stop this madness. Do nou count on Italian people, I don't.


I totally agree..for instance, the UK Government was asked to give £200M to help save Thomas Cook from insolvency. They refused.

There have been instances where the UK has stepped in with support...but long long ago.
 
RvA
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
RvA wrote:
Italy is a bigger market than Brazil, for DL. Doesn’t mean the overall market is bigger.


See Delta's international market size chart from the Investor Day presentation of December 2017, as I noted in my post above.


Yes, for Delta. But doesn’t mean that applies for other airlines too.
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:46 pm

As Italian i don't agree with some countrymen.
Italy is one of the most beautiful countries of the world for sea, sun, food, history, monuments and...women, Stop; everything else is shameful.
Everyone could invest in Italy only if us Italians would disappear from the Earth!
But i don't think Alitalia is a responsibility of us taxpayers: we (at least the "few" Italians who really pay taxes...) paid about 10.5 billion euro in 15 years, allowing Alitalia to fly thanks to OUR money, thanks to MY money! Despite the bandits who ruled it!
In Italy there is a strange way to make business, different from all over the world: a kind of communist-capitalism where the motto is "what is your is mine, what is mine is mine"; with public money everyone is brave, everyone try to make the "Superman of the last hour" then, if things go wrong, no problem...they were public money! This was the problem of Alitalia and this is still the problem of Alitalia because the airline is surviving thanks 350 million euro of loan and other 400 million euro of loan.
And i would not talk of EU because Europe as single State doesn't exist: Europe is France and Germany, especially Germany, then many States with a lot of problems. I remember when Germany protected their banks with State Aids, nobody said nothing; France the same. But i think it is right because i also remember how "Europe" reduced Greece! Shameful.
So we should be honest: a referendum among Italians..."do you want to save Alitalia"? YES or NO.
"Do you want Alitalia a State airline"? YES or NO.
If the majority of us, taxpayers and real Alitalia owners with our money, would vote for NO, Alitalia must fail and a new airline can live.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:55 pm

spannacomo wrote:
In my opinion Alitalia problem is a fully political one. People in Italy have a certain idea of themselves, they see in a certain way their country, and they see Alitalia doing certain things and not other. Politicians as a consequence pursue the same failing idea, I mean all of them, government and opposition, they hardly want Alitalia to do the same things again and again which of course lead to the same losses again and again. Alitalia is an out of market company because people in Italy do not accept the market to shape Alitalia destiny and operations, politicians are only obeying people will, and managers are obeying politicians will. Even if, let's say, Lufthansa will take over Alitalia with 100% stock share, they can not rule Alitalia because a flag carrier depends 100% on the government laws and support. So either they will accept to do what politicians say or they need to go. Full stop. And Italian government will take over again, as they are doing now. Employees are fully aware of that and will never accept easily a cut, because they know politicians don't want that too. This situation can only be broken by the EU commission, they have the power to stop this madness and there are laws that need to be enforced. The EU must take a stance, either they permit Italian government to subsidize Alitalia as they wish, or they decide to enforce the law and stop them. So far they have decided the first option, but they should understand this is a fast way to ruin the EU once and for all. Somebody is already leaving, and maybe they have a reason why. If EU accepts Italy to overrule the law, others will ask the same treatment sooner or later, and the EU will end.
So there is no point in blaming Italian politicians, they are doing what the people expect them to do. There is no point in blaming the stockholders, they are doing what the politicians ask them to. There is no point to blame the managers, they are doing what the company owners want them to do.
The only ones to blame are the Italian people (I am one of them) and the EU politicians, these last ones are the only ones who can really stop this madness. Do nou count on Italian people, I don't.


I think that this is a too simpkistic view.
The reason why the EU is doing nothing to AZ is because AZ knows thibgs about other major EU airlines too.
To judge if AZ subsidies are unfair, we have to compare it with subsidies that other airlines receive.
For instance, how much revenue does LH earn from government agencies? Or did you think that they booked the cheapest tickets?
Why do you think that so many airlines are pricing their one-way fares higher than return fares, despite that it's non-sense?

I've witnessed first hand how government employees without major resposnsibilities are booked on economy class, 5000 USD one-way for a 10 hour flight. Not a subsidy? Give me a break.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:47 pm

crazy wrote:
As Italian i don't agree with some countrymen.
...
But i don't think Alitalia is a responsibility of us taxpayers..

Who did you vote last general election? Are you aware that all the political parties are in favor of giving money to Alitalia and want to protect them from the market?
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1514
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:26 pm

Looks like LH is wanting Alitalia to get rid of everything, including excess equipment and people, before they make an investment. So basically, in some faraway place down the road, when all the cards fall into place, LH will then give AZ consideration. Sincerely doubt the unions will agree to the cuts the Germans want, and DL is not offering enough money. Either Atlantia and FS pony up a lot more money, or I see a Sabena-type bankruptcy down the road. The days of infinite life support seem to be coming to an end.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1XH1IO
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:29 pm

spannacomo wrote:
crazy wrote:
As Italian i don't agree with some countrymen.
...
But i don't think Alitalia is a responsibility of us taxpayers..

Who did you vote last general election? Are you aware that all the political parties are in favor of giving money to Alitalia and want to protect them from the market?

I vote to change the country trying to cancel the "gooders, hypocrites, radical-chic" that for too many years ruined Italy.
My opinion about Alitalia is that this shameful airline should have failed 10-15 years ago and must fail.
If we want to blame someone else along with CEO's and politicians, the 3rd part to blame are Alitalia employees! How many years Alitalia buses were ready under their homes, all around Rome, to pick them for FCO airport? An MD-80 for Rome - Albenga route with two pilots, 4 cabin crew and 1 passenger?
And many, many, too many shameful benefits for too much time, without understand that the pit was being dug by themselves.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:52 pm

crazy wrote:
I vote to change the country trying to cancel the "gooders, hypocrites, radical-chic" that for too many years ruined Italy.

So you vote to change Italy yet the party you voted wants to go on subsidizing Alitalia? Where is the change exactly?
crazy wrote:
My opinion about Alitalia is that this shameful airline should have failed 10-15 years ago and must fail.
If we want to blame someone else along with CEO's and politicians, the 3rd part to blame are Alitalia employees! How many years Alitalia buses were ready under their homes, all around Rome, to pick them for FCO airport? An MD-80 for Rome - Albenga route with two pilots, 4 cabin crew and 1 passenger?
And many, many, too many shameful benefits for too much time, without understand that the pit was being dug by themselves.

I agree but until parties willing to subsidize Alitalia are elected why should anything of the above change? Politicians will assure things will continue exactly the same way if people vote them.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24502
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:53 pm

DL reaffirms its interest in 10% stake

“Delta continues to work with Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) and Atlantia and confirms it is prepared to invest up to €100 million [$110 million] for a 10% stake in Alitalia,” the US airline said in an emailed statement, adding: “Delta remains committed to maintaining its partnership with Alitalia in the future.”

https://atwonline.com/airlines/alitalia ... stake-plan
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7732
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:22 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1XU2KI

Reuters: Alitalia Rescue Plan hits the Skids

This is farce, not an orderly restructuring program under the law.

A deadline for binding bids for Alitalia expires on Thursday at midnight after several postponements.

One source close to the matter said Alitalia administrators would meet Italy’s industry minister Stefano Patuanelli on Thursday to discuss the situation.

“I believe there is still room ... with Delta, Lufthansa... to reach a conclusion,” Patuanelli said speaking on CNBC TV on Wednesday evening.

But he added he did not want to postpone the expected closing date of end-March for any rescue package, by which time any deal should have secured all necessary approvals.

Patuanelli said Lufthansa should “make a small effort” to take a stake in the Italian carrier from the off. On Tuesday the German carrier sent a letter to Ferrovie offering merely a commercial partnership for Alitalia.


Emphasis mine.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos