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DL747400
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:38 pm

crazy wrote:
But there is a news: Italian Ministry of Transports yesterday: six months for Alitalia relaunch, if it will be not possible the airline will close.
The single administrator has the hard job to cut the fleet up to 80 airplanes, cut employees, reorganize routes and marketing, ground services and to make Alitalia desiderable for Lufthansa or Air France-KLM or Delta. Do you believe in this deadline?


I wish I could, but I have to say no, I do not.

When it comes to Italy and AZ, there have unfortunately been far too many cries of "Wolf!" over the decades and especially over the last 2-3 years. As a result, people no longer believe what is being said, so they have tuned out and are largely no longer listening to the conversation. Italy no longer has credibility in this matter. Very few people (if any) believe that anything will come of this.
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Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:58 pm

In the end Alitalia will outlive us all.
 
crazy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:59 pm

400 million euro of loan confirmed...my money lost again and wasted.
Alitalia will be able to fly until March-April, then who knows.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:37 pm

crazy wrote:
400 million euro of loan confirmed...my money lost again and wasted.
Alitalia will be able to fly until March-April, then who knows.


Hey presto! They will receive even more money.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:30 pm

Anyone have an idea what their financial performance in 2019 will look like?
 
crazy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:45 pm

Blerg wrote:
Anyone have an idea what their financial performance in 2019 will look like?

In 2019 Alitalia has been the second European airline for punctuality with 82.1% in the first 10 months of 2019 arriving at 90% with the reopen of Milan-LIN airport at the end of october 2019.
In September 2019, and for the 23rd month consecutive, long haul flights revenues and passengers increased: 1,8% more revenue and 3,6% more passengers respect September 2018, with a load factor of 81,6%, better than September 2018.
In September 2019 Alitalia had 310 million of liquidity, 51 million less than August 2019, because of the less pre-booked tickets (norma for the end of summer season).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:59 pm

crazy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Anyone have an idea what their financial performance in 2019 will look like?

In 2019 Alitalia has been the second European airline for punctuality with 82.1% in the first 10 months of 2019 arriving at 90% with the reopen of Milan-LIN airport at the end of october 2019.
In September 2019, and for the 23rd month consecutive, long haul flights revenues and passengers increased: 1,8% more revenue and 3,6% more passengers respect September 2018, with a load factor of 81,6%, better than September 2018.
In September 2019 Alitalia had 310 million of liquidity, 51 million less than August 2019, because of the less pre-booked tickets (norma for the end of summer season).

This doesn't look so good. An airline the size of Alitalia should have 2 to 3 times the available assets.

What matters is how much premium traffic Alitalia is capturing. Being punctual helps there...

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usdcaguy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:56 am

Blerg wrote:
In the end Alitalia will outlive us all.


I’m sure I’ll be looking at AZ’s new flight attendant uniforms (v216.5) from my grave.
 
Cointrin330
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If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:54 pm

The prospects for AZ aren't good as the carrier burns through EUR 2 million per day, can't attract even Italian industry to invest in it, and needs a massive overhaul (now, limited to parking about 25-30 planes and cutting unprofitable flying and likely severely cutting its bloated workforce and in the future, AZ would need a significant fleet renewal as its planes are, save for the A332s, aging), what is to become of this hot mess? Will it follow an orderly liquidation similar to what happened with Air Berlin, or will it burn through Italian government money forever? The question here is what type of liquidation would occur here?
 
Rossiya747
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Re: If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:02 pm

Unless the Italian government suddenly makes Air Italy the national carrier, it is highly unlikely that Alitalia will close for reasons of prestige.
223 319 320 321 332 333 346 388 734 737 738 739 38M 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 77W 788 789 208 CRJ2 E145 E190 UA DL AA WN AC CM 4O AV 2K FI DY D8 SK LH EI FR U2 IB OS LX BA VS BT PS MS SA SW QR EY HY AI 9W TG SQ MH AK D7 QZ BR NH CA QF MI LV/IB VY AL
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:11 pm

I doubt any will occur. The Concorde will probably land at FCO with Elvis and Louis Armstrong at the controls first. No Italian government wants to go down in history as the one that killed Alitalia.
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MIflyer12
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Re: If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:34 pm

A proper restructuring seems out of reach given the generous, generous time they have allowed to reach one. There can't be a slow, orderly liquidation - employees wouldn't allow it. One day they would have to order all planes back to Rome and shut it down entirely.
 
Scotron12
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Re: If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:38 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
I doubt any will occur. The Concorde will probably land at FCO with Elvis and Louis Armstrong at the controls first. No Italian government wants to go down in history as the one that killed Alitalia.


Sad but true. Have to scratch my head coz Im totally baffled why AZ goes from one crises to another with no end in sight.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: If AZ Enters Liquidation....

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:07 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
I doubt any will occur. The Concorde will probably land at FCO with Elvis and Louis Armstrong at the controls first. No Italian government wants to go down in history as the one that killed Alitalia.


Sad but true. Have to scratch my head coz Im totally baffled why AZ goes from one crises to another with no end in sight.


I'm not baffled.
-Alitalia failed and keeps failing to build a proper hub. Many European flights don't connect to their long haul departures.
-Alitalia's yield management is not very creative. In the low season, they'd rather fly empty than lower their fares.
-Italy is a very challenging market. Very seasonal, leisure-centered yet expensive at destination (so less budget for flying).
-The product offering is not appealing, customer service is a joke, the mileage program has nothing to offer.


I was FFP on AZ a couple of years ago, I ordered goodies with my miles and never received them. I was left stranded at FCO airport, they tried to get me on a bus to a faraway hotel while the Holiday Inn around the corner had rooms available and they refused my EU compensation blaming my missed connection on forecasted weather of 3 flights ago. This is all while it was under EY.
Since then, I never booked them again. I'm not a fan of AZ at all, but I understand its economic importance for Italy.
Eventually though, I believe that something will come out of this.

I also think that any serious attempt will have to abandon the Alitalia branding, the same way Swissair rebranded as Swiss International and became successful.
Alitalia is an outdated brand and carries a negative image of a disinterested government agency geared for perpetual failure.

The Rome hub is debatable.
A Milan hub would have been more suitable for their network but equally loss-making due to high costs at MXP.
AZ needs to rethink their hub strategy. Which markets do they want to serve and how can they do it efficiently.
Rome is of course important, it's by far the largest city. However, it's too far South to serve as an efficient hub.
AZ have progressively abandoned regional operations.

There is more than one way to run an effiicient and profitable hub, even out of FCO.

AZ needs a strong leader with a vision.

While AZ is in a challeging position and will remain to be so until a proper plan is divised, I expect to see Air Italy become insolvent in the spring of 2020 and to vanish before AZ.
It's a harsh prediction, but I've predicted the struggles of DY and WOW air long before the mainstream picked up on it.
The MAX crisis is one issue, but I followed Air italy from the days that it was listed on the Milan Stock Exchange and I know it like a book.
Whatever QR invested in it will be burned by the end of this winter and QR got nothing for it. The strikes of this month will probably be the final straw and it's telling the Air Italy will shut down its OLB operation for a month and a half during the runway works rather than operate from AHO. I expect that they will never operate again from OLB after the works are completed.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:01 am

Here is a link on the 400 million euro loan:

https://financial-news.co.uk/italy-inte ... a-2019122/

There is lots of tough talk ("liquidate"), but we know this is just an extension.

I'm flabbergasted that another large cash infusion has occurred. Unless drastic changes happen fast (as within 6 weeks), this will do nothing.

Has anyone summed up the cash destruction by Alitalia?

I understand no Italian government wants to be the one to shut it down, but it is time.

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danipawa
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:55 am

Airbus A321 -112 583 EI-BIXP Alitalia ferried 30dec19 FCO-DGX, for part-out & scrap ex D-AVZT

source:https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4&page=2
 
art
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:56 pm

For too long the fiasco called Alitalia has been allowed to receive subsidies which damage other companies operating in the airline sector. If AZ cannot function without subsidies, AZ has to go. Should Italy persist in subsidising the airline in defiance of EU rules, I suggest the EU instructs all other member countries to refuse AZ flights access to their airspace. That would be the end for AZ. wouldn't it?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:44 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Has anyone summed up the cash destruction by Alitalia?


There's an estimate of 8 Billion euros of public money over ten years but it's not clear when that ten-year period started.

https://italicsmag.com/2019/08/16/how-a ... ing-fumes/

That's a lot of capital blown by a carrier that at present has just 115 aircraft.
 
danipawa
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:15 pm

Alitalia is getting rid of 4 A320, 2 A321, 2 A330 and the B77W this 2020 and 9 A320/321 in 2021

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 831c.shtml
 
dstblj52
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:59 pm

danipawa wrote:
Alitalia is getting rid of 4 A320, 2 A321, 2 A330 and the B77W this 2020 and 9 A320/321 in 2021

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 831c.shtml

Maybe the government is planning to comair them? That might be a politically viable way to end them
 
bennett123
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:15 pm

That is quite a drop in capacity.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:18 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Alitalia is getting rid of 4 A320, 2 A321, 2 A330 and the B77W this 2020 and 9 A320/321 in 2021

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 831c.shtml

Maybe the government is planning to comair them? That might be a politically viable way to end them


"Comair"? That's an interesting hypothesis, except they got two additional 777 frames in 2017, correct?

Otherwise, gradual draw-down might be most politically feasible course of action, regardless of end target. Market for narrow-bodies is hot, and non-renewal of leases for A319 and A320's, once they expire, is simply prudent cost management. Rest of the fleet is not young, and is naturally cycling out; A321 fleet looks especially vulnerable...

Is Alitalia CityLiner in the same reorganization "file" as the mother company? Maybe they can be sold to generate some cash? Is there anything else left to sell?
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georgiabill
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:21 pm

With the reducing of their fleet is AZ planning terminating services? Surprised they are planning on returning their 77W. Would have thought it would have been good for FCO-JFK-FCO route. But only having one makes sense to terminate lease.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:33 am

This seems like a lot of capacity to be taken out of the fleet. What will become of the crew? Or don't they have enough of them at the moment?
 
Kiwiandrew
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:47 am

danipawa wrote:
Alitalia is getting rid of 4 A320, 2 A321, 2 A330 and the B77W this 2020 and 9 A320/321 in 2021

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 831c.shtml


Hmmm, how close is this to the fleet reduction LH wanted before they would consider touching AZ?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:57 am

Blerg wrote:
This seems like a lot of capacity to be taken out of the fleet. What will become of the crew? Or don't they have enough of them at the moment?

What will become of the crew -- apparently that is among the key questions. Reorganizing Alitalia -- so it stops losing money -- has run into many obstacles -- including expensive crew contracts. Unions are up in arms against cost-cutting.

Immediate loss of flying opportunities/jobs to be worked, combined with further fleet draw-down in sight, might be a catalyst for unions to return to negotiating table. Alitalia's entire fleet is aging, while younger frames are gradually returned to lessors (especially narrowbodies -- they are a hot commodity due to MAX disaster, so lease renewals will be expensive), and older ones need either expensive checks, or retirement. Emergency administrator, as a job description, generally does not foresee a mandate to order new fleet. And Emergency administrator now runs Alitalia.

It's one thing for the unions to stand their ground, and demand to "retain their hard-won wages and benefits"; you can spin it rather nicely for the media. Now, if your message is -- "to retain our hard-won wages and benefits, the taxpayer also needs to buy us several billion Euro's worth of shiny new jets" -- the spin becomes more difficult.

So, fleet reduction might be a factor that forces the unions to compromise.

Still, as mentioned upthread, "Comair" might be an option -- administrator might be going to the government from time to time, hat in hand, asking for emergency cash to keep lights on. On the one hand, the can is kicked down the road. On the other, fleet draw-down is proceeding, and each year, Alitalia is smaller -- so a smaller mess to manage, presumably. Until it shrinks to a point, where it's small enough to take a more radical stance to it...
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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MIflyer12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:24 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Still, as mentioned upthread, "Comair" might be an option -- administrator might be going to the government from time to time, hat in hand, asking for emergency cash to keep lights on. On the one hand, the can is kicked down the road. On the other, fleet draw-down is proceeding, and each year, Alitalia is smaller -- so a smaller mess to manage, presumably. Until it shrinks to a point, where it's small enough to take a more radical stance to it...


They might cut their losses from 2 million Euros a day but they'll still be losing a lot of money over ~3 years -- especially if they can't terminate staff. Will the EU stand for a 3 Billion Euro, 5 year reorganization?
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Still, as mentioned upthread, "Comair" might be an option -- administrator might be going to the government from time to time, hat in hand, asking for emergency cash to keep lights on. On the one hand, the can is kicked down the road. On the other, fleet draw-down is proceeding, and each year, Alitalia is smaller -- so a smaller mess to manage, presumably. Until it shrinks to a point, where it's small enough to take a more radical stance to it...


They might cut their losses from 2 million Euros a day but they'll still be losing a lot of money over ~3 years -- especially if they can't terminate staff. Will the EU stand for a 3 Billion Euro, 5 year reorganization?

The EU Commission have tolerated it over the last decade+ so I don't see why it would suddenly change course.
Just like it would tolerate it if it was LH, AS or BA who requested constant state subsidies. Not all EU members are created equal and what is verboten for the airlines of smaller member states is kosher for the airlines of larger members.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Still, as mentioned upthread, "Comair" might be an option -- administrator might be going to the government from time to time, hat in hand, asking for emergency cash to keep lights on. On the one hand, the can is kicked down the road. On the other, fleet draw-down is proceeding, and each year, Alitalia is smaller -- so a smaller mess to manage, presumably. Until it shrinks to a point, where it's small enough to take a more radical stance to it...


They might cut their losses from 2 million Euros a day but they'll still be losing a lot of money over ~3 years -- especially if they can't terminate staff. Will the EU stand for a 3 Billion Euro, 5 year reorganization?

As mentioned, if "Comair" scenario is in play, EU might just get on with letting Italian Government do it, while making noises about how irresponsible it all is.
"Comair" scenario foresees excessive crew -- as there is not enough flying available. I don't know, if Alitalia crewing is managed in bids/seniority system, or allocation. But at some point, yes, in "Comair" situation, there will be a massive overhang of staff vs. work available to them.

here, a "Comair" plan could foresee a fork:
Option A, with withering of the airline to the situation, where triple the necessary staff are there to fly three-four dozens of 20+ year old planes, where a huge upfront government investment is needed just to keep things from stopping. Then, the government of the day will have to actually take some decisions.
Option B, a split-out of a "lean, mean, flying machine" -- smaller fleet, smaller staff, more competitive contracts -- a company that could be sold to interested bidders; and "Existing Alitalia" -- everything as it currently runs, comfortable and familiar, but sinking, as per Option A. Again, would take political will to achieve that...
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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Scotron12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:14 pm

Lufthansa keeps being mentioned as an imterested party but I cannot see why they would be interested. AZ unions are a law unto themselves and will not entertain any job cuts or salary reductions.

The latest €400M is said to be the last. How many times has that been said before?
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:05 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Lufthansa keeps being mentioned as an imterested party but I cannot see why they would be interested. AZ unions are a law unto themselves and will not entertain any job cuts or salary reductions.

The latest €400M is said to be the last. How many times has that been said before?


Any Lufthansa mention in my view is the Italian government's method of digging into Delta and partners pockets!
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:36 pm

georgiabill wrote:
With the reducing of their fleet is AZ planning terminating services? Surprised they are planning on returning their 77W. Would have thought it would have been good for FCO-JFK-FCO route. But only having one makes sense to terminate lease.


77W gets split between EZE, GRU & JFK, depending on the season.

A few months ago, there was a list of destinations that were (allegedly) on the chopping block. If memory serves some on the list were DEL, JNB & SCL. Without 2 330s and the 77W, something's got to give.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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iseeyyc
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:22 pm

My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:38 am

iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.


I'm not Italian, but I whenever I talk aviation with friends (who anyway are mostly in the industry) and my family, I advise them not to fly Alitalia or Norwegian.
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:30 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.


I'm not Italian, but I whenever I talk aviation with friends (who anyway are mostly in the industry) and my family, I advise them not to fly Alitalia or Norwegian.


Why? There is no imminent risk of Alitalia's bankruptcy. In terms of reliability they are good. I myself flew with them and so did many people I know and they didn't have any problems with them. They are also quite punctual.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:49 am

Phosphorus wrote:
....

Still, as mentioned upthread, "Comair" might be an option -- administrator might be going to the government from time to time, hat in hand, asking for emergency cash to keep lights on. On the one hand, the can is kicked down the road. On the other, fleet draw-down is proceeding, and each year, Alitalia is smaller -- so a smaller mess to manage, presumably. Until it shrinks to a point, where it's small enough to take a more radical stance to it...

This scenario is going to be very expensive while at the same time not satisfying for unions, maybe the government would prefer a shutdown and a new start.

iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.

the service is far from being inconsistent, so there is no such a risk
 
AZa346
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:35 am

iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.

It is more about the fact that Alitalia doesn't have boatloads of destinations from milan, as most of the times you need to connect in Rome, which is conveient only if you are flying to the Maldives, South Africa and South America... But most of the business is in North America(Uncovered from Milan apart from the lone JFK service), and south east asia. You might as well fly LH, AF, KL, BA or IG for that matter, or QR EK and EY if you are flying south east. DIfferent stpry for FCO passengers of course
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:48 am

AZa346 wrote:
iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.

It is more about the fact that Alitalia doesn't have boatloads of destinations from milan, as most of the times you need to connect in Rome, which is conveient only if you are flying to the Maldives, South Africa and South America... But most of the business is in North America(Uncovered from Milan apart from the lone JFK service), and south east asia. You might as well fly LH, AF, KL, BA or IG for that matter, or QR EK and EY if you are flying south east. DIfferent stpry for FCO passengers of course


Quite agree here. Fully anecdotal, but my business contacts in Florence area appear to have more or less given up on Alitalia. Depending on the depths of previous aggravation, and further expectations, they are either "LH only" or "LX+LH only" or "LH mainly" or "anything goes, but Alitalia at the bottom of the list" types. No committed AZ fans, some committed LH Group fans, some wavering folks. And these are people who tend to spend a fair amount of money traveling on business through Europe, somewhat in North America, but lately a lot in Asia-Pacific, with China being very important destination. Take it for what it's worth.

And Florence/Tuscany is reasonably further South from Milan. Calculation probably becomes even worse for AZ, further north...
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Scotron12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:14 am

Phosphorus wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
iseeyyc wrote:
My question is to any Italian A netters--

Isn't it getting to the point where no one wants to fly with AZ? I don't understand who their customers are if the service is so inconsistent.

It is more about the fact that Alitalia doesn't have boatloads of destinations from milan, as most of the times you need to connect in Rome, which is conveient only if you are flying to the Maldives, South Africa and South America... But most of the business is in North America(Uncovered from Milan apart from the lone JFK service), and south east asia. You might as well fly LH, AF, KL, BA or IG for that matter, or QR EK and EY if you are flying south east. DIfferent stpry for FCO passengers of course


Quite agree here. Fully anecdotal, but my business contacts in Florence area appear to have more or less given up on Alitalia. Depending on the depths of previous aggravation, and further expectations, they are either "LH only" or "LX+LH only" or "LH mainly" or "anything goes, but Alitalia at the bottom of the list" types. No committed AZ fans, some committed LH Group fans, some wavering folks. And these are people who tend to spend a fair amount of money traveling on business through Europe, somewhat in North America, but lately a lot in Asia-Pacific, with China being very important destination. Take it for what it's worth.

And Florence/Tuscany is reasonably further South from Milan. Calculation probably becomes even worse for AZ, further north...


So even anyone taking over AZ would have the same problem...no one wants to fly them. Or they would if they offered the right schedule which unfortunately they cannot.

I have only flown them once...many years ago...B747 JFK-FCO-JFK...and my experience was quite pleasant. Based on many comments I gather their service has not improved but gone downhill.

Puzzling!!
 
dcajet
Posts: 4653
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:44 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
It is more about the fact that Alitalia doesn't have boatloads of destinations from milan, as most of the times you need to connect in Rome, which is conveient only if you are flying to the Maldives, South Africa and South America... But most of the business is in North America(Uncovered from Milan apart from the lone JFK service), and south east asia. You might as well fly LH, AF, KL, BA or IG for that matter, or QR EK and EY if you are flying south east. DIfferent stpry for FCO passengers of course


Quite agree here. Fully anecdotal, but my business contacts in Florence area appear to have more or less given up on Alitalia. Depending on the depths of previous aggravation, and further expectations, they are either "LH only" or "LX+LH only" or "LH mainly" or "anything goes, but Alitalia at the bottom of the list" types. No committed AZ fans, some committed LH Group fans, some wavering folks. And these are people who tend to spend a fair amount of money traveling on business through Europe, somewhat in North America, but lately a lot in Asia-Pacific, with China being very important destination. Take it for what it's worth.

And Florence/Tuscany is reasonably further South from Milan. Calculation probably becomes even worse for AZ, further north...


So even anyone taking over AZ would have the same problem...no one wants to fly them. Or they would if they offered the right schedule which unfortunately they cannot.

I have only flown them once...many years ago...B747 JFK-FCO-JFK...and my experience was quite pleasant. Based on many comments I gather their service has not improved but gone downhill.

Puzzling!!


You are correct. For most travelers that reside north of the Po river, Lufthansa is the airline of choice pretty much, and MUC the hub used to connect. And these are the highest yielding travelers in the land... Very few of those use Alitalia these days.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
HunterATL
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 pm

Press reports indicate that LH and Ferrovie are no longer interested.

The future of Alitalia is looking even more grim as both Lufthansa and Italian state railway Ferrovie dello Stato are no longer interested in investing in the airline. Local media reports that both parties have pulled out of the bidding, leaving only Atlantia left interested.


https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-ferr ... -alitalia/
 
dstblj52
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:00 am

HunterATL wrote:
Press reports indicate that LH and Ferrovie are no longer interested.

The future of Alitalia is looking even more grim as both Lufthansa and Italian state railway Ferrovie dello Stato are no longer interested in investing in the airline. Local media reports that both parties have pulled out of the bidding, leaving only Atlantia left interested.


https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-ferr ... -alitalia/

I don't see how the government has any option but to gradually comair this operation, no one's interested in buying it, the unions are too strong today to shut it down, without a major political hit, and the EU has not yet forced their hand. Its the politically easiest, and allows them to kick the can down the road, while the younger generations (who fly with the ULCC) grow more influential and then someone can finally kill this beast in 20 years where it becomes a scandal the government has pumped X billion euros into the operation.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 988
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:56 am

dstblj52 wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
Press reports indicate that LH and Ferrovie are no longer interested.

The future of Alitalia is looking even more grim as both Lufthansa and Italian state railway Ferrovie dello Stato are no longer interested in investing in the airline. Local media reports that both parties have pulled out of the bidding, leaving only Atlantia left interested.


https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-ferr ... -alitalia/

I don't see how the government has any option but to gradually comair this operation, no one's interested in buying it, the unions are too strong today to shut it down, without a major political hit, and the EU has not yet forced their hand. Its the politically easiest, and allows them to kick the can down the road, while the younger generations (who fly with the ULCC) grow more influential and then someone can finally kill this beast in 20 years where it becomes a scandal the government has pumped X billion euros into the operation.

A "comair" scenario could actually unfold even faster, unless the government is ready to fund not only the current losses, but also investment in fleet renewal. Alitalia is bound to pay more for leases, given its precarious situation. And to buy planes outright needs lots of cash.

Speaking of which: do we know age statistics of unionized Alitalia crews? Maybe they are ready to retire already? :)
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:00 am

I keep seeing reference to a "Comair scenario" but I'm failing to make the connection?
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:08 am

Kiwiandrew wrote:
I keep seeing reference to a "Comair scenario" but I'm failing to make the connection?


Comair was a regional carrier owned by Delta operating flights under the Delta Connection brand. At one time they had a fleet of 170+ regional aircraft. When Delta emerged from Chapter 11 they began the process of slowly dismantling Comair's operations over a course of five years, with Comair eventually dying in 2012 with a pitiful whelp and a handful of aircraft.

Link to good Flightnetwork blog summary

Pre Delta Chap 11 (Sep 2005)
Comair had 7k+ employees and operated 1k daily flights.

Closure announcement (Jul 2012)
1.7k employees and less than 290 daily flights
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2803
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:13 pm

Presently the govt. is handling AZ, the Taranto steelworks and Bank of Bari messes. Together about 25K employees and I don't want to contemplate how many €billions.
I asked some colleagues (outside industry) what they thought about AZ and their tax dollars being wasted and the replies were "we don't think about the tax dollars- it's keeping people employed and off the streets".
 
Blerg
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Presently the govt. is handling AZ, the Taranto steelworks and Bank of Bari messes. Together about 25K employees and I don't want to contemplate how many €billions.
I asked some colleagues (outside industry) what they thought about AZ and their tax dollars being wasted and the replies were "we don't think about the tax dollars- it's keeping people employed and off the streets".


I am sorry but do you mind telling me what is going on with Taranto and the Bank of Bari?
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2803
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm

Taranto is the site of the largest steelworks where many people have died/developed cancer due to environment pollution. Basically the only employer in town.
Bank of Bari basically went bust last month so the govt. gave millions to keep it going.
 
Blerg
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:28 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Taranto is the site of the largest steelworks where many people have died/developed cancer due to environment pollution. Basically the only employer in town.
Bank of Bari basically went bust last month so the govt. gave millions to keep it going.


Thank you!
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:39 pm

VFRonTop wrote:
Kiwiandrew wrote:
I keep seeing reference to a "Comair scenario" but I'm failing to make the connection?


Comair was a regional carrier owned by Delta operating flights under the Delta Connection brand. At one time they had a fleet of 170+ regional aircraft. When Delta emerged from Chapter 11 they began the process of slowly dismantling Comair's operations over a course of five years, with Comair eventually dying in 2012 with a pitiful whelp and a handful of aircraft.

Link to good Flightnetwork blog summary

Pre Delta Chap 11 (Sep 2005)
Comair had 7k+ employees and operated 1k daily flights.

Closure announcement (Jul 2012)
1.7k employees and less than 290 daily flights


Thank you so much, that makes a lot of sense. No wonder I was confused, I was thinking of the BA franchise carrier in South Africa. I forgot there used to be another Comair.

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