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fraT
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:54 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
SkyTeam does not offer anything to Alitalia.

They need an alliance that covers the biggest business centers of the world like London, NY, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, LA. And that's One World.

Star Alliance wouldn't be bad either but no presence at JFK is not a good thing for a European airline.


Star also has a hub in the NYC area. EWR is actually as close to Manhattan as JFK and better connected to it.
But I doubt that the alliance membership is what could AZ turn around.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:43 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
SkyTeam does not offer anything to Alitalia.

They need an alliance that covers the biggest business centers of the world like London, NY, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, LA. And that's One World.

Star Alliance wouldn't be bad either but no presence at JFK is not a good thing for a European airline.


JFK at the same time is not the perfect airport to transit at. At the same time JFK is heavily O/D. If they only flew to T4 would they be able to consider transfers a significant part of their JFK operations (which by the the way AF doesn't even fly to T4 with the exception being KLM). If they really were chasing after DL transfers it would make much more sense for them to fly to ATL which their partners AF/KL both fly to to collect the big load of transfers.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
FSDan
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:14 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
SkyTeam does not offer anything to Alitalia.

They need an alliance that covers the biggest business centers of the world like London, NY, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, LA. And that's One World.


Why? Rome isn't exactly known as a top global business destination... In the U.S., AA's network would certainly be a good fit for AZ given which cities have large Italian-American populations. I'll give you that. But DL does give AZ a far stronger partner in the biggest U.S.-Italy market: NYC. HKG and particularly SYD seem of little use to AZ... And if you're going to include SYD in the list of most important global markets, you should probably also include YYZ, GRU, CDG, PEK, and PVG, none of which are standouts for OneWorld.

In my opinion, AZ is probably best off sticking with SkyTeam or going unaligned and making strategic partnerships on their own. E.g. LATAM or Aerolineas Argentinas would make sense given cultural ties.
Last edited by FSDan on Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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onwFan
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:22 pm

FSDan wrote:
But DL does give AZ a far stronger partner in the biggest U.S.-Italy market: NYC.

JFK is not a massive connection hub that people claim it to be - It is basically one of the largest O/D markets in the world. They don't need DL for that. In either case, we have seen over the last decade what/how the DL/AZ partnership has come to - I say the best time for some change.

FSDan wrote:
In my opinion, AZ is probably best off sticking with SkyTeam or going unaligned and making strategic partnerships on their own. E.g. LATAM or Aerolineas Argentinas would make sense given cultural ties.

When DL used to invest in G3, we saw how useful that was to AZ: they had to go for a partnership with Avianca Brazil, and after that with Azul. So we can surely imagine how a LATAM partnership will look like! In all likelihood, we can expect AR out of SkyTeam as well in the near future, so no need to stay in SkyTeam for that.
 
FSDan
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:27 pm

onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
But DL does give AZ a far stronger partner in the biggest U.S.-Italy market: NYC.

JFK is not a massive connection hub that people claim it to be - It is basically one of the largest O/D markets in the world. They don't need DL for that.


I expect DL has far more FFs than AA in the NYC area these days, which likely does help out AZ. And while JFK isn't primarily a connecting hub, DL does offer far more useful connections to AZ there than AA would, including flights to upstate markets such as BUF and SYR where JFK is geographically one of the best options.

My overall point here is that AZ would appear to have more to lose than to gain in their most important overseas market by switching partners.

FSDan wrote:
In my opinion, AZ is probably best off sticking with SkyTeam or going unaligned and making strategic partnerships on their own. E.g. LATAM or Aerolineas Argentinas would make sense given cultural ties.

When DL used to invest in G3, we saw how useful that was to AZ: they had to go for a partnership with Avianca Brazil, and after that with Azul. So we can surely imagine how a LATAM partnership will look like! In all likelihood, we can expect AR out of SkyTeam as well in the near future, so no need to stay in SkyTeam for that.[/quote]

If we can expect AR out of SkyTeam in the near future, surely we can at least imagine an AZ-LA partnership that works out well for both carriers too.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
onwFan
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:32 pm

FSDan wrote:
If we can expect AR out of SkyTeam in the near future, surely we can at least imagine an AZ-LA partnership that works out well for both carriers too.

Sure, I just cannot even imagine DL papa doing anything that doesn't benefit them or AF/KL. DL's partnership policy is one of exclusion, not inclusion...
 
xwb777
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A new Alitalia will launch in June 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:38 pm

The Italian government will be creating a new comapny that will takeover Alitalia to renationalize the airline after being 11 years privately owned. Alitalia will be working with the unions to make sure that not many staff will be losing their jobs.

The airline will be operating a fleet of 90 aircraft. Alitalia as reported will be leaving Sky Team and join another alliance.

Alitalia had 3 failed restructuring attempts.

Source: https://onemileatatime.com/alitalia-relaunch/
 
jollo
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Re: A new Alitalia will launch in June 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:07 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Alitalia will be working with the unions to make sure that not many staff will be losing their jobs.


And that's why the 4° attempt will not fare better: AZ accrued over decades into a bottomless repository for screwed politicians, offspring/family members of politicians, screwed public managers friends of politicians, friends of ... etc.. Literally thousands of useless, immovable, absurdly well-paid ballasts, hopelessly sapping the morale of the minority (not a few, but still a minority) of truly passionate professionals that manage to keep the airline going (with a stellar safety record, be it said).

A nationalized Alitalia has exactly zero chances to finally unload this ballast (which includes top management, of course).
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:06 am

FSDan wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
SkyTeam does not offer anything to Alitalia.

They need an alliance that covers the biggest business centers of the world like London, NY, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, LA. And that's One World.


Why? Rome isn't exactly known as a top global business destination... In the U.S., AA's network would certainly be a good fit for AZ given which cities have large Italian-American populations. I'll give you that. But DL does give AZ a far stronger partner in the biggest U.S.-Italy market: NYC. HKG and particularly SYD seem of little use to AZ... And if you're going to include SYD in the list of most important global markets, you should probably also include YYZ, GRU, CDG, PEK, and PVG, none of which are standouts for OneWorld.

In my opinion, AZ is probably best off sticking with SkyTeam or going unaligned and making strategic partnerships on their own. E.g. LATAM or Aerolineas Argentinas would make sense given cultural ties.


Pre-COVID, AZ & AR had a JV on the EZE-FCO route with 2 daily trips. Not sure if the JV will be scrapped or suspended in the immediate future. EZE, together with GRU & JFK are the jewels of the AZ international network in terms of revenue and demand.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 2:43 pm

3 billion euros fresh capital to be injected into Alitalia, the industry minister said on Thursday.

On Wednesday the Labour ministry said it had given a green light to place 6,622 Alitalia workers on a temporary layoff scheme until October. Rome said would do its best to protect current job levels at the airline, which currently employs 11,132 people.

https://www.reuters.com/article/italy-a ... SL8N2CP4B6
mercure f-wtcc
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 3:38 pm

It looks like the virus has actually saved Alitalia, and maybe also Norwegian.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 3:41 pm

Is it confirmed that they are exiting SkyTeam?
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 4:10 pm

I am confused, who will keep the 11.132 jobs? New or old Alitalia?
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 4:10 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Is it confirmed that they are exiting SkyTeam?

Yess May 21.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 4:17 pm

I wonder which alliance is going to snatch them.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 07, 2020 6:32 pm

nordikcam wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Is it confirmed that they are exiting SkyTeam?

Yess May 21.


I believe they are just exiting the Skyteam North Atlantic Joint Venture on May 21st. Leaving ST for good is on the table but has not been announced yet.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat May 09, 2020 6:58 pm

Alitalia should joint OneWorld. IAG - Vueling have a very decent amount of flights in Rome. Vueling considers Rome a hub. Working together would help both.

Star Alliance has Zurich, Vienna, Munich and Frankfurt. All right to the north of Italy. Rome and Milan would be considered secondary and lesser compared to those. It would be like being in SkyTeam. Ignored once again. London, Madrid and Rome nicely work geographically. Not too close to each other.

Also, oneworld has a hub in the Top4 cities Italians visit in the US. NY, Miami, LA, Chicago.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 3:41 am

Alitalia's looking at Star Alliance: https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... r-alliance
 
IADFCO
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 4:07 am

Ishrion wrote:
Alitalia's looking at Star Alliance: https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... r-alliance


Very interesting. I wonder what that would do to the IAD-FCO nonstop. Over the years, UA has been unenthusiastic (to say the least), from starting it, to moving it to a strange triangular IAD-FCO-MXP-IAD route (or was it -MXP-FCO-?), to dropping it altogether, to restarting it year round, to making it seasonal. AZ essentially never had it, (re)started it year round (but not daily) last year, and then dropped it. When both AZ and UA were operating it last year, there seemed to be little or no price competition, at least in cattle class and cattle-plus.

Maybe from two semi-uninterested airlines there might come one steady, reliable, year round IAD-FCO nonstop. I know that these days this is not a criterion, but still one would think that there would be a nonstop between two major capitals.
 
Kiwiandrew
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 4:10 am

Ishrion wrote:
Alitalia's looking at Star Alliance: https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... r-alliance


Alitalia may be looking at Star... but are Star looking at Alitalia ?
 
questions
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 5:47 am

dcajet wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Is it confirmed that they are exiting SkyTeam?

Yess May 21.


I believe they are just exiting the Skyteam North Atlantic Joint Venture on May 21st. Leaving ST for good is on the table but has not been announced yet.


SkyTeam was the last alliance to form. It will be the first to dissolve. None of the members really have an interest in remaining in it; the business case is weak. It will not be around after 2021.
 
tipsyinmadras
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 6:42 am

nordikcam wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Is it confirmed that they are exiting SkyTeam?

Yess May 21.


No. It sounds like AZ is exiting the Transatlantic JV with DL/AF/KL which is not equivalent to “exiting SkyTeam”. There’s been speculation that after exiting the TATL JV Alitalia might also exit SkyTeam but that seems purely speculative at this point.
 
xiaotung
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 6:44 am

questions wrote:
dcajet wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Yess May 21.


I believe they are just exiting the Skyteam North Atlantic Joint Venture on May 21st. Leaving ST for good is on the table but has not been announced yet.


SkyTeam was the last alliance to form. It will be the first to dissolve. None of the members really have an interest in remaining in it; the business case is weak. It will not be around after 2021.


I doubt it. When SkyTeam shrinks small enough is the time they will grow again. This is just circle of life. No airline has left Star Alliance voluntarily and oneworld is still growing. Alliances still have value and it's just a matter of re-group and restructure. COVID-19 will accelarate this cycle.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 6:52 am

questions wrote:
dcajet wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Yess May 21.


I believe they are just exiting the Skyteam North Atlantic Joint Venture on May 21st. Leaving ST for good is on the table but has not been announced yet.


SkyTeam was the last alliance to form. It will be the first to dissolve. None of the members really have an interest in remaining in it; the business case is weak. It will not be around after 2021.


A few months ago I would have agreed with you; Delta (ST's singing voice) seemed to want out or at least to branch out from ST, These days, with the industry completely upended, it is very hard to predict what will happen 3 months down the road. Alliances may still have a role to play for the foreseeable future or at least, until demand returns to pre COVID levels,
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
xiaotung
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 7:14 am

Kiwiandrew wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Alitalia's looking at Star Alliance: https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... r-alliance


Alitalia may be looking at Star... but are Star looking at Alitalia ?


Yes if LH loses one or both SN and OS. It wouldn't hurt to have the discussion I suppose.
 
danipawa
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 3:29 pm

any news about aircraft retirement? new fleet to be 90 of 113
 
airhansa
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 10, 2020 4:09 pm

MXP is a good place to situate a mid-haul and long-haul airline, save airports with better ground connections in North-Western Mainland Europe. But I don't consider AZ's image as recoverable in the current climate, and hence I think the best suitor would be a group such as IAG, which wants a presence in Central Europe (MXP is close enough IMO) and has a history of hoovering up poorly perceived airlines. I just wonder if the economic climate and bureaucracy of Italy might mean that MAD is a better place to situate such a low cost airline. But regardless, if there's an airline group that AZ should join, it's IAG.
 
danipawa
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 12, 2020 2:35 pm

Airbus A321 -112 593 I-BIXR Alitalia ferried 12may20 FCO-NQY, for part-out &scrap ex D-AVZW

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
 
danipawa
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 19, 2020 2:16 pm

Airbus A321 -112 599 I-BIXS Alitalia ferried 19may20 FCO-NQY, for part-out & scrap ex D-AVZZ
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 19, 2020 2:43 pm

So what's the status of Alitalia's fleet right now? If they are removing planes hopefully they are also adjusting their number of employees.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 12:04 am

Per travel agent note regarding ticketing and pricing rules updates, AZ confirms it has exited the Atlantic JV with DL/AFKL as of May 21.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Nola
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 2:39 pm

The skybonus page no longer lists Alitalia. the sky miles "partner" page still shows earning on Alitalia as Tier 1.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 2:44 pm

danipawa wrote:
any news about aircraft retirement? new fleet to be 90 of 113


Aren't the A321s or what's left of them, leaving the fleet entirely, along with some A320s, two A330-200s and the lone 777-300ER have already left the fleet.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 2:50 pm

airhansa wrote:
MXP is a good place to situate a mid-haul and long-haul airline, save airports with better ground connections in North-Western Mainland Europe. But I don't consider AZ's image as recoverable in the current climate, and hence I think the best suitor would be a group such as IAG, which wants a presence in Central Europe (MXP is close enough IMO) and has a history of hoovering up poorly perceived airlines. I just wonder if the economic climate and bureaucracy of Italy might mean that MAD is a better place to situate such a low cost airline. But regardless, if there's an airline group that AZ should join, it's IAG.


MXP is a problem, in that AZ has an outsized presence at LIN, which is much closer to central Milan but can't be expanded or handle long haul. AZ refocused its hub operation around MXP in the 2000s and it didn't work. The airport is not well designed for connections at some distance from Milan. FCO as a hub is a bit better geographically, but Rome does skew more leisure than business overall. IMHO, the future of AZ, if it really has one, is a point to point carrier and not a hub and spoke one and if it can find an Alliance that can work with it, then it can flow traffic through one of those and capture revenue share. The problem with AZ are its unions and the Italian government and frankly, there isn't a very compelling reason for any airline group (IAG or LH to acquire AZ) without applying massive job cuts and a much bigger downsizing than what is currently on the table. AZ has been repurposed a few times since its last profit, in 1997, and the results are always the same. A mess. The operational side of AZ is however much improved and its performance has been praised in that space. The problem is the network and the baggage that comes with the company.
 
hinckley
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 4:16 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
IMHO, the future of AZ, if it really has one . . .

It has one.

Many of us have said for sometime that despite the protestations from the Rome, the government will not let AZ die. They finally moved with very overt actions to confirm that fact. So what will the future for AZ be? Whatever the government wants it to be. Just as it always has been. There's just no sense ringing our hands about corruption, interference, unions, etc. any longer.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 4:40 pm

hinckley wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
IMHO, the future of AZ, if it really has one . . .

It has one.

Many of us have said for sometime that despite the protestations from the Rome, the government will not let AZ die. They finally moved with very overt actions to confirm that fact. So what will the future for AZ be? Whatever the government wants it to be. Just as it always has been. There's just no sense ringing our hands about corruption, interference, unions, etc. any longer.


AZ was nationalized because the COVID19 crisis provided the opportunity for that to happen and mitigate EU rules, which Italy and AZ have flouted for years anyway. As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one, but the state coffers can't be pilfered forever. The future for AZ will either be a leaner and a nimble competitor for the market it serves, or it will plod along until the state can no longer prop it up and it will be broken up piecemeal with Ryanair and LH picking through the carcass.
 
hinckley
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 5:33 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one, but the state coffers can't be pilfered forever.

Why?

AZ has been in existence for almost 75 years and made an annual operating profit in only one year during all that time. What is there to suggest that the next 75 years will be any different?
 
omochiwokudasai
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 6:13 pm

hinckley wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one, but the state coffers can't be pilfered forever.

Why?

AZ has been in existence for almost 75 years and made an annual operating profit in only one year during all that time. What is there to suggest that the next 75 years will be any different?


I am Italian and quite tired to pay this disaster of airline with my taxes.
As you just mentioned in your last post, in the entire Alitalia history the airline saw the light just once: when in 1998 AZ CEO Domenico Cempella reported only one year of profit since its foundation in 1946. From 1999 tu 2008 Alitalia was able to reach €3.7 billion net losses.
Politicians in Italy tend to fight about literally everything but there's only one topic that everyone agrees on: helping Alitalia by all means. Why? Too many "good" families involved and too many potential votes at stake.
In 45 year the Italian gov has wasted €12.6 billion , with the same amount of money it could have bought:
1) AFKLM (€1.87)
2) Norwegian (€0.1)
3) Lufthansa (€4.33)
4) SAS (€0.29)
5 Finnair (€0.45)
6) Turkish Airlines (€1.65)
TOTAL = €8,69 billion

Another myth to dispel, overused a lot by politicians and corrupted journalists (it's incredible how media in Italy do not talk about the AZ situation. I have read more about this matter here where I live [Spain] than in the Italian newspapers), is that "AZ is a strategic airline for the entire country". It is not. Absolutely not.
According to ENAC (the Italian National Civil Aviation Authority, so I am not making anything up. You can go check all the data on ENAC's website or I can share some graphs with you), the international market share of the aviation in Italy is divided as follows:
1) Ryanair 22,2%
2) Easyjet 12,6%
3) IAG Group 9,5%
4) Lufhtansa 8,7%
5) Alitalia 8,1%
And I could go on for a long time but I think these info are enough for the time being.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 6:48 pm

hinckley wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one, but the state coffers can't be pilfered forever.

Why?

AZ has been in existence for almost 75 years and made an annual operating profit in only one year during all that time. What is there to suggest that the next 75 years will be any different?


I don't think taxpayers and bondholders will be willing to shoulder this burden any longer. Alitalia was a symbol of Italy's postwar resurgence but it never adapted to the industry's changes, never plays by the rules, and has sucked the country dry for decades. At some point, that will end. Italy is in a very precarious financial state with public sector debts at very high and unsustainable levels. That's true in many places and not unique to Italy but the country risks becoming the next Greece circa 2010. Alitalia is an expensive toy that can easily be jettisoned.
 
hinckley
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 28, 2020 7:09 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
I don't think taxpayers and bondholders will be willing to shoulder this burden any longer. Alitalia was a symbol of Italy's postwar resurgence but it never adapted to the industry's changes, never plays by the rules, and has sucked the country dry for decades. At some point, that will end. Italy is in a very precarious financial state with public sector debts at very high and unsustainable levels. That's true in many places and not unique to Italy but the country risks becoming the next Greece circa 2010. Alitalia is an expensive toy that can easily be jettisoned.

Well yes, I agree. But then some people would counter your argument by stating:

Cointrin330 wrote:
As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one

:?
 
Nola
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 12:06 am

DL confirmed that the JV is over but extensive code share will remain:

“Alitalia SkyBonus Program Changes
Delta and Air France KLM’s trans-Atlantic joint venture immunity (ATI) with Alitalia expired on May 20, 2020.

Alitalia, a member of SkyTeam, remains an important airline partner for Delta and Air France-KLM and will continue to have an extensive codeshare relationship. The ongoing cooperation will provide convenient connections for our customers between key destinations across North America and Italy.

As of May 21, 2020, SkyBonus bookings made with Alitalia ticket stock (055) no longer qualify for SkyBonus Points earning. SkyBonus customers will continue to earn points when flying on Alitalia through bookings made with Delta ticket stock (006). SkyBonus redemptions are still eligible for Alitalia flights.”
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 8:55 am

I am admittedly not particularly familiar with the Milan market, but it does seem like there is decent long-haul demand. Would a carrier like Level (if they perhaps kept a small J cabin up front) find demand at MXP for long haul? It just seems like the Milan market is too wealthy and populous to have to connect in FRA for everything
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 10:52 am

Air Italy tried that and lost tremendous amounts of Qatari money.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 11:22 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
airhansa wrote:
MXP is a good place to situate a mid-haul and long-haul airline, save airports with better ground connections in North-Western Mainland Europe. But I don't consider AZ's image as recoverable in the current climate, and hence I think the best suitor would be a group such as IAG, which wants a presence in Central Europe (MXP is close enough IMO) and has a history of hoovering up poorly perceived airlines. I just wonder if the economic climate and bureaucracy of Italy might mean that MAD is a better place to situate such a low cost airline. But regardless, if there's an airline group that AZ should join, it's IAG.


MXP is a problem, in that AZ has an outsized presence at LIN, which is much closer to central Milan but can't be expanded or handle long haul. AZ refocused its hub operation around MXP in the 2000s and it didn't work...

How can you think mxp is now a problem for AZ when they left it 12 years ago? In this period AZ lost money every single year, including 503M€ operating loss last year, same loss they had when they were also based in mxp so I guess their problem was not mxp after all. It looks like the problems they had in 2000s are still there even without mxp, maybe this should suggest you something?
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 am

spannacomo wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
airhansa wrote:
MXP is a good place to situate a mid-haul and long-haul airline, save airports with better ground connections in North-Western Mainland Europe. But I don't consider AZ's image as recoverable in the current climate, and hence I think the best suitor would be a group such as IAG, which wants a presence in Central Europe (MXP is close enough IMO) and has a history of hoovering up poorly perceived airlines. I just wonder if the economic climate and bureaucracy of Italy might mean that MAD is a better place to situate such a low cost airline. But regardless, if there's an airline group that AZ should join, it's IAG.


MXP is a problem, in that AZ has an outsized presence at LIN, which is much closer to central Milan but can't be expanded or handle long haul. AZ refocused its hub operation around MXP in the 2000s and it didn't work...

How can you think mxp is now a problem for AZ when they left it 12 years ago? In this period AZ lost money every single year, including 503M€ operating loss last year, same loss they had when they were also based in mxp so I guess their problem was not mxp after all. It looks like the problems they had in 2000s are still there even without mxp, maybe this should suggest you something?


I don't really understand your point, but I think you answered your own question. All I was saying is that moving the hub to MXP does not really seem to be a solution for AZ's chronic financial problems. You answered your own question with "it looks like the problems they had in the 2000s are still there, even without MXP". AZ is a money pit with a lovely and iconic livery.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 12:06 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

MXP is a problem, in that AZ has an outsized presence at LIN, which is much closer to central Milan but can't be expanded or handle long haul. AZ refocused its hub operation around MXP in the 2000s and it didn't work...

How can you think mxp is now a problem for AZ when they left it 12 years ago? In this period AZ lost money every single year, including 503M€ operating loss last year, same loss they had when they were also based in mxp so I guess their problem was not mxp after all. It looks like the problems they had in 2000s are still there even without mxp, maybe this should suggest you something?


I don't really understand your point, but I think you answered your own question. All I was saying is that moving the hub to MXP does not really seem to be a solution for AZ's chronic financial problems. You answered your own question with "it looks like the problems they had in the 2000s are still there, even without MXP". AZ is a money pit with a lovely and iconic livery.

2 points:
1) you said MXP is a problem for AZ: how that when they left it 12 years ago? It's a nonsense
2) you say moving to MXP can't be a solution: how can you say that? In 2000's they had 2 hubs in FCO e MXP plus LIN as short range airport. In 2010s they had FCO as a hub plus LIN and nothing changed, which shows MXP was no problem. So how can you exclude that moving to MXP and leaving FCO can't possibly be a solution?
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 857
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Alitalia moving their hub from Rome to Malpensa and remaining a traditional network airline will work only if Linate airport is closed to any planes with more than about 80 seats - ie no longer permits 737, A320 or E190 family aircraft with no grandfather rights allowed - and there are no new slots. Furthermore, Alitalia will have to shut down their Rome hub and make Rome just a spoke from Milan (similiar to Iberia at Barcelona about 10 years ago). The unions have to accept a move-to-Milan-or-redundancy message. Finally, the Italian Govt will have to accept Rome not being a hub.

Anything else and you end up with an airline that is ok at some things but good at nothing and doomed to losses while Ryanair and Easyjet eat it alive. I expect Alitalia to be in the same situation in 2030 as it is now or bankrupt, with various interest groups preventing any substantial changes happening
 
spannacomo
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 1:38 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
.... Finally, the Italian Govt will have to accept Rome not being a hub.

they will never accept that, and this is the reason why I agree with the following:

davidjohnson6 wrote:
.... I expect Alitalia to be in the same situation in 2030 as it is now or bankrupt, with various interest groups preventing any substantial changes happening
 
spannacomo
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 1:48 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Air Italy tried that and lost tremendous amounts of Qatari money.

air italy were overloaded with staff coming from old meridiana thanks to italian magistrates voiding previous downsizing maneuvers. Staff thought themselves as OLB centered airline, not accepting MXP, same thing that happened with old AZ staff thinking themselves as FCO based, and obtaining that thanks to governement and unions.
No chance to successfully operate in these situation, but mind you, QR wanted to continue the business but as a minority shareholder could not decide, it was the actual owner who decided to close, because he was not patient for the results to improve and could not bear the trauma of cutting ties with sardinia where he has many investments.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 4790
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 2:16 pm

Linate is not closing. Neither the central government nor local ones are pushing the concept.

The opposite is actually happenings with major modernization project under way.

Linate due to its geographic proximity is the preferred airport for Milan for domestic/European traffic versus distant MXP.

Running a hub out of MXP proved not feasible when your customers wanted LIN and AZ had to maintain overlapping services competing against itself at the two airports.
mercure f-wtcc

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